FIA F1 Superlicence system

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mds
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FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mds »

The FIA have updated the sporting code in order to incorporate new rules for obtaining a superlicence.
And while the idea in itself is OK, the execution is poor and the level of favoritism is beyond stupid.

A link: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/f ... ts-system/

The system seems drawn up in a few categories:
1) FIA-mandated series are overvalued (non-existing F2, F3 euro)
2) FIA-linked series are in the mid (GP2, GP3)
3) Other series are undervalued (notably Renault racing series)

How else can one explain the fact that Formula Renault 3.5 is worth LESS than the F3 Euro championship? That FR2.0 is valued less than national F3 and even F4 series?

Being F3 Euro champion is enough to get a superlicence. In contrast, winning FR2.0 and FR3.5 on the bounce won't net you enough points for F1!

This is a major blow for the Renault racing series. Every driver will now prefer taking part in F3 and/or GP3, followed by GP2. Quality of the field will suffer immensely.

But not only that, this is also a hard situation for Red Bull's young driver programme. They can't bank on their normal route of FR2.0 > FR3.5, they will have to pass through either GP3 and/or GP2. The route via FR3.5 seems useless and that means they will have to leave their engine partner in the cold with their racing series.


Any thoughts? Isn't this incredible?
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mds »

To add a point in case: Robin Frijns, one of the most promising junior drivers ever to be in single seaters, would NOT qualify for a superlicence in this system despite winning Formula BMW, FR2.0 and FR3.5 back to back.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by TakumaSatoforthewin »

Its ludicrous. Playing politics with junior single seaters is not the way to go at all, 3.5's alumni of the last 4/5 seasons has been much more impressive as that of GP2. This could seriously mess some career's around.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mikeyg123 »

Its abysmal. They have taken a good idea and politicized it to the point where it does not make any sense.

Most of the drivers on the grid would fail to meet the points tariff.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Zoue »

It just reinforces the points I made in the engine thread. The FIA seem very amateurish in how they go about creating the rules these days. Often they are very poorly thought out, with little thought for any potential negative consequences, and even more poorly executed.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by pokerman »

You have to believe that there is some political bias to the system because a lot of it makes no sense
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by dizlexik »

The idea seems neat, but the points distribution makes absolutely no sense. I got a feeling in practice we still will see a lot of conditional licenses. Most of F1 teams needs money and drivers bring a lot of money with them. The issue is that they aren't always the best in junior series.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by TheOtherGuy »

And the FIA are absolutely stupid...


But hey, y'all asked for supelicence reforms because Verstappen is going to be "so dangerous" in an F1 car.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by GPG »

The idea behind the system isn't that bad actually; It will give more value to good junior careers and may lower the number of average pay-drivers in Formula 1. The execution is poor however, the system is heavily skewed towards GP2, GP3 and the non-existent Formula 2 championship.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by pokerman »

GPG wrote:The idea behind the system isn't that bad actually; It will give more value to good junior careers and may lower the number of average pay-drivers in Formula 1. The execution is poor however, the system is heavily skewed towards GP2, GP3 and the non-existent Formula 2 championship.

GP2 is the top junior class so you confuse me there :?
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by AngusWolfe »

It makes complete sense for the FIA though. Now all the best drivers and their sponsors will be lining up outside their door, making the FIA series stronger, bringing in more attention and money. It's the FIA monopolising. It's terrible news for FR and probably racing in general, but it's a good business move from the FIA. Bästards.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by RaggedMan »

pokerman wrote:
GPG wrote:The idea behind the system isn't that bad actually; It will give more value to good junior careers and may lower the number of average pay-drivers in Formula 1. The execution is poor however, the system is heavily skewed towards GP2, GP3 and the non-existent Formula 2 championship.

GP2 is the top junior class so you confuse me there :?

For the last several years the quality of the drivers at the top of FR3.5 has been on par with those at the top of GP2 yet this system puts FR3.5 on par with GP3 and winning FR2.0 equal to 6th in GP3.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Warnzee »

The FIA have been trying to reorganise the junior formulae for quite a while now. Gerhard Berger was appointed in a head of development role a few years back, but recently left it.
I remember him saying that the junior 'ladder' is too messy, and it's difficult for teams' to know who is really the best driver as they aren't competing against each other.

The 'ladder' used to be pretty simple - Formula Ford - Formula 3 - Formula 3000 - Formula 1 (with various national and International series') . These were all, I think, FIA sanctioned and were all geared towards preparing drivers for the next step in their careers. At least that's how I perceived it.
Nowadays there are dozens of categories, with car performance levels that vary drastically.

