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AnRs wrote:Another myth, the McLaren of 2007 and 2008 Was voted Car of the year and even the driver Said it Was the best car. Why this urge to talk down Lewis cars?

That's because back then it was assumed that both Kimi and Massa were top line drivers, it's also strange considering that Ferrari won the most races, had the most poles and fastest laps, this when fastest laps meant something.

How do both Kimi and Massa stand now alongside the likes of Alonso and Hamilton now, the last 8 years we have seen Kimi and Massa getting thrashed by Alonso and Vettel.

AnRs wrote:In 2007 McLaren Threw away a Huge lead in the second half and Was outperformed by Kimi in the end, in 2008 I wouldn’t say that neither McLaren nor Ferrari where smoothe operating. It’s still so that McLaren Was voted the car of the year.

2007-2008 Ferrari had the most wins, poles and fastest laps both years, in 2008 alone Massa had the most wins and poles against Hamilton, Massa who then got thrashed by Alonso and beat by Bottas 3 years on the trot.

Kimi and Massa were equally matched at Ferrari, like Massa, Kimi also got thrashed by Alonso so that kind of dispels the argument that Massa was brain damaged in particular with Kimi now getting thrashed by Vettel.

sandman1347 wrote:

lamo wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:Really there is no other reasonable conclusion to come to other than that the Ferrari was a slightly quicker car than the Mclaren during those years. It was quick enough to make up for the deficit of Kimi/Massa to Hamilton/Alonso such that you had two close championships.

It makes you wonder, what if Hamilton retired last year. What would people make of Bottas fighting closely for the title against Vettel in 2018 and narrowly beating him in the final race?

To me, on what we know so far, surely the Mercedes would have to be superior. People see a close championship fight and think the cars have to be equal for some weird reason.

We know absolutely nothing about how Bottas stacks up against Vettel. This is something you would need to know in order to be able to assess with certainty how closely matched last year's cars were. We know that massa was marginally quicker than Kimi and that Bottas was marginally quicker than massa. We also know that there was a huge gap between Alonso and both of them and roughly identical performance between a veteran Alonso and a rookie Hamilton. So we know that hamilton is easily better than Raikkonen and we also know that Alonso was better than Raikkonen by a bigger margin than Vettel. So start putting the picture together there. Also your scenario about Bottas narrowly beating Vettel in the final race assumes everything would work out exactly the same without Hamilton in the picture (which is a totally absurd assumption).

Yeah with Hamilton out of the way and two Bottas level drivers in the Mercedes then surely Vettel wins the title?

lamo wrote:I guess it depends on what Bottas you get;

The one who is 0.5-0.7 off of Hamilton - he turned up about 5 times last year.
The one who is 0.2-0.3 off of Hamilton - he turned up about 5 times last year.
The one who is within 0.1-0.2 of Hamilton - he turned up about 5 times last year.
The one who is quicker or less than a tenth behind - he turned up about 5 times last year.

In a best case scenario for Bottas, he is ever so slightly quicker than Vettel over a season. But he is still wildly inconsistent. Realistically, I would be very surprised if he could beat Vettel over a season in the same car. I'm pretty sure he is better than Raikkonen at this stage though.

That's how qualifying tends to work over a season, you don't get consistent gaps race to race, Vettel actually easily out qualified Bottas last season.

lamo wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

lamo wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:Really there is no other reasonable conclusion to come to other than that the Ferrari was a slightly quicker car than the Mclaren during those years. It was quick enough to make up for the deficit of Kimi/Massa to Hamilton/Alonso such that you had two close championships.

It makes you wonder, what if Hamilton retired last year. What would people make of Bottas fighting closely for the title against Vettel in 2018 and narrowly beating him in the final race?

To me, on what we know so far, surely the Mercedes would have to be superior. People see a close championship fight and think the cars have to be equal for some weird reason.

We know absolutely nothing about how Bottas stacks up against Vettel. This is something you would need to know in order to be able to assess with certainty how closely matched last year's cars were. We know that massa was marginally quicker than Kimi and that Bottas was marginally quicker than massa. We also know that there was a huge gap between Alonso and both of them and roughly identical performance between a veteran Alonso and a rookie Hamilton. So we know that hamilton is easily better than Raikkonen and we also know that Alonso was better than Raikkonen by a bigger margin than Vettel. So start putting the picture together there. Also your scenario about Bottas narrowly beating Vettel in the final race assumes everything would work out exactly the same without Hamilton in the picture (which is a totally absurd assumption).

Alonso was better than Kimi by a similar margin to Vettel. We know that, too

Its always hard using 1 year of data and plus Kimi was new to Ferrari for '14 and Vettel new for '15. But wasn't Vettel 0.1-0.2 slower using 2015 data. Which I think is a good effort considering those first 2 facts.

Has Kimi got quicker relative to Vettel, obviously his 2016 was much better but how did 2017 compare to 2015? I haven't seen any analysis on this, does anybody know the gist?

As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

We can never determine who are the fastest drivers even when they drive the same cars but we sure can decide which are the fastest cars?

Lotus49 wrote:Massa-Bottas did to an extent. 2014 to first half of 2015 Massa edged it in the stats but second half of 2015 and the entire 2016 Bottas blew him away Alonso style.

You could check Button-Lewis for balance as well to see if it swung.

The Hamilton/Button years were very consistent.

pokerman wrote:

lamo wrote:

Zoue wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

lamo wrote:

It makes you wonder, what if Hamilton retired last year. What would people make of Bottas fighting closely for the title against Vettel in 2018 and narrowly beating him in the final race?

To me, on what we know so far, surely the Mercedes would have to be superior. People see a close championship fight and think the cars have to be equal for some weird reason.

