Who will end their career with the most wins?

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules

Most wins

Vettel, 39 wins, age 27
112
50%
Alonso, 32 wins, age 33
5
2%
Hamilton, 27 wins, age 29
108
48%
 
Total votes: 225

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Invade »

It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:02 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Schermerhorn »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:24 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:55 am
Exediron wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:59 pm
I think there is some credence to his small operating window, it just gets shown up more when teamed up with drivers he can't beat.
Fair point. To be more precise, I do believe he has adaptability problems just like Kimi. What I don't believe (for either of them) is that they are the equal of someone like Hamilton even within that window.
Hamilton has had a lucky ride all of his F1 career and never really had to struggle or known true adversity. We dont know if he would have bootstrapped himself to the top like Alonso did.

Great driver and a front runner. But never had to overcome any resistance.

Just my opinion.
I disagree. 2008 he won the championship without the best car and in 2010 he competed for the championship with a car that was probably 3rd best on average.

Has Vettel driven anything below 3rd best car (until now) since his STR days?
The Mclaren was at least as good as the Ferrari in 2008. Sure, Ferrari has FIA assistance (Spa for example) but they were more or less suited.

In 2010 he still had a race winning car.

To me, "3rd best car" means a car that comes 5th-6th consistently. A car that is capable of regular wins in not the 3rd best car. Sure, some circuits may suit it better but overall its a contending car. Were Lewis' cars better or worse than Schumacher's early Ferraris, which clearly had performance disadvantages relative to Williams and Mclarens?

Let's not pretend he was driving a Minardi to WDC contention. He was ALWAYS in a winning car.

It's Lewis who has always had 1-3 tier cars.

Hey, I'm not taking anything away from him. He's a great driver but he's always been a front runner and never tasted true adversity. It's easy to look great when you're in an elite car.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2850
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

JN23
Posts: 2383
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by JN23 »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:24 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:55 am
Exediron wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:59 pm
I think there is some credence to his small operating window, it just gets shown up more when teamed up with drivers he can't beat.
Fair point. To be more precise, I do believe he has adaptability problems just like Kimi. What I don't believe (for either of them) is that they are the equal of someone like Hamilton even within that window.
Hamilton has had a lucky ride all of his F1 career and never really had to struggle or known true adversity. We dont know if he would have bootstrapped himself to the top like Alonso did.

Great driver and a front runner. But never had to overcome any resistance.

Just my opinion.
I disagree. 2008 he won the championship without the best car and in 2010 he competed for the championship with a car that was probably 3rd best on average.

Has Vettel driven anything below 3rd best car (until now) since his STR days?
The Mclaren was at least as good as the Ferrari in 2008. Sure, Ferrari has FIA assistance (Spa for example) but they were more or less suited.

In 2010 he still had a race winning car.

To me, "3rd best car" means a car that comes 5th-6th consistently. A car that is capable of regular wins in not the 3rd best car. Sure, some circuits may suit it better but overall its a contending car. Were Lewis' cars better or worse than Schumacher's early Ferraris, which clearly had performance disadvantages relative to Williams and Mclarens?

Let's not pretend he was driving a Minardi to WDC contention. He was ALWAYS in a winning car.

It's Lewis who has always had 1-3 tier cars.

Hey, I'm not taking anything away from him. He's a great driver but he's always been a front runner and never tasted true adversity. It's easy to look great when you're in an elite car.
If you look at how Alonso beat Massa and Räikkönen on pace in his time as teammates with the pair of them and the fact Alonso and Hamilton were roughly equal in 2007, does that not mean for Massa in the 2008 Ferrari and Hamilton in the 2008 McLaren to seem evenly matched that the Ferrari must have been better?

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Invade »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
I'm not saying that drivers don't contribute hugely to their own opportunities, but ultimately Schumacher doesn't build the cars. A big part of the reason Toto sees Lewis as an "institution" is the culture he brings to Mercedes. That's all well and good and Hamilton is a top driver who is producing an impressive quality and consistency of performance, but again he doesn't build the car. Both have had a lot of opportunities to win Championships, and Hamilton will end up, if not already, with the most chances of all drivers in history to win the WDC.

