planetf1.com

Eat a dinosaur.

A.J. wrote:

pokerman wrote:

A.J. wrote:

SR1 wrote:

HamsterTime wrote:I think it's important to note that nearly all of Hamilton's WDC's have come in the turbo-hybrid era.

In this era all you really have to do to win the WDC is beat the guy in the other Merc.

How many of the current grid would beat Bottas in the same car? 40-70% of them? Are they All-Time Greats as well?

Did you have your head buried in the sand during 2017 & 2018? Ferrari had title challenging cars in both these years. Particularly 2018, the Ferrari car was a match for the Merc, arguably better.

The 2017 Merc was much better than the Ferrari, all things (including reliability) taken into account. 2018 was as much about HAM not making mistakes as it was about VET throwing it away (I distinctly remember HAM being salty at Silverstone after getting beaten, suggesting that Raikkonen had deliberately crashed into him - nothing but pressure - who knows how it would have been if VET had not bottled it up) - I would consider the cars to be roughly equal, with Merc having a slight edge overall.

I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda)

A bit of a history lesson, in 2017 Vettel was only 3 points behind Hamilton in the WDC after 13 races, the next race he was on pole with Hamilton only 5th, Vettel then crashed out 3 cars at the start gifting Hamilton the win, from there Hamilton never looked back.

In 2018 Vettel was leading the WDC by 8 points after 10 races, he was then leading comfortably in Germany before he crashed out again gifting Hamilton the win, after that Hamilton never lost the lead in the WDC.

This is Hamilton only having his teammate to beat whilst giving a 4xWDC seemingly little credibility?

Your "history lesson" would make a lot more sense if you actually respond to what people are saying instead of parroting the same ideas in virtually every thread.

Maybe this lesson will be of benefit: https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/reading

You mean like trying to comprehend your post that states that in the last 2 years Hamilton only had his teammate to beat, this even despite his teammate never actually managing to finish second in the WDC and Vettel leading the WDC at the half way point of both the 2017 and 2018 seasons?

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

SR1 wrote:

HamsterTime wrote:I think it's important to note that nearly all of Hamilton's WDC's have come in the turbo-hybrid era.

In this era all you really have to do to win the WDC is beat the guy in the other Merc.

How many of the current grid would beat Bottas in the same car? 40-70% of them? Are they All-Time Greats as well?

Did you have your head buried in the sand during 2017 & 2018? Ferrari had title challenging cars in both these years. Particularly 2018, the Ferrari car was a match for the Merc, arguably better.

The 2017 Merc was much better than the Ferrari, all things (including reliability) taken into account. 2018 was as much about HAM not making mistakes as it was about VET throwing it away (I distinctly remember HAM being salty at Silverstone after getting beaten, suggesting that Raikkonen had deliberately crashed into him - nothing but pressure - who knows how it would have been if VET had not bottled it up) - I would consider the cars to be roughly equal, with Merc having a slight edge overall.

I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda)

Strange logic. As has been mentioned; the Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 was absolutely on par with the Mercedes (perhaps being slightly worse in 2017 and a bit better in 2018). Likewise, back in 2008, the Ferrari was the better car. Further, when Michael was winning those titles, he didn't even have to beat the guy in the other car because that guy was never allowed to actually challenge him.

I would agree that they were very close in the first half of both seasons. But, after the summer break of both seasons, Ferrari were not a match for Mercedes. Ferrari's development progress throughout a season continues to be one of their main pitfalls.

In 2018 Ferrari was clearly the better car through the first two thirds of the season.

KingVoid wrote:Bottas is not as good as Vettel. I rate him as a Massa or Webber level driver.

Bottas beat Massa, what happened to your qualifying stats to determine that Verstappen is better than Hamilton, this to be used only when convenient perhaps?

It's true that Bottas is not as good as Vettel but then again Vettel did beat Bottas and he did this also in qualifying which is Bottas' strongest strength, again going back to qualifying stats Vettel beat Bottas at a level you expect if they were teammates when I look at 2017 when Mercedes were supposedly the faster car in qualifying?

