Was Vettel a mirage?

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
racerrr
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:46 am

Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by racerrr »

After 4 consecutive championships, it's hard to say Sebastian Vettel is a "flash in the pan", but after Hungary today, I'm really beginning to wonder. Ricciardo is making him look bad. Real bad. The reduction of downforce for the cars this season looks like it's affecting him more than any other driver. Maybe it's taking him longer than others to adjust, and he will get his mojo back later but for right now, he's definitely not Red Bull's number one.

User avatar
James14
Posts: 1098
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:53 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by James14 »

It looks like he is missing the downforce a lot. I think he is slowly adapting and was doing well until his spin.
Ricciardo is just magic at the moment though, absolutely brilliant.

silkjet

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by silkjet »

Time will tell. I doubt it. It's too early for him to succumb to Steve Blass disease:

Besides MVP performance in a World Series, Blass is best known for his sudden and inexplicable loss of control after the 1972 season.

A condition referred to as "Steve Blass disease" has become a part of baseball lexicon. The "diagnosis" is applied to talented players who inexplicably and permanently seem to lose their ability to throw a baseball accurately.

User avatar
bourbon19
Posts: 2225
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:31 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by bourbon19 »

He did well before and after the spin. I doubt 1 mistake combined with a bit of bad luck with the first SC is reason to go bonkers.

Blinky McSquinty

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.

CanadianDan
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:22 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by CanadianDan »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.


Fact... How many points does vetted get from being faster on Fridays and Saturdays?

Whilst I agree the strategy was odd to favour the second drivers (probably as they thought it wouldn't work as well) Dan seems to be able to pull out that extra little when he is racing at the front. Vettel is just unfortunate to not have a car to his liking. I would be interested to see how they both perform when/if Seb finds his mojo again...
2015 Predictions
1) Williams to win a Race (probably at the hands of Bottas)
2) Jenson Button to beat Fernando Alonso... but only just
3) McLaren to score at least 1 point... but to spend the season fighting with Manor-

Blinky McSquinty

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Blinky McSquinty »

CanadianDan wrote:Fact... How many points does vetted get from being faster on Fridays and Saturdays?


Zero, and a valid point. But my point is that at Hungary, Vettel was not dominated by Ricciardo. He proved that he is coming to grips with the car and is just as quick as Ricciardo. He has not turned into a lump of coal.

oz_karter
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 11:29 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by oz_karter »

Instead of thinking of this year as a reflection on Vettel, consider just how good Ricciardo might be.

Vettel won 4 WDCs and proved he was fast. Very fast.

Ricciardo needed a chance to prove himself, and so far the signs point to him being even better...

beanchimp
Posts: 1986
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:15 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by beanchimp »

Vettel has become the Webber of Red Bull

j man
Posts: 3529
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Location: UK

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by j man »

Vettel and Ricciardo have been closer than the points standings and head-to-head record would suggest. Vettel has been quite unlucky at times with a number of mechanical failures, and as has already been pointed out, had the upper hand on Ricciardo all weekend until the timing of the safety car spoiled his race somewhat. It's far too premature to start labelling him a one-trick pony who could only excel in the blown diffuser era.

It was interesting listening to Lewis Hamilton's post-race interview when he was asked about Vettel's spin. He said that he'd seen Vettel running onto the wet astroturf lap after lap and wasn't massively surprised when it finally caught him out. Personally I am just surprised that a driver of Vettel's calibre wouldn't appreciate the risk of running over the astroturf strip in the wet; maybe he is still not used to the loss in rear downforce.

mac_d
Posts: 4231
Joined: Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:41 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by mac_d »

I believe Vettel is one of the "top tier" drivers of this time. Ricciardo might also prove to be.

And Rosberg, Bottas and Vettel all missed the ideal pit window in the first safety car period. This screwed them over big time compared to 4th downwards who we closer to the right place at the right time.

Over the season though, Vettel has had one more DNF (I'll call RIC's DSQ from OZ a DNF since it wasn't his fault). Ricciardo has 2 wins, Vettel has 0. Finishing Positions Average: RIC 3.67, Vettel 4.625. Of the 7 races both have finished, Ricciardo has been ahead 6 of those times. Perhaps the car doesn't suit him (if you find that a valid excuse).

