Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

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WiredKiwi
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by WiredKiwi »

Richard Hammond suffered DAI and had a remarkably good outcome. Rally driver Possum Bourne suffered DAI and never regained consciousness. So any outcome is still possible. However the earlier statement that said "The CT scan shows that he has suffered a severe head injury" is concerning, especially as CTs for patients with DAI often are 'relatively pristine''. It suggests he is showing both clinical and physical signs of serious injury caused by massive and sudden deceleration.

edited for spelling
Tous Avec Jules #17

Arai_or_Nothing
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Arai_or_Nothing »

In Max's case it's not just deceleration. His head surely nicked the tractor enough for deceleration but as he passed it I'm sure his head whipped about a few times before once again experiencing deceleration at the endpoint of the accident. I'd guess his brain bounced around a good bit which makes for a more severe case.

I sure hope this young man is the exception as it would be a great tragedy and would mar F1's pristine safety record since 1994 in the way of deaths in the sport.

backdoc
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by backdoc »

I'm not sure if this has been posted already but some interesting reading from former F1 doc, Gary Hartstein: http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... al-injury/

Doesn't appear to be very good news at all :(

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Mod_Turquoise
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Mod_Turquoise »

backdoc wrote:I'm not sure if this has been posted already but some interesting reading from former F1 doc, Gary Hartstein: http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... al-injury/

Doesn't appear to be very good news at all :(
I'd suggest caution with any and all of this kind of information. Yes, it does not suggest a great prognosis, but then again, it may turn out to be a very 'mild' kind of case (at least we can hope). The bottom line, which I think is still hard for all to understand and accept - is that we have to wait and see what happens.

Brain injuries are incredibly variable and recoveries can vary from 'none' to 'full'. Realistically, whilst we all want to hear that Jules is improving, or even that he is not 'in a bad way'; this kind of information is probably not gonna happen overnight and may take months or more.

I can only reiterate what others have said; we can only wait and hope/pray that the news will one day be good. For myself, I see no point in further speculation, irrespective of the genuine feelings of shock and concern which we all feel, there is little that such 'small' talk will do to ease those feelings (in fact, I think it just makes the 'not knowing' even worse). All of us, I'm sure, are desperate for good news - but we have to be patient and also to allow his family and doctors to support him in his fight, without having to spend time fighting or dispelling the rumour mill.

For me, I feel that all we can do (as a community) is wish him and his family well, and wait patiently, and with respect, for the actual outcome. I'd personally prefer that we do not degrade the dignity of Jules or his family with continued speculation and analysis of his 'condition'.

WiredKiwi
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by WiredKiwi »

Arai_or_Nothing wrote:In Jules' case it's not just deceleration. His head surely nicked the tractor enough for deceleration but as he passed it I'm sure his head whipped about a few times before once again experiencing deceleration at the endpoint of the accident. I'd guess his brain bounced around a good bit which makes for a more severe case.

I sure hope this young man is the exception as it would be a great tragedy and would mar F1's pristine safety record since 1994 in the way of deaths in the sport.
I fixed that for you. Please pay enough attention and respect to *at least* get the driver's name right!

We dont' know if his head was hit or not. We havent' been given that information, so you're just guessing which isn't helpful.
Tous Avec Jules #17

JMILAT
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by JMILAT »

Mod_Turquoise wrote:
backdoc wrote:I'm not sure if this has been posted already but some interesting reading from former F1 doc, Gary Hartstein: http://formerf1doc.wordpress.com/2014/1 ... al-injury/

Doesn't appear to be very good news at all :(
I'd suggest caution with any and all of this kind of information. Yes, it does not suggest a great prognosis, but then again, it may turn out to be a very 'mild' kind of case (at least we can hope). The bottom line, which I think is still hard for all to understand and accept - is that we have to wait and see what happens.

Brain injuries are incredibly variable and recoveries can vary from 'none' to 'full'. Realistically, whilst we all want to hear that Jules is improving, or even that he is not 'in a bad way'; this kind of information is probably not gonna happen overnight and may take months or more.