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

You make some fair points, but at the same time it seems a little like you are picking specific areas that suit your arguments. Ultimately I think Bottas did have a higher ceiling in races and that is also reflected in the points. Interestingly Bottas does seem to have a pattern for starting the season stronger than he finishes, even at Williams. Not sure if that is circuit related, but Bottas also seems to lack consistency and I wonder if things going on off the track and in his head can play as big a factor. He can go missing for periods and one of those was linked to distractions from Ferrari’s interest in him, and he picked up the back injury at the start of 2015 was it? I think in the right surroundings, with the team focused around him Bottas has the pace to look very strong. That may well be mute because the proposed tyres next season may be better suited to Bottas and that may also have factored into Mercedes decision (different thread i know). All that aside, partnering a Hamilton/Verstappen/Alonso would be tough on any driver – it must be incredibly challenging to keep putting in your best performances week in, week out to finish behind your team mate more often than not. That must have taken it’s toll the last few seasons for Bottas.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

Max has never looked weaker than his teammates in the races, though. In fact it's the opposite; since 2015, Max has always had a larger margin over his teammate on race pace than qualifying. If he seemed to be a better qualifier than a racer that would be a different story, as Bottas' head-to-head against Massa suggested he was (and is).

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

Max has never looked weaker than his teammates in the races, though. In fact it's the opposite; since 2015, Max has always had a larger margin over his teammate on race pace than qualifying. If he seemed to be a better qualifier than a racer that would be a different story, as Bottas' head-to-head against Massa suggested he was (and is).

Yep.

Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

pokerman wrote:

A.J. wrote:

pokerman wrote:

A.J. wrote:The 2017 Merc was much better than the Ferrari, all things (including reliability) taken into account. 2018 was as much about HAM not making mistakes as it was about VET throwing it away (I distinctly remember HAM being salty at Silverstone after getting beaten, suggesting that Raikkonen had deliberately crashed into him - nothing but pressure - who knows how it would have been if VET had not bottled it up) - I would consider the cars to be roughly equal, with Merc having a slight edge overall.

I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda)

A bit of a history lesson, in 2017 Vettel was only 3 points behind Hamilton in the WDC after 13 races, the next race he was on pole with Hamilton only 5th, Vettel then crashed out 3 cars at the start gifting Hamilton the win, from there Hamilton never looked back.

In 2018 Vettel was leading the WDC by 8 points after 10 races, he was then leading comfortably in Germany before he crashed out again gifting Hamilton the win, after that Hamilton never lost the lead in the WDC.

This is Hamilton only having his teammate to beat whilst giving a 4xWDC seemingly little credibility?

Your "history lesson" would make a lot more sense if you actually respond to what people are saying instead of parroting the same ideas in virtually every thread.

Maybe this lesson will be of benefit: https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/reading

You mean like trying to comprehend your post that states that in the last 2 years Hamilton only had his teammate to beat, this even despite his teammate never actually managing to finish second in the WDC and Vettel leading the WDC at the half way point of both the 2017 and 2018 seasons?

Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

tootsie323 wrote:Eat a dinosaur.

Must be a T-Rex, else it's too easy (like his last 4 WDCs)

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

KingVoid wrote: Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

I'd have to question your logic there - If Massa was the better racer, how did end up finishing behind Bottas every year in the standings and being outscored by over a hundred points in their time as teammates...

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

2008 and he certainly didn't only have to beat his team mate.

Hamilton proved nothing in 2014-16 IMO. I find those seasons impossible to rate. 2017 and 2018 did a lot for his reputation though. moved him up a level.

mikeyg123 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

2008 and he certainly didn't only have to beat his team mate.

Hamilton proved nothing in 2014-16 IMO. I find those seasons impossible to rate. 2017 and 2018 did a lot for his reputation though. moved him up a level.