We know absolutely nothing about how Bottas stacks up against Vettel. This is something you would need to know in order to be able to assess with certainty how closely matched last year's cars were. We know that massa was marginally quicker than Kimi and that Bottas was marginally quicker than massa. We also know that there was a huge gap between Alonso and both of them and roughly identical performance between a veteran Alonso and a rookie Hamilton. So we know that hamilton is easily better than Raikkonen and we also know that Alonso was better than Raikkonen by a bigger margin than Vettel. So start putting the picture together there. Also your scenario about Bottas narrowly beating Vettel in the final race assumes everything would work out exactly the same without Hamilton in the picture (which is a totally absurd assumption).

Alonso was better than Kimi by a similar margin to Vettel. We know that, too

Its always hard using 1 year of data and plus Kimi was new to Ferrari for '14 and Vettel new for '15. But wasn't Vettel 0.1-0.2 slower using 2015 data. Which I think is a good effort considering those first 2 facts.

Has Kimi got quicker relative to Vettel, obviously his 2016 was much better but how did 2017 compare to 2015? I haven't seen any analysis on this, does anybody know the gist?

As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

So in 2015 and 2014 we are talking exactly the same win ratio and less than half a tenth separating their respective performances in qualifying. If that's not pretty close then I don't know what is. A single race would affect that, let alone a whole season.

So I stand by what I say. The margin was similar. I'd go further and say it was almost identical

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

We can never determine who are the fastest drivers even when they drive the same cars but we sure can decide which are the fastest cars?

Are you suggesting that it's debatable the Mercedes cars have been the quickest since the hybrid era began?

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:Another myth, the McLaren of 2007 and 2008 Was voted Car of the year and even the driver Said it Was the best car. Why this urge to talk down Lewis cars?

That's because back then it was assumed that both Kimi and Massa were top line drivers, it's also strange considering that Ferrari won the most races, had the most poles and fastest laps, this when fastest laps meant something.

How do both Kimi and Massa stand now alongside the likes of Alonso and Hamilton now, the last 8 years we have seen Kimi and Massa getting thrashed by Alonso and Vettel.

You truly beleive Lewis hasn’t Done any better since the last half of 2007 and 2008?

pokerman wrote: As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

Thanks, nice stats. Funny, I would have guessed Kimi to be further behind in all of those seasons. Around 0.250 behind two elite drivers actually isn't that bad. Especially considering that he turns 39 this season, maybe 25 year old Kimi could have given Vettel closer competition?

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

Kimi wasn't the fastest in the second half of 2007, he scored the most points, there is a difference.

Like has been explained in previous posts, the other drivers had their bad luck/errors in the second half of the year. Kimi had a trouble free last 7 races.

Alonso -
-Aqua planned out in Japan from P2
-Possibly getting sub prime treatment from Mclaren
-Had a 5 place grid penalty in Hungary

Hamilton -
-Gearbox issue in Brazil
-Error in pit lane entry from P2 in China
-Puncture in Turkish GP
-Wheel failure in qualifying for the German GP

Massa -
-Team didn't add enough fuel in car in qualifying at Hungary, started P16
-His engine blew from P3 at Monza
-Team order to give up win in Brazil

= Also 2 wet races in the final 7 and he is useless in the wet.

Raikkonen -
In all of the last 7 races, he inherited at least 1 or 2 places due to others misfortune with the exception of China were he had taken the lead when Hamilton spun out. He had no misfortune himself and went on a podium run in the best car.

He was still no better than Massa. Inferior if it was dry.

Hungary - Massa starts p16 due to fuel issue, no comparison.
Turkey - Massa, win and pole
Monza - Massa, qualified ahead and running ahead of Kimi before engine blow
Spa - Kimi, at his best track, narrowly out qualifies Massa by 0.016 and they run the entire race less than 2 seconds apart
Japan - WET race. Massa useless
China - WET race. Massa useless
Brazil - Massa on pole and running ahead before team orders give Kimi win.

The myth is that Kimi was strong in 2007 compared to Massa but then had the car go against him or got lazy for 2008. Massa was the quicker driver in the dry in every season they were paired. Kimi was superior in the wet, I think he beat hm 5-1 in the wet races they were paired. This is also the reason Hamilton was able to win the 2008 title.

lamo wrote:

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

Kimi wasn't the fastest in the second half of 2007, he scored the most points, there is a difference.

Like has been explained in previous posts, the other drivers had their bad luck/errors in the second half of the year. Kimi had a trouble free last 7 races.

Alonso -
-Aqua planned out in Japan from P2
-Possibly getting sub prime treatment from Mclaren
-Had a 5 place grid penalty in Hungary

Hamilton -
-Gearbox issue in Brazil
-Error in pit lane entry from P2 in China
-Puncture in Turkish GP
-Wheel failure in qualifying for the German GP

Massa -
-Team didn't add enough fuel in car in qualifying at Hungary, started P16
-His engine blew from P3 at Monza
-Team order to give up win in Brazil

= Also 2 wet races in the final 7 and he is useless in the wet.

Raikkonen -
In all of the last 7 races, he inherited at least 1 or 2 places due to others misfortune with the exception of China were he had taken the lead when Hamilton spun out. He had no misfortune himself and went on a podium run in the best car.

He was still no better than Massa. Inferior if it was dry.

Hungary - Massa starts p16 due to fuel issue, no comparison.
Turkey - Massa, win and pole
Monza - Massa, qualified ahead and running ahead of Kimi before engine blow
Spa - Kimi, at his best track, narrowly out qualifies Massa by 0.016 and they run the entire race less than 2 seconds apart
Japan - WET race. Massa useless
China - WET race. Massa useless
Brazil - Massa on pole and running ahead before team orders give Kimi win.

