So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

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What do you hope they will decide?

Poll ended at Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:07 pm

Ricciardo and RBR get points back
20
20%
Ricciardo gets points back, RBR doesn't
18
18%
Ricciardo and RBR do not get points back
60
61%
 
Total votes: 98

funkymonkey
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by funkymonkey »

imbrugliaboy wrote:I was surprised that Horner was so confident to be honest.
They were on fairly shaky ground with their arguments and ignoring FIA instructions issued during the race was always going to go down like a lead balloon.
Time to move on for both parties.


I never understood this argument by some fans that Horner appears so confident, so they must have case they can win and hence they must be in right. This totally dismissing the competence of stewards, FIA technical delegates, FIA engineers and Race Control in the serious matter of disqualification in the first place.
That was PR management at work.
Redbull is not some magical kingdom which will get everything right every time. Even when they appear to be like that.

It was clear from the beginning that they were in deep $#!t with this judgement. They are lucky that they have only had DSQ result. There were grounds for FIA to punish them harder.
In the end, right decision has been made. This judgement is good for F1 and good for FIA.
Decision as serious as disqualification is not something that FIA and stewards take lightly. And it proved that they were indeed in the right with the whole fuel sensor issue. This should put an end to that matter. So we now know that FIA will continue to stick to their sensors and backup method and no team will dare to do anything different.

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Amon
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Amon »

Fell gutted for Ricciardo but I agree now it would be bad for F1 and FIA's image if RBR won this appeal.
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Teddy007
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Teddy007 »

I too feel gutted for Ric, he did nothing wrong but the fact is RBR broke the rules and what I find funny is those that defended RBR and claimed they didn't breach the rules.

Now the latest thing which seems to have merit:
"Now this court has had sight, it can see more clearly than the stewards that the breach was very deliberate; it was a flagrant breach.

"[Red Bull] knew [it was] not compliant, not doing what Mr Lom [FIA head of powertrain] said repeatedly, and knew full well it was being done to obtain and express sporting advantage - 0.4s per lap for Mr Ricciardo."

According to the latest Article new evidence has surfaced which the courts are now aware of. Perhaps RBR should have accepted their punishment and now could face further action.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Sutton »

Amon wrote:Fell gutted for Ricciardo but I agree now it would be bad for F1 and FIA's image if RBR won this appeal.
My thoughts too.
Enough farce about the sport already without a result being changed, then changed back a month later.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Kobe »

Clarky wrote:RED BULL LOSE APPEAL...!



We still have to wait for the complete verdict, they didn't get there disqualification thurned around, but i still want to know what the court will say about the faulty meter.

They may have lost the appeal against teh disquali, becaus they didn't listen to the FIa to turn the engine down, but they may get the right about the faulty meter, and maybe the fans will win this way when they abandon the 100kg/min flow rule!!

Let's hope about it, so we can see some proper racing!!

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Herb »

Kobe wrote:

We still have to wait for the complete verdict, they didn't get there disqualification thurned around, but i still want to know what the court will say about the faulty meter.

They may have lost the appeal against teh disquali, becaus they didn't listen to the FIa to turn the engine down, but they may get the right about the faulty meter, and maybe the fans will win this way when they abandon the 100kg/min flow rule!!

Let's hope about it, so we can see some proper racing!!


Don't assume what you want is the same as what "the fans" want.

I'm happy with the 100kg/h limit.

And, Bahrain wasn't proper racing?

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by RickM »

Looks like it's confirmed: http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/124 ... ull-appeal

Quite right too. Them winning such a crazy appeal would have set about for a lot of problems. When a technical directive can be ignored we'll start seeing people bending rules beyond belief. Play by the damn rule book Red Bull. Everyone else manages to.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Swiss1 »

Herb wrote:
Kobe wrote:

We still have to wait for the complete verdict, they didn't get there disqualification thurned around, but i still want to know what the court will say about the faulty meter.

They may have lost the appeal against teh disquali, becaus they didn't listen to the FIa to turn the engine down, but they may get the right about the faulty meter, and maybe the fans will win this way when they abandon the 100kg/min flow rule!!

Let's hope about it, so we can see some proper racing!!


