So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

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What do you hope they will decide?

Poll ended at Tue Apr 15, 2014 12:07 pm

Ricciardo and RBR get points back
20
20%
Ricciardo gets points back, RBR doesn't
18
18%
Ricciardo and RBR do not get points back
60
61%
 
Total votes: 98

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minchy
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by minchy »

mds wrote:
minchy wrote: In my mind it is much more that they disobayed the FIA than were over the fuel flow limit.


But your mind doesn't count. RBR has argued that a TD is not a binding rule, and the FIA lawyer has admitted as such, only to counter with "but the others listened to it, why not RBR?" which is weak at best.
As of now it stands that a TD is not a binding rule.

Sorry, been at work so haven't been able to reply.

I know my mind doesn't count! But my point was that if they get the points back and it is decided that an FIA technical directive doesn't have to be obeyed as it were, then every other team would want to challenge the FIA themselves as their technical representative caused them a disadvantage in Australian, which would end up being a right mess!

My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race, even if they were within the rules. This isn't about pushing the regulations as far as they can, it is about gaining an advantage over other teams. Whether it is percieved as fair or not is irrelevant, it's something the FIA can't afford to back down on or they really will open a can of worms for themselves and everyone.
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Greg92
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Greg92 »

UnlikeUday wrote:I think Red Bull are going to lose based on the following excerpt from the article mentioned further below:-

'Dismissing Red Bull's claims that the FIA's approved sensors were unreliable he argued that the Austrian team's alternative system by which it measured the flow was itself not "100 per cent" accurate, whereas the official sensors are "rigorously tested and rigorously calibrated."'

The entire article:-
http://www.pitpass.com/51356/Red-Bull-appeal-verdict-due-on-Tuesday


Is Mercedes really that scared of Red Bull?

I'd understand if a Mercedes driver ended behind Ricciardo but even then I doubt it would be worth engaging an expensive lawyer (I presume) for a measly 3 points.

I might see another agenda where Mercedes is trying to discredit Red Bull but that's too much for no reason, unless it's petty revenge. It's not like Mercedes and Red Bull compete for the same market.

Maybe my memory is failing now but I don't recall even Ferrari being so vocal against McLaren back in 2007.

Personally I think it's revenge for last year's tires and Red Bull's domination but honestly I find it childish.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Greg92 »

minchy wrote:
mds wrote:
minchy wrote: In my mind it is much more that they disobayed the FIA than were over the fuel flow limit.


But your mind doesn't count. RBR has argued that a TD is not a binding rule, and the FIA lawyer has admitted as such, only to counter with "but the others listened to it, why not RBR?" which is weak at best.
As of now it stands that a TD is not a binding rule.

Sorry, been at work so haven't been able to reply.

I know my mind doesn't count! But my point was that if they get the points back and it is decided that an FIA technical directive doesn't have to be obeyed as it were, then every other team would want to challenge the FIA themselves as their technical representative caused them a disadvantage in Australian, which would end up being a right mess!

My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race, even if they were within the rules. This isn't about pushing the regulations as far as they can, it is about gaining an advantage over other teams. Whether it is percieved as fair or not is irrelevant, it's something the FIA can't afford to back down on or they really will open a can of worms for themselves and everyone.


But not every other team's sensor has given two different readings though. And Red Bull hasn't challenged every sensor they've used this year.

So now it's illegal to gain legal advantage?

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

minchy wrote:My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race


How can you know that they gained an advantage? Rather than not be put at a disadvantage?
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mds
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

Zoue wrote:
mds wrote:
Blackhander wrote:
F1yer wrote:
Merc just usurped my most hated team Ferrari to that spot.


Agreed. Although I've never so much hated Ferrari as begrudged and disliked some of the lengths they've gone to to gain an advantage but appreciated the team for their heritage and commitment. Merc so far is seeming incredibly unsporting. Especially after they went out of their way last year to gain an illegal advantage and suffered only a slap on the wrists. Seems strange given their current position as well. Just trying to guarantee themselves a championship through any means?


I don't really get how this is possible. Shouldn't it be the FIA vs RBR?