The myth is that Kimi was strong in 2007 compared to Massa but then had the car go against him or got lazy for 2008. Massa was the quicker driver in the dry in every season they were paired. Kimi was superior in the wet, I think he beat hm 5-1 in the wet races they were paired. This is also the reason Hamilton was able to win the 2008 title.

BIB: not even remotely true, actually, which kinda makes me wonder about the rest of the post.

Kimi steadily extended his lead to nearly 5.5s until the first pit stops, after which it remained a fairly constant 4-5s gap, otherwise known as managing the race. It only came down to below 2s in the last couple of laps. Unclear where you get them spending the entire race less than 2s apart, but that's simply not an accurate depiction of the facts

Zoue wrote: BIB: not even remotely true, actually, which kinda makes me wonder about the rest of the post.

Kimi steadily extended his lead to nearly 5.5s until the first pit stops, after which it remained a fairly constant 4-5s gap, otherwise known as managing the race. It only came down to below 2s in the last couple of laps. Unclear where you get them spending the entire race less than 2s apart, but that's simply not an accurate depiction of the facts

You are right, my mistake.

Massa did however take pole, fuel adjusted in Spa. But that was the one dry race I put in Kimi's favour anyway and its not to inaccurate. The result was correct, I was just 3 seconds out. The others aren't really debatable. Turkey Massa completely dominated the entire weekend, Monza he out qualified Kimi by 0.7, Brazil everyone knows what happened. Hungary is a no contest as Massa didn't have enough fuel.

Its also well known that Spa is Kimi's best track. It was one of the few races he beat Alonso at in 2014 and I don't think he had ever finished behind a team mate there - until Vettel.

The first half of 2007, Kimi was way behind Massa pace wise. But he got his act together and began to match him by mid season. LDM issued a public warning for him to improve in the middle of 2007, that's how poor the start was.

People seem to revise 2007 like Massa wasn't in the title fight. He had the worst luck of the big 4 drivers and could have easily won the title. With the luck a little bit more even in 2007 and if Massa was just a little better in the wet - he could very easily have 2 WDC's. He only finished 16 points behind Kimi, which would have been 12 without the team order in the final race.

lamo wrote:

Zoue wrote: BIB: not even remotely true, actually, which kinda makes me wonder about the rest of the post.

Kimi steadily extended his lead to nearly 5.5s until the first pit stops, after which it remained a fairly constant 4-5s gap, otherwise known as managing the race. It only came down to below 2s in the last couple of laps. Unclear where you get them spending the entire race less than 2s apart, but that's simply not an accurate depiction of the facts

You are right, my mistake.

Massa did however take pole, fuel adjusted in Spa. But that was the one dry race I put in Kimi's favour anyway and its not to inaccurate. The result was correct, I was just 3 seconds out. The others aren't really debatable. Turkey Massa completely dominated the entire weekend, Monza he out qualified Kimi by 0.7, Brazil everyone knows what happened. Hungary is a no contest as Massa didn't have enough fuel.

Its also well known that Spa is Kimi's best track. It was one of the few races he beat Alonso at in 2014 and I don't think he had ever finished behind a team mate there - until Vettel.

The first half of 2007, Kimi was way behind Massa pace wise. But he got his act together and began to match him by mid season. LDM issued a public warning for him to improve in the middle of 2007, that's how poor the start was.

Just 3 seconds out is quite significant when you claim that they spent the entire race less than 2s apart, don't you think? Especially when you are making out that Kimi wasn't any quicker?

You can understand why I'm questioning your motivation on your post when you say that Massa dominated Turkey, despite the fact that he beat Kimi by less than half a tenth to pole and then they did indeed spend almost the entire race, aside from the closing stages, at around or under 2s apart. This to you is domination, but Kimi allegedly being 2s ahead of Massa at Spa showed that he wasn't any quicker? This is a consistent standard to you?

In Brazil, BTW, it's often overlooked that Kimi set record laps when Massa went into the pits and this undoubtedly contributed to him getting ahead. It wasn't the complete gift that some make it out to be.

Zoue wrote:

lamo wrote:

Zoue wrote: BIB: not even remotely true, actually, which kinda makes me wonder about the rest of the post.

Kimi steadily extended his lead to nearly 5.5s until the first pit stops, after which it remained a fairly constant 4-5s gap, otherwise known as managing the race. It only came down to below 2s in the last couple of laps. Unclear where you get them spending the entire race less than 2s apart, but that's simply not an accurate depiction of the facts

You are right, my mistake.

Massa did however take pole, fuel adjusted in Spa. But that was the one dry race I put in Kimi's favour anyway and its not to inaccurate. The result was correct, I was just 3 seconds out. The others aren't really debatable. Turkey Massa completely dominated the entire weekend, Monza he out qualified Kimi by 0.7, Brazil everyone knows what happened. Hungary is a no contest as Massa didn't have enough fuel.

Its also well known that Spa is Kimi's best track. It was one of the few races he beat Alonso at in 2014 and I don't think he had ever finished behind a team mate there - until Vettel.

The first half of 2007, Kimi was way behind Massa pace wise. But he got his act together and began to match him by mid season. LDM issued a public warning for him to improve in the middle of 2007, that's how poor the start was.

Just 3 seconds out is quite significant when you claim that they spent the entire race less than 2s apart, don't you think? Especially when you are making out that Kimi wasn't any quicker?