If Ricciardo goes on to be one of the greats, lots of wins, WDCs, rapturous applause heaped upon his many talents etc then it changes the view. If Ricciardo proves to be rather average (which I doubt) then it shades the whole thing completely differently. Trouble is, Ricciardo is only getting a car to REALLY show his talents now. Vettel also managed 8th in his first GP with reasonably short notice and managed a win in a Toro Rosso (helped by the fact, iirc, Ferrari cocked up and Hamilton cocked up. And Bourdais ended up in 3rd after qualy. And the only McLaren near him was Kovi... who wasn't the fastest guy going.


In short, I don't think so. And part of it depends on the view people have of Danny Ric.

User avatar
Guia
Posts: 2825
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:59 pm
Location: Round the Bend

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Guia »

CanadianDan wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.

Fact... How many points does vetted get from being faster on Fridays and Saturdays?

Fact: That's not a fact, it's a question.

User avatar
moby
Posts: 8072
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by moby »

Different cars guys. May be last years car would have finished infront of DR every time, but then again, who knows. :D

davidheath461
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by davidheath461 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.


Being faster in FP counts for nothing. In qualifying Ricciardo has a broken rear wing.

At the start, Vettel went from 2nd to 4th. He lost as many places as Ricciardo, yet according to you, this is a credible job from Vettel, but not from Ricciardo. He did well to repass Alonso though and was right on Bottas' tail during the first stint.

Safety screwed him over along with the rest of the top 4. From there, he could have still recovered. Alonso finished 2nd, Rosberg finished 4th. At the very least, Vettel should have followed Rosberg home for 5th. Instead he made a big mistake coming out of the final corner, and only just held off Bottas for 7th place.

Circumstances favoured Ricciardo this weekend. But remember, last weekend it was the opposite, and circumstances went against Ricciardo, yet he still did an excellent job to recover to 6th place.

If anything, it's you that has an agenda.

davidheath461
Posts: 2000
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:11 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by davidheath461 »

moby wrote:Different cars guys. May be last years car would have finished infront of DR every time, but then again, who knows. :D


In the Silverstone test last year, Ricciardo was already setting times close to Vettel's and Webber's. This is what really convinced Red Bull to hire him.

Robbo-92
Posts: 2033
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 4:14 pm
Location: South Yorkshire

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Robbo-92 »

Blinky McSquinty wrote:Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.


This :thumbup:
Team Vettel, Ricciardo, Bottas and Button.

racerrr
Posts: 34
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:46 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by racerrr »

Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.


LOL, no agenda from me. I was just trying to have a reasonable discussion with other fans about what's going on with Seb. Just because you are a Vettel fan, it doesn't mean someone has an "agenda" when they state the truth about Ricciardo outrunning him. I'm a McLaren fan, but I can't disagree with anyone who says they suck right now. They do. It sucks for them, it sucks for me, but facts are facts.

User avatar
Peter77
Posts: 842
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:35 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Peter77 »

Robbo-92 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.


This :thumbup:


Practise sessions for starters do not mean much. In qualifying Ricciardo supposedly had a rear wing problem hampering him. Not to sure about this but somebody else mentioned it in the forum earlier.

The first safety car helped Ricciardo and penalised Vettel yes. But the second safety car ruined the massive lead Ricciardo had built up at the front and forced him to pitt early due to taking to much life out of the tyres building the huge lead and put him back stuck behind cars in the pack.

Vettel was behind Alonso with a much quicker car after the 2nd safety car. Alonso ended up 2nd. Vettel at 7th.
Why? very poor driving. Even hamilton who was behind Vettel said he saw him lap after lap going off the track on to the slippery part and thought wow he will spin any minute. So it was not a 1 off mistake vettel did. He tried it many many times till finally it got him and by a miracle he just clipped the wall and kept going unlike another driver who did this earlier.
Ricciardo all race and all year has made no mistakes at all. The true sign of a world class driver. He drives faster than Vettel and not 1 mistake anywhere. Not during overtaking, not defending nothing. Pure perfection especially in Hungary.

Secondly people think it was so easy for Ricciardo to go from 4th to 1st and Vettel would have done the same?
No way. Not with the sloppy way he was driving at Hungary which Hamilton confirmed.
Rosberg with a much much faster rocketship could not overtake verge. Behind Hamilton on fresher tyres he could not pass him either. Even Hamilton with a much much faster car could not pass Alonso near the end.