Don't assume what you want is the same as what "the fans" want.

I'm happy with the 100kg/h limit.

And, Bahrain wasn't proper racing?


+1

Feel sorry for DR and the Australian fans, but this was the right decision.

The fuel limits MUST remain. Renault and Ferrari will get on top of their issues and this will no longer be an issue.

We have not seen teams running out of fuel and Bahrain was meant to be one of the toughest for fuel and what a race that was. Time to DROP the fuel limit complaints and get on with the racing...

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MistaVega23
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by MistaVega23 »

If I was Daniel I wouldn't give a fairy cakes about the lost points, I'd be more proud of finishing on the podium at your home GP.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by fieldstvl »

RickM wrote: When you cheat make sure you don't get caught Red Bull. Everyone else usually manages to.


I totally agree ;)

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mds
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

RickM wrote:Them winning such a crazy appeal would have set about for a lot of problems. When a technical directive can be ignored we'll start seeing people bending rules beyond belief.


Ignoring the TD wasn't the cause for DSQ. It was even agreed upon yesterday in court that a TD is not a binding rule.
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funkymonkey
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by funkymonkey »

mds wrote:
RickM wrote:Them winning such a crazy appeal would have set about for a lot of problems. When a technical directive can be ignored we'll start seeing people bending rules beyond belief.


Ignoring the TD wasn't the cause for DSQ. It was even agreed upon yesterday in court that a TD is not a binding rule.


Where?
They said Technical directive cannot change the rules. But technical directives are not some new rules to begin with. Those explain the procedure on how the previously agreed rules will be imposed or governed. Technical directive remain binding to all teams. Nothing has changed in this department.

Redbull tried to argue that Technical directive is imposing this 100KG/hour rule with FIA sensor measurement and hence it is not binding which was not the case to begin with. They tried word play as a part of defense strategy. That was never going to work as Technical directive never introduced any new rules.

FIA were spot on to begin with. The rules stayed same. Technical directives were issued to explain to teams how these rules will be implemented. The procedure and methodology was covered with directives. I said this before as well that if RedBull try to argue this point, they are stuffed and that is exactly what happened.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Covalent »

MistaVega23 wrote:If I was Daniel I wouldn't give a fairy cakes about the lost points, I'd be more proud of finishing on the podium at your home GP.

Even if it was driving an illegal car?

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mds
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

funkymonkey wrote:
mds wrote:
RickM wrote:Them winning such a crazy appeal would have set about for a lot of problems. When a technical directive can be ignored we'll start seeing people bending rules beyond belief.


Ignoring the TD wasn't the cause for DSQ. It was even agreed upon yesterday in court that a TD is not a binding rule.


Where?


Technical directives can't replace the rules, they provide information about the rules. It's still the rules who are binding and not the directives. FIA's lawyer didn't even try to state that the directives are binding, he only said something along the lines of "if directives were interpreted differently by different teams, we would be in a state of chaos, so why did RBR not listen?"

If TD's were binding, this wouldn't have been the approach to take. They would simply have said "a TD is binding and we sent out this and such TD, so that's the end of it".

The rules are binding.

FIA were spot on to begin with. The rules stayed same. Technical directives were issued to explain to teams how these rules will be implemented. The procedure and methodology was covered with directives. I said this before as well that if RedBull try to argue this point, they are stuffed and that is exactly what happened.


Actually the play wasn't so much on the TD as it was on the sensor and whether or not it was faulty. Looking back on it I see only a very weak defense from the FIA when the subject of the inconsistent sensor came to light, more clearly the fact that it fluctuated during the race as well.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Laura23 »

As soon as we knew the real facts it was clear Red Bull were never going to win their points back.

A massive blow for them because it shows they don't have as much clout as they thought they did, you have to wonder if this was McLaren/Ferrari if the result may have been different...
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by dizlexik »

RickM wrote:Looks like it's confirmed: http://www1.skysports.com/f1/report/124 ... ull-appeal

Quite right too. Them winning such a crazy appeal would have set about for a lot of problems. When a technical directive can be ignored we'll start seeing people bending rules beyond belief. Play by the damn rule book Red Bull. Everyone else manages to.