Credit to the drivers, who are among the greatest ever, but I doubt they, along with Fangio, were the only drivers who would have won 5+ Championships if the stars had aligned similarly for them. Thus, by default I see these as charmed drivers, by simple virtue of the wealth of opportunities they've been afforded. I think that relative to his level of talent, Vettel is equally charmed or more so. Some drivers are not, such as Alonso, but did he also contribute to his own relative downfall compared to the most accomplished drivers? Well, yes.

I think Max has the talent to win an enormous number of races in the future, but there's simply no guarantee he'll see the wealth of opportunity which Schumacher did and Hamilton is doing. Due to many aspects which are somewhat out of his control, he might end up with just 1 or 2 WDCs or 5-6+. Regardless of how well he leads or builds, an element of luck is involved to see the sort of ridiculous numbers which Schumacher and Hamilton have put up, numbers which are not necessarily representative of the real gap between say, themselves and Senna. They more than double Senna's figures. Or Jim Clark. Of course, both of these drivers died in tragic accidents in the middle of their pomp.

In short, various stars have to align to be as prolific as the likes of Schumacher and Hamilton, and for them those stars aligned emphatically. Did they have something to do with the aligning of those stars? — sure. But not to the extent where their level of success would be predictable or fated were we to play out their careers again in some sort of simulation. In Schumacher's case, as a crude example, I'm interested in the hypothetical in which Senna doesn't die. In Hamilton's case, given the strength of his contemporaries, particularly Alonso, I'm interested to see if the chips fall in drastically different favour were we to play it all out again.

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:55 am
Exediron wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:59 pm
I think there is some credence to his small operating window, it just gets shown up more when teamed up with drivers he can't beat.
Fair point. To be more precise, I do believe he has adaptability problems just like Kimi. What I don't believe (for either of them) is that they are the equal of someone like Hamilton even within that window.
Hamilton has had a lucky ride all of his F1 career and never really had to struggle or known true adversity. We dont know if he would have bootstrapped himself to the top like Alonso did.

Great driver and a front runner. But never had to overcome any resistance.

Just my opinion.
He had one of the greatest challengers of all in his rookie season alongside 2xWDC Alonso.

Vettel did not suvive his challengers against either Ricciardo or presently it seems Leclerc.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:24 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:55 am
Exediron wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 9:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:59 pm
I think there is some credence to his small operating window, it just gets shown up more when teamed up with drivers he can't beat.
Fair point. To be more precise, I do believe he has adaptability problems just like Kimi. What I don't believe (for either of them) is that they are the equal of someone like Hamilton even within that window.
Hamilton has had a lucky ride all of his F1 career and never really had to struggle or known true adversity. We dont know if he would have bootstrapped himself to the top like Alonso did.

Great driver and a front runner. But never had to overcome any resistance.

Just my opinion.
I disagree. 2008 he won the championship without the best car and in 2010 he competed for the championship with a car that was probably 3rd best on average.

Has Vettel driven anything below 3rd best car (until now) since his STR days?
The Mclaren was at least as good as the Ferrari in 2008. Sure, Ferrari has FIA assistance (Spa for example) but they were more or less suited.

In 2010 he still had a race winning car.

To me, "3rd best car" means a car that comes 5th-6th consistently. A car that is capable of regular wins in not the 3rd best car. Sure, some circuits may suit it better but overall its a contending car. Were Lewis' cars better or worse than Schumacher's early Ferraris, which clearly had performance disadvantages relative to Williams and Mclarens?

Let's not pretend he was driving a Minardi to WDC contention. He was ALWAYS in a winning car.

It's Lewis who has always had 1-3 tier cars.

Hey, I'm not taking anything away from him. He's a great driver but he's always been a front runner and never tasted true adversity. It's easy to look great when you're in an elite car.
Does history suggest that the 2008 Ferrari drivers Kimi and Massa are at the same level as Hamilton, how many drivers have to beat them to suggest that is not the case?

So in your theory a race winning car is a title contending car?

That being the case then both Ferrari and Red Bull have had several title contending cars these past few years.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
Please stop this, Mercedes were not a midfield team, Mercedes won in 2012 and also if not disqualification Schumacher would have won in Monaco!

