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Zoue wrote:There's just no pleasing some people. Whitmarsh was castigated for being "too nice," and now when Ron shows a little bit of steel he's accused of throwing his weight around. And he's hardly been frothing at the mouth, either. I don't see that he's said anything controversial, personally

For me as a driver fan more than a team fan I'll say this. When Ron departed the team McLarens image was poor to say the least for various reasons. MW restored their image and carried out his job with a quiet dignity which won my respect back anyway. To me anyway Ron is a bit of a dinosaur. A throwback to a previous era. A team now has to have unity and freedom to be creative and innovative. Personally I do not think ruling with an iron fist and and having an aura of fear cuts any ice any more. Fear and politics have seriously hindered the likes of Ferrari and I do not think it will help McLaren going forward. I'm not convinced Button could have done a lot more with the equipment at his disposal.

Whitmarsh actually made their image worse.

DrJones wrote:Dennis thought he could boot out the team manager replace him with Eric and all would be OK.However Dennis is interfering in Mcclarens come back finding it beyond his abilities to bring back success to the team and is desperate. Rons desperation is destroying everything that is good within the team and moral is very low due to this. Like Alonso Jensen has held this team together..it was very telling what his engineer told him at the end of the socchi race. 'Yet another smooth professional drive'!

JB is very talented but like all human failure you don't recognise what you have until its gone.....Dennis must now be squeesed out as he is not adding value here.

You're basing the above on what, exactly?

Dennis inherited a design from the previous management. He took over in January and commenced with a complete overhaul and restructure of the team. Just how was he supposed to influence the team to improve overnight? He brought in EB to start in February, I believe. Again, what magic wand was he supposed to wave? It takes time to turn things around, especially in F1 when so many things are restricted. And what evidence is there anywhere that "Jenson has held this team together?" Just because he got congratulated after a race?

The fact is McLaren had a duff car this year. But there have been signs of some improvement and Jenson at least has been getting some pretty decent results in recently. I'm a bit disappointed with KM but in the last few races the McLaren has looked stronger overall.

Moving forward, if the rumours are to be believed then Alonso is moving to McLaren. That's a pretty big coup if true. It would undoubtedly also lead to fresh sponsorship opportunities, which would kill two birds with one stone for Dennis. Of course, we have to wait and see just how true they are but if Ron has managed to bring arguably the best driver on the grid on board, despite the relatively lacklustre performance of the team in the last couple of years, then he'll have done pretty well. And with them being the works Honda team for next year, and having strengthened their aero department with the like of Promodrou, the signs are pretty good for them. I shouldn't write Ron off just yet

Jomox wrote:Whitmarsh actually made their image worse.

Worse than a team of cheaters with openly warring teammates? I'm a McLaren supporter and not a big fan of Hamilton, but if it wasn't for Hamilton in 2007, McLaren would have had no redeeming features from spygate and how Ron and Alonso conducted themselves that year.

minchy wrote:

Jomox wrote:Whitmarsh actually made their image worse.

Worse than a team of cheaters with openly warring teammates? I'm a McLaren supporter and not a big fan of Hamilton, but if it wasn't for Hamilton in 2007, McLaren would have had no redeeming features from spygate and how Ron and Alonso conducted themselves that year.

Sorry, but how did Ron conduct himself poorly that year?

The only evidence we have is that Ron tried to let both drivers race each other and not impose any team orders. After all, isn't that what got Alonso all hot under the collar originally? How is that poor conduct? When Alonso was penalised in Hungary, Ron tried to take the blame so his driver wouldn't get sanctioned, but the FIA were having none of it. How is defending your driver poor conduct? And the only uncontested fact that we know about Ron's actions with the Spygate affair is that he telephoned Max after Alonso spoke to him about it. This is the only evidence we have of Ron's knowledge of Spygate, and we know that he telephoned the authorities immediately. How is that poor conduct?

Now I know that many feel that a CEO must take responsibility for the actions of those under him, which is fair enough. But as far as conduct goes, what evidence do we have that Ron actually did anything wrong?

I think Jense has tried hard enough IMO. He has like double the points of his teammate. Since Lewis left he team, Macca suffered with poor cars but Jense always was the man bringing the best results. I think Dennis just isn't a Jenson fan but won't admit it openly.

I personally think Ron has done a lot more for the team than Jenson has over all the years. Jenson is just a driver, he is not the best out there and never was, and there will also come a time where he won't be as fast as he was when he was young and should move on, regardless of the car.

