Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

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schumilegend
Posts: 567
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by schumilegend »

Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:53 am
schumilegend wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:33 pm
Delphic wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:18 pm
Clearly the two have been the miles above everyone else. Choosing one or the other is like splitting hairs.

Whoever wins the WDC, truly deserves it, assuming both finish races. Although, if Max has a DNF and Lewis wins then that would be very harsh for Max as he has been super consistent through the season. Likewise, if Lewis has a DNF and Max wins, it wont be as harsh as LH/ Merc had a rough start and left everything at the very last moment (needing to be perfect for 4 races in a row). Too little, too late. Full marks for not giving up though.

If anything this season should also put rest the stupid theory that Hamilton falters under pressure, cannot perform when he is challenged, etc. Last few weeks have shown quite the opposite.
Verstappen has been clearly the superior driver this year, not sure what you talking... If not for the lost points in Silverstone, Baku and Hungary this championship would have been over... Hamilton has been super lucky this year which isn't a surprise as he is quite clearly the luckiest driver in the history of the sport
I'd accept the argument that Verstappen has been the better driver of the two over this season but that argument loses credibility when it's coupled with the notion that Hamilton is the luckiest driver in the history of the sport.
Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..

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Johnson
Posts: 2361
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:53 am
schumilegend wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:33 pm


Verstappen has been clearly the superior driver this year, not sure what you talking... If not for the lost points in Silverstone, Baku and Hungary this championship would have been over... Hamilton has been super lucky this year which isn't a surprise as he is quite clearly the luckiest driver in the history of the sport
I'd accept the argument that Verstappen has been the better driver of the two over this season but that argument loses credibility when it's coupled with the notion that Hamilton is the luckiest driver in the history of the sport.
Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.

schumilegend
Posts: 567
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by schumilegend »

Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:53 am

I'd accept the argument that Verstappen has been the better driver of the two over this season but that argument loses credibility when it's coupled with the notion that Hamilton is the luckiest driver in the history of the sport.
Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years

mikeyg123
Posts: 20516
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm


Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years
Schumacher was banned for 25% of the season.

The Williams was probably the faster car by season end but it started the slower.

On equal terms Hill didn't beat Schumacher in a single race in 1994.

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Johnson
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm


Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years
No comment on him winning races by record margins?

Schumacher had 8 wins and two 2nds. That was all his results. He also broke the record for the best start to an F1 season in F1 history, 6 wins and 1 second and remains Schumachers best ever start to a season.

Aren't you a Schumacher fan, how well do you even know 1994? Do I need to point out that Schumacher missed 25% of the season through suspensions and bans. 4/16. Thats like missing 6 races in the current setup... and still winning the title... and doing it in the second best car?

1995 is certainly more debatable, the Williams was definitely faster but more unreliable. It depends how you weight speed vs reliability.

Fiki
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Fiki »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:53 am
schumilegend wrote:
Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:33 pm


Verstappen has been clearly the superior driver this year, not sure what you talking... If not for the lost points in Silverstone, Baku and Hungary this championship would have been over... Hamilton has been super lucky this year which isn't a surprise as he is quite clearly the luckiest driver in the history of the sport
I'd accept the argument that Verstappen has been the better driver of the two over this season but that argument loses credibility when it's coupled with the notion that Hamilton is the luckiest driver in the history of the sport.
Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
Putting possible technical cheating aside for a moment, at least in the first half of the 1994 season Schumacher did have the best car. There may have been an element of being more suited to the race than qualifying, but the results spoke for themselves.
I would say that in both years Schumacher had a bespoke car.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

schumilegend
Posts: 567
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by schumilegend »

Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:21 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm


None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years
No comment on him winning races by record margins?

Schumacher had 8 wins and two 2nds. That was all his results. He also broke the record for the best start to an F1 season in F1 history, 6 wins and 1 second and remains Schumachers best ever start to a season.

Aren't you a Schumacher fan, how well do you even know 1994? Do I need to point out that Schumacher missed 25% of the season through suspensions and bans. 4/16. Thats like missing 6 races in the current setup... and still winning the title... and doing it in the second best car?

1995 is certainly more debatable, the Williams was definitely faster but more unreliable. It depends how you weight speed vs reliability.
To call the Benetton Ford of 1994 equal to the Williams is just crazy... the only thing that made it appear that way was the driver.. No doubt in my mind that if Schumi were in the Williams 94 and 95 season it would be a whitewash
Oh and Schumi had a 2 race ban not 4...

mikeyg123
Posts: 20516
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:21 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm


LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years
No comment on him winning races by record margins?