I can only reiterate what others have said; we can only wait and hope/pray that the news will one day be good. For myself, I see no point in further speculation, irrespective of the genuine feelings of shock and concern which we all feel, there is little that such 'small' talk will do to ease those feelings (in fact, I think it just makes the 'not knowing' even worse). All of us, I'm sure, are desperate for good news - but we have to be patient and also to allow his family and doctors to support him in his fight, without having to spend time fighting or dispelling the rumour mill.

For me, I feel that all we can do (as a community) is wish him and his family well, and wait patiently, and with respect, for the actual outcome. I'd personally prefer that we do not degrade the dignity of Jules or his family with continued speculation and analysis of his 'condition'.
I agree we have to wait and see and brain injury outcomes are always quite unpredictable and nor do we really know a whole lot about it.

But lets be honest this looks a severe case of this type of injury. None of the signs we are getting is that it is mild. It looks severe and the outcome looks very bleak.

I hope I'm wrong but it just doesn't look good.

cirujano
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by cirujano »

Mod Aqua :thumbup:

Lets wait and support Jules.

Davidbl
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Davidbl »

I just want to wish Jules well.

Warheart01

Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Warheart01 »

The news have taken a turn for the worse since the news about him breathing unaided. But there is nothing else than to keep hope up and keep supporting him, the outcome might still turn out better than what it looks like right now.

My thoughts are with you Jules and I hope dearly you will pull through and have the best possible recovery.

TheBlackFlag
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by TheBlackFlag »

I am a former Ski Racer who lost two friends to a "diffuse axonal injury" and can tell you that the news of Jules injury is horrific. He will likely never regain consciousness and if he does, he will likely need total and full-time care for the rest of his life.

Why it is so hard to accept this diagnosis is that the injury is a closed-skull injury and once any facial abrasions heal he will look "normal".

Sutton
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Sutton »

with the cranes on the runoff area, this was simply an accident that could have happened anytime over the last 20 years.

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Covalent
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Covalent »

Sutton wrote:with the cranes on the runoff area, this was simply an accident that could have happened anytime over the last 20 years.
It doesn't even require a crane if someone ignores the warnings. One example being Alonso at Brazil a few years ago, could've ended a lot worse.

Sutton
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Sutton »

Covalent wrote:
Sutton wrote:with the cranes on the runoff area, this was simply an accident that could have happened anytime over the last 20 years.
It doesn't even require a crane if someone ignores the warnings. One example being Alonso at Brazil a few years ago, could've ended a lot worse.
quite possibly, but for all we know, Bianchi could have lifted off, yet still aquaplaned off the track?

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Covalent
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Covalent »

Sutton wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Sutton wrote:with the cranes on the runoff area, this was simply an accident that could have happened anytime over the last 20 years.
It doesn't even require a crane if someone ignores the warnings. One example being Alonso at Brazil a few years ago, could've ended a lot worse.
quite possibly, but for all we know, Bianchi could have lifted off, yet still aquaplaned off the track?
Sure looked like he was going way too fast. Double yellows means "slow considerably", not just "lift off".

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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Mod Aqua »

This speculation isn't helpful in any thread, but especially this one which is for updates and discussion about his condition.

flyboy10
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by flyboy10 »

Covalent wrote:
Sutton wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Sutton wrote:with the cranes on the runoff area, this was simply an accident that could have happened anytime over the last 20 years.
It doesn't even require a crane if someone ignores the warnings. One example being Alonso at Brazil a few years ago, could've ended a lot worse.
quite possibly, but for all we know, Bianchi could have lifted off, yet still aquaplaned off the track?
Sure looked like he was going way too fast. Double yellows means "slow considerably", not just "lift off".
Can I ask you what speed a car that would have been doing 200mph would do if it "slowed considerably"? Also, what would an accident be like caused by aquaplaning at this new, reduced speed?

Am I the only one who thinks that slowing from 200 to (what I imagine they would slow to) around 150mph isn't going to make that much difference in a crash?

hydra
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by hydra »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Museli wrote:Miracles happen - Schumacher to live normal life:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motors ... qus_thread

keep fighting jules
Tort says that he will live a relatively normal life within a short period of time. Just wondering if that means that he will live relatively normally soon or will live a relatively normal life for a short period of time?

