Force India - Insolvent?

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UnlikeUday
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Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Ralf Bach, who writes for Sport Bild and TZ Munchen, claims that Force India as a team is insolvent:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/force-india-facing-uncertain-future-report

He has claimed that if the payments to important parts suppliers are not made in 4 weeks, Force India may miss the 1st two races!

It's also claimed that Force India is up for sale & Renault is interested in purchasing the team!

I hope this team doesn't end up being sold as it has grown rapidly over the years & has made progress that's worth pride.
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Herb »

I just posted this in the other FI thread - possibly more relevant here.

Force India are not going to the first test at all now:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/31024486

Will FI be this year's Lotus?

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by mac_d »

It seems like this is status quo for that team. I feel like we always hear about this kind of thing then everyone shuts up for a bit (I guess because someone got paid).

Hopefully this will be a repeat.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by huggybear »

I went back and had a look at their livery, and they've got a lot of sponsors that are part of VJM's own businesses. Sahara Force India, Kingfisher, Royal Challenge and the UB Group all have fairly large logos considering the other sponsors have to pay for them. That's never a good sign when a team is promoting mostly the owners' companies.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by dizlexik »

This just shows how flawed is F1. Team that has done very well in F1 cannot get enough funding. F1 needs serious reform, rather than just keep status quo.
eeee

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by JohnnyGuitar »

huggybear wrote:I went back and had a look at their livery, and they've got a lot of sponsors that are part of VJM's own businesses. Sahara Force India, Kingfisher, Royal Challenge and the UB Group all have fairly large logos considering the other sponsors have to pay for them. That's never a good sign when a team is promoting mostly the owners' companies.


While your point is valid, Sahara - which is FI's title sponsor - isn't a VJM company.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by lord byron »

Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Dash33 »

lord byron wrote:Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?


I guess because Force India is a well run, fully functioning team, an established mid order team that occasionally knocks on the door of the top teams with some great results and two top line drivers (one of whom has a lot of backing). That's a big achievement and worth paying for. Yes, they could buy Marussia or Caterham but would expect to shell out a lot of money and way too much time restructuring and building the team up.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Amon »

lord byron wrote:Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?


Huh, how long is it ago that Renault sold the Enstone team to Group Lotus? 2011 was their last official season as Renault F1 team.
Weird they would come back already after only 3 seasons of absence. And what has Force India more to offer than Enstone?
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by lord byron »

Amon wrote:
lord byron wrote:Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?


Huh, how long is it ago that Renault sold the Enstone team to Group Lotus? 2011 was their last official season as Renault F1 team.
Weird they would come back already after only 3 seasons of absence. And what has Force India more to offer than Enstone?

My post explained why,read it
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by racerrr »

While your point is valid, Sahara - which is FI's title sponsor - isn't a VJM company.


Actually it is valid. Sahara isn't owned by VJM, but it is owned by Subrata Roy who became co owner of Force India a couple of years ago. So, they aren't a paying sponsor either. In fact, Mr. Roy is sitting in an Indian prison right now over a financial issue between his company and it's investors. VJM got a one time payment from Roy to become a co owner, but that money was spent a long time ago. Sahara Force India isn't a title sponsor, it's the actual name of the team.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Lt. Drebin »

They made steady progress, and with each year they fared better. What system the current F1 is, that they can't have enough funds?
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by pubpokerplayer »

Bloody hope not! - Got a cracking set of drivers and probably my most anticipated inter team battle again this season!

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by pokerman »

The only positive i get from this is if Renault purchase the team, a manufacturer team i would think will be better than a struggling private team
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

How reliable is Ralf Bach from Sport Bild and TZ Munchen?

The team has some newly added sponsors such as NEC & Inter which wouldn't have been added or joined hands if the team was in a crisis.

Carlos Slim is so happy for Sergio Perez & the Mexican GP returning, so wouldn't he be gracious enough to save Perez's drive this year through his companies that are sponsors for Force India?

VJM is always enthusiastic when it comes to Force India so I don't know how easy would it be for him just to give in / up!
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by egnat69 »

Dash33 wrote:
lord byron wrote:Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?