Nope.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by stranger »

Well we can only assume that his car did in fact obtain an advantage and whilst Daniel did nothing wrong and his team failed him, it would be unfair to restore Daniel's podium when he was gaining a clear advantage over his competitors.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Teddy007 »

Laura23 wrote:As soon as we knew the real facts it was clear Red Bull were never going to win their points back.

A massive blow for them because it shows they don't have as much clout as they thought they did, you have to wonder if this was McLaren/Ferrari if the result may have been different...

Doubtful, the amount of teams that were involved in this and there isn't one single team that seemed to be supporting RBRs case.

If it was the other teams, the same punishment would of been thrown at them.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Kobe »

Herb wrote:
Kobe wrote:

We still have to wait for the complete verdict, they didn't get there disqualification thurned around, but i still want to know what the court will say about the faulty meter.

They may have lost the appeal against teh disquali, becaus they didn't listen to the FIa to turn the engine down, but they may get the right about the faulty meter, and maybe the fans will win this way when they abandon the 100kg/min flow rule!!

Let's hope about it, so we can see some proper racing!!


Don't assume what you want is the same as what "the fans" want.

If you read more on the forum, you read that there are plenty of posts about the 100kg/h limit, so there are a lot of fans that want to change it, but the fans of Mercedes are finaly happy of course, such a big budget and nothing to show the last years!!

I'm happy with the 100kg/h limit.

And, Bahrain wasn't proper racing?


Bahrain wasn't bad, but what could it be if they could get realy full truttle?
And let's wait and see what the rest of the year brings.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Ennis »

Kobe wrote:
Bahrain wasn't bad, but what could it be if they could get realy full truttle?
And let's wait and see what the rest of the year brings.


A lot of people don't seem to understand the purpose of the fuel flow limit. The cars are full throttle at the moment, people also seem to miss this.

Having teams throwing millions of pounds down the drain to create a car that sometimes throws out 2000bhp isn't going to help the racing at all. The limit is there for a reason and its not to limit use of the throttle.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Teddy007 »

Bahrain wasn't bad?

Question: What driver/team you support - would it be one that didn't do well?

Sorry but my drivers (brits +Ric) and McLaren some did well some didn't but if that wasn't a bad race for you I would class a good race is ones like Canada 2011 which involve heavy rain, plenty of crashes and a marshall falling over. As much as I wanted everyone I supported to do well the racing involved on that weekend was immense and a prime example of these new Regs working.

BUT yes lets wait to see what the year brings, its not like we have had half a dozen boring races with little overtaking every year for the last 30 years is it?.............

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Seanie »

I'm glad they got put in their place.

It sucks for Ricciardo, but the teams need to be put in their place and realise that just because you've won a few championships doesn't mean you can pull the strings.

I imagine now there's going to be a few quotes from Marko about leaving the sport. GOOD, fck off! If you don't like the rules. I'd much rather have a team who want to compete within the rules and not cry when they're not #1.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Mr-E »

Sad for Dan but correct decision.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Clarky »

Mr-E wrote:Sad for Dan but correct decision.

I agree

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by funkymonkey »

Laura23 wrote:As soon as we knew the real facts it was clear Red Bull were never going to win their points back.

A massive blow for them because it shows they don't have as much clout as they thought they did, you have to wonder if this was McLaren/Ferrari if the result may have been different...


No. Dont know about McLaren, but Ferrari does not like to get involved in the controversies regarding technical side of the sport. They backed off before with blown diffuser as well. I was quiet surprised when they did that back then when their car actually won the race at Silverstone when cars ran the race without off throttle exhaust blown diffusers. Then they again went back to not winning. As soon as they decided not to drag it further.
I was actually disappointed to see this approach from Ferrari. But over last 4 years they have agreed not to drag technical side of the sport into dispute. Baybe it is Todt effect or whatever. But no, Ferrari will do anything in their power as far as it has to do with internal team dynamic, but they have not gone against FIA recently on any matter. Luca as usual says some things, but rarely they do anything.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by funkymonkey »

mds wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
mds wrote:
RickM wrote:Them winning such a crazy appeal would have set about for a lot of problems. When a technical directive can be ignored we'll start seeing people bending rules beyond belief.