Alonso is a much heavier name than Button, and replacing Button with Alonso will be seen my many as an improvement to the team. I personally like Ron's ruthless style better than Jenson's polite gentleman style, after all they are supposed to be fighting for points and championships, not asking for the politely. This is just my personal view but I am not a McLaren fan.

Amon wrote:I think Jense has tried hard enough IMO. He has like double the points of his teammate. Since Lewis left he team, Macca suffered with poor cars but Jense always was the man bringing the best results. I think Dennis just isn't a Jenson fan but won't admit it openly.

You may be right about Ron not being a great Button fan, but you also have to look at the context.

These remarks were made in June, when Jenson hadn't had a lot of decent results. He'd just been beaten in Austria by Kevin. But if you read the article Ron doesn't really say anything too damning and just says he wants Jenson to try harder. He wasn't being rude or nasty about him.

Zoue wrote:

minchy wrote:

Jomox wrote:Whitmarsh actually made their image worse.

Worse than a team of cheaters with openly warring teammates? I'm a McLaren supporter and not a big fan of Hamilton, but if it wasn't for Hamilton in 2007, McLaren would have had no redeeming features from spygate and how Ron and Alonso conducted themselves that year.

Sorry, but how did Ron conduct himself poorly that year?

The only evidence we have is that Ron tried to let both drivers race each other and not impose any team orders. After all, isn't that what got Alonso all hot under the collar originally? How is that poor conduct? When Alonso was penalised in Hungary, Ron tried to take the blame so his driver wouldn't get sanctioned, but the FIA were having none of it. How is defending your driver poor conduct? And the only uncontested fact that we know about Ron's actions with the Spygate affair is that he telephoned Max after Alonso spoke to him about it. This is the only evidence we have of Ron's knowledge of Spygate, and we know that he telephoned the authorities immediately. How is that poor conduct?

Now I know that many feel that a CEO must take responsibility for the actions of those under him, which is fair enough. But as far as conduct goes, what evidence do we have that Ron actually did anything wrong?

Maybe conduct was the wrong word. But you said it yourself, spygate happened right under his watch, whether he was directly responsible or not, something of that magnitude reflects directly onto the CEO. In my opinion as well, the issues between Alonso and Hamilton which happened on track came about due to his inability to manage his drivers that year, again regardless of how he handled the consequences of it, he should've not let it happen.

All just my opinion, but I don't think Whitmarsh made the team look worse than Ron did (until 2012 when I think Ron would've been able to help McLaren win the WCC that year and Whitmarsh messed up a number of times). I also think it was lucky for Hamilton that he had Whitmarsh as TP instead of Ron in 2011. I just don't think that Ron would've handled Hamilton's on track performance due to off track emotional problems as well as Whitmarsh did. If Ron had more presence in the team we may have been lucky to have Hamilton still in f1 in 2012.

Imo Button has performed very well in 2015 against Alonso, and has upped his speed slightly. However in 2014 against Magnussen I thought he did well too, Magnussen being faster than perceived. By my driver ratings Button and Raikkonen in 2015 equal rated at 100.3. For two drivers into their 14th seasons (alright, Kimi had a 2-year long weekend in between ) such speed against younger drivers who've not been at it for so long shows their talent, sensitivity end determination.

Chunky wrote:Jenson is on his way out. I've been saying that ever since the Honda engine deal was announced. The one year contract pretty much confirmed it for me.

To my mind, it's madness. You need a mature, capable, analytical driver to help develop a new car, which is effectively what's going to happen next year at McLaren. The Jenson versus Kevin results illustrate that. Unfortunately, Daniel whupping Seb has pretty much contradicted that - people forget that Vettel wasn't, isn't and likely never will be, anything but a very capable point and squirt driver.

One of next year's Macca drivers will be either Japanese, or from a country where Honda has a big presence or marketing opportunity.

Remember that Jenson was brought in by Whitmarsh, so Ron has no great connection there. Ron's just getting his post-event justification in early.


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Let's look at the entire picture with Jenson the last couple of seasons…

Soon much going on in his life, likely more than any other driver in F1. Marriage, death of his father, now divorced. One cannot discount all those things weighing on a driver's mind, and the latter is a REALLY Big one for most people and drivers, for all their supreme ability behind the wheel of a race car, are int he end human. Having said that, I think Jenson did a marvelous job in not only hiding his personal woes, but also doing respectably well in the McLaren despite all that was going on.