Now we've got Mercedes bringing in their own lawyer, pleading to punish them. Not only to uphold the previous punishment, but to enforce a much bigger one, even going as far as to drag the BAR fuel tank case into this and saying how RBR has done a worse thing and should be punished more than BAR was, meaning more than 3 race bans? And this after that farce of last year?

To be fair I think all the teams seem to be as bad as each other when it comes to eagerness to see others punished.


I don't recall an RBR lawyer being in the court last year, actively arguing against Mercedes' case. Mercedes seems to have gone a step further this time.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by pokerman »

Greg92 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I think Red Bull are going to lose based on the following excerpt from the article mentioned further below:-

'Dismissing Red Bull's claims that the FIA's approved sensors were unreliable he argued that the Austrian team's alternative system by which it measured the flow was itself not "100 per cent" accurate, whereas the official sensors are "rigorously tested and rigorously calibrated."'

The entire article:-
http://www.pitpass.com/51356/Red-Bull-appeal-verdict-due-on-Tuesday


Is Mercedes really that scared of Red Bull?

I'd understand if a Mercedes driver ended behind Ricciardo but even then I doubt it would be worth engaging an expensive lawyer (I presume) for a measly 3 points.

I might see another agenda where Mercedes is trying to discredit Red Bull but that's too much for no reason, unless it's petty revenge. It's not like Mercedes and Red Bull compete for the same market.

Maybe my memory is failing now but I don't recall even Ferrari being so vocal against McLaren back in 2007.

Personally I think it's revenge for last year's tires and Red Bull's domination but honestly I find it childish.

I think you may find that Ferrari were very vocal against McLaren in 2007 and Red Bull were very vocal about the Mercedes illegal tyre test last year, far more than any other team i would say.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

stevey wrote:
mds wrote:
I don't really get how this is possible. Shouldn't it be the FIA vs RBR?

Now we've got Mercedes bringing in their own lawyer, pleading to punish them. Not only to uphold the previous punishment, but to enforce a much bigger one, even going as far as to drag the BAR fuel tank case into this and saying how RBR has done a worse thing and should be punished more than BAR was, meaning more than 3 race bans? And this after that farce of last year?



Do you not remember Horner at tyregate, I believe merc have remembered this and have decided to attack rbr on all fronts.


Horner is not a lawyer. As far as I know he gave his opinion on the matter, which is far from sending his lawyers into the court room to plead.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by pokerman »

Greg92 wrote:
minchy wrote:
mds wrote:
minchy wrote: In my mind it is much more that they disobayed the FIA than were over the fuel flow limit.


But your mind doesn't count. RBR has argued that a TD is not a binding rule, and the FIA lawyer has admitted as such, only to counter with "but the others listened to it, why not RBR?" which is weak at best.
As of now it stands that a TD is not a binding rule.

Sorry, been at work so haven't been able to reply.

I know my mind doesn't count! But my point was that if they get the points back and it is decided that an FIA technical directive doesn't have to be obeyed as it were, then every other team would want to challenge the FIA themselves as their technical representative caused them a disadvantage in Australian, which would end up being a right mess!

My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race, even if they were within the rules. This isn't about pushing the regulations as far as they can, it is about gaining an advantage over other teams. Whether it is percieved as fair or not is irrelevant, it's something the FIA can't afford to back down on or they really will open a can of worms for themselves and everyone.


But not every other team's sensor has given two different readings though. And Red Bull hasn't challenged every sensor they've used this year.

So now it's illegal to gain legal advantage?

Red Bull have basically said that all the sensors are not fit for use
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Greg92 »

pokerman wrote:
Greg92 wrote:
minchy wrote:
mds wrote:
minchy wrote: In my mind it is much more that they disobayed the FIA than were over the fuel flow limit.


But your mind doesn't count. RBR has argued that a TD is not a binding rule, and the FIA lawyer has admitted as such, only to counter with "but the others listened to it, why not RBR?" which is weak at best.
As of now it stands that a TD is not a binding rule.

Sorry, been at work so haven't been able to reply.