I guess because Force India is a well run, fully functioning team, an established mid order team that occasionally knocks on the door of the top teams with some great results and two top line drivers (one of whom has a lot of backing). That's a big achievement and worth paying for. Yes, they could buy Marussia or Caterham but would expect to shell out a lot of money and way too much time restructuring and building the team up.

last season the team was up the order also because of their mercedes power unit... i don't think renault would be running that, would they? ... caterham instead was a renault customer, they still owe them money, so part of caterhams debt would be to themselves anyway - much like with marussia and ferrari...

however, renault just restructured the engine department and strenghtened their ties with RBR, they really don't have ressources to come back as a chassis manufacturer...
UnlikeUday wrote:How reliable is Ralf Bach from Sport Bild and TZ Munchen?

I don't really know Ralf Bach and I wouldn't like to judge him based on that, but Sport Bild is part of the "Bild", which i would describe as "Oprah on paper"....

Edit: The news didn't even make it into Sport Bild, it is just an article on his blog... He doesn't cite any sources at all for the numerous claims... And to be honest, FI has a current contract with Mercedes, the termination of which would cost quite a bit of additional money, added to the debts that would need to be paid off... I also wouldn't really understand why they would like to cut cords with RBR, as their power unit certainly has benefited from the Milton Keynes inputs...
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

egnat69 wrote:
Dash33 wrote:
lord byron wrote:Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?


I guess because Force India is a well run, fully functioning team, an established mid order team that occasionally knocks on the door of the top teams with some great results and two top line drivers (one of whom has a lot of backing). That's a big achievement and worth paying for. Yes, they could buy Marussia or Caterham but would expect to shell out a lot of money and way too much time restructuring and building the team up.

last season the team was up the order also because of their mercedes power unit... i don't think renault would be running that, would they? ... caterham instead was a renault customer, they still owe them money, so part of caterhams debt would be to themselves anyway - much like with marussia and ferrari...

however, renault just restructured the engine department and strenghtened their ties with RBR, they really don't have ressources to come back as a chassis manufacturer...
UnlikeUday wrote:How reliable is Ralf Bach from Sport Bild and TZ Munchen?

I don't really know Ralf Bach and I wouldn't like to judge him based on that, but Sport Bild is part of the "Bild", which i would describe as "Oprah on paper"....

Edit: The news didn't even make it into Sport Bild, it is just an article on his blog... He doesn't cite any sources at all for the numerous claims... And to be honest, FI has a current contract with Mercedes, the termination of which would cost quite a bit of additional money, added to the debts that would need to be paid off... I also wouldn't really understand why they would like to cut cords with RBR, as their power unit certainly has benefited from the Milton Keynes inputs...


And this news coming just before the pre-season testing starting doesn't make sense? If the team were to be for sale, they would have started the process at the end of the last season & also wouldn't have signed on new sponsors.
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by fwgx »

huggybear wrote:That's never a good sign when a team is promoting mostly the owners' companies.

*cough* Red Bull *cough* Torro Rosso *cough* :blush:

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by silkjet »

Could be posturing by VJ to get more money from Bernie. VJ is no stranger to high stakes business negotiating.

However, it would not surprise me Force India has financial difficulties. F1 funding does seem to need a re-tooling.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by paulsf1fix »

silkjet wrote:Could be posturing by VJ to get more money from Bernie. VJ is no stranger to high stakes business negotiating.

However, it would not surprise me Force India has financial difficulties. F1 funding does seem to need a re-tooling.


I agree with you,
There have always been rumours involving Force India and a lot of started to happen when King Fisher Airlines were not paying their bills, I know this sounds silly but I watch the BBC's Asian business report and it has been mentioned on there a few times that money is owed there. I've always liked F.I thanks to their Jordan roots, the last few years they have designed and built pretty good cars. I wonder how much Carlos Sim is ploughing into the team on behalf of Perez? and how much of the prize money is coming F.I are recieving from last year. I can only hope that the budget coming in from Mexico and prize money can keep the team (A) in the sport for now and the future and (B) I hope the team will have a competitve, rewarding season.

I read the Blid article and it mentioned that Pastor Maldonado's drive is in doubt because of PDVSA funding could be cut because of the falling oil prices... Oh dear, F1 2015 is on shakey ground this year.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Still not so sure about Force India being up for sale or being in trouble.

They had recently announced that their pace would only be more visible from Spain onwards due to a major upgrade for the car.