Sad to hear about the 90% thing. Jules' head injury in theory should be very severe, but he's probably got the best doctors around him.
not to get off topic, but this claim by Todt was mistranslated and that is, unfortunately, not what he said. Which is why we should stick to official updates.

I think Marussia will decide very soon what to do with this weekend's race. Hopefully we'll get some good news from the team soon. Keep fighting Jules!

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UnlikeUday
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by UnlikeUday »

TheBlackFlag wrote:I am a former Ski Racer who lost two friends to a "diffuse axonal injury" and can tell you that the news of Jules injury is horrific. He will likely never regain consciousness and if he does, he will likely need total and full-time care for the rest of his life.

Why it is so hard to accept this diagnosis is that the injury is a closed-skull injury and once any facial abrasions heal he will look "normal".
Sorry about hearing the death of Your friends. You must've felt the same pain from Bianchi's crash as You had felt during the time of Your friends deaths.

Sometimes fate can be so CRUEL. Out of all the young drivers of the field, he was 1 of the most promising. Him driving a F1 car again is not as important as he regaining consciousness and living a normal life because there is no gift as beautiful as life.

Will keep praying for a miracle. C'mon Jules, make us s(mile)!
Feel The Fourth

Lesky
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Lesky »

Image

May time heal them both!

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jimmyj
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by jimmyj »

Lesky wrote:Image

May time heal them both!
:thumbup: :thumbup:

paul_gmb
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by paul_gmb »

I know my question will sound dum, but I may have missed the exact point.

Was Bianchi's trauma caused by the massive deccelaration or by his head hitting the counterweight ?

flyboy10
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by flyboy10 »

paul_gmb wrote:I know my question will sound dum, but I may have missed the exact point.

Was Bianchi's trauma caused by the massive deccelaration or by his head hitting the counterweight ?
I don't think that's a dumb question and I don't thin anyone has said directly but it seems that the injury is caused by deceleration (which being hit on the head/helmet could cause) as a result of the car (and his head) stopping so abruptly from high speed).

It pretty much amounts to the same thing except that his skull and face are (I presume) not fractured. It's his brain that has been injured - a bit like the yolk of an egg inside an unbroken shell in an egg-box that was dropped from a very great height.

paul_gmb
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by paul_gmb »

flyboy10 wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:I know my question will sound dum, but I may have missed the exact point.

Was Bianchi's trauma caused by the massive deccelaration or by his head hitting the counterweight ?
I don't think that's a dumb question and I don't thin anyone has said directly but it seems that the injury is caused by deceleration (which being hit on the head/helmet could cause) as a result of the car (and his head) stopping so abruptly from high speed).

It pretty much amounts to the same thing except that his skull and face are (I presume) not fractured. It's his brain that has been injured - a bit like the yolk of an egg inside an unbroken shell in an egg-box that was dropped from a very great height.
It's kind of weird thinking that this kind of thing could happen even without that crane. Altough I do agree that as tracks are built, it must really be a freak accident to withstand such decelarations. At the same time it makes you wonder how did Kubica just walk out from that crash in Canada.

The velocity from what I could see was way bigger in Kubica's case, and that wall did not move like the crane did. It just makes you wonder how in certain cases it ends up so different...

futureshock999
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by futureshock999 »

Firstly, Jules, should you ever read this, know that all of our small voices are lifted for you in hope and support. Know that those that pray, are praying, and those that don't, are expressing their hopes for you in other ways. We will miss you on the track, until whenever you return.

johnp
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by johnp »

in Kubica's case the front of his car absorbed most of the impact, in Bianchi's case his helmet struck the tractor at 130mph

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Lt. Drebin »

I am not sure about it - that he actually hit the helmet at any part of the crane. At least it is not certain. The known photo with the first medical personnel shows no sign of any marks on his helmet, and even his visor seems to be without visible damage. I have no impression about any contact of his helmet and the crane. Deacceleration was enough to give him such heavy injury.
The end is near

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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by InBetween »

Lt. Drebin wrote:I am not sure about it - that he actually hit the helmet at any part of the crane. At least it is not certain. The known photo with the first medical personnel shows no sign of any marks on his helmet, and even his visor seems to be without visible damage. I have no impression about any contact of his helmet and the crane. Deacceleration was enough to give him such heavy injury.
Impact to the helmet would in any case be in the left, left top of the helmet so you wouldn't see any visible damage in the photo you mention.