Yet Ricciardo the magician went late on brakes drove right beyond the limit incredible late braking and fair racing and overtook both Hamilton and Alonso for the win right at the end. Overtook 2 world champions who are the best defenders on the grid also. Not even Rosberg with much fresher tyres at the end and a car 2 seconds quicker as he caught Hamilton with his eyes closed could get past Hamilton.

Ricciardo at Hungary drove an absolute brilliant race with no mistakes and incredible overtaking near the end which no other driver with even faster cars could pull off.. Vettel did not do anything special in the race. Hamilton confirmed the sloppy mistake vettel made lap after lap. Near the end hardly anybody else pulled an overtaking move. Even behind Vettel Bottas with a much faster car could not find a way past at all. Nobody near the end made any decent overtakes bar Ricciardo.
Vettel should have been on the tractor being towed home but by miracle the car didnt hit the wall very hard.

Ricciardo drove a 10 out of 10 race. There is nothing he could have done better or 1 mistake i could see. Just aggression, perfection, speed and patience near the end for the pounce.
Vettel at hungary does not even rate a mention with his poor driving.
The only other driver who did magic at Hungary was Alonso. Putting the 4th fastest car in 2nd.
Last edited by Peter77 on Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Talented drivers adapt, the mediocre ones complain."

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 915
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Scotland & Abu Dhabi

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Badgeronimous »

1st safety car made Ricciardo' s race and severely compromised Vettels. It's a little unfair to compare them today.

Don't get me wrong, I do think Vettels statistics between 09 - 13 flatter him and he is not as good as his stats in this time suggest.

But.... he is a great driver who is struggling a bit to adapt to the new regulations. Vettel will win races again. Another WDC remains to be seen, but he has the experience and ability.

LukeMallory
Posts: 179
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by LukeMallory »

Whatever about how quick Vettel was in practice and qualifying - even in the race - I believe the question is valid. Shouldn't a 4 time world champion (and, therefore, you would hope, just about the best on the grid) be able to handle a newcomer?

I don't like Vettel, but I always thought he was damned good. Still think he's damned good to be honest. But now I'm just not sure how damned good he is. This season has created a lot of question marks and, in order to validate the last 4 years, I was kinda hoping he'd destroy Dannyboy. Instead he hasn't at, partially down to bad luck, and I'm not sure what's going on.

So is Vettel not that great or is Dannyboy just superb. I hope he is, but I don't have a clue.

Alonso has literally destroyed established names, the latest being Kimi. Hamilton has proved himself having teamed with Alonso and, though luck / mentality wasn't always on his side, seemed faster than Button. Rosberg went up against an aging driver I'm not allowed to mention anymore, but has now proved his pace against Hamilton. Button has demonstrated that he's about the same level as Perez, who appears to be about the same level as Hulkster, minus the consistency. We know how far off Alonso Massa was, which validates Bottas, as he's beating Massa, too. Given Kimi's performance this year, we now have to wonder about Grosjean. He was miles off Alonso in 2009, and this was put down to not knowing the car and inexperience. We assumed that when he came back in 2012 and 13, he had improved. But has he? He'd probably be miles off Alonso again today.

So, all of these guys above, we have some relative information about.

But Vettel remains in his own little RBR bubble. The only way we'll ever know just how fast he is, is if he leaves. Suddenly that looks like a big risk. Even Ferrari must surely be asking what's up?

User avatar
hittheapex
Posts: 2304
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:32 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by hittheapex »

racerrr wrote:
Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.


LOL, no agenda from me. I was just trying to have a reasonable discussion with other fans about what's going on with Seb. Just because you are a Vettel fan, it doesn't mean someone has an "agenda" when they state the truth about Ricciardo outrunning him. I'm a McLaren fan, but I can't disagree with anyone who says they suck right now. They do. It sucks for them, it sucks for me, but facts are facts.