If the team were to be in dire straits then wouldn't Carlos Slim try buying the team in order to assure Perez that his career is secure?
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

The article below states that due to the absence of Sergey Sirotkin's sponsorship money, Force India have skipped the test at Jerez:

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-sergey-sirotkin-linked-to-the-force-india-absence-at-jerez?artid=174451

Excerpts from the article:

'19-year-old Sirotkin was once part of the so-called 'Russian rescue deal' at Sauber, another struggling midfield team.

"The contract with Sauber was annulled and Sirotkin was to become this year's reserve driver at Force India, including participation in the winter tests and seven Friday morning practice sessions.

"When the money did not come in time, Force India withdrew entirely from Jerez," Vasconcelos added.'

8O

The situation at Force India is surely very crazy!!
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Amon »

UnlikeUday wrote:The article below states that due to the absence of Sergey Sirotkin's sponsorship money, Force India have skipped the test at Jerez:

http://www.auto123.com/en/racing-news/f1-sergey-sirotkin-linked-to-the-force-india-absence-at-jerez?artid=174451

Excerpts from the article:

'19-year-old Sirotkin was once part of the so-called 'Russian rescue deal' at Sauber, another struggling midfield team.

"The contract with Sauber was annulled and Sirotkin was to become this year's reserve driver at Force India, including participation in the winter tests and seven Friday morning practice sessions.

"When the money did not come in time, Force India withdrew entirely from Jerez," Vasconcelos added.'

8O

The situation at Force India is surely very crazy!!


Yeah you can say that. They had a pretty competitive 2014 season even with a podium and now they would be in trouble?
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

On Facebook, I came across this:-

http://forceindiaf1.com/Home/News?pageid=FB21F717-799A-45AC-BDC5-A89BC342EA7E

A new partnership with Apsley Tailors for creating the team's clothing.

If they were in trouble or for sale, would any one or company join hands wit Force India, no matter how small the establishment?
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Balibari »

lord byron wrote:Renault could easily buy the remains of the marussia f1 or Caterham for chump change and and do a deal for less to no debt then re-brand next year with a new chassis so why buy a team where the debt cant go away ?

But nobody wants the remnants of a failed team with no base or equipment. Or the remnants of a failed team with no impending FOM money and an inevitable series of legal disputes over ownership. It doesn't matter if they're free. The investment required to get them up to midfield level would be enormous, and they'd be incurring the same sort of running costs as the midfield teams but without any FOM money or pre-existing partners.
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Sutton »

Got a bad feeling we could be lining up at Melbourne with 16 cars :(

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

Sutton wrote:Got a bad feeling we could be lining up at Melbourne with 16 cars :(


To add to the agony, 2 good drivers could lose out on this season!
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by mikeyg123 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Sutton wrote:Got a bad feeling we could be lining up at Melbourne with 16 cars :(


To add to the agony, 2 good drivers could lose out on this season!


FI are my favorite team and I really hope that the powers that B do not let us get to Melbourne with just the 16 cars on the grid. A field that small would start to look farcical.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

Now as horrible as the whole Marussia/Caterham and even HRT debacle was to see, it kind of made sense, they were teams that were never really going anywhere, doomed to sit at the back.

Force India ahouldnt be struggling so much in the back of a good season.

Meanwhile Sauber's main goal seems to be solely to survive by giving the driver with the biggest backer a drive.

It's sad really that the latter appears to have the best strategy. We hardly needed yet another wake up call that something on the financial side has to change, but we've got one.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by j man »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:Now as horrible as the whole Marussia/Caterham and even HRT debacle was to see, it kind of made sense, they were teams that were never really going anywhere, doomed to sit at the back.

Force India ahouldnt be struggling so much in the back of a good season.

Meanwhile Sauber's main goal seems to be solely to survive by giving the driver with the biggest backer a drive.

It's sad really that the latter appears to have the best strategy. We hardly needed yet another wake up call that something on the financial side has to change, but we've got one.

Agree, it's all very worrying. Unfortunately Bernie, CVC and the top teams continue to deny that there is even a problem.

In the current setup it is impossible for an F1 team outside the top 4 or so to be run as a sustainable business. Hence why everyone below McLaren in last year's constructors table is either seriously struggling or gone bust already (with the exception of Toro Rosso who are propped up by RBR). If you ask me some pretty serious action needs to be taken this year or it's all going down the tubes. As it is I think an 18 car grid is a bit of a farce.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by OutKast »

So if money is such an issue? What is Carlos Slim doing behind the scenes?

