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Peter77 wrote:

gregwil wrote:I am beginning to warm, ever so slightly, to Ricciardo, I do think that he is driving exceptionally well and is beating Seb in a straight fight. At first I did think that it was all down to Seb having less track time with all of the issues he has had but recently Ricciardo has really been impressive, his whole weekend at Germany was exceptional. I do however think that it is largely due to the fact that he is more suited to this year's car than Seb is and I doubt very much if he would have matched Seb in the past 5 years as those years the Red Bull car and Seb were the perfect match of car and driver and no-one would have beaten Seb in that car.

This year does not in any way reflect badly on Seb it is rather a great reflection on Ricciardo as he is matching and even beating probably the best driver of this generation, I think that this guy is currently the hungriest driver out there and is out to prove himself more than any other driver and he is doing a fantastic job of it. At the moment I have no doubt if you put him in the Mercedes alongside Hamilton he would be beating him hands down and if you had to put him in the Ferrari alongside Alonso provided he was given equal equipment and an equal opportunity he would at the very least match Alonso, although he would beat Alonso in qualifying and therefore probably beat him throughout.

Having said that I have a theory that the current difference between Seb and Ricciardo is mainly due to the way they are setting up their cars, I may be wrong but this is my theory. I think that Seb is setting his car up to maximise the downforce and thereby sacrificing some straight line speed, his strength has always been in getting through slower corners faster than others and it has to do with the way he goes into and gets out of the corners. Ricciardo on the other hand may be sacrificing a little bit of downforce and maximising the straight line speed of the car and maybe this is the better way to go with this years cars, we all know that this year is all about straight line speed rather than cornering ability. I think if you look at the times through speed traps that these guys are setting as well as the different sector times at each of the tracks it does appear to show that this may be the case. I think on every track Ricciardo has been faster through the speed traps, sometimes it is very minimal and then on other tracks, such as Germany, he is 3 or 4 kms/hr faster which could probably prove quite significant around a lap when you are talking fractions of time in difference. Then if you look at different sector times Seb generally appears to be quicker in sectors with the twisty bits and Ricciardo is generally faster in the sectors with the long straights, it would also explain why Seb has almost always been faster in the wet qualifying sessions. But as I said this is merely a theory, I could be wrong however if it is so I do think that Seb will continue to try to attempt to maximise the downforce as he knows that this is where his strength lies and if he gets it right I do think that he will ultimately beat Ricciardo. I do hope they both keep doing what they are currently doing as they are both doing it very well and are providing loads of excitement on the tracks.

So many myths and rumors keep being propagated which I do not believe.

1. Vettel is not suited to this years car and is having an off year.

Last year Webber was very old and not on form at all as we are seeing now. Vettel did not have to push much and easily win and come out on top. He basically cruised the car home on auto pilot as it was that quick. We all remember the Hamilton comment of him missing 3 apexes and still getting pole the redbull was that quick.
This year he now has Ricciardo with faster telemetry and a faster benchmark in the team. Vettel is now pushing alot harder to match him and trying alot harder. It is logical to assume Vettel is driving at his absolute peak and stepped up his game from last year. When he sees Webber in qualy slower everywhere he assumed he did a good lap and cruises home.
When you are in Qualy and Ricciardo is quicker at almost every single corner and sector, then Vettel will use that telemtry and go faster and set a faster Qualy time with his engineers.
It is ludicrous to suggest that having a faster team mate will not help you get faster as well and to match him.

Vettel is still 27. Schumacher, Senna and all the top drivers also drove alot better at these ages as these are the golden years for an F1 driver. The late 20s. Late 30s like Webber drivers get slower and usually retire.
Vettel is in his absolute golden years of driving this year. He was 26 now 27 recently and he is in team 4 WDC Vettel and he has the high of just winning 4 WDC. Nothing to suggest at all he is not at his absolute peak this year.
Vettel this year is driving alot faster than last year as he has a new team mate to push him.
This myth he is driving slower this year and not adapting has to be put to rest.
He just is not as quick as Ricciardo. Not much else to it.

2. Ricciardo could not have won in the exhuast blown diffuser car as somehow it so magical and difficult to drive only Vettel could master it as he is the ultimate master and adaptor of F1 cars.

And no top driver nobody else could master it. Not even Alonso or Hamilton or Rosberg for that matter. Ye right!!!!