Ignoring the TD wasn't the cause for DSQ. It was even agreed upon yesterday in court that a TD is not a binding rule.


Where?


Technical directives can't replace the rules, they provide information about the rules. It's still the rules who are binding and not the directives. FIA's lawyer didn't even try to state that the directives are binding, he only said something along the lines of "if directives were interpreted differently by different teams, we would be in a state of chaos, so why did RBR not listen?"

If TD's were binding, this wouldn't have been the approach to take. They would simply have said "a TD is binding and we sent out this and such TD, so that's the end of it".

The rules are binding.

FIA were spot on to begin with. The rules stayed same. Technical directives were issued to explain to teams how these rules will be implemented. The procedure and methodology was covered with directives. I said this before as well that if RedBull try to argue this point, they are stuffed and that is exactly what happened.


Actually the play wasn't so much on the TD as it was on the sensor and whether or not it was faulty. Looking back on it I see only a very weak defense from the FIA when the subject of the inconsistent sensor came to light, more clearly the fact that it fluctuated during the race as well.


It is opposite. In fact FIA knew everything about their sensor and its deviation and had data to prove that it did not vary any more than what they experienced in FP2,3, Quali and in the race. FP1 issue was spotted but none after that.
Yes, they agreed to the deviation which is why each sensor is calibrated differently with the delta to be applied is given to the team. Not just RedBull but every other team.
It was a strong defense from FIA, otherwise result of the appeal will be different.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by wrath »

Kobe wrote:
We still have to wait for the complete verdict, they didn't get there disqualification thurned around, but i still want to know what the court will say about the faulty meter.

They may have lost the appeal against teh disquali, becaus they didn't listen to the FIa to turn the engine down, but they may get the right about the faulty meter, and maybe the fans will win this way when they abandon the 100kg/min flow rule!!

Let's hope about it, so we can see some proper racing!!


if you read what was said in there the FIA have said they had a number of faulty meters that weekend but all of the ones that where at fault stopped working completely.

redbulls argument was always shakey they were trying to claim the FIA sensor whichs directly measures the fuel going threw it was at fault compared to their data which doesn't measure the fuel at all just projects fuel use based upon injector open times.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

funkymonkey wrote:It is opposite. In fact FIA knew everything about their sensor and its deviation and had data to prove that it did not vary any more than what they experienced in FP2,3, Quali and in the race. FP1 issue was spotted but none after that.


Sorry but that is not correct. RBR showed there was an issue during the race as well and this was not contested by the FIA lawyer.


It was a strong defense from FIA, otherwise result of the appeal will be different.


Sure, ofcourse the fact there was so much at stake for the FIA couldn't possibly have played a role in this.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Blake »

Covalent wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:If I was Daniel I wouldn't give a fairy cakes about the lost points, I'd be more proud of finishing on the podium at your home GP.

Even if it was driving an illegal car?


Indeed.... if the car was really .4 sec a lap faster because of the infraction, I seriously doubt that Ricciardo could feel any real pride in the podium.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by wrath »

Blake wrote:Indeed.... if the car was really .4 sec a lap faster because of the infraction, I seriously doubt that Ricciardo could feel any real pride in the podium.


I don't know people in general can justify a lot of things and if you've got a whole bunch of people around you telling you something was within the rules it wouldn't be hard for him to think "yeah I deserved that 2nd place."

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:If I was Daniel I wouldn't give a fairy cakes about the lost points, I'd be more proud of finishing on the podium at your home GP.

Even if it was driving an illegal car?


Indeed.... if the car was really .4 sec a lap faster because of the infraction, I seriously doubt that Ricciardo could feel any real pride in the podium.


Podium obtained illegally or not, Ricciardo had no hand in it, drove a fine race and had the ultimate joy of being on the podium in his home race. Ofcourse he can take pride in that.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Zoue »

mds wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:If I was Daniel I wouldn't give a fairy cakes about the lost points, I'd be more proud of finishing on the podium at your home GP.

Even if it was driving an illegal car?