It looks like the new system could be a way of promoting certain series', so that drivers/teams are forced to enter them if they want to further their careers along the FIA-approved path into F1.
While that is unfair to teams, drivers, sponsors and series organisers, I expect that in the board room it is seen as a step towards clarifying the 'ladder'.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mikeyg123 »

Ok so I have tried to work out all the drivers 26 or under who fulfill the criteria and have not already got a super licence.

Help me out if I have missed someone.

I am assuming they are not counting results from the defunct F2 series?

Jolyon Palmer
Stoffel Vandoorne
Mitch Evans
Fabio Leimer
Luis Razia
James Calado
Esteban Ocan
Tom Blomqvist
Raffaele Marciellio
Alex Lynn
Felix Rosenqvist
Daniel Juncadella
Pascal Wehrlein
Dean Stoneman
Facu Regallia
Daniel Abt
Antonio Felix Da Costa
Robert Wickens

Frijns is a grey area. It depends if they count formula BMW as a national F3 series.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by RunningMan »

Someone on Reddit posted this

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Of the 9 race winner we have going into 2015, we lose 6. Of the 5 WDC, we lose 4.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by RunningMan »

It's as if F1 has put a lock on it's door, and is only giving it's own series the key. It's smart from their POV, but I don't see what good it does long term for F1. All it does is place more competition for spaces in "FIA approved" racing series, meaning less opportunity for talent to get through.

Also after reading through some of the articles, it seems that under these new rules, the most successful driver in the history of F1, may not have obtained a super-license to compete in F1 for his comeback. Also, it notably stops Susie Wolff from getting a super-license.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mds »

mikeyg123 wrote:Pascal Wehrlein
Dean Stoneman
Facu Regallia
Daniel Abt
Robert Wickens


Can you explain how all of these qualify? I don't think they do?
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mds »

RunningMan wrote:Also after reading through some of the articles, it seems that under these new rules, the most successful driver in the history of F1, may not have obtained a super-license to compete in F1 for his comeback. Also, it notably stops Susie Wolff from getting a super-license.


It would rule out Kubica for a return if he would be fit again (which was unlikely to begin with). It would have prevented him of debuting as well.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by RunningMan »

mds wrote:
RunningMan wrote:Also after reading through some of the articles, it seems that under these new rules, the most successful driver in the history of F1, may not have obtained a super-license to compete in F1 for his comeback. Also, it notably stops Susie Wolff from getting a super-license.


It would rule out Kubica for a return if he would be fit again (which was unlikely to begin with). It would have prevented him of debuting as well.


and Barrichello (I've probably botched the hell out of his name)

I have a feeling the FIA will rewrite this rule pretty soon. It's very poorly worded atm even for the FIA standards.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Zoue »

RunningMan wrote:
mds wrote:
RunningMan wrote:Also after reading through some of the articles, it seems that under these new rules, the most successful driver in the history of F1, may not have obtained a super-license to compete in F1 for his comeback. Also, it notably stops Susie Wolff from getting a super-license.


It would rule out Kubica for a return if he would be fit again (which was unlikely to begin with). It would have prevented him of debuting as well.


and Barrichello (I've probably botched the hell out of his name)

I have a feeling the FIA will rewrite this rule pretty soon. It's very poorly worded atm even for the FIA standards.

How long is a super licence valid for, though? Does it have to be renewed every year, or once it's granted does it last for x years? It does seem strange that this would effectively prevent any driver from making a comeback and makes a sabbatical a dangerous choice. Would Kimi have qualified?

Ricciardo wouldn't have qualified under these rules:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/new-superlicence-rules-barred-ten-drivers-last-five-years/

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mds »

Zoue wrote:
RunningMan wrote:
mds wrote:
RunningMan wrote:Also after reading through some of the articles, it seems that under these new rules, the most successful driver in the history of F1, may not have obtained a super-license to compete in F1 for his comeback. Also, it notably stops Susie Wolff from getting a super-license.


It would rule out Kubica for a return if he would be fit again (which was unlikely to begin with). It would have prevented him of debuting as well.


and Barrichello (I've probably botched the hell out of his name)

I have a feeling the FIA will rewrite this rule pretty soon. It's very poorly worded atm even for the FIA standards.

How long is a super licence valid for, though? Does it have to be renewed every year, or once it's granted does it last for x years? It does seem strange that this would effectively prevent any driver from making a comeback and makes a sabbatical a dangerous choice. Would Kimi have qualified?