I know my mind doesn't count! But my point was that if they get the points back and it is decided that an FIA technical directive doesn't have to be obeyed as it were, then every other team would want to challenge the FIA themselves as their technical representative caused them a disadvantage in Australian, which would end up being a right mess!

My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race, even if they were within the rules. This isn't about pushing the regulations as far as they can, it is about gaining an advantage over other teams. Whether it is percieved as fair or not is irrelevant, it's something the FIA can't afford to back down on or they really will open a can of worms for themselves and everyone.


But not every other team's sensor has given two different readings though. And Red Bull hasn't challenged every sensor they've used this year.

So now it's illegal to gain legal advantage?

Red Bull have basically said that all the sensors are not fit for use


They may have but they have used them, haven't they? Except for the one that gave two different readings.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by minchy »

mds wrote:
minchy wrote:My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race


How can you know that they gained an advantage? Rather than not be put at a disadvantage?

That's kind of what I mean. At present RBR were disqualified for both not following the technical directive and for gaining an advantage. If the outcome of this is that they did not gain an advantage and technical directives are not classed as being part of the rules and reg and do not need to be followed, then the other teams who followed the technical directive were put at a disadvantage through no fault of their own. That is where all the problems may arise if RBR win the appeal.

It's almost like a petting farm I took my daughter to the other day (bare with me on this!), lets say that the law is the same as the technical and sporting regulations, and the rules of the park are the same as the technical directives. The park say that smoking is not permitted on the site, however, it is open air and on private ground so there is no law against it even though it is open to the public (trust me, I looked it up). So if someone smokes at the park, they have broken no laws, but the park is within it's rights to escort them from the premises with no refund even though the person did not break the law. (btw, I didn't get thrown off the premises, just told off by the staff as I hadn't seen the signs :D )

I know that last paragraph is a little confusing and really not much to do with this at all, but I think that f1 needs something like 'the buck stops here' rather all all this 'it's not written down, therefore we can fight it in an appeal' as things like this and the merc test fiasco last year just take too much time and really turn off most casually viewing people other than the fans like ourselves. Imagine if appeals were allowed in the FIFA world cup, where bad referee decisions happen all the time and replays just 5 mins later show how bad the decision was. The tournament would go on until the next was due 4 years later!

What ever the outcome of this doesn't really bother me either way. What I'm actually annoyed with is the FIA for not being able to enforce the 100kgs/hour rule accurately enough and had to give the technical directive in the first place, and then to be unable to enforce the directive. And also RBR for purposefully ignoring the directive as they believed they were within their rights to. It's the difference between sportsmanship and gamesmanship, 1 is performing in a gentlemanly like fashion, the other using dirty tactics to get the edge in the competition.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

minchy wrote:That's kind of what I mean. At present RBR were disqualified for both not following the technical directive and for gaining an advantage. If the outcome of this is that they did not gain an advantage and technical directives are not classed as being part of the rules and reg and do not need to be followed, then the other teams who followed the technical directive were put at a disadvantage through no fault of their own. That is where all the problems may arise if RBR win the appeal.


Part in bold: no, because if the others had sensors that read consistently and matched their own readings, then effectively RBR drew level with them and prevented being disadvantaged instead of gaining an advantage.

Or at least, that's the case they're making.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by RickM »

Greg92 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:I think Red Bull are going to lose based on the following excerpt from the article mentioned further below:-

'Dismissing Red Bull's claims that the FIA's approved sensors were unreliable he argued that the Austrian team's alternative system by which it measured the flow was itself not "100 per cent" accurate, whereas the official sensors are "rigorously tested and rigorously calibrated."'

The entire article:-
http://www.pitpass.com/51356/Red-Bull-appeal-verdict-due-on-Tuesday


Is Mercedes really that scared of Red Bull?

I'd understand if a Mercedes driver ended behind Ricciardo but even then I doubt it would be worth engaging an expensive lawyer (I presume) for a measly 3 points.

I might see another agenda where Mercedes is trying to discredit Red Bull but that's too much for no reason, unless it's petty revenge. It's not like Mercedes and Red Bull compete for the same market.