You can understand why I'm questioning your motivation on your post when you say that Massa dominated Turkey, despite the fact that he beat Kimi by less than half a tenth to pole and then they did indeed spend almost the entire race, aside from the closing stages, at around or under 2s apart. This to you is domination, but Kimi allegedly being 2s ahead of Massa at Spa showed that he wasn't any quicker? This is a consistent standard to you?

In Brazil, BTW, it's often overlooked that Kimi set record laps when Massa went into the pits and this undoubtedly contributed to him getting ahead. It wasn't the complete gift that some make it out to be.

My overall point is that Kimi was no better than Massa even during his "peak" the 2007 title run in, which I don't think you disagree with?

I said Massa dominated Turkey because he had pole, win, fastest lap but I accept you point. I am merely showing Massa was still beating him during this period, actually more often than not in straight fights (in the dry).

My point is the same, Kimi and Massa were still pretty equal even in the supposed period when Kimi was driving at his best at Ferrari. Kimi's little golden period in 2007 is largely down to circumstance, i.e. all the other title rivals having issues at this time and him not.

Regarding Brazil - team orders were banned. Ferrari ran a strategy that they or no other team with 2 cars fighting for the win have ever run. Done solely, so Kimi could overcut him at the next round and them not get in trouble for team orders. The race was planned out. The two Ferrari's ran close to one another the entire race so that they could switch if the opportunity arose for Kimi to win the title. Massa out qualified him by 0.4 that weekend too.

pokerman wrote:

As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

Interesting, thank you very much. So, Alonso had a bigger advantage over Räikkönen than Vettel.

About the last paragraph, so do you think that Bottas and Vettel are about equally strong?

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

Interesting, thank you very much. So, Alonso had a bigger advantage over Räikkönen than Vettel.

About the last paragraph, so do you think that Bottas and Vettel are about equally strong?

so do you think Bottas and Alonso or more or less equal?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

We can never determine who are the fastest drivers even when they drive the same cars but we sure can decide which are the fastest cars?

Are you suggesting that it's debatable the Mercedes cars have been the quickest since the hybrid era began?

Clearly I'm talking about when cars are reasonably close in performance and we were talking about 2007 and 2008.

AnRs wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:Another myth, the McLaren of 2007 and 2008 Was voted Car of the year and even the driver Said it Was the best car. Why this urge to talk down Lewis cars?

That's because back then it was assumed that both Kimi and Massa were top line drivers, it's also strange considering that Ferrari won the most races, had the most poles and fastest laps, this when fastest laps meant something.

How do both Kimi and Massa stand now alongside the likes of Alonso and Hamilton now, the last 8 years we have seen Kimi and Massa getting thrashed by Alonso and Vettel.

You truly beleive Lewis hasn’t Done any better since the last half of 2007 and 2008?

Probably but the baseline is actually Alonso.

lamo wrote:

pokerman wrote: As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

Thanks, nice stats. Funny, I would have guessed Kimi to be further behind in all of those seasons. Around 0.250 behind two elite drivers actually isn't that bad. Especially considering that he turns 39 this season, maybe 25 year old Kimi could have given Vettel closer competition?

Everything points to that being Kimi's level since 2007 though when he was 28, maybe a 25 year old Kimi on Michelin tyres?

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:Another myth, the McLaren of 2007 and 2008 Was voted Car of the year and even the driver Said it Was the best car. Why this urge to talk down Lewis cars?

That's because back then it was assumed that both Kimi and Massa were top line drivers, it's also strange considering that Ferrari won the most races, had the most poles and fastest laps, this when fastest laps meant something.

How do both Kimi and Massa stand now alongside the likes of Alonso and Hamilton now, the last 8 years we have seen Kimi and Massa getting thrashed by Alonso and Vettel.

You truly beleive Lewis hasn’t Done any better since the last half of 2007 and 2008?

Probably but the baseline is actually Alonso.

He who probably had his worst season?

lamo wrote:

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

Kimi wasn't the fastest in the second half of 2007, he scored the most points, there is a difference.

Like has been explained in previous posts, the other drivers had their bad luck/errors in the second half of the year. Kimi had a trouble free last 7 races.

Alonso -
-Aqua planned out in Japan from P2
-Possibly getting sub prime treatment from Mclaren
-Had a 5 place grid penalty in Hungary

Hamilton -
-Gearbox issue in Brazil
-Error in pit lane entry from P2 in China
-Puncture in Turkish GP
-Wheel failure in qualifying for the German GP

Massa -
-Team didn't add enough fuel in car in qualifying at Hungary, started P16
-His engine blew from P3 at Monza
-Team order to give up win in Brazil

= Also 2 wet races in the final 7 and he is useless in the wet.

Raikkonen -
In all of the last 7 races, he inherited at least 1 or 2 places due to others misfortune with the exception of China were he had taken the lead when Hamilton spun out. He had no misfortune himself and went on a podium run in the best car.

He was still no better than Massa. Inferior if it was dry.

Hungary - Massa starts p16 due to fuel issue, no comparison.
Turkey - Massa, win and pole
Monza - Massa, qualified ahead and running ahead of Kimi before engine blow
Spa - Kimi, at his best track, narrowly out qualifies Massa by 0.016 and they run the entire race less than 2 seconds apart
Japan - WET race. Massa useless
China - WET race. Massa useless
Brazil - Massa on pole and running ahead before team orders give Kimi win.

The myth is that Kimi was strong in 2007 compared to Massa but then had the car go against him or got lazy for 2008. Massa was the quicker driver in the dry in every season they were paired. Kimi was superior in the wet, I think he beat hm 5-1 in the wet races they were paired. This is also the reason Hamilton was able to win the 2008 title.

I have no Idea why you try to paint Ferrari as the best car in 2007 and 2008?
McLaren and their drivers really made a mess of it.
If you have fans and drivers naming McLaren as the best car in both years when it happened why is it so hard to beleive?