Ricciardo wouldn't have qualified under these rules:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/new-superlicence-rules-barred-ten-drivers-last-five-years/


Kimi wouldn't have debuted. He won national FR2.0, which isn't even eligible for points.
Former F1 drivers are OK if they have raced 5 races in the previous year or 15 in the previous 3. Schumacher would not have qualified for an SL in 2010. Raikkonen would have in 2012.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by wolfticket »

The FIA seemingly have a stupid idea that compromises the integrity of the sport quota to fulfil every season.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by RunningMan »

mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:How long is a super licence valid for, though? Does it have to be renewed every year, or once it's granted does it last for x years? It does seem strange that this would effectively prevent any driver from making a comeback and makes a sabbatical a dangerous choice. Would Kimi have qualified?

Ricciardo wouldn't have qualified under these rules:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/new-superlicence-rules-barred-ten-drivers-last-five-years/


Kimi wouldn't have debuted. He won national FR2.0, which isn't even eligible for points.
Former F1 drivers are OK if they have raced 5 races in the previous year or 15 in the previous 3. Schumacher would not have qualified for an SL in 2010. Raikkonen would have in 2012.


Yup :thumbup:
Also, it has to be renewed every year and is valid for one year only. Although it appears the FIA have left something in their rules to give them the ability to grant superlicenses to canditates who don't fulfill the points criteria
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/14.12.24_ANNEXE%20L%202015%20-publi%C3%A9%20le%2024%20d%C3%A9cembre%202014.pdf

Section 5 is the relevant part. Specifically 5.1.2

be judged by the FIA to have consistently demonstrated outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars, but with no opportunity to qualify under any of c) to e) above. In this case the F1 team concerned must show that the applicant has driven at least 300 km in a current Formula One car consistently at racing speeds, over a maximum period of 2 days, completed not more than 90 days prior to the application and certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this give the FIA the ability to grant people like Schumacher in 2010 SL's?
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mikeyg123 »

mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Pascal Wehrlein
Dean Stoneman
Facu Regallia
Daniel Abt
Robert Wickens


Can you explain how all of these qualify? I don't think they do?


Wehrlein has 40 points from a 2nd and a 4th at F3 Euro series

Stoneman you are right about he falls short by 5 points although the FIA could perhaps give him something for his F2 title. I think the FIA will probably fly lose with defunct series and probably give people some wiggle room.

Regallia has 40 points for the exact same reason as Wehrlein

Abt finished 2nd in GP2 and 2nd in national F3

And Wickens won GP3 and Formula Renault 3.5.


Although now I have just seen that drivers must accumulate these points in the three years preceding an application. Which is totally bannanas, unless you can apply for a super licence even if you will not be racing in F1 for the coming season.

I don't know it all just seems like another disaster to me.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mikeyg123 »

RunningMan wrote:
mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:How long is a super licence valid for, though? Does it have to be renewed every year, or once it's granted does it last for x years? It does seem strange that this would effectively prevent any driver from making a comeback and makes a sabbatical a dangerous choice. Would Kimi have qualified?

Ricciardo wouldn't have qualified under these rules:

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/06/new-superlicence-rules-barred-ten-drivers-last-five-years/


Kimi wouldn't have debuted. He won national FR2.0, which isn't even eligible for points.
Former F1 drivers are OK if they have raced 5 races in the previous year or 15 in the previous 3. Schumacher would not have qualified for an SL in 2010. Raikkonen would have in 2012.


Yup :thumbup:
Also, it has to be renewed every year and is valid for one year only. Although it appears the FIA have left something in their rules to give them the ability to grant superlicenses to canditates who don't fulfill the points criteria
http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/file/14.12.24_ANNEXE%20L%202015%20-publi%C3%A9%20le%2024%20d%C3%A9cembre%202014.pdf

Section 5 is the relevant part. Specifically 5.1.2

be judged by the FIA to have consistently demonstrated outstanding ability in single-seater formula cars, but with no opportunity to qualify under any of c) to e) above. In this case the F1 team concerned must show that the applicant has driven at least 300 km in a current Formula One car consistently at racing speeds, over a maximum period of 2 days, completed not more than 90 days prior to the application and certified by the ASN of the country in which the test took place


Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this give the FIA the ability to grant people like Schumacher in 2010 SL's?


It gives the FIA another tool to use for political reasons.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mds »

mikeyg123 wrote:Wehrlein has 40 points from a 2nd and a 4th at F3 Euro series

Stoneman you are right about he falls short by 5 points although the FIA could perhaps give him something for his F2 title. I think the FIA will probably fly lose with defunct series and probably give people some wiggle room.

Regallia has 40 points for the exact same reason as Wehrlein

Abt finished 2nd in GP2 and 2nd in national F3

And Wickens won GP3 and Formula Renault 3.5.