How do you surmise that somebody disagreeing with you is automatically a Vettel fan, then imply that they must be less impartial then your good self?
"Jean Alesi is using the Maginot Line policy-You shall not pass!"-Murray Walker

mrlimbo
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:38 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by mrlimbo »

Well some of us have stated for years that , it was the car much more than the driver and this year we get the proof , not that we needed any , but now nobody can argue the point :)

hotbmw
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 6:49 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by hotbmw »

Why didnt Vetel push hard and overtake a few cars and say finish 5th?
Where was he all race? It seems a passenger.
He came out on fresh new tyres after his last stop right behind raikonen who had a few laps on his tyres already. But instead of slowly overtaking raikonen or being on his tail in the final laps vetel kept dropping further and further behind. at one point i saw he was 9 seconds behind. thats poor!

iknownothing
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:04 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by iknownothing »

Peter77 wrote:
Robbo-92 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:Wow, some people definitely have an agenda. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 1st practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 2nd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in 3rd practice. Fact: at Hungary Vettel was quicker than Ricciardo in qualifying.

At the start Vettel does a credible job while Ricciadro drops from 4th to 6th. The safety car and weird strategy of keeping the leaders out and putting the team's second car on alternate strategies screws up the top drivers in the final result. Only Alonso recovered from that with a brilliant drive that definitely earns him great praise saved his day.

I don't want to take away anything from Ricciardo, he drove a fantastic race. But what circumstances favored Ricciardo handicapped Vettel.


This :thumbup:


Practise sessions for starters do not mean much. In qualifying Ricciardo supposedly had a rear wing problem hampering him. Not to sure about this but somebody else mentioned it in the forum earlier.

The first safety car helped Ricciardo and penalised Vettel yes. But the second safety car ruined the massive lead Ricciardo had built up at the front and forced him to pitt early due to taking to much life out of the tyres building the huge lead and put him back stuck behind cars in the pack.

Vettel was behind Alonso with a much quicker car after the 2nd safety car. Alonso ended up 2nd. Vettel at 7th.
Why? very poor driving. Even hamilton who was behind Vettel said he saw him lap after lap going off the track on to the slippery part and thought wow he will spin any minute. So it was not a 1 off mistake vettel did. He tried it many many times till finally it got him and by a miracle he just clipped the wall and kept going unlike another driver who did this earlier.
Ricciardo all race and all year has made no mistakes at all. The true sign of a world class driver. He drives faster than Vettel and not 1 mistake anywhere. Not during overtaking, not defending nothing. Pure perfection especially in Hungary.

Secondly people think it was so easy for Ricciardo to go from 4th to 1st and Vettel would have done the same?
No way. Not with the sloppy way he was driving at Hungary which Hamilton confirmed.
Rosberg with a much much faster rocketship could not overtake verge. Behind Hamilton on fresher tyres he could not pass him either. Even Hamilton with a much much faster car could not pass Alonso near the end.

Yet Ricciardo the magician went late on brakes drove right beyond the limit incredible late braking and fair racing and overtook both Hamilton and Alonso for the win right at the end. Overtook 2 world champions who are the best defenders on the grid also. Not even Rosberg with much fresher tyres at the end and a car 2 seconds quicker as he caught Hamilton with his eyes closed could get past Hamilton.

Ricciardo at Hungary drove an absolute brilliant race with no mistakes and incredible overtaking near the end which no other driver with even faster cars could pull off.. Vettel did not do anything special in the race. Hamilton confirmed the sloppy mistake vettel made lap after lap. Near the end hardly anybody else pulled an overtaking move. Even behind Vettel Bottas with a much faster car could not find a way past at all. Nobody near the end made any decent overtakes bar Ricciardo.
Vettel should have been on the tractor being towed home but by miracle the car didnt hit the wall very hard.

Ricciardo drove a 10 out of 10 race. There is nothing he could have done better or 1 mistake i could see. Just aggression, perfection, speed and patience near the end for the pounce.
Vettel at hungary does not even rate a mention with his poor driving.
The only other driver who did magic at Hungary was Alonso. Putting the 4th fastest car in 2nd.


That Ricciardo drove a 10 out of 10 race is the only thing you are correct about.

The first safety car ruined or damaged just about everyone from fourth down. This greatly helped lewis at the expense of Rosberg (and I think there was a 9 place swing from Daniel to Seb). Still, though, due to the speed of the Mercedes, it was probably only Lewis' balking of Nico that kept Nico from winning.

Why couldn't Vettel pass Kimi? Probably because he was on primes waiting for those in front to pit. While those in front simply stayed out on worn out options. It was a poor strategy call.

Running wide there isn't so much a driving error as it was a gamble. Vettel is a guy that likes to keep his foot as far down as possible and use all of the track. It's worked for him pretty well so far in his career. But, some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you. In any event, it didn't cost him much.