Mercedes qualified on pole but chewed its tyres they were not a midfield team, he joined a team that was front running and everyone in the know knew Mercedes had created a beast of an engine for the new regs which was why he joined them James Allen on F1 had this on his site back in 2012.

Schumacher forever#1
Posts: 2850
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:29 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Schumacher forever#1 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/sch ... ess-brawn/

Schumacher paved the way for glory not once, but twice in his career. Hamilton inherited the team that Schumacher helped lay the foundation for their future success.
"Always believe you will become the best, but never believe you have done so"

User avatar
Invade
Posts: 3053
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Invade »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:17 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/sch ... ess-brawn/

Schumacher paved the way for glory not once, but twice in his career. Hamilton inherited the team that Schumacher helped lay the foundation for their future success.
I'm sure Schumacher helped to raise the belief and morale of teams and was important for culture, but that isn't unique to him. But he did it in a certain way which galvanised the team specifically around himself. Rosberg had to fight for his respect against Schumacher, which he managed of course on the road to producing a superior performance in the team. Ultimately, Mercedes became a Championship force because of their long-term strategy with the PU development and were helped to consolidate that dominance by having a great driver in their lineup. But then my point was never to suggest that these drivers don't have positive influences and impact on the teams they drive for. There are a myriad of factors for the charmed F1 careers of the most prolific winners, but the circumstances of the two here in question were quite different, representative of different eras. When I think of Schumacher I imagine what Federer might've achieved if Nadal and Djokovic had never been born as a basic analogous thought experiment. In Hamilton's case I'm not even sure he's the best pure driver of his era — but then I think Alonso might have been better in pure racing than Hamilton, Schumacher and Senna. For different reasons I see both Hamilton and Schumacher as charmed, but also both as legitimately top-5 all-time, though I don't like placing Hamilton definitively yet as his career is ongoing.

There's an interesting feature here which discusses some of the various pros and cons which come to mind:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14958 ... r-1-driver

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
This is just wrong. Yes, people thought Hamilton was crazy -- but that's because McLaren was considered one of the established top teams at the time, not because Mercedes was so awful.

However, the claim that he walked into a situation 'worse than Schumacher did at Ferrari' is plain rubbish. Hamilton walked into a team that had won both titles only three years ago, and was following a clear upwards trajectory with massive backing from one of the world's largest manufacturers. Schumacher walked into a team that had been a hot mess for over a decade, had no clear direction, and was on anything but an upward trend.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:31 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
Please stop this, Mercedes were not a midfield team, Mercedes won in 2012 and also if not disqualification Schumacher would have won in Monaco!

Mercedes qualified on pole but chewed its tyres they were not a midfield team, he joined a team that was front running and everyone in the know knew Mercedes had created a beast of an engine for the new regs which was why he joined them James Allen on F1 had this on his site back in 2012.
Well there is opinion and then there are facts:-

2012 WDC
9. Rosberg
13. Schumacher

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes

For me that's the definition of a midfield team.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 3:17 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 10:42 am
Invade wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 8:21 am
It is an odd one, but it's easy to see through as well. It would be a bit like saying Vettel has never performed well under pressure in his entire career, which is obviously nonsense. Such statements are obviously hyperbole and driven by something deeply rooted. In the end, it's better to be reasonable.

This particular instance isn't just designed to marginalise Hamilton, but as a byproduct the likes of Alonso, Button and Rosberg are also marginalised, who must have offered, supposedly, no resistance; or indeed the various teams who challenged Hamilton for Championships over the years, who also provided no resistance, or so we might be led to believe.

However, Hamilton has certainly been #blessed, like various other drivers throughout their careers. It's no coincidence that the two most successful drivers ever are arguably the two most charmed. But Hamilton and Schumacher also held up their end of the bargain and spectacularly so. Great work by both lads!
Would you consider Schumacher to be one of the most charmed drivers?