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Lt. Drebin
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Lt. Drebin »

F1, GP2 and GP3 drivers will wear helmet stickers in support of Jules Bianchi at this weekend's Russian Grand Prix. JEV arranged the whole thing:
Image
It means: We are all with Jules #17
The end is near

Chunky
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Chunky »

I've not gone all the way through this thread, so apologies if this is old news. There is now a spectator video on YouTube, which looks pretty shocking so I'm not going to post the link. It's easy enough to find if you can handle it. It shows a view at an angle side on behind the crane, so the car comes in from left to right.

Not everything is clear from the video, but the car certainly didn't go in sideways as we've been led to expect. It goes in nose first at quite considerable speed and the left side of the car impacts the back end of the crane with enough force to lift it several feet in the air and spin it around by about 90 degrees. It then comes down on the back of the car, behind the cockpit as the chassis continues into the tyre barrier.

It doesn't look as if there is a contact with the helmet, although I personally can't be certain from the quality of the vid. But without doubt there must have been a heck of a deceleration if it could throw the crane in the air and still allow it to come back down on the now almost stationary car.

I sincerely hope that Jules comes out of it okay, but I fear that our trauma surgeon friend is on the money.

.

.

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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Badgeronimous »

Regardless of if his helmet hit the tractor counterweight. The impact was in a place of the f1 car that isn't designed as a crumple zone on a head on impact as it shouldn't happen. Its designed for upside down/rolling accidents.

A lot of energy has been transmitted through structures (counter weight and roll bar) that are not designed to absorb energy..... then his already broken car has had a secondary crash into barriers. Even without the helmet making contact with the tractor (a minor miracle imo if it turns out to be the case) it is still a huge accident.

lamo

Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by lamo »

It shows what a good job the tyre barriers and crash structures have been doing over the years. It appears Jules has de accelerated from 130 to 0 almost instantly.

With a tyre barrier and crash structure and this de-acceleration is spread over a few metres (hans device also helps in a frontal impact) which makes it a harmless accident.

Keep fighting Jules.

wildeone
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by wildeone »

This article mentions a few things that can be considered heartening, namely the specialists that have been sent in as consultants for treatment: http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/29558046 It was already stated in the press release, but still, that they are mentioning it again gives me hope.

It is also fantastic to see that ALL the drives will be wearing "Tous avec Jules #17" on their helmets. Wouldn't it be lovely if Jules was awake to see it?

#ForzaJules

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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Razoola »

The car does go in half sideways, the position of the camera man and angle of the car hides this fact giving the illusion its going in head first. The reality is the car is traveling away from the camera faster than left to right, its actually skidding over the tarmac before it hits the tractor.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I have just come across a video from today of how the drivers are now feeling about Bianchi's terrible accident last weekend. There really could do with being a two week break as it was such a tragic race last weekend.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/29561538

WiredKiwi
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by WiredKiwi »

A very heartfelt statement from Marussia on why they are choosing to run only one car. http://www.marussiaf1team.com/news/1037/
Tous Avec Jules #17

angrypirate
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by angrypirate »

flyboy10 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Sutton wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Sutton wrote:with the cranes on the runoff area, this was simply an accident that could have happened anytime over the last 20 years.
It doesn't even require a crane if someone ignores the warnings. One example being Alonso at Brazil a few years ago, could've ended a lot worse.
quite possibly, but for all we know, Bianchi could have lifted off, yet still aquaplaned off the track?
Sure looked like he was going way too fast. Double yellows means "slow considerably", not just "lift off".
Can I ask you what speed a car that would have been doing 200mph would do if it "slowed considerably"? Also, what would an accident be like caused by aquaplaning at this new, reduced speed?