That he didn't hit the wall that hard was more than luck though. Watch the in-car replay and pay special attention to when he gets off the breaks. Saved his race.

At the end of the race Hamilton and Alonso's tires were so far gone that their breaking zones were a lot longer than Ricciardo's. They couldn't even make a decent defensive move. They were essentially racing each other and not him. I think Hamilton had lost something like 4 seconds off his lap time. It was a great strategy by red bull, and very well executed by Ricciardo - which is all you can ask of any driver. But it was not miraculous. It was the opposite, it was inevitable.

iknownothing
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:04 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by iknownothing »

hotbmw wrote:Why didnt Vetel push hard and overtake a few cars and say finish 5th?
Where was he all race? It seems a passenger.
He came out on fresh new tyres after his last stop right behind raikonen who had a few laps on his tyres already. But instead of slowly overtaking raikonen or being on his tail in the final laps vetel kept dropping further and further behind. at one point i saw he was 9 seconds behind. thats poor!


Kimi had the faster tire. And seb was driving to a delta as Red Bull thought Kimi et al would pit again.

iknownothing
Posts: 52
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 11:04 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by iknownothing »

mrlimbo wrote:Well some of us have stated for years that , it was the car much more than the driver and this year we get the proof , not that we needed any , but now nobody can argue the point :)


Watch me
1. There are some people who though that vettel would eventually be a world champion from the moment he went fastest in free practice while still racing in junior formula. Those people have already been proven right over and over again.

2. This post is a perfect example of confirmation bias. You are ignoring a mountain of evidence to the contrary to support a previously held position. To strengthen your point you would need to be able to put Ricciardo is last years car for four season - can't happen.

3. The same evidence that was used to enshrine Hamilton is being used to invalidate Vettel. When Hamilton (a nobody) beats Alonso (a two time champ), it's because Hamilton is great. When Ricciardo (a nobody) is beating Vettel (a four time champ) it's because Vettel isn't that good. You can't have it both ways.

For myself I think Daniel is doing a slightly better job than Seb that's being exaggerated by bad luck and some dubious strategy calls.

User avatar
infi24r
Posts: 2203
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:41 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by infi24r »

He's better than the haters give him credit for saying it was "just the car".

He's not as good as the fanboys and media have rated him for the last few years.

lbennie
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:30 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by lbennie »

No, Danny Ric is just very, very, very good.

trento
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:06 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by trento »

Put it simply, Ricciardo is driving like Alonso.

JMILAT
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 7:06 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by JMILAT »

Ricciardo has been generally quicker but this race Ricciardo was doing nothing until the safety car came out which through zero doing of his own put him straight into the lead. All the top four were very unlucky. Even Rosberg and Bottas did nothing after that, only Alonso recovered which says more about him than anything else.

Whilst I do agree it is becoming cleared that Vettel was never really the best over the last few years and had the benefit of the amazing Red Bull cars, you definetly can't base it off this race where without the first safety car he would almost certainly have easily beat Ricciardo. But on a whole Ricciardo looks faster and when you look at how close Webber was despite his age a picture starts to form that Vettel whilst certainly good, maybe even very good, does not really walk among the best of all times (Schumacher, Senna, Prost).

I don't subscribe to the idea that he's just struggling with the car. Nearly everytime that comes up it very rarely works out how people expect it to. Vettel might find another tenth or two and get back on terms with Ricciardo or even slightly ahead, but I really doubt he's going to destroy him. It's going to be close.

User avatar
specdecible
Posts: 2904
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by specdecible »

Image

Image

hmm, I don't see the resemblance... I guess they're both blue???
Danger is real, fear is choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco '12 & '15, Silverstone '14, Austria '15, Mexico '15, China '16)
Podiums: 11
2018 Championship Standing: oh jeez...

healey
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 8:34 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by healey »

In cricket and golf it's known as "The Yips".

silkjet wrote:Time will tell. I doubt it. It's too early for him to succumb to Steve Blass disease:

Besides MVP performance in a World Series, Blass is best known for his sudden and inexplicable loss of control after the 1972 season.

A condition referred to as "Steve Blass disease" has become a part of baseball lexicon. The "diagnosis" is applied to talented players who inexplicably and permanently seem to lose their ability to throw a baseball accurately.

lbennie
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:30 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by lbennie »

LukeMallory wrote:But Vettel remains in his own little RBR bubble. The only way we'll ever know just how fast he is, is if he leaves. Suddenly that looks like a big risk. Even Ferrari must surely be asking what's up?