OK, Wehrlein you have a point although I'm not sure whether the partly-overlapping F3 Euroseries and the European F3 would count separately.
Stoneman falls short by 20 points (second in GP3 2014 is the only that counts as far as I see).
Regalia has 22 points - European F3 Open counts as a national series.
Abt was second in GP3, so only 20 points.
And Wickens was too long ago, as you have already noticed.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mikeyg123 »

mds wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:Wehrlein has 40 points from a 2nd and a 4th at F3 Euro series

Stoneman you are right about he falls short by 5 points although the FIA could perhaps give him something for his F2 title. I think the FIA will probably fly lose with defunct series and probably give people some wiggle room.

Regallia has 40 points for the exact same reason as Wehrlein

Abt finished 2nd in GP2 and 2nd in national F3

And Wickens won GP3 and Formula Renault 3.5.


OK, Wehrlein you have a point although I'm not sure whether the partly-overlapping F3 Euroseries and the European F3 would count separately.
Stoneman falls short by 20 points (second in GP3 2014 is the only that counts as far as I see).
Regalia has 22 points - European F3 Open counts as a national series.
Abt was second in GP3, so only 20 points.
And Wickens was too long ago, as you have already noticed.


To be honest if you look through my list a few will fail due to time by the end of this season.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by bourbon19 »

It seems unfair at first glance, but what the FIA may be looking for is drivers progressing through the various series in an orderly fashion - i.e., drivers go from karts to 5 point series, then to 10 point series, then to 30 point series and finally into the higher point series. That way you ensure a certain level of experience where even the greatest talent can gain. Jumping series, say from 10 to 60 would occur only among the most talented and they would still have to finish in a stellar fashion to move on. So it could work assuming it doesn't play out in a hodgepodge manner.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Zoue »

the question I have is what problem are they intending to address with this?

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by futureshock999 »

Zoue wrote:the question I have is what problem are they intending to address with this?


1) Filtering out unskilled pay drivers, in a way that is transparent and fair to everyone

2) With the newer F1 cars being less of a physical challenge to drive, they want to ensure that a driver's maturity and racing qualifications are up to the task of actually getting behind the wheel of an F1 car, reliably and with good performance. The sheer difficulty of physically driving an F1 car used to do that, but the newer cars are getting easier to drive physically, so another way of preventing drivers that may be quick but lacking in other areas from starting too early. Remember, one way to be quick is to never care about the consequences...you can do that for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you - with potentially deadly affects on other drivers or spectators.

These rules make total sense to me, and I applaud them, even the weighting of the series makes sense (being done on how much like F1 the series is, the tracks they use, and the talent pool depth within that series).

I think the FIA did a good job on these.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by AngusWolfe »

Anyone know how many points Formula E would give you under this new system? I understand it's more of an alternative than a junior series, but it must count for something, as they have a field that ranks from F1 level to a few at the back that are GP3.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mmi16 »

The FIA again takes a hammer to their male appendage!
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by mmi16 »

AngusWolfe wrote:Anyone know how many points Formula E would give you under this new system? I understand it's more of an alternative than a junior series, but it must count for something, as they have a field that ranks from F1 level to a few at the back that are GP3.

FE, from what I have seen of it, should subtract points from those earned elsewhere.
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by minchy »

mmi16 wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:Anyone know how many points Formula E would give you under this new system? I understand it's more of an alternative than a junior series, but it must count for something, as they have a field that ranks from F1 level to a few at the back that are GP3.

FE, from what I have seen of it, should subtract points from those earned elsewhere.

FE from what I've seen of it is largely drivers who already have a super license!
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Zoue »

futureshock999 wrote:
Zoue wrote:the question I have is what problem are they intending to address with this?


1) Filtering out unskilled pay drivers, in a way that is transparent and fair to everyone

2) With the newer F1 cars being less of a physical challenge to drive, they want to ensure that a driver's maturity and racing qualifications are up to the task of actually getting behind the wheel of an F1 car, reliably and with good performance. The sheer difficulty of physically driving an F1 car used to do that, but the newer cars are getting easier to drive physically, so another way of preventing drivers that may be quick but lacking in other areas from starting too early. Remember, one way to be quick is to never care about the consequences...you can do that for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you - with potentially deadly affects on other drivers or spectators.

These rules make total sense to me, and I applaud them, even the weighting of the series makes sense (being done on how much like F1 the series is, the tracks they use, and the talent pool depth within that series).

I think the FIA did a good job on these.