My thing is that considering all of the sponsors Perez and Gutierrez brought with them, I have a feeling Slim is not pumping that much money in. It might be a similar situation to like what "Virgin" was for Marussia and then Brawn GP, in just the car being a billboard and nothing more. We all have known about Vjay's business ventures, but there is a hell of a lot more fire than smoke because I think that the "Russian" sponsors want Sirotkin to be a driver on contract and in a driver seat for money to really come in. I'm pretty sure they do not want to help a team with finances unless that young man is in a seat because he was supposed to drive for Sauber and the whole deal fell through.

Now, we see FI trying to pick up the pieces. Yet they are already in financial constraints and I guess the Mexican money is not enough get them out of the already growing hole. A lot of questions need to be answered and hopefully it will be soon or otherwise Force India is done.
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by funkymonkey »

OutKast wrote:So if money is such an issue? What is Carlos Slim doing behind the scenes?

My thing is that considering all of the sponsors Perez and Gutierrez brought with them, I have a feeling Slim is not pumping that much money in. It might be a similar situation to like what "Virgin" was for Marussia and then Brawn GP, in just the car being a billboard and nothing more. We all have known about Vjay's business ventures, but there is a hell of a lot more fire than smoke because I think that the "Russian" sponsors want Sirotkin to be a driver on contract and in a driver seat for money to really come in. I'm pretty sure they do not want to help a team with finances unless that young man is in a seat because he was supposed to drive for Sauber and the whole deal fell through.

Now, we see FI trying to pick up the pieces. Yet they are already in financial constraints and I guess the Mexican money is not enough get them out of the already growing hole. A lot of questions need to be answered and hopefully it will be soon or otherwise Force India is done.


The way F1 is structured right now, even 10 odd millions is just small % of team budgets. So "not much" money can be significant, but still not much to help team like FI participate in all tests.

I dont think FI is in immediate trouble for this year. They should be on the grid come Australia. But I would be worried for the future of the team. Loss of Indian GP is hurting them as well. That limits the Indian sponsors that are willing to invest with the team.

Lets see. VJM is not in total control of his breweries as well. So it is not completely self sponsored car at the moment. There are other owners and investors which control much of UB group. My main worry is ability of teams like FI to continue in F1 in the near future. Not worried about immediate future, but 1-2 years down the line, owners might just decide to call it quits and that will be a sad day in F1. This is the only team in last 7-8 years who while working on very small budget has been making significant strides. I would hate to see them go.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by OutKast »

funkymonkey wrote:
OutKast wrote:So if money is such an issue? What is Carlos Slim doing behind the scenes?

My thing is that considering all of the sponsors Perez and Gutierrez brought with them, I have a feeling Slim is not pumping that much money in. It might be a similar situation to like what "Virgin" was for Marussia and then Brawn GP, in just the car being a billboard and nothing more. We all have known about Vjay's business ventures, but there is a hell of a lot more fire than smoke because I think that the "Russian" sponsors want Sirotkin to be a driver on contract and in a driver seat for money to really come in. I'm pretty sure they do not want to help a team with finances unless that young man is in a seat because he was supposed to drive for Sauber and the whole deal fell through.

Now, we see FI trying to pick up the pieces. Yet they are already in financial constraints and I guess the Mexican money is not enough get them out of the already growing hole. A lot of questions need to be answered and hopefully it will be soon or otherwise Force India is done.


The way F1 is structured right now, even 10 odd millions is just small % of team budgets. So "not much" money can be significant, but still not much to help team like FI participate in all tests.

I don't think FI is in immediate trouble for this year. They should be on the grid come Australia. But I would be worried for the future of the team. Loss of Indian GP is hurting them as well. That limits the Indian sponsors that are willing to invest with the team.

Lets see. VJM is not in total control of his breweries as well. So it is not completely self sponsored car at the moment. There are other owners and investors which control much of UB group. My main worry is ability of teams like FI to continue in F1 in the near future. Not worried about immediate future, but 1-2 years down the line, owners might just decide to call it quits and that will be a sad day in F1. This is the only team in last 7-8 years who while working on very small budget has been making significant strides. I would hate to see them go.