I would argue he spent nearly half of his F1 career being instrumental in building F1 teams to be great. Schumacher spent years building with Ferrari before they became the best team, and, likewise, he spent three years at Mercedes before they turned into a championship winning team. You could argue he created his own luck - but I would argue he created his own success.
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/sch ... ess-brawn/

Schumacher paved the way for glory not once, but twice in his career. Hamilton inherited the team that Schumacher helped lay the foundation for their future success.
It's nice that people pay Schumacher so much respect but we see were Schumacher was able to contribute so much to the 2014 Mercedes despite not driving since 2012, whilst Hamilton contributed so little despite driving the Mercedes the year before.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 7:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
When Hamilton replaced Schumacher at Mercedes they were a midfield team, a lot of people thought he was crazy, his biggest critics were rubbing their hands antcipating his demise saying that he would be another Jacques Villenueve, he initially was walking into a situation worse than what Schumacher did at Ferrari, Schumacher only gets more plaudits because he had to wait longer for success at Ferrari, he served the time so to speak.
This is just wrong. Yes, people thought Hamilton was crazy -- but that's because McLaren was considered one of the established top teams at the time, not because Mercedes was so awful.

However, the claim that he walked into a situation 'worse than Schumacher did at Ferrari' is plain rubbish. Hamilton walked into a team that had won both titles only three years ago, and was following a clear upwards trajectory with massive backing from one of the world's largest manufacturers. Schumacher walked into a team that had been a hot mess for over a decade, had no clear direction, and was on anything but an upward trend.
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

schumilegend
Posts: 280
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by schumilegend »

Dude..If you want to talk about facts - Mercedes from 2014 to 2020 and counting utter domination..In this era of 18-20 races that's 100-120 races of great chance to do pole and very good chance to do win..Ferrari struggled for 5 years before they went on a "dominant" run which probably was 50-55 races at best

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:00 pm
Dude..If you want to talk about facts - Mercedes from 2014 to 2020 and counting utter domination..In this era of 18-20 races that's 100-120 races of great chance to do pole and very good chance to do win..Ferrari struggled for 5 years before they went on a "dominant" run which probably was 50-55 races at best
So my facts were so solid we had to move on past them.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
Many experts didn't foresee the success of Mercedes and now having to read it was all so obvious, sorry it wasn't, did Schumacher himself predict it, afterall some want to now give some credit to Schumacher for it?

With that in mind with such foresight could we then not see given the money that Ferrari started to spend, the people poached from Schumacher's title winning team that Ferrari were building for an upward trajectory, Schumacher just went to Ferrari because they were going to pay him a boat load of money and these plans were intially not in place?
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Siao7
Posts: 8636
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:41 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
Many experts didn't foresee the success of Mercedes and now having to read it was all so obvious, sorry it wasn't, did Schumacher himself predict it, afterall some want to now give some credit to Schumacher for it?

With that in mind with such foresight could we then not see given the money that Ferrari started to spend, the people poached from Schumacher's title winning team that Ferrari were building for an upward trajectory, Schumacher just went to Ferrari because they were going to pay him a boat load of money and these plans were intially not in place?
"Some" wanting to give Schumacher credit include a certain Mr. Brawn... Mercedes was on the up, especially with the stepped ban of the DDD from 2012. The major issue they had was chewing the tyres, once they solved that (coupled with the major changes in the hybrid era) they were unstoppable. The level of domination was more of a surprise than the fact that they dominated in my view.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17831
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Hamilton moved to a team setup and ready to win. He specifically moved there because he saw that.

Schumacher moved to a team that had yet to put a lot of the pieces in place. He moved there specifically because he thought he could be the person that was the catalyst for that.

I'm not making any comment on the scale of any achievement by either driver but to just provide raw data around where each team finished in the WCC the year before without any context does not give a full picture of the different situations those teams were in at the time.

Siao7
Posts: 8636
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:07 am
Hamilton moved to a team setup and ready to win. He specifically moved there because he saw that.

Schumacher moved to a team that had yet to put a lot of the pieces in place. He moved there specifically because he thought he could be the person that was the catalyst for that.

I'm not making any comment on the scale of any achievement by either driver but to just provide raw data around where each team finished in the WCC the year before without any context does not give a full picture of the different situations those teams were in at the time.
I am a Schumacher fan, but I'll be the first to admit that a big part of his move was down to the big (BIIIIIIIG) financial package he managed to secure. And the resurrection (for lack of better wording) of the team was obviously not only down to him, but to the rest of the team that arrived, orchestrated by Todt.

But reading books about that era, it is impossible to ignore the magnitude of what he actually brought to the team, apart of the driving. There was a lot of work that was done that people do not realise.