If McLaren hadn’t cheated and the drivers worked as a team they would easily taken all titles in 2007 and 2008 in the best car.

Zoue wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

Interesting, thank you very much. So, Alonso had a bigger advantage over Räikkönen than Vettel.

About the last paragraph, so do you think that Bottas and Vettel are about equally strong?

so do you think Bottas and Alonso or more or less equal?

Unfortunately I've only just taking my computer in for repair which has all my data.

Basically it's Alonso > Vettel > Bottas with the gap to Alonso and Bottas being over 1 tenth.

AnRs wrote:
I have no Idea why you try to paint Ferrari as the best car in 2007 and 2008?

McLaren and their drivers really made a mess of it.
If you have fans and drivers naming McLaren as the best car in both years when it happened why is it so hard to beleive?

If McLaren hadn’t cheated and the drivers worked as a team they would easily taken all titles in 2007 and 2008 in the best car.

So was Kimi still the fastest driver in the second half of 2007 or not? You ignored that bit.

Other notable winners of the Autosport Car of the year award-

1990 - Tyrell
1991 - Jordan

Senna did well to pull two titles from his Mclaren?

According to this pole, Kimi was also the best driver and had the best car in 2005 and won no title.

AnRs wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:

pokerman wrote:

AnRs wrote:Another myth, the McLaren of 2007 and 2008 Was voted Car of the year and even the driver Said it Was the best car. Why this urge to talk down Lewis cars?

That's because back then it was assumed that both Kimi and Massa were top line drivers, it's also strange considering that Ferrari won the most races, had the most poles and fastest laps, this when fastest laps meant something.

How do both Kimi and Massa stand now alongside the likes of Alonso and Hamilton now, the last 8 years we have seen Kimi and Massa getting thrashed by Alonso and Vettel.

You truly beleive Lewis hasn’t Done any better since the last half of 2007 and 2008?

Probably but the baseline is actually Alonso.

He who probably had his worst season?

That's very convenient to say that Alonso who has never lacked for speed did so in 2007 and I very much doubt that Hamilton has found 3 tenths since 2007 which is at least the performance gap he has to Kimi and Massa nowadays.

pokerman wrote:As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

Kimi v Vettel on race day was a lot closer in 2016 than Alonso v Massa on race day in 2013 though. Alonso still dominated Massa overall in 2013, like all the other years.

Massa got 1 podium in 2013, Alonso 9.
Ahead when both finished 16-1 to Alonso.

Kimi got 4 podiums in 2016, Vettel got 7.
Ahead when both finished 10-4 to Vettel.

I think qualifying pace can fluctuate a bit but its usually at the cost of race pace. We saw that with Hamilton vs Rosberg through the years.

In these types of scenarios, Vettel 2016, Hamilton 2011, I personally feel the better driver under performs, i.e. Kimi didn't get better in 2016, Vettel just had a bad year. The same with Button in 2011, he was no better, Hamilton had a bad year. Its much easier for a top driver to under perform than an slower driver magically find some pace for one or two seasons only. Hence why I don't buy into the whole "Massa was a top driver for 2007-2008" when the other 14 years of his career were poor/average.

lamo wrote:

AnRs wrote:All of this driver A in season B beat driver C is all an assumption that nothing changes which is IMO wrong. Kimi and Ferrari where the fastest in the second half off 2007. In 2008 none of them had a very good season IMO. Some of these drivers have changed teams multiple Times.

Why is it so hard to believe that F1 fans by then could judge the cars performance?

Kimi wasn't the fastest in the second half of 2007, he scored the most points, there is a difference.

Like has been explained in previous posts, the other drivers had their bad luck/errors in the second half of the year. Kimi had a trouble free last 7 races.

Alonso -
-Aqua planned out in Japan from P2
-Possibly getting sub prime treatment from Mclaren
-Had a 5 place grid penalty in Hungary

Hamilton -
-Gearbox issue in Brazil
-Error in pit lane entry from P2 in China
-Puncture in Turkish GP
-Wheel failure in qualifying for the German GP

Massa -
-Team didn't add enough fuel in car in qualifying at Hungary, started P16
-His engine blew from P3 at Monza
-Team order to give up win in Brazil

= Also 2 wet races in the final 7 and he is useless in the wet.

Raikkonen -
In all of the last 7 races, he inherited at least 1 or 2 places due to others misfortune with the exception of China were he had taken the lead when Hamilton spun out. He had no misfortune himself and went on a podium run in the best car.

He was still no better than Massa. Inferior if it was dry.

Hungary - Massa starts p16 due to fuel issue, no comparison.
Turkey - Massa, win and pole
Monza - Massa, qualified ahead and running ahead of Kimi before engine blow
Spa - Kimi, at his best track, narrowly out qualifies Massa by 0.016 and they run the entire race less than 2 seconds apart
Japan - WET race. Massa useless
China - WET race. Massa useless
Brazil - Massa on pole and running ahead before team orders give Kimi win.

The myth is that Kimi was strong in 2007 compared to Massa but then had the car go against him or got lazy for 2008. Massa was the quicker driver in the dry in every season they were paired. Kimi was superior in the wet, I think he beat hm 5-1 in the wet races they were paired. This is also the reason Hamilton was able to win the 2008 title.

OK but what about Raikkonens "lost" points from Spain? What about his "podium run" in the first 3 races when none of his competitors had dnf's or his back to back wins in France/Germany (again main rivals all running) etc etc.

I just don't see the point of 1) isolating parts of the season or doing "what if's" for some drivers but no others.
Ahead when both finished (Raikkonen vs Massa) in '07 is 9-4 to Raikkonen so even if you correct that for the place Massa gave up it's still 8-5.