Did the Indian GP make that much of a difference for VJ? If I'm not mistakened, HRT received more sponsorship if not for only one race than FI, but we all know the Indian population love Karthikeyan. If sponsors like TATA and Speed, which are two HUGE representatives of India, are still attached to Karthikeyan. Why do they not reach out to VJ to help them? I guess it is because of the ragged relationship Narain and Vijay have, but Vijay is not the type to hire a driver without some type of credentials, not because of nationality.

I just hope that Force India can get some much needed funding because I would hate to see them leave the field because watching this team grow in the past six years has been great to see. To evolve from the bits of Jordan/Midland/Spyker to see it leave for good would be a sad day for F1 fans, but I think VJ will sell to another owner if he thinks he cannot continue on. This is an interesting situation, but I hope things are ironed out.
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by RaggedMan »

Well if India based, and F1 communications partner, Tata decides to buy them then we could see Tata owned Jaguar back on the grid.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Nosebuckle »

I don't think we'll have to worry about FI not making the grid this season, mostly because I can't imagine some backer of the Mexican GP will allow the race to go off without Perez taking the grid. I think the difference in the number of people showing up to the track at some point in the weekend because of Perez being a driver would easily justify the cost of keeping the team afloat.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by racerrr »

Nosebuckle wrote:I don't think we'll have to worry about FI not making the grid this season, mostly because I can't imagine some backer of the Mexican GP will allow the race to go off without Perez taking the grid. I think the difference in the number of people showing up to the track at some point in the weekend because of Perez being a driver would easily justify the cost of keeping the team afloat.



I'm going to respectfully disagree with you on that point. Considering the going rate to promote an F1 GP these days is around 25 million, I can't see any promoter stepping up to keep Force India afloat just for Perez to race. If it were the first or second race on the schedule, then maybe, but the race is towards the end of the schedule. For a promoter to be pumping money into a team for that long would be way worse of a financial disaster than if they had a half filled race in Mexico City.

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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by racerrr »

I will also add that from the article I read, this has been building over a period of years. There have been rumors all over the paddock for the last 3 or 4 years that Force India was late or wasn't paying it's supplier's bills. The suppliers have been very patient, but now they are starting to put their collective foot down. Vijay Mallia is so far in debt over the bankruptcy of his King Fisher Airline, that he can't leave India without submitting detailed documentation of where he's going and what he will be doing to Indian authorities a minimum of 48 hours in advance. His co owner and partner Subata Roy is in jail concerning financial issues with his Sahara company. You can believe they will make the grid all you want (and they may very well make the grid), but where there's smoke there's fire. I can't help but believe it's a matter time before the Force Inda "house of cards" comes crumbling down. That is, if it's not sold first. And if there's massive debt, I dont' know why anyone would want to take that on.

P.S: They stuck a new nose on an old car instead of launching the 2015 car this week. And now they are missing the first test. That doesn't look good no matter how you want to spin it.

CaptainRicky
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by CaptainRicky »

And now they're going to miss Melbourne. Just great.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/force-india-may-miss-melbourne-opener-report

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Laura23
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by Laura23 »

CaptainRicky wrote:And now they're going to miss Melbourne. Just great.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/force-india-may-miss-melbourne-opener-report


No, they MAY miss Melbourne according to the word of one man who claims they haven't got the chassis from the supplier yet. There's still plent of time to resolve that issue if it is true.

Bernie knows F1 needs a full grid in Oz, I can see him quietly stepped by in to at least ensure the team makes the flyaways, after all he's done it before for both Minardi and Caterham.
1994 1995 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 Get well soon Schumi.

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UnlikeUday
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Re: Force India - Insolvent?

Post by UnlikeUday »

CaptainRicky wrote:And now they're going to miss Melbourne. Just great.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/force-india-may-miss-melbourne-opener-report


Very sad if this is true.

Did You read the reason why?

They haven't received the monocoque for the VJM08 car!!!! 8O

Also read a recent interview of Nico Hulkenberg (Clicking on next page will sow an interview by Sergio Perez as well):

http://forceindiaf1.com/Home/News?pageNumber=1

Are the interviews just being given to hide the sheer dark future of the team?
Feel The Fourth

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