I meant in the sense what was the catalyst for it? Looking back over the years it would have stopped Paul DiResta and Charles Pic, but were they ever really an issue? OTOH it would also have prevented Ricciardo from starting when he did, which in retrospect would have left F1 poorer.

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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by sultanofhyd »

Zoue wrote:
futureshock999 wrote:
Zoue wrote:the question I have is what problem are they intending to address with this?


1) Filtering out unskilled pay drivers, in a way that is transparent and fair to everyone

2) With the newer F1 cars being less of a physical challenge to drive, they want to ensure that a driver's maturity and racing qualifications are up to the task of actually getting behind the wheel of an F1 car, reliably and with good performance. The sheer difficulty of physically driving an F1 car used to do that, but the newer cars are getting easier to drive physically, so another way of preventing drivers that may be quick but lacking in other areas from starting too early. Remember, one way to be quick is to never care about the consequences...you can do that for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you - with potentially deadly affects on other drivers or spectators.

These rules make total sense to me, and I applaud them, even the weighting of the series makes sense (being done on how much like F1 the series is, the tracks they use, and the talent pool depth within that series).

I think the FIA did a good job on these.

I meant in the sense what was the catalyst for it? Looking back over the years it would have stopped Paul DiResta and Charles Pic, but were they ever really an issue? OTOH it would also have prevented Ricciardo from starting when he did, which in retrospect would have left F1 poorer.


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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Zoue »

sultanofhyd wrote:
Zoue wrote:
futureshock999 wrote:
Zoue wrote:the question I have is what problem are they intending to address with this?


1) Filtering out unskilled pay drivers, in a way that is transparent and fair to everyone

2) With the newer F1 cars being less of a physical challenge to drive, they want to ensure that a driver's maturity and racing qualifications are up to the task of actually getting behind the wheel of an F1 car, reliably and with good performance. The sheer difficulty of physically driving an F1 car used to do that, but the newer cars are getting easier to drive physically, so another way of preventing drivers that may be quick but lacking in other areas from starting too early. Remember, one way to be quick is to never care about the consequences...you can do that for a while, but eventually it will catch up to you - with potentially deadly affects on other drivers or spectators.

These rules make total sense to me, and I applaud them, even the weighting of the series makes sense (being done on how much like F1 the series is, the tracks they use, and the talent pool depth within that series).

I think the FIA did a good job on these.

I meant in the sense what was the catalyst for it? Looking back over the years it would have stopped Paul DiResta and Charles Pic, but were they ever really an issue? OTOH it would also have prevented Ricciardo from starting when he did, which in retrospect would have left F1 poorer.


Verstappen

they brought out a whole new set of rules just because of Verstappen? Is he even a pay driver?

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Blackhander
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by Blackhander »

Nope not a pay driver at all. Verstappen just ruffled a few feathers because of his age and comparative lack of experience. The rules seem more focused on ensuring a minimum number of years in single seat cars than ensuring a minimum level of ability.

I also think rather than preventing pay drivers it might make the situation much much worst. Especially given to how the series are weighted. There will be so much demand for a spot in GP3 and GP2 that only those drivers with the most sponsor backing will get a seat, and it seems that sponsor backing and driver talent rarely correlate. The drivers with the most points will be the ones who bring the most money to their GP teams, and in a few years the only drivers eligible for super licences may well be the pay drivers they are supposed to be trying to keep out.
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AngusWolfe
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by AngusWolfe »

If Verstappen's experience was the issue, why not introduce it after Raikkonen ruffled feathers? I still think it's the FIA monopolising and using Verstappen as an excuse. I don't think the kid is ready either, but why make the FR series practically worthless? Unless they don't like the Red Bull Driver Program as a whole. Renault can't be happy about this, and considering Red Bull have Renault works deals, it gives Christian Horner another excuse to moan (surprised he hasn't started already).
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minchy
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Re: FIA F1 Superlicence system

Post by minchy »

AngusWolfe wrote:If Verstappen's experience was the issue, why not introduce it after Raikkonen ruffled feathers? I still think it's the FIA monopolising and using Verstappen as an excuse. I don't think the kid is ready either, but why make the FR series practically worthless? Unless they don't like the Red Bull Driver Program as a whole. Renault can't be happy about this, and considering Red Bull have Renault works deals, it gives Christian Horner another excuse to moan (surprised he hasn't started already).

The way I see it, they want to make FR not worth as much toward a super licence in order to make their own series of GP3 and GP2 higher profile with potentially better drivers and less pay drivers. It may also be because more f1 viewers will watch GP2&3 and are less likely to also watch FR which would possibly make new drivers known to them and they can watch them progress.

I do the whole thing is to promote their own series rather to knock down others.
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