I mostly agree with you, but I found 2008 to be underwhelming compared to his debut year. It was more of a case of who makes fewer mistakes than any driver doing something "great", so to speak. For 2017/18 I have already stated what I think - nothing to add to it here.

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

This was the original comment:

In this era all you really have to do to win the WDC is beat the guy in the other Merc.


Now, that may have been true of 2014-2016, but anyone with a functioning pair of eyes could see the landscape had changed by 2017. Ferrari produced cars that were comparable to the Mercs 2017 & 2018. Vettel even led the championship, in both years, for sizeable portions of each season. To claim Hamilton didn't have to beat/outperform Ferrari in both these years, makes no sense & is disingenous.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

Max has never looked weaker than his teammates in the races, though. In fact it's the opposite; since 2015, Max has always had a larger margin over his teammate on race pace than qualifying. If he seemed to be a better qualifier than a racer that would be a different story, as Bottas' head-to-head against Massa suggested he was (and is).

It doesn't change the fact that there is no way to measure Verstappen's race pace relative to Hamilton's, this is just changing parameters to suit an argument, Button beat Hamilton on points in 2011 and largely considered to have beat Hamilton fair and square but maybe this should be revisited now because head to heads are so important and Hamilton matched Button on head to head and also actually won as many races as Button.

KingVoid wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

Max has never looked weaker than his teammates in the races, though. In fact it's the opposite; since 2015, Max has always had a larger margin over his teammate on race pace than qualifying. If he seemed to be a better qualifier than a racer that would be a different story, as Bottas' head-to-head against Massa suggested he was (and is).

Yep.

Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

Run past me why you think Verstappen is better than Hamilton?

A.J. wrote:

pokerman wrote:

A.J. wrote:

pokerman wrote:

A.J. wrote:The 2017 Merc was much better than the Ferrari, all things (including reliability) taken into account. 2018 was as much about HAM not making mistakes as it was about VET throwing it away (I distinctly remember HAM being salty at Silverstone after getting beaten, suggesting that Raikkonen had deliberately crashed into him - nothing but pressure - who knows how it would have been if VET had not bottled it up) - I would consider the cars to be roughly equal, with Merc having a slight edge overall.

I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda)

A bit of a history lesson, in 2017 Vettel was only 3 points behind Hamilton in the WDC after 13 races, the next race he was on pole with Hamilton only 5th, Vettel then crashed out 3 cars at the start gifting Hamilton the win, from there Hamilton never looked back.

In 2018 Vettel was leading the WDC by 8 points after 10 races, he was then leading comfortably in Germany before he crashed out again gifting Hamilton the win, after that Hamilton never lost the lead in the WDC.

This is Hamilton only having his teammate to beat whilst giving a 4xWDC seemingly little credibility?

Your "history lesson" would make a lot more sense if you actually respond to what people are saying instead of parroting the same ideas in virtually every thread.

Maybe this lesson will be of benefit: https://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/reading

You mean like trying to comprehend your post that states that in the last 2 years Hamilton only had his teammate to beat, this even despite his teammate never actually managing to finish second in the WDC and Vettel leading the WDC at the half way point of both the 2017 and 2018 seasons?

Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

How can you say that Hamilton's only competition was his teammate, I don't see a reasoned answer to this only an attack on my posts to disguise a logic fail.

DOLOMITE wrote:

KingVoid wrote: Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

I'd have to question your logic there - If Massa was the better racer, how did end up finishing behind Bottas every year in the standings and being outscored by over a hundred points in their time as teammates...

Because on this matter he's decided that head to head comparisons are the most important thing, you just move the parameters to suit whatever the argument.

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

3 out of Hamilton's 5 titles he had to beat someone other than his teammate that's not close to being most of them he only had to beat his teammate.

SR1 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

This was the original comment:

In this era all you really have to do to win the WDC is beat the guy in the other Merc.