If any of these guys were team mates with Vettel at redbull last 4 years all these guys would have easily beaten Vettel and won 4 championships back to back I believe. These 3 especially are the top drivers in the sport and all alot quicker than Vettel. They are all on another level compared to vettel in speed and always have been.

in 2010 Ricciardo was a total F1 rookie at the young drivers test in abu dhabi.
On day 1 he was the only driver who managed to break into the 1.39s.
He came within .2 seconds of the Vettel's Redbull Qualy time on day 1

Mclaren test driver 1.2 seconds off the pace of top driver.
Ferrari test driver 4 seconds off the pace of top driver.
Force India test driver .4 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Williams test driver 1.3 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Renault test driver 1.1 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Torro Rosso test driver .7 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Mercedes test driver 2.4 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Sauber test driver .7 seconds off the pace of top driver time.

Day 2 the track got alot quicker and times started tumbling as the track rubbered in and drivers adapted to the car hence why we shall leave it out so as not to confuse people.

I'm just using day 1 as an example to show what happened when you threw in a 21 year old Ricciardo in Vettel's car on day 1 and seeing how quick him and the other rookies adapted to the cars in just 1 day only.
It is a good example to see what rookies can do after just 1 day.
Day 2 obviously they are adapting and getting faster which is not the point of this comparison at all.
Let's just look at instant day 1 adaption with minimal running time.

Ricciardo came the closest out of any driver to beating the star driver out of all the top teams in Qualy with only .2 second gap.
Ricciardo adapted to the exhuast blown diffuser very very very quick. He adapted quicker than any other rookie.
Which goes to show the exhuast blown diffuser car is the easiest car to adapt to and anybody can as you can get on the throttle early as the car is stuck to the ground giving more stability on acceleration and through corners etc.
The myth here is that it is harder to control and nobody but Vettel the magician can adapt to it. ye right.
More downforce = more grip and easier to drive which is why Ricciardo adapted so quick in 1 day.
That myth needs to be put to bed once and for all.
If rookies can adapt to exhuast blown diffuser cars so so so quick.
Then why would anybody who follows F1 assume Rosberg , Hamilton, Alonso the 3 fastest drivers in F1 with years of experience could not adapt to it? It is beyond ridiculous to even contemplate yet I have heard this comment thrown around 1000s of times in this forum over the last 4 years. Vettel mastered the exhuast blown diffuser car and nobody else could as every other driver cannot adapt to cars at all. Only vettel the magician can
Ricciardo mastered it in 1 day and mastered it quicker than any other rookie driving non exhuast blown diffuser cars in just 1 day.

If Ricciardo adapted in 1 day imagine what would happen in a few weeks working with the engineers.
Well that question has been answered this year.
If you threw in Alonso or Hamilton or Rosberg who are very experienced drivers into the redbull in 1 day they would easily hands down beat Vettel the last 4 years with 4 titles back to back. Not to mention many other drivers on the grid who are also very very fast like Hulkenburg and Button and now Bottas.

Ricciardo was always alot quicker than Vettel even back form 2010.
Vettel is quick yes. But Ricciardo is extremely quick.
I do not see Vettel being able to beat him over an entire season ever no matter what the car. V12, V10, V8, V6 exhuast blown diffuser, non exhuast blown diffuser, turbo, non turbo, 6 wheel car, fan car etc
Ricciardo is just plain quicker.
Even in Germany Ricciardo qualified .3 seconds quicker yet again. The gap has been fairly consistant all year and will continue like this.

Peter77 wrote:.......................

Peter77 wrote:

gregwil wrote:I am beginning to warm, ever so slightly, to Ricciardo, I do think that he is driving exceptionally well and is beating Seb in a straight fight. At first I did think that it was all down to Seb having less track time with all of the issues he has had but recently Ricciardo has really been impressive, his whole weekend at Germany was exceptional. I do however think that it is largely due to the fact that he is more suited to this year's car than Seb is and I doubt very much if he would have matched Seb in the past 5 years as those years the Red Bull car and Seb were the perfect match of car and driver and no-one would have beaten Seb in that car.

This year does not in any way reflect badly on Seb it is rather a great reflection on Ricciardo as he is matching and even beating probably the best driver of this generation, I think that this guy is currently the hungriest driver out there and is out to prove himself more than any other driver and he is doing a fantastic job of it. At the moment I have no doubt if you put him in the Mercedes alongside Hamilton he would be beating him hands down and if you had to put him in the Ferrari alongside Alonso provided he was given equal equipment and an equal opportunity he would at the very least match Alonso, although he would beat Alonso in qualifying and therefore probably beat him throughout.