Mercedes was different, partly because fast forward 20 years and the processes and level of professionalism are much better than in the 90's. Hamilton brings other qualities to the team and it is to his credit that he actually sought to leave Macca in order to develop and challenge himself with another team. Either by luck or a stroke of genius, this move proved the best thing in his career.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17831
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:22 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:07 am
Hamilton moved to a team setup and ready to win. He specifically moved there because he saw that.

Schumacher moved to a team that had yet to put a lot of the pieces in place. He moved there specifically because he thought he could be the person that was the catalyst for that.

I'm not making any comment on the scale of any achievement by either driver but to just provide raw data around where each team finished in the WCC the year before without any context does not give a full picture of the different situations those teams were in at the time.
I am a Schumacher fan, but I'll be the first to admit that a big part of his move was down to the big (BIIIIIIIG) financial package he managed to secure. And the resurrection (for lack of better wording) of the team was obviously not only down to him, but to the rest of the team that arrived, orchestrated by Todt.

But reading books about that era, it is impossible to ignore the magnitude of what he actually brought to the team, apart of the driving. There was a lot of work that was done that people do not realise.

Mercedes was different, partly because fast forward 20 years and the processes and level of professionalism are much better than in the 90's. Hamilton brings other qualities to the team and it is to his credit that he actually sought to leave Macca in order to develop and challenge himself with another team. Either by luck or a stroke of genius, this move proved the best thing in his career.
Absolutely. I'm sure money played a big part as well for Schumacher. Both drivers made gutsy decisions and deserve credit for it.

The difference IMO is that had Mercedes signed Hulkenberg for 2013 instead of Hamilton they still would have dominated the sport from 2014-16. Had Ferrari signed anybody else other than Schumacher for 96 then I honestly don't think they are competing for championships from 1997.

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 1555
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by DOLOMITE »

Always interested in this:

(WDC points to Winning Teams pts)

Ferrari
93 4th (28/168 = 17%)
94 3rd (71/118 = 60%)
95 3rd (73/137 = 53%)
96 - Schumacher joins

Mercedes
10 4th (214/498 = 43%)
11 4th (165/650 = 25%)
12 5th (142/460 = 31%)
13 - Hamilton joins

So neither Ferrari nor Mercedes will really on a convincing upward trajectory.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:41 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
Many experts didn't foresee the success of Mercedes and now having to read it was all so obvious, sorry it wasn't, did Schumacher himself predict it, afterall some want to now give some credit to Schumacher for it?

With that in mind with such foresight could we then not see given the money that Ferrari started to spend, the people poached from Schumacher's title winning team that Ferrari were building for an upward trajectory, Schumacher just went to Ferrari because they were going to pay him a boat load of money and these plans were intially not in place?
"Some" wanting to give Schumacher credit include a certain Mr. Brawn... Mercedes was on the up, especially with the stepped ban of the DDD from 2012. The major issue they had was chewing the tyres, once they solved that (coupled with the major changes in the hybrid era) they were unstoppable. The level of domination was more of a surprise than the fact that they dominated in my view.
Mercedes were not on the up, how can we ignore the actual results they were getting as I've already seen shown by Dolomite, the actual results were in decline, all I'm reading here really is that Hamilton was gifted success and Schumacher earned success, he even earns the success that Hamilton later achieved, I'm seeing a double standard.

Mercedes were still chewing tyres in 2013, people have oracles back in 2012 that told them that the new tyres that had to be introduced in 2014 for the hybrid cars would cause Mercedes far less problems in cars that would be totally different.
Last edited by pokerman on Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Siao7
Posts: 8636
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Siao7 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:47 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:41 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
Many experts didn't foresee the success of Mercedes and now having to read it was all so obvious, sorry it wasn't, did Schumacher himself predict it, afterall some want to now give some credit to Schumacher for it?

With that in mind with such foresight could we then not see given the money that Ferrari started to spend, the people poached from Schumacher's title winning team that Ferrari were building for an upward trajectory, Schumacher just went to Ferrari because they were going to pay him a boat load of money and these plans were intially not in place?
"Some" wanting to give Schumacher credit include a certain Mr. Brawn... Mercedes was on the up, especially with the stepped ban of the DDD from 2012. The major issue they had was chewing the tyres, once they solved that (coupled with the major changes in the hybrid era) they were unstoppable. The level of domination was more of a surprise than the fact that they dominated in my view.
Mercedes were not on the up, how can we ignore the actual results they were getting as I've already seen shown by Dolomite, the actual results were in decline, all I'm reading here really is that Hamilton was gifted success and Schumacher earned success, he even earns the success that Hamilton later achieved, I'm seeing a double standard.