Maybe my memory is failing now but I don't recall even Ferrari being so vocal against McLaren back in 2007.

Personally I think it's revenge for last year's tires and Red Bull's domination but honestly I find it childish.


Merc are getting their own back. Red Bull really dug the knife in during the Pirelli test lawsuit (Horner especially, who attended personally and commented to the media that he was there to make sure Mercedes were found guilty). We all know how petty teams can be...and in this case, Red Bull started it :P
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minchy
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by minchy »

mds wrote:
minchy wrote:That's kind of what I mean. At present RBR were disqualified for both not following the technical directive and for gaining an advantage. If the outcome of this is that they did not gain an advantage and technical directives are not classed as being part of the rules and reg and do not need to be followed, then the other teams who followed the technical directive were put at a disadvantage through no fault of their own. That is where all the problems may arise if RBR win the appeal.


Part in bold: no, because if the others had sensors that read consistently and matched their own readings, then effectively RBR drew level with them and prevented being disadvantaged instead of gaining an advantage.

Or at least, that's the case they're making.

From what McLaren at least have said, they didn't match their own reading! I'm guessing from the uproar Mercedes are now giving, they thought the same as McLaren as well?
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Greg92 »

minchy wrote:
mds wrote:
minchy wrote:My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race


How can you know that they gained an advantage? Rather than not be put at a disadvantage?

That's kind of what I mean. At present RBR were disqualified for both not following the technical directive and for gaining an advantage. If the outcome of this is that they did not gain an advantage and technical directives are not classed as being part of the rules and reg and do not need to be followed, then the other teams who followed the technical directive were put at a disadvantage through no fault of their own. That is where all the problems may arise if RBR win the appeal.

It's almost like a petting farm I took my daughter to the other day (bare with me on this!), lets say that the law is the same as the technical and sporting regulations, and the rules of the park are the same as the technical directives. The park say that smoking is not permitted on the site, however, it is open air and on private ground so there is no law against it even though it is open to the public (trust me, I looked it up). So if someone smokes at the park, they have broken no laws, but the park is within it's rights to escort them from the premises with no refund even though the person did not break the law. (btw, I didn't get thrown off the premises, just told off by the staff as I hadn't seen the signs :D )

I know that last paragraph is a little confusing and really not much to do with this at all, but I think that f1 needs something like 'the buck stops here' rather all all this 'it's not written down, therefore we can fight it in an appeal' as things like this and the merc test fiasco last year just take too much time and really turn off most casually viewing people other than the fans like ourselves. Imagine if appeals were allowed in the FIFA world cup, where bad referee decisions happen all the time and replays just 5 mins later show how bad the decision was. The tournament would go on until the next was due 4 years later!

What ever the outcome of this doesn't really bother me either way. What I'm actually annoyed with is the FIA for not being able to enforce the 100kgs/hour rule accurately enough and had to give the technical directive in the first place, and then to be unable to enforce the directive. And also RBR for purposefully ignoring the directive as they believed they were within their rights to. It's the difference between sportsmanship and gamesmanship, 1 is performing in a gentlemanly like fashion, the other using dirty tactics to get the edge in the competition.


Red Bull were NOT disqualified for gaining an advantage. Period.

As for the rest I don't understand it at all.

First, you're comparing apples to oranges and pears to lemons when you compare FIFA's world cup to F1 and soccer's game-time decisions with F1's implementation of regulations and directives. Red Bull aren't appealing a drive through penalty issued during the race, are they? And FIA hasn't postponed the rest of the season until the verdict, nor have the races been longer or different because of it. Or are you insinuating that FIA takes as long as a soccer referee to make a decision? Or otherwise that bad FIA decisions happen all the time?

Second, are you really OK with the FIFA world cup where bad referee decisions happen all the time?

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Flash2k11 »

By admitting that their own measurements cant be proved to be wholly accurate they have surely shot any argument they have with using their own measurements instead of the FIA measurements to fairy cakes.