Having said that I have a theory that the current difference between Seb and Ricciardo is mainly due to the way they are setting up their cars, I may be wrong but this is my theory. I think that Seb is setting his car up to maximise the downforce and thereby sacrificing some straight line speed, his strength has always been in getting through slower corners faster than others and it has to do with the way he goes into and gets out of the corners. Ricciardo on the other hand may be sacrificing a little bit of downforce and maximising the straight line speed of the car and maybe this is the better way to go with this years cars, we all know that this year is all about straight line speed rather than cornering ability. I think if you look at the times through speed traps that these guys are setting as well as the different sector times at each of the tracks it does appear to show that this may be the case. I think on every track Ricciardo has been faster through the speed traps, sometimes it is very minimal and then on other tracks, such as Germany, he is 3 or 4 kms/hr faster which could probably prove quite significant around a lap when you are talking fractions of time in difference. Then if you look at different sector times Seb generally appears to be quicker in sectors with the twisty bits and Ricciardo is generally faster in the sectors with the long straights, it would also explain why Seb has almost always been faster in the wet qualifying sessions. But as I said this is merely a theory, I could be wrong however if it is so I do think that Seb will continue to try to attempt to maximise the downforce as he knows that this is where his strength lies and if he gets it right I do think that he will ultimately beat Ricciardo. I do hope they both keep doing what they are currently doing as they are both doing it very well and are providing loads of excitement on the tracks.

So many myths and rumors keep being propagated which I do not believe.

1. Vettel is not suited to this years car and is having an off year.

Last year Webber was very old and not on form at all as we are seeing now. Vettel did not have to push much and easily win and come out on top. He basically cruised the car home on auto pilot as it was that quick. We all remember the Hamilton comment of him missing 3 apexes and still getting pole the redbull was that quick.
This year he now has Ricciardo with faster telemetry and a faster benchmark in the team. Vettel is now pushing alot harder to match him and trying alot harder. It is logical to assume Vettel is driving at his absolute peak and stepped up his game from last year. When he sees Webber in qualy slower everywhere he assumed he did a good lap and cruises home.
When you are in Qualy and Ricciardo is quicker at almost every single corner and sector, then Vettel will use that telemtry and go faster and set a faster Qualy time with his engineers.
It is ludicrous to suggest that having a faster team mate will not help you get faster as well and to match him.

Vettel is still 27. Schumacher, Senna and all the top drivers also drove alot better at these ages as these are the golden years for an F1 driver. The late 20s. Late 30s like Webber drivers get slower and usually retire.
Vettel is in his absolute golden years of driving this year. He was 26 now 27 recently and he is in team 4 WDC Vettel and he has the high of just winning 4 WDC. Nothing to suggest at all he is not at his absolute peak this year.
Vettel this year is driving alot faster than last year as he has a new team mate to push him.
This myth he is driving slower this year and not adapting has to be put to rest.
He just is not as quick as Ricciardo. Not much else to it.

2. Ricciardo could not have won in the exhuast blown diffuser car as somehow it so magical and difficult to drive only Vettel could master it as he is the ultimate master and adaptor of F1 cars.

And no top driver nobody else could master it. Not even Alonso or Hamilton or Rosberg for that matter. Ye right!!!!

If any of these guys were team mates with Vettel at redbull last 4 years all these guys would have easily beaten Vettel and won 4 championships back to back I believe. These 3 especially are the top drivers in the sport and all alot quicker than Vettel. They are all on another level compared to vettel in speed and always have been.

in 2010 Ricciardo was a total F1 rookie at the young drivers test in abu dhabi.
On day 1 he was the only driver who managed to break into the 1.39s.
He came within .2 seconds of the Vettel's Redbull Qualy time on day 1

Mclaren test driver 1.2 seconds off the pace of top driver.
Ferrari test driver 4 seconds off the pace of top driver.
Force India test driver .4 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Williams test driver 1.3 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Renault test driver 1.1 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Torro Rosso test driver .7 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Mercedes test driver 2.4 seconds off the pace of top driver time.
Sauber test driver .7 seconds off the pace of top driver time.

Day 2 the track got alot quicker and times started tumbling as the track rubbered in and drivers adapted to the car hence why we shall leave it out so as not to confuse people.

I'm just using day 1 as an example to show what happened when you threw in a 21 year old Ricciardo in Vettel's car on day 1 and seeing how quick him and the other rookies adapted to the cars in just 1 day only.
It is a good example to see what rookies can do after just 1 day.
Day 2 obviously they are adapting and getting faster which is not the point of this comparison at all.
Let's just look at instant day 1 adaption with minimal running time.