Mercedes were still chewing tyres in 2013, people have oracles back in 2012 that told them that the new tyres that had to be introduced in 2014 for the hybrid cars would cause Mercedes far less problems in cars that would be totally different.
would cause Mercedes less issues
Of course, you always read things as you wish. Better leave it here I'd suggest

A.J.
Posts: 248
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by A.J. »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:25 am
Always interested in this:

(WDC points to Winning Teams pts)

Ferrari
93 4th (28/168 = 17%)
94 3rd (71/118 = 60%)
95 3rd (73/137 = 53%)
96 - Schumacher joins

Mercedes
10 4th (214/498 = 43%)
11 4th (165/650 = 25%)
12 5th (142/460 = 31%)
13 - Hamilton joins

So neither Ferrari nor Mercedes will really on a convincing upward trajectory.
Difference is that Merc was heavily focussed (and IIRC publicly stated) that they were targeting the 2014 rule changes, and were working on their platform for many years prior to Hamilton joining. While nobody could have predicted their domination since, it wasn't a stretch at that time to suggest they were going to be title contenders.

Ferrari in the 80s and 90s were unravelling in their spaghetti culture, much like today - Todt was the architect of fixing it, but Schumacher and Brawn were key pieces too. And the latter two did it again at Merc, laying the foundation for their future success.

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 8132
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Exediron »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Difference is that Merc was heavily focussed (and IIRC publicly stated) that they were targeting the 2014 rule changes, and were working on their platform for many years prior to Hamilton joining. While nobody could have predicted their domination since, it wasn't a stretch at that time to suggest they were going to be title contenders.
But according to pokerman, we're all making that up and no one saw it coming...
PICK 10 COMPETITION (6 wins, 18 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:37 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Difference is that Merc was heavily focussed (and IIRC publicly stated) that they were targeting the 2014 rule changes, and were working on their platform for many years prior to Hamilton joining. While nobody could have predicted their domination since, it wasn't a stretch at that time to suggest they were going to be title contenders.
But according to pokerman, we're all making that up and no one saw it coming...
Maybe some of you guys should look for a job in the industry allbeit when I look through the 2012 threads I don't see the same level of enlightenment, more like the opinion of people who actually work in the industry.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181 ... n-mercedes
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

Rockie
Posts: 2192
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:47 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:41 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:09 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:20 pm
Again the facts:-

2010 WCC
4. Mercedes 214pts (3 podiums)

2011 WCC
4 .Mercedes 165pts (0 podiums)

2012 WCC
5. Mercedes 142pts (1 win, 2 podiums)

The year before Schumacher joined Ferrari:-

1995 WCC
3. Ferrari (1 win, 10 podiums)
You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
Many experts didn't foresee the success of Mercedes and now having to read it was all so obvious, sorry it wasn't, did Schumacher himself predict it, afterall some want to now give some credit to Schumacher for it?

With that in mind with such foresight could we then not see given the money that Ferrari started to spend, the people poached from Schumacher's title winning team that Ferrari were building for an upward trajectory, Schumacher just went to Ferrari because they were going to pay him a boat load of money and these plans were intially not in place?
"Some" wanting to give Schumacher credit include a certain Mr. Brawn... Mercedes was on the up, especially with the stepped ban of the DDD from 2012. The major issue they had was chewing the tyres, once they solved that (coupled with the major changes in the hybrid era) they were unstoppable. The level of domination was more of a surprise than the fact that they dominated in my view.
Mercedes were not on the up, how can we ignore the actual results they were getting as I've already seen shown by Dolomite, the actual results were in decline, all I'm reading here really is that Hamilton was gifted success and Schumacher earned success, he even earns the success that Hamilton later achieved, I'm seeing a double standard.