I was of the opinion that this appeal had the faint whiff of desperation before today, now it seems desperate at best.
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minchy
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by minchy »

Greg92 wrote:
minchy wrote:
mds wrote:
minchy wrote:My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race


How can you know that they gained an advantage? Rather than not be put at a disadvantage?

That's kind of what I mean. At present RBR were disqualified for both not following the technical directive and for gaining an advantage. If the outcome of this is that they did not gain an advantage and technical directives are not classed as being part of the rules and reg and do not need to be followed, then the other teams who followed the technical directive were put at a disadvantage through no fault of their own. That is where all the problems may arise if RBR win the appeal.

It's almost like a petting farm I took my daughter to the other day (bare with me on this!), lets say that the law is the same as the technical and sporting regulations, and the rules of the park are the same as the technical directives. The park say that smoking is not permitted on the site, however, it is open air and on private ground so there is no law against it even though it is open to the public (trust me, I looked it up). So if someone smokes at the park, they have broken no laws, but the park is within it's rights to escort them from the premises with no refund even though the person did not break the law. (btw, I didn't get thrown off the premises, just told off by the staff as I hadn't seen the signs :D )

I know that last paragraph is a little confusing and really not much to do with this at all, but I think that f1 needs something like 'the buck stops here' rather all all this 'it's not written down, therefore we can fight it in an appeal' as things like this and the merc test fiasco last year just take too much time and really turn off most casually viewing people other than the fans like ourselves. Imagine if appeals were allowed in the FIFA world cup, where bad referee decisions happen all the time and replays just 5 mins later show how bad the decision was. The tournament would go on until the next was due 4 years later!

What ever the outcome of this doesn't really bother me either way. What I'm actually annoyed with is the FIA for not being able to enforce the 100kgs/hour rule accurately enough and had to give the technical directive in the first place, and then to be unable to enforce the directive. And also RBR for purposefully ignoring the directive as they believed they were within their rights to. It's the difference between sportsmanship and gamesmanship, 1 is performing in a gentlemanly like fashion, the other using dirty tactics to get the edge in the competition.


Red Bull were NOT disqualified for gaining an advantage. Period.

As for the rest I don't understand it at all.

First, you're comparing apples to oranges and pears to lemons when you compare FIFA's world cup to F1 and soccer's game-time decisions with F1's implementation of regulations and directives. Red Bull aren't appealing a drive through penalty issued during the race, are they? And FIA hasn't postponed the rest of the season until the verdict, nor have the races been longer or different because of it. Or are you insinuating that FIA takes as long as a soccer referee to make a decision? Or otherwise that bad FIA decisions happen all the time?

Second, are you really OK with the FIFA world cup where bad referee decisions happen all the time?

It made sense in my head beforere writing it down!

My point being, what happens on race day, stays on race day! The results should not be decide in an appeal hearing a month later. The FIA should be listened to and what they say before a race or during a race should be adhered to even if it is not written in the regs already any communication written or verbally recorded should be taken as the regs.

I used the world cup as it is an important global tournament where decisions happen on the spur of the moment and cannot be appealed at a later date to alter the result. Overall I don't agree with the way football is refereed and their lack of willingness to use playback technology or a system like Hawkeye that tennis has, but a different argument and not on topic here. As I said, I don't really mind what the outcome is, but the whole fiasco how the penalty and appeal system works in f1 is ridiculous.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

I like the way Red Bull is reasoning: for us, rules are not binding. :lol:

Sounds as if that's what brought them four titles. ;-)

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by iano »

Juzzy82 wrote:I don't think they will win the appeal simply because of the consequences. The FIA appeals court won't allow it even if RBR have a sound argument.

Do we really believe the appeals process is so flawed that they ignore valid arguments if it does not suit them?

Not saying Red Bulls argument is valid. That is if all is fair to be determined by the court. Just saying if they do decide the argument is valid I believe they would act as a just court.