Ricciardo came the closest out of any driver to beating the star driver out of all the top teams in Qualy with only .2 second gap.
Ricciardo adapted to the exhuast blown diffuser very very very quick. He adapted quicker than any other rookie.
Which goes to show the exhuast blown diffuser car is the easiest car to adapt to and anybody can as you can get on the throttle early as the car is stuck to the ground giving more stability on acceleration and through corners etc.
The myth here is that it is harder to control and nobody but Vettel the magician can adapt to it. ye right.
More downforce = more grip and easier to drive which is why Ricciardo adapted so quick in 1 day.
That myth needs to be put to bed once and for all.
If rookies can adapt to exhuast blown diffuser cars so so so quick.
Then why would anybody who follows F1 assume Rosberg , Hamilton, Alonso the 3 fastest drivers in F1 with years of experience could not adapt to it? It is beyond ridiculous to even contemplate yet I have heard this comment thrown around 1000s of times in this forum over the last 4 years. Vettel mastered the exhuast blown diffuser car and nobody else could as every other driver cannot adapt to cars at all. Only vettel the magician can
Ricciardo mastered it in 1 day and mastered it quicker than any other rookie driving non exhuast blown diffuser cars in just 1 day.

If Ricciardo adapted in 1 day imagine what would happen in a few weeks working with the engineers.
Well that question has been answered this year.
If you threw in Alonso or Hamilton or Rosberg who are very experienced drivers into the redbull in 1 day they would easily hands down beat Vettel the last 4 years with 4 titles back to back. Not to mention many other drivers on the grid who are also very very fast like Hulkenburg and Button and now Bottas.

Ricciardo was always alot quicker than Vettel even back form 2010.
Vettel is quick yes. But Ricciardo is extremely quick.
I do not see Vettel being able to beat him over an entire season ever no matter what the car. V12, V10, V8, V6 exhuast blown diffuser, non exhuast blown diffuser, turbo, non turbo, 6 wheel car, fan car etc
Ricciardo is just plain quicker.
Even in Germany Ricciardo qualified .3 seconds quicker yet again. The gap has been fairly consistant all year and will continue like this.

Peter77 wrote:When you are in Qualy and Ricciardo is quicker at almost every single corner and sector, then Vettel will use that telemtry and go faster and set a faster Qualy time with his engineers.

Peter77 wrote:Ricciardo is just plain quicker.
Even in Germany Ricciardo qualified .3 seconds quicker yet again. The gap has been fairly consistant all year and will continue like this.

pokerman wrote:Apart from his rookie season Rosberg had always beat his teammates before the arrival of Hamilton, this included a 7xWDC but apparently that didn't count because he was too old, but Vettel's beating of Webber is proof enough of how good he is.

Vettel indeed was the King of the EBD, but then again it does kind of help when you have the best EBD car at your disposal.

Covalent wrote:

Peter77 wrote:Ricciardo is just plain quicker.
Even in Germany Ricciardo qualified .3 seconds quicker yet again. The gap has been fairly consistant all year and will continue like this.

oops

gregwil wrote:

pokerman wrote:Apart from his rookie season Rosberg had always beat his teammates before the arrival of Hamilton, this included a 7xWDC but apparently that didn't count because he was too old, but Vettel's beating of Webber is proof enough of how good he is.

Vettel indeed was the King of the EBD, but then again it does kind of help when you have the best EBD car at your disposal.

You don't think it's because Seb is a 4 x WDC that could be a little bit of proof how good he is? When Rosberg has a at least one WDC maybe then he could be considered in the top tier due to other factors.

gregwil wrote:

Covalent wrote:

Peter77 wrote:Ricciardo is just plain quicker.
Even in Germany Ricciardo qualified .3 seconds quicker yet again. The gap has been fairly consistant all year and will continue like this.

oops

A track with no real straights and Seb was the quicker driver in every single sector even though Ricciardo was still nearly 2km/hr faster through the speed trap, maybe my theory is not far off or maybe Seb is just quicker on a track with corners.

silkjet wrote:Watch it everyone. Vettel has out qualified Riicciardo- and the crowing has started.

gregwil wrote:

silkjet wrote:Watch it everyone. Vettel has out qualified Riicciardo- and the crowing has started.

You say that as if it is the first time Seb has outqualified Ricciardo.