Now, that may have been true of 2014-2016, but anyone with a functioning pair of eyes could see the landscape had changed by 2017. Ferrari produced cars that were comparable to the Mercs 2017 & 2018. Vettel even led the championship, in both years, for sizeable portions of each season. To claim Hamilton didn't have to beat/outperform Ferrari in both these years, makes no sense & is disingenous.

Nice to see him trying to change his original post.

pokerman wrote:

SR1 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Reading comprehension is clearly not your forte - please go to the link and take some lessons. Might help. You're making up the argument on someone else's behalf to suit the narrative (and the response) in your head. Try to respond to what people have actually said/typed, not what you wish to think they have on account of what I can only call a persecution complex.

FWIW, Bottas not finishing second in 2017 means the Ferrari was an equal/better car? Do you sometimes actually realize how daft your posts are?

I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

This was the original comment:

In this era all you really have to do to win the WDC is beat the guy in the other Merc.


Now, that may have been true of 2014-2016, but anyone with a functioning pair of eyes could see the landscape had changed by 2017. Ferrari produced cars that were comparable to the Mercs 2017 & 2018. Vettel even led the championship, in both years, for sizeable portions of each season. To claim Hamilton didn't have to beat/outperform Ferrari in both these years, makes no sense & is disingenous.

Nice to see him trying to change his original post.

It wasn't my post. Seriously - try to READ. You literally are the personification of the saying - "never argue with an idiot - they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience."

I'm done with responding to this poster, as there clearly is no meaningful conversation to be had. Good luck living with the delusions of someone else's grandeur

DOLOMITE wrote:

KingVoid wrote: Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

I'd have to question your logic there - If Massa was the better racer, how did end up finishing behind Bottas every year in the standings and being outscored by over a hundred points in their time as teammates...

A couple of things:

In 2014, Massa was at least as good as Bottas. Massa just lost a huge chunk of points due to getting tangled up in accidents in Australia, Canada, Silverstone, and Germany. He lost even more points in China (75 sec pit stop) and Belgium (damaged car floor). Massa would have finished on at least as many points as Bottas if not for this absurd bad luck. His performances in 2014 when he wasn’t getting screwed were at least on par with Bottas.

In 2015, there was nothing to split the two.

In 2016, Bottas was better. Massa had probably declined by then.

A.J. wrote:

pokerman wrote:

SR1 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

Exediron wrote: I think pokerman has a fair point here. Beating your teammate may have been all a Merc driver needed to do between 2014-2016, but if your teammate doesn't finish second in the WDC then you had to beat some other drivers as well. Hamilton had to beat Vettel to win the 2017 and 2018 titles, and Vettel is not his teammate. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fair enough, except that he isn't responding to my post, even if it appears to be - this poster comes in with an agenda and just responds to anything with the same rehashed argument, irrespective of what people are actually talking about.

The original post to which people were responding (if you go back a page) said nearly all of HAM's WDCs have come by just needing to beat his team-mate - which is a valid argument, except for 2018 (the word "nearly" does give leeway here). And even in 2018, it would've been more of a fight had Vettel/Ferrari not imploded so spectacularly.

This was my quote: "I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda) "

And I stand by it - as with the point I made with MSC, I think HAM in 2007/9 and 2012 did more for his reputation as an all-time great than all his title-winning years.

This was the original comment:

In this era all you really have to do to win the WDC is beat the guy in the other Merc.


Now, that may have been true of 2014-2016, but anyone with a functioning pair of eyes could see the landscape had changed by 2017. Ferrari produced cars that were comparable to the Mercs 2017 & 2018. Vettel even led the championship, in both years, for sizeable portions of each season. To claim Hamilton didn't have to beat/outperform Ferrari in both these years, makes no sense & is disingenous.

Nice to see him trying to change his original post.

It wasn't my post. Seriously - try to READ. You literally are the personification of the saying - "never argue with an idiot - they bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience."

I'm done with responding to this poster, as there clearly is no meaningful conversation to be had. Good luck living with the delusions of someone else's grandeur

No it wasn't your post?