It was a close between Massa and Raikkonen but it's stretch to say Massa was quicker that year.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

I don't have all my data to hand at the moment but I still managed to find some bits and bobs.

Peak Gap: Alonso 0.37s, Vettel 0.29s, Diff 0.08s
Avg Gap: Alonso 0.26s, Vettel 0.2s, Diff 0.06s
Low Gap: Alonso 0.17s, Vettel 0.1s, Diff 0.07s

Then like I posted before with the Kimi comparisons the average difference had Alonso 0.08s up on Vettel.

It's interesting how the both of them had a poorish qualifying year, Alonso in 2013 and Vettel in 2016 when the head to heads were quite close but the average gap itself still reasonable higher than you would expect so when they were quicker it was a much bigger gap so often they were being edged out.

So I keep getting consistent results of Alonso being at the least 0.06s quicker than Vettel.

DOLOMITE wrote:
OK but what about Raikkonens "lost" points from Spain? What about his "podium run" in the first 3 races when none of his competitors had dnf's or his back to back wins in France/Germany (again main rivals all running) etc etc.

I just don't see the point of 1) isolating parts of the season or doing "what if's" for some drivers but no others.
Ahead when both finished (Raikkonen vs Massa) in '07 is 9-4 to Raikkonen so even if you correct that for the place Massa gave up it's still 8-5.

It was a close between Massa and Raikkonen but it's stretch to say Massa was quicker that year.

The podium was always 3 from the 4 drivers. So you just had to not be "last" to be on it. His early season three podiums was nothing speciail -

He won in Australia in the dominant Ferrari, as soon as the race finished he got onto the radio and complained about the car and how uncomfortable it was and they needed to fix the car. He spent the entire pre season testing and practise days being around 0.3 slower than Massa. This pattern continued for the first 7 races. He got lucky, Massa blew up in qualifying.

Malaysia, he was set to finish 4th of the 4 before Massa went off track and lost 3-4 places. He was certainly the slowest of the 4 that weekend.

Bahrain, the Ferrari was the best car. Kimi got out qualified by Massa by 0.5 and ran a distant 3rd whilst Hamilton and Massa battled to win. Massa won.

Also, I did not do "what ifs" for one driver and not the other. I stated all the issues each dirver had in the last 7 races, Kimi had none. This was in response to another poster who said how quick he was over the period and how impressive this podium streak was. I was showing why he got so many podiums. In 6 of those 7 races he gained at least 1 place through fortune.

1) If you look at the season as a whole, Kimi is slower. He had a terrible first half pace wise. I was using his best part of the season to highlight that even at his best he wasn't better than Massa.

2) Massa and Kimi's head to head is affected by Massa having 3 qualifying issues but still finishing the races
- Australia, he started last as he blew up in qualifying (Massa at this part of the year was much quicker than Kimi, Massa would have won Australia)
- GB, he started last after a clutch problem on the grid (although Kimi would have likely beaten him that weeked)
- Hungary, he started P16 after Ferrari didn't fuel the car.

- Kimi did start Monaco in P16 because he put the car into the wall in Q2.

Kimi had 2 DNF's - Both times Massa was well ahead of him. Spain and Europe. So Massa lost two head to head points there.

Massa had 2 DNF's - Monza, retiring when ahead of Kimi and Canada he was DSQ'd. I'm not sure but I think Kimi was ahead at that point.

So that 8-5 starts to look a lot different. That becomes 5-5 if you discount the races Massa started from the back and even then, the DNF's are still helping Kimi out. He was well beaten in both Spain and Europe and definitely going to finish behind Massa. This was also likely to be the case in Monza, although Kimi would have finished ahead in Canada. So something like 6-8 in Massa's favour is a fair assumption?

That would become 4-8 in the dry races too and 0-2 in Kimi's favour for the wet ones. We all know Massa is useless in the wet.

Back to my initial point - Kimi was no quicker than Massa in 2007. Massa was definitely quicker in the dry but he also had slightly worst luck than Kimi over the year and made 1 more error.

Even so, in the dry Kimi would have beat him by just 5 points WDC without the Brazil swap and that is with Kimi having 2 none point scores to Massa 3 and Massa starting 3 races at the back of the grid to Kimi's 1 and Kimi's one was due to error whilst all of Massa were mechanical.

lamo wrote: Malaysia, he was set to finish 4th of the 4 before Massa went off track and lost 3-4 places. He was certainly the slowest of the 4 that weekend.

Have to be honest, this is starting to get a little tedious now. I don't know why you feel the need to constantly embellish things with statements that simply aren't true. If you just left it factual, you'd actually make a stronger point.

Fact is Kimi was faster than Massa for 41 laps vs 15. So saying he was slowest of the four that weekend is plain wrong. Even in the chaos of the first five laps, before he went off, Massa was never more than 7 tenths ahead of Kimi. And afterwards, he steadily lost ground, ending up more than 18s adrift. There was only one brief period - between laps 19 and 27 - where he was consistently (bar one lap) quicker than Kimi. the rest of the time it was Kimi all the way.

Now I'd agree with the general point that Kimi and Massa were actually on a par on 2007, but trying to make out that Kimi was the tortoise to Massa's hare is wide of the mark. If you're going to make statements like you have been doing, at least try and ensure they have some basis in fact. Otherwise it just looks like you have some kind of personal agenda and it calls into question the rest of what you write

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

I don't have all my data to hand at the moment but I still managed to find some bits and bobs.