Am I the only one who thinks that slowing from 200 to (what I imagine they would slow to) around 150mph isn't going to make that much difference in a crash?
Really? I posted this calc in the safety thread, but I'll regurgitate it to see the difference 200 to 150mph makes in terms of g force in an impact
Just to give people a feel about what a tyre barrier gives, ive cranked out a couple of calcs (sorry - its the engineer in me):
I reckon the tyre barrier gives a few meters play. A fork lift stops you pretty much instantaneously. Assume you are travelling at 100mph fork lift gives you 1 meter which im assuming is the car crumple zone, versus a tyre barrier which gives 2m + 1m crumple zone.

100mph = 45m/s. g = 9.8m/s^2

Equations of speed
v^2 = u^2 + 2as

where v is final velocity, u is initial, a = acceleration and s = distance

So deceleration into fork lift = (45^2) / (1 x 9.8 ) = 206g
Deceleration into tyre barrier = (45^2) / (3 x 9.8 ) = 68g

For your reference, the highest g-load ever recorded and survived is 214g by Kenny Brack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenny_Br%C3%A4ck

I imagine Marussia will know exactly the g-load that Bianchi has seen from the sensor in the car.
200mph = 89.4meters /s
Deceleration into tyre barrier = (89.4^2) / (3 x 9.8 ) = 217g

150mph = 67.0 meters /s
Deceleration into tyre barrier = (67^2) / (3 x 9.8 ) = 152g

So, yes it would make a difference. Also this calc doesnt bear in mind any speed loss before impact.

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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by InBetween »

angrypirate wrote:Really? I posted this calc in the safety thread, but I'll regurgitate it to see the difference 200 to 150mph makes in terms of g force in an impact


200mph = 89.4meters /s
Deceleration into tyre barrier = (89.4^2) / (3 x 9.8 ) = 217g

150mph = 67.0 meters /s
Deceleration into tyre barrier = (67^2) / (3 x 9.8 ) = 152g

So, yes it would make a difference. Also this calc doesnt bear in mind any speed loss before impact.
Although I do agree with the point you are making, your reasoning is flawed. You are considering the same lift deacceleration distance (1 m) in both cases. The truth is that the distance will also depend on the kinetic energy of the incoming vehicle (speed) that will displace more or less the stationary vehicle giving more or less deacceleration room.

flyboy10
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by flyboy10 »

In your calculations, where has the 2 gone?

in the +2as, a is the acceleration we are looking for in the final answer, which is -(U^2)/2s

which you can then divide by 9.8 to get the answer in terms of g

Those answers are out by a factor of 2, effectively doubling the difference between an accident at full speed and one at reduced speed.

I've just done it using algebra from your proposed SUVAT equation but if you want to check your own answers, you can use this app

http://suvatcalculator.apphb.com/

jamei
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by jamei »

An interview with his father yesterday:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/j ... -fighting/

“The situation is desperate. Every time the telephone goes, we know it could be the hospital to tell us that Jules is dead. But initially they said that the first 24 hours were crucial. Then it became the first 72 hours and here we are still with Jules, who is fighting."

“I was very sad when [Schumacher] got hurt. I kept wondering, like every one else ‘Why don’t they tell us more about how he is?’ But now I’m in the same position I understand. Everyone keeps asking me how Jules is but I can’t reply, there is no answer. It’s very serous, but he’s stable. One day he seems a bit better, other days bit worse."
Last edited by jamei on Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Peter77
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Re: Jules Bianchi Update Thread [Split Thread]

Post by Peter77 »

jamei wrote:An interview with his father yesterday:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2014/10/j ... -fighting/

“The situation is desperate. Every time the telephone goes, we know it could be the hospital to tell us that Jules is dead. But initially they said that the first 24 hours were crucial. Then it became the first 72 hours and here we are still with Jules, who is fighting."

“I was very sad when [Schumacher] got hurt. I kept wondering, like very one else ‘Why don’t they tell us more about how he is?’ But now I’m in the same position I understand. Everyone keeps asking me how Jules is but I can’t reply, there is no answer. It’s very serous, but he’s stable. One day he seems a bit better, other days bit worse."
very very sad. Praying for a miracle for Jules.
"Talented drivers adapt, the mediocre ones complain."

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