Ron is one who has been in this sport longer than, well… most anyone currently and with all his decades of experience he knows when a driver isn't doing his very best consistently. He's praised Jenson several times in the past and he did have the option of dropping him for 2015 but elected to keep him which shows he believes in Jenson because he had a very capable guy in Magnussen who could've partnered Alonso easily. Jenson also knows some of the Honda staff and his experience is more valuable to both McLaren and Honda so it made sense to keep him over Magnussen. In the end I think both he and Alonso did an excellent job considering the machine they were trying to pilot.

POBRatings wrote:Imo Button has performed very well in 2015 against Alonso, and has upped his speed slightly. However in 2014 against Magnussen I thought he did well too, Magnussen being faster than perceived. By my driver ratings Button and Raikkonen in 2015 equal rated at 100.3. For two drivers into their 14th seasons (alright, Kimi had a 2-year long weekend in between ) such speed against younger drivers who've not been at it for so long shows their talent, sensitivity end determination.

Kimi isn't really as fast as he was - at least definitely not when the car isn't to his liking. Everyone except the most hardcore Raikkonen fans will agree.

On a side note - do you really have pull threads from the grave just to push your ratings "system"?

A.J. wrote:Kimi isn't really as fast as he was - at least definitely not when the car isn't to his liking. Everyone except the most hardcore Raikkonen fans will agree.

On a side note - do you really have pull threads from the grave just to push your ratings "system"?

Is there really any question that it's a system? You may not agree with his ratings, but they're derived from a consistent mathematical model. It's a system whether you like it or not.

As for Kimi, POB's numbers say he's about 3 tenths off Vettel in race pace. I'd say stripping away all the hyperbole that's been about right this year.

A.J. wrote:

POBRatings wrote:Imo Button has performed very well in 2015 against Alonso, and has upped his speed slightly. However in 2014 against Magnussen I thought he did well too, Magnussen being faster than perceived. By my driver ratings Button and Raikkonen in 2015 equal rated at 100.3. For two drivers into their 14th seasons (alright, Kimi had a 2-year long weekend in between ) such speed against younger drivers who've not been at it for so long shows their talent, sensitivity end determination.

Kimi isn't really as fast as he was - at least definitely not when the car isn't to his liking. Everyone except the most hardcore Raikkonen fans will agree.

On a side note - do you really have pull threads from the grave just to push your ratings "system"?

I would recommend to anyone that they don't use their 4th post to be rude to one of the most respected members of the forum.

mikeyg123 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

POBRatings wrote:Imo Button has performed very well in 2015 against Alonso, and has upped his speed slightly. However in 2014 against Magnussen I thought he did well too, Magnussen being faster than perceived. By my driver ratings Button and Raikkonen in 2015 equal rated at 100.3. For two drivers into their 14th seasons (alright, Kimi had a 2-year long weekend in between ) such speed against younger drivers who've not been at it for so long shows their talent, sensitivity end determination.

Kimi isn't really as fast as he was - at least definitely not when the car isn't to his liking. Everyone except the most hardcore Raikkonen fans will agree.

On a side note - do you really have pull threads from the grave just to push your ratings "system"?

I would recommend to anyone that they don't use their 4th post to be rude to one of the most respected members of the forum.

RaggedMan wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

A.J. wrote:

POBRatings wrote:Imo Button has performed very well in 2015 against Alonso, and has upped his speed slightly. However in 2014 against Magnussen I thought he did well too, Magnussen being faster than perceived. By my driver ratings Button and Raikkonen in 2015 equal rated at 100.3. For two drivers into their 14th seasons (alright, Kimi had a 2-year long weekend in between ) such speed against younger drivers who've not been at it for so long shows their talent, sensitivity end determination.

Kimi isn't really as fast as he was - at least definitely not when the car isn't to his liking. Everyone except the most hardcore Raikkonen fans will agree.

On a side note - do you really have pull threads from the grave just to push your ratings "system"?

I would recommend to anyone that they don't use their 4th post to be rude to one of the most respected members of the forum.

Whatever POBratings writes, you may not agree with with it, but it is always well researched and well thought out because of his ratings "system".

Exediron wrote:

A.J. wrote:Kimi isn't really as fast as he was - at least definitely not when the car isn't to his liking. Everyone except the most hardcore Raikkonen fans will agree.

On a side note - do you really have pull threads from the grave just to push your ratings "system"?

Is there really any question that it's a system? You may not agree with his ratings, but they're derived from a consistent mathematical model. It's a system whether you like it or not.

As for Kimi, POB's numbers say he's about 3 tenths off Vettel in race pace. I'd say stripping away all the hyperbole that's been about right this year.

Was this said before they were teammates?