Indeed.... if the car was really .4 sec a lap faster because of the infraction, I seriously doubt that Ricciardo could feel any real pride in the podium.


Podium obtained illegally or not, Ricciardo had no hand in it, drove a fine race and had the ultimate joy of being on the podium in his home race. Ofcourse he can take pride in that.

100%. Saying he can't take pride in his podium is like saying Lewis can't take pride in his wins so far this year. Or that Nico shouldn't take pride in leading the WDC. You race with what you have and if your car has an advantage that shouldn't detract from your own performance while in it. You still have to have the racecraft and cool head to get it there in the first place. Ricciardo showed what he can do if he's given the equipment to do it in. He can justifiably feel proud of that.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Toby. »

I reckon the disqualification will be upheld.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by wrath »

Zoue wrote:100%. Saying he can't take pride in his podium is like saying Lewis can't take pride in his wins so far this year. Or that Nico shouldn't take pride in leading the WDC. You race with what you have and if your car has an advantage that shouldn't detract from your own performance while in it. You still have to have the racecraft and cool head to get it there in the first place. Ricciardo showed what he can do if he's given the equipment to do it in. He can justifiably feel proud of that.


and alonso can feel so much pride in that Singapore win....

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by wrath »

Toby. wrote:I reckon the disqualification will be upheld.


it already has been toby was announced this morning :)

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by babararacucudada »

Horner said that the technical directive is only an opinion and it can't be enforced.

Seems he was wrong on that.

I'm glad to see it. The FIA do try to run the show fairly and even-handedly (apart from some advantages for teams which have been a major part of F1 for some time).
Christian tries to get any advantage he can over the other teams - which he should do.

The flexible front wing was an example of the FIA trying to keep the playing field level and Red Bull were clever enough to tilt their playing field so they were playing downhill.

Although I think the FIA have been incompetent quite often, I still want them to be able to provide the most level playing field they can

I have no problem with Red Bull dominating because they design a better diffuser. I'm not so happy if they (or any other team) dominate because of some extreme stretching of what a word means in the rules.

So I hope we see more adherence to the spirit of the rules and less lawyers arguing over the limits of the meanings of words.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Zoue »

wrath wrote:
Zoue wrote:100%. Saying he can't take pride in his podium is like saying Lewis can't take pride in his wins so far this year. Or that Nico shouldn't take pride in leading the WDC. You race with what you have and if your car has an advantage that shouldn't detract from your own performance while in it. You still have to have the racecraft and cool head to get it there in the first place. Ricciardo showed what he can do if he's given the equipment to do it in. He can justifiably feel proud of that.


and alonso can feel so much pride in that Singapore win....

facetious comment. The two situations are worlds apart

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Toby. »

wrath wrote:
Toby. wrote:I reckon the disqualification will be upheld.


it already has been toby was announced this morning :)


I know ;)
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by wrath »

Zoue wrote:facetious comment. The two situations are worlds apart


not really both driver got enhanced results due to the actions of their team....

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Blake »

Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:If I was Daniel I wouldn't give a fairy cakes about the lost points, I'd be more proud of finishing on the podium at your home GP.

Even if it was driving an illegal car?


Indeed.... if the car was really .4 sec a lap faster because of the infraction, I seriously doubt that Ricciardo could feel any real pride in the podium.


Podium obtained illegally or not, Ricciardo had no hand in it, drove a fine race and had the ultimate joy of being on the podium in his home race. Ofcourse he can take pride in that.

100%. Saying he can't take pride in his podium is like saying Lewis can't take pride in his wins so far this year. Or that Nico shouldn't take pride in leading the WDC. You race with what you have and if your car has an advantage that shouldn't detract from your own performance while in it. You still have to have the racecraft and cool head to get it there in the first place. Ricciardo showed what he can do if he's given the equipment to do it in. He can justifiably feel proud of that.


I am not saying that he can't feel good and have pride in his drive. However, to have pride in the PODIUM which may well not have happened if his car were legal is not the same. I understand what you guys are saying, and I am not bashing Ricciardo in any way. He drove well, and should feel good about that. Feeling good about the podium though is something else, especially when one realizes that Button was denied the podium celebration that he, as we now know, earned.
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