Peak Gap: Alonso 0.37s, Vettel 0.29s, Diff 0.08s
Avg Gap: Alonso 0.26s, Vettel 0.2s, Diff 0.06s
Low Gap: Alonso 0.17s, Vettel 0.1s, Diff 0.07s

Then like I posted before with the Kimi comparisons the average difference had Alonso 0.08s up on Vettel.

It's interesting how the both of them had a poorish qualifying year, Alonso in 2013 and Vettel in 2016 when the head to heads were quite close but the average gap itself still reasonable higher than you would expect so when they were quicker it was a much bigger gap so often they were being edged out.

So I keep getting consistent results of Alonso being at the least 0.06s quicker than Vettel.

You do persist on mismatching datasets, though. The average gap in their first (and only, for Alonso) year together was very close, within 0.04s, which is as near to nothing as makes no odds. Their stats were virtually identical

lamo wrote:He won in Australia in the dominant Ferrari, as soon as the race finished he got onto the radio and complained about the car and how uncomfortable it was and they needed to fix the car. He spent the entire pre season testing and practise days being around 0.3 slower than Massa. This pattern continued for the first 7 races. He got lucky, Massa blew up in qualifying...

...- Australia, he started last as he blew up in qualifying (Massa at this part of the year was much quicker than Kimi, Massa would have won Australia)

This isn't entirely accurate, either. Kimi was faster in final practice at the Australian Grand Prix and also in the first qualifying session. Massa then whacked a curb coming out of the pits in 2nd qualifying, which damaged the car, after which they changed his engine. Not qualifying was not down to his engine blowing up. There isn't any reason to believe that Massa would definitely have been quicker.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:

pokerman wrote:

As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.

Interesting, thank you very much. So, Alonso had a bigger advantage over Räikkönen than Vettel.

About the last paragraph, so do you think that Bottas and Vettel are about equally strong?

so do you think Bottas and Alonso or more or less equal?

Unfortunately I've only just taking my computer in for repair which has all my data.

Basically it's Alonso > Vettel > Bottas with the gap to Alonso and Bottas being over 1 tenth.

Or it's Alonso > Vettel = Bottas? According to your data, I mean.

Zoue wrote:

lamo wrote: Malaysia, he was set to finish 4th of the 4 before Massa went off track and lost 3-4 places. He was certainly the slowest of the 4 that weekend.

Have to be honest, this is starting to get a little tedious now. I don't know why you feel the need to constantly embellish things with statements that simply aren't true. If you just left it factual, you'd actually make a stronger point.

Fact is Kimi was faster than Massa for 41 laps vs 15. So saying he was slowest of the four that weekend is plain wrong. Even in the chaos of the first five laps, before he went off, Massa was never more than 7 tenths ahead of Kimi. And afterwards, he steadily lost ground, ending up more than 18s adrift. There was only one brief period - between laps 19 and 27 - where he was consistently (bar one lap) quicker than Kimi. the rest of the time it was Kimi all the way.

Now I'd agree with the general point that Kimi and Massa were actually on a par on 2007, but trying to make out that Kimi was the tortoise to Massa's hare is wide of the mark. If you're going to make statements like you have been doing, at least try and ensure they have some basis in fact. Otherwise it just looks like you have some kind of personal agenda and it calls into question the rest of what you write

I didn't include Malaysia in the numbers for that reason

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w66y5

Its not slam dunk conclusive, but Massa out qualified him by 0.450.

Hamilton then held up both Ferrari's for lap's 1-7. Massa swarmed all over made him and made 3 attempts to pass Hamilton ultimately going off, losing 7 seconds and dropping back behind a BMW. As soon as he was behind the BMW, Hamilton and Kimi pulled away at over half a second a lap.

Whilst my initial post may have somewhat misleading, I think yours is also equally misleading to ignore the fact Massa was stuck behind the BMW for the entire rest of the race. We don't normally compare race pace of cars stuck in traffic to clean air (or at least much faster traffic which Kimi was in for the first 20 odd laps).

Kimi made no attempt to pass Hamilton, he didn't look as quick as Massa was and the near 0.5 down in qualifying too. But like I said, I didn't include this in the numbers anyway.

Zoue wrote:

lamo wrote:He won in Australia in the dominant Ferrari, as soon as the race finished he got onto the radio and complained about the car and how uncomfortable it was and they needed to fix the car. He spent the entire pre season testing and practise days being around 0.3 slower than Massa. This pattern continued for the first 7 races. He got lucky, Massa blew up in qualifying...

...- Australia, he started last as he blew up in qualifying (Massa at this part of the year was much quicker than Kimi, Massa would have won Australia)

This isn't entirely accurate, either. Kimi was faster in final practice at the Australian Grand Prix and also in the first qualifying session. Massa then whacked a curb coming out of the pits in 2nd qualifying, which damaged the car, after which they changed his engine. Not qualifying was not down to his engine blowing up. There isn't any reason to believe that Massa would definitely have been quicker.

The feeling going into the race was that it was Massa's to lose and that Kimi had been struggling. Something that Kimi confirmed on the radio and in the Press conference, he was struggling and it made an odd post race win interviews, because Kimi wasn't happy.

Kimi's qualifying pace was poor at that part of the year. He was never Massa's match over 1 lap but the early season Massa out qualified him in 6 of the other 7 races until Silverstone. My money would have been on Massa. But again, I didn't include this one in the numbers either.

I did not realise Massa made an error in Australia, but my overall point is about speed. Massa was indeed error prone but my discussion is about pace and ultimately my point is the same - Kimi was never quicker than Massa over any of the seasons and in the dry was was slower, all be it marginally.

lamo wrote:

Zoue wrote:

lamo wrote: Malaysia, he was set to finish 4th of the 4 before Massa went off track and lost 3-4 places. He was certainly the slowest of the 4 that weekend.