Mercedes were still chewing tyres in 2013, people have oracles back in 2012 that told them that the new tyres that had to be introduced in 2014 for the hybrid cars would cause Mercedes far less problems in cars that would be totally different.
So you are just going to ignore the illegal tyre test they did which solved their tyre chewing problems.

WHoff78
Posts: 778
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by WHoff78 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:03 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:37 pm
A.J. wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:52 pm
Difference is that Merc was heavily focussed (and IIRC publicly stated) that they were targeting the 2014 rule changes, and were working on their platform for many years prior to Hamilton joining. While nobody could have predicted their domination since, it wasn't a stretch at that time to suggest they were going to be title contenders.
But according to pokerman, we're all making that up and no one saw it coming...
Maybe some of you guys should look for a job in the industry allbeit when I look through the 2012 threads I don't see the same level of enlightenment, more like the opinion of people who actually work in the industry.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181 ... n-mercedes
I think Joe Saward's comments towards the bottom must be one of the most entertaining!!

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:47 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 7:56 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:41 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:09 am


You're right, the 1995 Ferrari was a pretty good car. But the fact remains that there was nothing to suggest Ferrari was on an upward trajectory that would lead to a championship: they had been roughly 3rd in the WCC for years, sometimes slipping down to 4th or as high as 2nd. The car was okay, and no more.

By contrast, everyone knew Mercedes was ramping up their operation and targeting the 2014 regulations to compete at the front. The level of outright dominance they produced was certainly a surprise, but it was no secret that they would become much more competitive in the near future.

And in terms of giving Schumi respect for the turnaround he worked at Ferrari, that's not really comparable. Hamilton may not have been able to foresee the eventual dominance of the Mercedes car, but it was already happening when he joined and it's a huge stretch to say he had much of anything to do with it. Years later Hamilton would indeed make a difference for Mercedes -- by giving them the extra edge they needed to defeat Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 -- but they would have won from 2014-2016 with Rosberg in the car quite easily.

On the other hand, if Schumacher hadn't gone to Ferrari and taken the people with him he took, it's not at all clear Ferrari would have won any of the titles they won with him.
Many experts didn't foresee the success of Mercedes and now having to read it was all so obvious, sorry it wasn't, did Schumacher himself predict it, afterall some want to now give some credit to Schumacher for it?

With that in mind with such foresight could we then not see given the money that Ferrari started to spend, the people poached from Schumacher's title winning team that Ferrari were building for an upward trajectory, Schumacher just went to Ferrari because they were going to pay him a boat load of money and these plans were intially not in place?
"Some" wanting to give Schumacher credit include a certain Mr. Brawn... Mercedes was on the up, especially with the stepped ban of the DDD from 2012. The major issue they had was chewing the tyres, once they solved that (coupled with the major changes in the hybrid era) they were unstoppable. The level of domination was more of a surprise than the fact that they dominated in my view.
Mercedes were not on the up, how can we ignore the actual results they were getting as I've already seen shown by Dolomite, the actual results were in decline, all I'm reading here really is that Hamilton was gifted success and Schumacher earned success, he even earns the success that Hamilton later achieved, I'm seeing a double standard.

Mercedes were still chewing tyres in 2013, people have oracles back in 2012 that told them that the new tyres that had to be introduced in 2014 for the hybrid cars would cause Mercedes far less problems in cars that would be totally different.
So you are just going to ignore the illegal tyre test they did which solved their tyre chewing problems.
The tyres got changed mid season and the tyres used in 2014 changed again, Mercedes managed to win races in the first half of the season but never won a race in the second half of the season.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:52 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:25 am
Always interested in this:

(WDC points to Winning Teams pts)

Ferrari
93 4th (28/168 = 17%)
94 3rd (71/118 = 60%)
95 3rd (73/137 = 53%)
96 - Schumacher joins

Mercedes
10 4th (214/498 = 43%)
11 4th (165/650 = 25%)
12 5th (142/460 = 31%)
13 - Hamilton joins

So neither Ferrari nor Mercedes will really on a convincing upward trajectory.
Difference is that Merc was heavily focussed (and IIRC publicly stated) that they were targeting the 2014 rule changes, and were working on their platform for many years prior to Hamilton joining. While nobody could have predicted their domination since, it wasn't a stretch at that time to suggest they were going to be title contenders.