No one ever mentions Webber v Rosberg....

User avatar
specdecible
Posts: 2904
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by specdecible »

lbennie wrote:
LukeMallory wrote:But Vettel remains in his own little RBR bubble. The only way we'll ever know just how fast he is, is if he leaves. Suddenly that looks like a big risk. Even Ferrari must surely be asking what's up?


No one ever mentions Webber v Rosberg....

Maybe because it was 8 years ago and Rosberg's rookie season
Danger is real, fear is choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco '12 & '15, Silverstone '14, Austria '15, Mexico '15, China '16)
Podiums: 11
2018 Championship Standing: oh jeez...

lbennie
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 5:30 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by lbennie »

specdecible wrote:
lbennie wrote:
LukeMallory wrote:But Vettel remains in his own little RBR bubble. The only way we'll ever know just how fast he is, is if he leaves. Suddenly that looks like a big risk. Even Ferrari must surely be asking what's up?


No one ever mentions Webber v Rosberg....

Maybe because it was 8 years ago and Rosberg's rookie season


But hes using data from Hamilton's rookie season 7 years ago in his analysis?

User avatar
specdecible
Posts: 2904
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:06 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by specdecible »

lbennie wrote:
specdecible wrote:
lbennie wrote:
LukeMallory wrote:But Vettel remains in his own little RBR bubble. The only way we'll ever know just how fast he is, is if he leaves. Suddenly that looks like a big risk. Even Ferrari must surely be asking what's up?


No one ever mentions Webber v Rosberg....

Maybe because it was 8 years ago and Rosberg's rookie season


But hes using data from Hamilton's rookie season 7 years ago in his analysis?

I have lost track of this conversation even before I commented... I think I'll be leaving now
Danger is real, fear is choice.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
Best Round Result: 1st (Monaco '12 & '15, Silverstone '14, Austria '15, Mexico '15, China '16)
Podiums: 11
2018 Championship Standing: oh jeez...

steoc4
Posts: 636
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:37 am

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by steoc4 »

Vettel was well ahead and would have comfortably beaten Ricciardo this race if not for the safety car. Last race, he did beat Ricciardo and all people talked about was how unlucky Ricciardo was and still called him driver of the day. There's a lot more luck involved in being screwed by the safety car than there is in getting caught out by a turn one incident - there's always the possibility you could have done something to get through turn one better, where there is absolutely nothing you can do when the safety car comes out just as you pass the pitlane and your teammate is given a free pitstop and track position over you.

In both of Daniel's wins Seb had spent the first half of the race beating him until a safety car or bad strategy call messed him up. Daniel is doing a superb job this year but Vettel is driving a lot better than the results suggest, having suffered from a lot of mechanical issues and bad luck.

Bacus
Posts: 978
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Bacus »

No, I think Vettel still drives very good, just that Ric doesn't make any mystakes and he's super fast.
With Vettel it's more a thing of suiting the new driving style, I don't think on the past car specifications Ric would stand a chance to beat him. Ric has a very 'composed' driving style and that helps very much for this year's cars.

In this race Vettel took the things to the very limit (like many times this year), that's why he managed to stay in front of Lewis for so many laps, because of that edgy exit of the last corner, and that's why also he spun, he was just pushing too hard there. The great pressure from Ham also provoked that.
Other than that Vettel was doing a great job this weekend, and seemed overall to have the upper hand over Ric.

I think in the end Vettel would still be able to at list match Ric.

I wouldn't imagine myself ever to defend Vettel, but there you go :D

Migen
Posts: 805
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Migen »

Peter77 wrote:Practise sessions for starters do not mean much.


I find that quite amusing coming from you... I`ve lost count at how many times you used young drivers test results as benchmark.

User avatar
Toby.
Posts: 2834
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:09 am
Location: Perth, Australia

Re: Was Vettel a mirage?

Post by Toby. »

Best case scenario for the fans is Ricciardo besting Vettel this year and Seb thinking he's got to prove it was a one-off. He goes to Ferrari to take on the sleeping giant. We thought Raikkonen-Alonso woulf be exciting and it's been lukewarm. What about Seb v Fernando? I'd love to see it.
Image

Post Reply