Both sides clearly believe they have an argument to consider.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by iano »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:I like the way Red Bull is reasoning: for us, rules are not binding. :lol:

Sounds as if that's what brought them four titles. ;-)


Imagine this. Hamilton way out in front in a race, and suddenly his fuel flow meter goes faulty and even when idling a stationary car it is now reporting too high a fuel flow. Everybody knows the readings have gone wrong and the meter is broken, but the only way to comply with the meter is to switch off the engine and retire. His car is working perfectly and the team can measure the flow accurately. Should he retire because the FIA supplied meter has broken? The rules would say yes, but could this be an example of when the rules need a rethink. Would you forgive the Team for telling Hamilton to finish the race and then argue there is a problem with the rules later.

They may be distorting things, but this is effectively the same as what Red Bull claims happened to them.

Red Bull are saying this is basically the same as what happened with Riccardo. His meter was faulty and the FIA knew it was faulty and had admitted it was faulty. During the race it went further faulty. Red Bull claim the rules need fixing to cover this.

Did other cars have meters with known faulty readings with the band aid fix of an 'offset'? That I do not know. If the situation only applied to Riccardo then it would strengthen Red Bulls claim.

Could manufacturer's own readings in the event of a faulty meter be open to manipulation and cheating by the team? Did this actually happen in Melbourne, and if not how can we be sure?

There are complex questions to answer and real arguments for both sides which is why it has gone this far.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Simon1969 »

iano wrote:
Imagine this. Hamilton way out in front in a race, and suddenly his fuel flow meter goes faulty and even when idling a stationary car it is now reporting too high a fuel flow. Everybody knows the readings have gone wrong and the meter is broken, but the only way to comply with the meter is to switch off the engine and retire. His car is working perfectly and the team can measure the flow accurately. Should he retire because the FIA supplied meter has broken? The rules would say yes



no, the rules don't say 'yes' at all.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by pokerman »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:I like the way Red Bull is reasoning: for us, rules are not binding. :lol:

Sounds as if that's what brought them four titles. ;-)

Yeah i know what you're saying, it sort of goes along with Newey saying there is no thing as spirit of the rules.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by pokerman »

iano wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:I like the way Red Bull is reasoning: for us, rules are not binding. :lol:

Sounds as if that's what brought them four titles. ;-)


Imagine this. Hamilton way out in front in a race, and suddenly his fuel flow meter goes faulty and even when idling a stationary car it is now reporting too high a fuel flow. Everybody knows the readings have gone wrong and the meter is broken, but the only way to comply with the meter is to switch off the engine and retire. His car is working perfectly and the team can measure the flow accurately. Should he retire because the FIA supplied meter has broken? The rules would say yes, but could this be an example of when the rules need a rethink. Would you forgive the Team for telling Hamilton to finish the race and then argue there is a problem with the rules later.

They may be distorting things, but this is effectively the same as what Red Bull claims happened to them.

Red Bull are saying this is basically the same as what happened with Riccardo. His meter was faulty and the FIA knew it was faulty and had admitted it was faulty. During the race it went further faulty. Red Bull claim the rules need fixing to cover this.

Did other cars have meters with known faulty readings with the band aid fix of an 'offset'? That I do not know. If the situation only applied to Riccardo then it would strengthen Red Bulls claim.

Could manufacturer's own readings in the event of a faulty meter be open to manipulation and cheating by the team? Did this actually happen in Melbourne, and if not how can we be sure?

There are complex questions to answer and real arguments for both sides which is why it has gone this far.

There are back up systems, apparently Ricciardo's sensor failed in Bahrain but that didn't stop him from finishing 4th after starting 13th on the grid, there's nothing like being over dramatic though
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by spronkey »

The thing that gets me is that in sport you do as much as you can without breaking the rules. That makes sense.

In this sport in particular, 1% is the difference between a podium or not.

If Red Bull were seeing inconsistent results from a sensor, and had a recommendation from the FIA in a TD to use an offset with the faulty sensor, then found that it was going to give them a disadvantage vs what the actual rules allow them to do, then fair enough, use a different, but still accurate and reproducible measuring technique.

If the other teams were experiencing inconsistent sensors and running their fuel flow below maximum allowed to ensure they were within the rules, then I just see that as those teams playing it safe and not making the most of their situation(s). In the same way that a team might choose a less risky strategy, or to not push harder at a certain point in the race, for safety reasons.