Have to be honest, this is starting to get a little tedious now. I don't know why you feel the need to constantly embellish things with statements that simply aren't true. If you just left it factual, you'd actually make a stronger point.

Fact is Kimi was faster than Massa for 41 laps vs 15. So saying he was slowest of the four that weekend is plain wrong. Even in the chaos of the first five laps, before he went off, Massa was never more than 7 tenths ahead of Kimi. And afterwards, he steadily lost ground, ending up more than 18s adrift. There was only one brief period - between laps 19 and 27 - where he was consistently (bar one lap) quicker than Kimi. the rest of the time it was Kimi all the way.

Now I'd agree with the general point that Kimi and Massa were actually on a par on 2007, but trying to make out that Kimi was the tortoise to Massa's hare is wide of the mark. If you're going to make statements like you have been doing, at least try and ensure they have some basis in fact. Otherwise it just looks like you have some kind of personal agenda and it calls into question the rest of what you write

I didn't include Malaysia in the numbers for that reason

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4w66y5

Its not slam dunk conclusive, but Massa out qualified him by 0.450.

Hamilton then held up both Ferrari's for lap's 1-7. Massa swarmed all over made him and made 3 attempts to pass Hamilton ultimately going off, losing 7 seconds and dropping back behind a BMW. As soon as he was behind the BMW, Hamilton and Kimi pulled away at over half a second a lap.

Whilst my initial post may have somewhat misleading, I think yours is also equally misleading to ignore the fact Massa was stuck behind the BMW for the entire rest of the race. We don't normally compare race pace of cars stuck in traffic to clean air (or at least much faster traffic which Kimi was in for the first 20 odd laps).

Kimi made no attempt to pass Hamilton, he didn't look as quick as Massa was and the near 0.5 down in qualifying too. But like I said, I didn't include this in the numbers anyway.

You may not have included it in the numbers, but you wrote that Kimi was certainly the slowest of the four that weekend. He qualified 3rd and spent the entire race faster than Massa. You can't simply assume Massa would have been faster in the race because he qualified faster. There's no need to add commentary like that which cannot be backed up

lamo wrote:

Zoue wrote:

lamo wrote:He won in Australia in the dominant Ferrari, as soon as the race finished he got onto the radio and complained about the car and how uncomfortable it was and they needed to fix the car. He spent the entire pre season testing and practise days being around 0.3 slower than Massa. This pattern continued for the first 7 races. He got lucky, Massa blew up in qualifying...

...- Australia, he started last as he blew up in qualifying (Massa at this part of the year was much quicker than Kimi, Massa would have won Australia)

This isn't entirely accurate, either. Kimi was faster in final practice at the Australian Grand Prix and also in the first qualifying session. Massa then whacked a curb coming out of the pits in 2nd qualifying, which damaged the car, after which they changed his engine. Not qualifying was not down to his engine blowing up. There isn't any reason to believe that Massa would definitely have been quicker.

The feeling going into the race was that it was Massa's to lose and that Kimi had been struggling. Something that Kimi confirmed on the radio and in the Press conference, he was struggling and it made an odd post race win interviews, because Kimi wasn't happy.

Kimi's qualifying pace was poor at that part of the year. He was never Massa's match over 1 lap but the early season Massa out qualified him in 6 of the other 7 races until Silverstone. My money would have been on Massa. But again, I didn't include this one in the numbers either.

I did not realise Massa made an error in Australia, but my overall point is about speed. Massa was indeed error prone but my discussion is about pace and ultimately my point is the same - Kimi was never quicker than Massa over any of the seasons and in the dry was was slower, all be it marginally.

But on the day, when it counts, Kimi was quicker than Massa, both in final practice and in qualifying. You write as though it's a slam dunk that Massa would have been quicker, but that's simply not the case. And it was Massa's own error which put him out. The way you write changes the impression because you make it out as though Kimi was fortunate, but in reality Massa was never quicker than him in final practice, qualifying or the race. Which belies the claim that Kimi was never quicker. It's just not true. And in a post about speed, it's not correct to claim that Massa was quicker in Australia when that was never the case.

Now I'm not saying that Massa was never quicker than Kimi throughout the year, but I've already managed to find several inaccuracies from one post, all to Kimi's detriment, which just makes it look as though you're being creative with the facts in order to paint a false picture. If you would try to be more objective then you have some reasonable points, but the way you write detracts from them

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:As you may know I keep my own records.

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

I don't have all my data to hand at the moment but I still managed to find some bits and bobs.

Peak Gap: Alonso 0.37s, Vettel 0.29s, Diff 0.08s
Avg Gap: Alonso 0.26s, Vettel 0.2s, Diff 0.06s
Low Gap: Alonso 0.17s, Vettel 0.1s, Diff 0.07s

Then like I posted before with the Kimi comparisons the average difference had Alonso 0.08s up on Vettel.

It's interesting how the both of them had a poorish qualifying year, Alonso in 2013 and Vettel in 2016 when the head to heads were quite close but the average gap itself still reasonable higher than you would expect so when they were quicker it was a much bigger gap so often they were being edged out.

So I keep getting consistent results of Alonso being at the least 0.06s quicker than Vettel.

You do persist on mismatching datasets, though. The average gap in their first (and only, for Alonso) year together was very close, within 0.04s, which is as near to nothing as makes no odds. Their stats were virtually identical

I don't cherry pick datasets if that's what you mean, you use everything, the more, the better, anyway my latest post was covering 4 years of Alonso against Massa in comparison to 3 years of Vettel against Kimi with the understanding that Kimi and Massa were very evenly matched when they were teammates.