A.J. wrote: I think the point of the argument is still a valid one - all Hamilton has had to do is beat the guy driving the other car, which he managed 2 out of 3 with ROS, and every time with BOT. These achievements are not what gets you classified as an all-time great (FWIW, I think HAM makes that list) - think of MSC in 1996/7/8/9 vs the 2004 version - the former did a lot more for his reputation than the one where all he had to do is beat BAR (and BAR-Honda)

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:Bottas was only quicker than Massa in qualifying. On race pace they were very even. Out of the 46 occasions both Williams cars finished, Massa and Bottas finished ahead 23 times each. If Massa did not have some absolutely horrendous luck in 2014, the points tally would have been very close too.

I rate them both at a very similar level, along with Webber.

That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

Max has never looked weaker than his teammates in the races, though. In fact it's the opposite; since 2015, Max has always had a larger margin over his teammate on race pace than qualifying. If he seemed to be a better qualifier than a racer that would be a different story, as Bottas' head-to-head against Massa suggested he was (and is).

Yep.

Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

Run past me why you think Verstappen is better than Hamilton?

His race pace advantage over Ricciardo in 2018, once Max stopped crashing, was extremely convincing. I rate Ricciardo higher than Bottas as well.

So far this season Hamilton has had two terrible races while Verstappen hasn’t had any.

Verstappen is also consistently good in qualifying which Hamilton is not.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote: That kind of puts paid to your reasoning that Verstappen is better than Hamilton then based purely on qualifying stats?

Max has never looked weaker than his teammates in the races, though. In fact it's the opposite; since 2015, Max has always had a larger margin over his teammate on race pace than qualifying. If he seemed to be a better qualifier than a racer that would be a different story, as Bottas' head-to-head against Massa suggested he was (and is).

Yep.

Bottas is a weak racer and this has been a consistent pattern throughout his career. Massa frequently outraced him at Williams despite starting behind on the grid. Now at Mercedes, Bottas can kind of hang with Hamilton on Saturday but gets schooled almost every Sunday.

In the case of Max, there is no such pattern. If anything, he’s even stronger on race day than he is in qualifying.

Run past me why you think Verstappen is better than Hamilton?

His race pace advantage over Ricciardo in 2018, once Max stopped crashing, was extremely convincing. I rate Ricciardo higher than Bottas as well.

So far this season Hamilton has had two terrible races while Verstappen hasn’t had any.

Verstappen is also consistently good in qualifying which Hamilton is not.

Back to qualifying again which Bottas gets no credit for in respect to Massa.

Hamilton's 2 terrible races that you want to call them, had nothing to do with race pace, it just sounds like making things to fit what suits your personal opinion which of course you are entitled to.

Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

KingVoid wrote:Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Race pace? Canada 2018 isn't clear. Hamilton's pace was compromised by car issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vFON1QufTI

Hamilton may not have proved much to some in his recent championship years, but with Mercs policy he did still have to beat his teammate, keeping him sharp as both drivers looked to get everything out of the car. That put him in pretty good shape for the challenge from Ferrari, where he fared pretty well to say the least, and should do the same for upcoming fights with Max, Charles et. al. Commentators during practice spoke of his interviews this weekend that suggested he was relishing those upcoming battles so it certainly sounds like he has the motivation to put the fight to them. Have to enjoy this while it lasts because while Max has matured a lot this last year I still find it difficult to warm to him and the guard will change, but hopefully not for a couple of years!

Why is king void going on like Hamilton can barely beat bottas? Lol he won the WDC in a car bottas couldnt barely win a race

It's reached the point that there's no use arguing with him honestly, his agenda is THICK and everything is to meet his confirmation bias.

He is a dinosaur now.

Best thing he can do is simply retire make crappy music eat muesli and have a quiet life.