I think both the 100kg fuel limit and the 100kg/h fuel flow limit are farcical anyway. Use one or the other, but not both.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by purchville »

If anyone wants an example of the FIA reinstating Driver points, not reinstating Constructor points, AND fining a team... then look no further than the 1995 Brazilian Grand Prix.

There is a precedent.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by cm97 »

mds wrote:
minchy wrote:My opinion remains that Red Bull gained an advantage over other teams that race


How can you know that they gained an advantage? Rather than not be put at a disadvantage?


Well even Newey has admitted to an approx 0.4 sec advantage with their settings.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113447

Red Bull are really in the wrong here. The evidence shows that when they slowed the fuel rate per the FIA's request between laps 8-16, Rosberg's margin increased quite substantially. By reverting to their numbers, they ignored the FIA and admit to gaining an advantage. This surely must punished in some form, otherwise we are really inviting teams to ignore the FIA when it's convenient for them.

As for Mercedes, I guess now they are winning, they want to flex their muscle, esspecially considering their test ban last year, which really blocked any chance for them to build any second half challenge to RBR. 18 Pts is a lot, just ask Alonso, with those 18 points he could be a 5 time WDC. If Mercedes see RBR as a threat (it would be silly not to), then the money invested in a lawyer is relatively speaking nothing, when the result could mean the possibility of winning or losing 2 Championships.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Clarky »

iano wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:I like the way Red Bull is reasoning: for us, rules are not binding. :lol:

Sounds as if that's what brought them four titles. ;-)


Imagine this. Hamilton way out in front in a race, and suddenly his fuel flow meter goes faulty and even when idling a stationary car it is now reporting too high a fuel flow. Everybody knows the readings have gone wrong and the meter is broken, but the only way to comply with the meter is to switch off the engine and retire. His car is working perfectly and the team can measure the flow accurately. Should he retire because the FIA supplied meter has broken? The rules would say yes, but could this be an example of when the rules need a rethink. Would you forgive the Team for telling Hamilton to finish the race and then argue there is a problem with the rules later.

They may be distorting things, but this is effectively the same as what Red Bull claims happened to them.

Red Bull are saying this is basically the same as what happened with Riccardo. His meter was faulty and the FIA knew it was faulty and had admitted it was faulty. During the race it went further faulty. Red Bull claim the rules need fixing to cover this.

Did other cars have meters with known faulty readings with the band aid fix of an 'offset'? That I do not know. If the situation only applied to Riccardo then it would strengthen Red Bulls claim.

Could manufacturer's own readings in the event of a faulty meter be open to manipulation and cheating by the team? Did this actually happen in Melbourne, and if not how can we be sure?

There are complex questions to answer and real arguments for both sides which is why it has gone this far.

The FIA have a backup system!

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Zoue »

iano wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:I like the way Red Bull is reasoning: for us, rules are not binding. :lol:

Sounds as if that's what brought them four titles. ;-)


Imagine this. Hamilton way out in front in a race, and suddenly his fuel flow meter goes faulty and even when idling a stationary car it is now reporting too high a fuel flow. Everybody knows the readings have gone wrong and the meter is broken, but the only way to comply with the meter is to switch off the engine and retire. His car is working perfectly and the team can measure the flow accurately. Should he retire because the FIA supplied meter has broken? The rules would say yes, but could this be an example of when the rules need a rethink. Would you forgive the Team for telling Hamilton to finish the race and then argue there is a problem with the rules later.

They may be distorting things, but this is effectively the same as what Red Bull claims happened to them.

Red Bull are saying this is basically the same as what happened with Riccardo. His meter was faulty and the FIA knew it was faulty and had admitted it was faulty. During the race it went further faulty. Red Bull claim the rules need fixing to cover this.

Did other cars have meters with known faulty readings with the band aid fix of an 'offset'? That I do not know. If the situation only applied to Riccardo then it would strengthen Red Bulls claim.