Ferrari in the 80s and 90s were unravelling in their spaghetti culture, much like today - Todt was the architect of fixing it, but Schumacher and Brawn were key pieces too. And the latter two did it again at Merc, laying the foundation for their future success.
Schumacher again been given credit for the success of Mercedes, poor Rosberg, here's is what people at the time actually thought about Mercedes and who was getting the raw end of the deal, it wasn't Mercedes but Hamilton, apart from his 3 year $100M deal, it's surely lacking a conviction of Mercedes success that we seem to be witnessing in this thread.

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comme ... move_from/
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

j man
Posts: 3494
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by j man »

Lots of revisionism going on here I feel. I don't recall anyone saying at the time that Mercedes was going to be the place to be for 2014. The narrative was pretty much along the lines of every other rules refresh: that it's an opportunity to shake up the order and Mercedes might benefit but there were no solid indications that they were going to get it right any more than Ferrari or Renault/RBR were. Hence the general opinion from the pundits that it was a gamble on Hamilton's part but one that might pay off. However the feeling at the time as far as I remember was that Mercedes were underperforming and hadn't been making the progress that was expected of them; and indeed there were whispers of the board considering pulling out altogether because of a lack of return on their investment.

mikeyg123
Posts: 17831
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by mikeyg123 »

TBF when we know what happened with hindsight what was thought at the time is kind of irrelevant in this discussion. Looking back we can see the pieces were in place for Merc to win in 2014 even if we didn't recognise that at the time.

Is there anyone arguing that if Hamilton hadn't got there in 2013 they wouldn't have been dominant in 2014?

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:03 pm
TBF when we know what happened with hindsight what was thought at the time is kind of irrelevant in this discussion. Looking back we can see the pieces were in place for Merc to win in 2014 even if we didn't recognise that at the time.

Is there anyone arguing that if Hamilton hadn't got there in 2013 they wouldn't have been dominant in 2014?
We seem to be wanting to change the narrative now about the success of Mercedes being so obvious.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

mikeyg123
Posts: 17831
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:25 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:03 pm
TBF when we know what happened with hindsight what was thought at the time is kind of irrelevant in this discussion. Looking back we can see the pieces were in place for Merc to win in 2014 even if we didn't recognise that at the time.

Is there anyone arguing that if Hamilton hadn't got there in 2013 they wouldn't have been dominant in 2014?
We seem to be wanting to change the narrative now about the success of Mercedes being so obvious.
I've not commented on that. I've not commented because as I said I don't find it relevant to the topic. We know much more now than we did in 2012.

pokerman
Posts: 35338
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:44 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:25 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:03 pm
TBF when we know what happened with hindsight what was thought at the time is kind of irrelevant in this discussion. Looking back we can see the pieces were in place for Merc to win in 2014 even if we didn't recognise that at the time.

Is there anyone arguing that if Hamilton hadn't got there in 2013 they wouldn't have been dominant in 2014?
We seem to be wanting to change the narrative now about the success of Mercedes being so obvious.
I've not commented on that. I've not commented because as I said I don't find it relevant to the topic. We know much more now than we did in 2012.
How much do you actually know?

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/185779/1/ ... 013-budget
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)

User avatar
mmi16
Posts: 472
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2003 8:25 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by mmi16 »

Seems that the recurring 'argument' in this discussion is the application of White privilege in the racing world.

Schumacher and Hamilton are both the best of their competition eras.
Image

mikeyg123
Posts: 17831
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Who will end their career with the most wins?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:40 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:44 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:25 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:03 pm
TBF when we know what happened with hindsight what was thought at the time is kind of irrelevant in this discussion. Looking back we can see the pieces were in place for Merc to win in 2014 even if we didn't recognise that at the time.

Is there anyone arguing that if Hamilton hadn't got there in 2013 they wouldn't have been dominant in 2014?
We seem to be wanting to change the narrative now about the success of Mercedes being so obvious.
I've not commented on that. I've not commented because as I said I don't find it relevant to the topic. We know much more now than we did in 2012.
How much do you actually know?

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/185779/1/ ... 013-budget
At this stage I can only assume you're doing that thing that you do and repeatedly pretend to totally miss the point over and over and over and over again until the other person just gives up.

Post Reply