Its a fact not a myth he as at very best a extra 2 years at the top before all these young guns over take him and show him up for what he really is. A washed up preadona.

the fact merc also re singed a mediocre driver to drive with him shows there are also biding there time to get the verstappen in the seat

FormulaFun wrote:Why is king void going on like Hamilton can barely beat bottas? Lol he won the WDC in a car bottas couldnt barely win a race

It's reached the point that there's no use arguing with him honestly, his agenda is THICK and everything is to meet his confirmation bias.

What else is he suppose to do? Hamilton and Mercedes are the reason his beloved team are still searching for that elusive WDC/WCC. He needs to express his frustration and hate somehow. I'm still wondering why other users bother to reply to the utter non sense that he posts.

lord byron wrote:He is a dinosaur now.

Best thing he can do is simply retire make crappy music eat muesli and have a quiet life.

Its a fact not a myth he as at very best a extra 2 years at the top before all these young guns over take him and show him up for what he really is. A washed up preadona.

the fact merc also re singed a mediocre driver to drive with him shows there are also biding there time to get the verstappen in the seat

What did Hamilton do to upset you?

lord byron wrote:He is a dinosaur now.

Best thing he can do is simply retire make crappy music eat muesli and have a quiet life.

Its a fact not a myth he as at very best a extra 2 years at the top before all these young guns over take him and show him up for what he really is. A washed up preadona.

the fact merc also re singed a mediocre driver to drive with him shows there are also biding there time to get the verstappen in the seat

You poor thing

lord byron wrote:He is a dinosaur now.

Best thing he can do is simply retire make crappy music eat muesli and have a quiet life.

Its a fact not a myth he as at very best a extra 2 years at the top before all these young guns over take him and show him up for what he really is. A washed up preadona.

the fact merc also re singed a mediocre driver to drive with him shows there are also biding there time to get the verstappen in the seat

Repeat after me: "Lewis Hamilton, six time WORLD DRIVING CHAMPION". Coming soon!

With apologies to Willy S.
Lewis doth bestride the narrow world
Like a colossus, and petty drivers
Walk under his huge legs, and peep about
To find themselves back racing sedans.

KingVoid wrote:Hamilton’s 2 terrible races was a response regarding this season’s performance.

Anyway, let’s just compare 2017 and 2018.

- Hamilton was clearly slower than Bottas at Russia 2017, Monaco 2017, China 2018, and Canada 2018.
- Verstappen was slower than Ricciardo at Abu Dhabi 2017. I can’t think of any other race. Maybe Baku 2018. That’s it.
- In other words, Hamilton was outpaced by Bottas slightly more often than Verstappen was outpaced by Ricciardo.

Now, Ricciardo was clearly quicker than Vettel on race pace, while Bottas wasn’t even any quicker than Massa. Likewise, Vettel is definitely a better driver than Massa.

Now are you beginning to see the picture?

Now you've gone back to 2017 and 2018 of which I can't remember that clearly but I do remember Hamilton had an engine issue in Canada in 2018 so I would question your diligence somewhat.

Of course we are comparing with Verstappen, we are thinking that in 2017 Verstappen was actually better than Hamilton?

FormulaFun wrote:Why is king void going on like Hamilton can barely beat bottas? Lol he won the WDC in a car bottas couldnt barely win a race

It's reached the point that there's no use arguing with him honestly, his agenda is THICK and everything is to meet his confirmation bias.

Well it's obvious tactics, first discredit Bottas and then make a case for Hamilton struggling to beat him, the end game to prove that Verstappen is better than Hamilton.

lord byron wrote:He is a dinosaur now.

Best thing he can do is simply retire make crappy music eat muesli and have a quiet life.

Its a fact not a myth he as at very best a extra 2 years at the top before all these young guns over take him and show him up for what he really is. A washed up preadona.

the fact merc also re singed a mediocre driver to drive with him shows there are also biding there time to get the verstappen in the seat

Wow so salty, on the verge of his 6th title, that must hurt?

Irrelevant subthread removed by mod.