Could manufacturer's own readings in the event of a faulty meter be open to manipulation and cheating by the team? Did this actually happen in Melbourne, and if not how can we be sure?

There are complex questions to answer and real arguments for both sides which is why it has gone this far.

I don't think this example matches at all.

The FIA never admitted the sensor was faulty, as far as I am aware. The sensor didn't actually break at any point, nor did the team report the sensor as faulty to the FIA. One of the issues here is that they simply ignored the FIA and went their own way.

In your scenario Lewis would not have had to stop because everyone would have seen that the sensor failed and they have contingency plans for that.

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

cm97 wrote:Well even Newey has admitted to an approx 0.4 sec advantage with their settings.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113447


Newey has reported a difference of 0.4 seconds between the FIA's settings, which they believed to put them at a competitive disadvantage, and the settings that they claim to have been the correct ones.

The evidence shows that when they slowed the fuel rate per the FIA's request between laps 8-16, Rosberg's margin increased quite substantially.


The evidence shows that most of those laps were SC laps.
What it also shows is that the gap from laps 3-5 increased more rapidly than the gap from laps 8-10 (before the SC).
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by slide »

FIA will look fools if they give in to red bull , so I don't see red bull winning, altho for Riccardo it doesn't seem fair

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by cm97 »

mds wrote:
cm97 wrote:Well even Newey has admitted to an approx 0.4 sec advantage with their settings.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113447


Newey has reported a difference of 0.4 seconds between the FIA's settings, which they believed to put them at a competitive disadvantage, and the settings that they claim to have been the correct ones.


Which their competition was using at least within the tolerance limit , hence they effectively gained .4 over what their competition was running. Had the FIA not informed them, then a penalty would be harsh, however they were informed that they were in the wrong and refused to maintain the flow that was requested.

Also, answering the OP's question; I would like to see Dan's points reinstated but not the teams. Considering Ferrari is large red cigarette looking rolling circus act, Dan is the only possible chance in the WDC that I strongly support. However, I can't see the FIA overturning any penalty issued. It would weaken their authority and I don't think RBR case is strong enough.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by imbrugliaboy »

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by mds »

cm97 wrote:Which their competition was using at least within the tolerance limit , hence they effectively gained .4 over what their competition was running.


The case they're trying to make is they had a faulty sensor that gave inconsistent readings, and using the offset to apply on this inconsistent sensor would have put them on a disadvantage compared to the others.

However, I can't see the FIA overturning any penalty issued. It would weaken their authority and I don't think RBR case is strong enough.


I believe at this point it's not the FIA anymore? I thought the tribunal is third party that hears both the cases of the FIA and that of RBR? Or is the tribunal led by the FIA?
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Clarky »

RED BULL LOSE APPEAL...!

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by imbrugliaboy »

I was surprised that Horner was so confident to be honest.
They were on fairly shaky ground with their arguments and ignoring FIA instructions issued during the race was always going to go down like a lead balloon.
Time to move on for both parties.
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by A2jdl »

Clarky wrote:RED BULL LOSE APPEAL...!

:thumbup:
quite right too

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Clarky »

imbrugliaboy wrote:I was surprised that Horner was so confident to be honest.
They were on fairly shaky ground with their arguments and ignoring FIA instructions issued during the race was always going to go down like a lead balloon.
Time to move on for both parties.

Saying what the fans want to here?

or

Genuinely confident?

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Herb »

A2jdl wrote:
Clarky wrote:RED BULL LOSE APPEAL...!

:thumbup:
quite right too


Agreed, now can we please move along. We've got China to look forward to :D

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by A2jdl »

Herb wrote:
A2jdl wrote:
Clarky wrote:RED BULL LOSE APPEAL...!

:thumbup:
quite right too


Agreed, now can we please move along. We've got China to look forward to :D

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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Blackhander »

Well given the information that's leaked out so far I still think that is the wrong descision... I guess we'll have to wait to see the full reasoning on Friday
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Re: So what will the verdict be on Ricciardo?

Post by Yellowbin74 »

Glad the correct decision was made.

Its a shame it took so long though..

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