Here are the actual facts

No of events = 11
No of events Seb has not made Q3 = 4 (all of these due to car issues)

No of events neither has had car issues = 7
No of these events Seb has beaten Ricciardo = 4
No of these events Ricciardo has beaten Seb = 3

Last time I was taught maths 4 was > 3

It's no big deal that Seb has beaten him AGAIN.

These are the real facts, you may taint them by saying that it is 7 to 4 to Ricciardo in a straight fight but you would only be kidding yourself.

joshb wrote:Or Vergne and Liuzzi (who outqualified rookie Vettel there) are Hungary specialists

and it's not even Vettel's best track!

hopefully this is the start of the resurgence and not just the one off, but since we got into Europe, except Austria, Seb has been right there, just without the rub of the green until Hockenheim when he got fortunate

davidheath461 wrote:It's worth noting that Ricciardo was beaten at the Hungaroring in qualifying in 2011 and 2012 by Liuzzi and Vergne respectively. I don't think it's his strongest track.

joshb wrote:Or Vergne and Liuzzi (who outqualified rookie Vettel there) are Hungary specialists

and it's not even Vettel's best track!

hopefully this is the start of the resurgence and not just the one off, but since we got into Europe, except Austria, Seb has been right there, just without the rub of the green until Hockenheim when he got fortunate

Juzzy82 wrote:Did Ricciardo have a broken rear wing in qual? I haven't read that anywhere yet...

Anyway at the start of the season I thought Ricciardo would be doing very well just to out do Vettel a couple of times in the season and not be far behind him for the rest so at the moment even if Ricciardo does get beaten here and there it is still an amazing job considering he has come into a team pretty much built around Vettel.

mwf1 wrote:So can Dans rear wing be fixed in parce ferrme before race without penalty

infi24r wrote:I love how Vettel finishes ahead in 1 qualifying session which Ricciardo was hindered and suddenly he's having a resurgence.

gregwil wrote:

infi24r wrote:I love how Vettel finishes ahead in 1 qualifying session which Ricciardo was hindered and suddenly he's having a resurgence.

In the past 5 races he has qualified ahead 3 times this is where the resurgence is coming from and he is getting stronger and stronger, so no it is not just the 1 qualifying session that anyone is basing this on.

infi24r wrote:I love how Vettel finishes ahead in 1 qualifying session which Ricciardo was hindered and suddenly he's having a resurgence.

gregwil wrote:

infi24r wrote:I love how Vettel finishes ahead in 1 qualifying session which Ricciardo was hindered and suddenly he's having a resurgence.

In the past 5 races he has qualified ahead 3 times this is where the resurgence is coming from and he is getting stronger and stronger, so no it is not just the 1 qualifying session that anyone is basing this on.

F1yer wrote:

joshb wrote:Or Vergne and Liuzzi (who outqualified rookie Vettel there) are Hungary specialists

and it's not even Vettel's best track!

hopefully this is the start of the resurgence and not just the one off, but since we got into Europe, except Austria, Seb has been right there, just without the rub of the green until Hockenheim when he got fortunate

I think that may be the case... I m expecting a good result from sebi here esp as lewis is out.

And after Europe, Asia is his territory anyway.... 4 is too large a number to be a fluke..

Although I m just not ready to count Dan out yet...

gregwil wrote:

infi24r wrote:I love how Vettel finishes ahead in 1 qualifying session which Ricciardo was hindered and suddenly he's having a resurgence.

In the past 5 races he has qualified ahead 3 times this is where the resurgence is coming from and he is getting stronger and stronger, so no it is not just the 1 qualifying session that anyone is basing this on.

infi24r wrote:

gregwil wrote:

infi24r wrote:I love how Vettel finishes ahead in 1 qualifying session which Ricciardo was hindered and suddenly he's having a resurgence.

In the past 5 races he has qualified ahead 3 times this is where the resurgence is coming from and he is getting stronger and stronger, so no it is not just the 1 qualifying session that anyone is basing this on.

Thats good for him, but in one of those sessions Daniel had a damaged car and another one he didn't even get to run.

Not saying Vettel didn't actually perform. But if you cant out qualify your team mate when he's sitting in the garage you'd be worried.

Gumption wrote:Ricciardo once again drove great and he definitely deserves this win. He was lucky the first 4 didn't pit on the first lap of the safety car - had Vettel pit first that may have been him on the top of the podium but Vettel did look a little lackluster on the opening lap and the spin didn't help things.

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