Schumacher had 8 wins and two 2nds. That was all his results. He also broke the record for the best start to an F1 season in F1 history, 6 wins and 1 second and remains Schumachers best ever start to a season.

Aren't you a Schumacher fan, how well do you even know 1994? Do I need to point out that Schumacher missed 25% of the season through suspensions and bans. 4/16. Thats like missing 6 races in the current setup... and still winning the title... and doing it in the second best car?

1995 is certainly more debatable, the Williams was definitely faster but more unreliable. It depends how you weight speed vs reliability.
To call the Benetton Ford of 1994 equal to the Williams is just crazy... the only thing that made it appear that way was the driver.. No doubt in my mind that if Schumi were in the Williams 94 and 95 season it would be a whitewash
Oh and Schumi had a 2 race ban not 4...
And he was DSQ'd from two other races. Effectively banning him from 25% the season. Schumacher won every single race he wasn't DSQ'd from or suffered really poor luck in. Schumacher WAS utterly dominant. It's actually, quite possibly his most dominant season in terms of on track results. The Williams and Benetton being about equal over the season makes sense all things considered.

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Johnson
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:14 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:21 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm


LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years
No comment on him winning races by record margins?

Schumacher had 8 wins and two 2nds. That was all his results. He also broke the record for the best start to an F1 season in F1 history, 6 wins and 1 second and remains Schumachers best ever start to a season.

Aren't you a Schumacher fan, how well do you even know 1994? Do I need to point out that Schumacher missed 25% of the season through suspensions and bans. 4/16. Thats like missing 6 races in the current setup... and still winning the title... and doing it in the second best car?

1995 is certainly more debatable, the Williams was definitely faster but more unreliable. It depends how you weight speed vs reliability.
To call the Benetton Ford of 1994 equal to the Williams is just crazy... the only thing that made it appear that way was the driver.. No doubt in my mind that if Schumi were in the Williams 94 and 95 season it would be a whitewash
Oh and Schumi had a 2 race ban not 4...
1994 was a whitewash in the Benetton. 2 disqualifications, 2 race bans = 4. But I’m guessing you knew that already but maybe not.

schumilegend
Posts: 567
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:11 pm

Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by schumilegend »

Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:21 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:11 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm


None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Hmm - so a mediocre driver like Hill was able to take Schumacher to the last race of the season in an equal car? Senna would have won it comfortably in 1994.. The Benetton wasn't an equal to Williams in 1994 and 1995... You're deluded if you feel that... Schumacher would have been even more dominant in Williams those 2 years
No comment on him winning races by record margins?

Schumacher had 8 wins and two 2nds. That was all his results. He also broke the record for the best start to an F1 season in F1 history, 6 wins and 1 second and remains Schumachers best ever start to a season.

Aren't you a Schumacher fan, how well do you even know 1994? Do I need to point out that Schumacher missed 25% of the season through suspensions and bans. 4/16. Thats like missing 6 races in the current setup... and still winning the title... and doing it in the second best car?

1995 is certainly more debatable, the Williams was definitely faster but more unreliable. It depends how you weight speed vs reliability.
You leave out the fact that Senna was dead and Hill was a mediocre driver... I don't think Schumi would have romped off to that start had Senna lived who was a top driver and could show what the car was capable of

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Johnson
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

Senna was 30-0 down even if he did not die and the one race they did together, Schumacher was comfortably quicker.
I will agree with Adrian Newey who says in his book the 94 Williams had a huge design flaw with the airflow around the sidepod that was not solved until mid season and the Benetton the better car until then.

Siao7
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm
tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:53 am

I'd accept the argument that Verstappen has been the better driver of the two over this season but that argument loses credibility when it's coupled with the notion that Hamilton is the luckiest driver in the history of the sport.
Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Nice try, but you need to give some context about 1994. Brazil and Aida was because Senna crashed out (unless you believe he would have lapped Senna, I have a bridge to sell you in that case) and the first Williams car was terrible. When they brought the B car out, it was a different story.

In any case, the B194 was a beast in Schumacher's hands, but not so much for Lehto and Jos the boss...

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:12 am
In any case, the B194 was a beast in Schumacher's hands, but not so much for Lehto and Jos the boss...
I remember an old Hamilton interview where he joked that his father reckoned if he had been given the opportunity he could have been F1 WDC, and it's ironic how Max Verstappen's father is literally the only father of the current grid who can't make that claim as it has been disproved!

Siao7
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:57 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:12 am
In any case, the B194 was a beast in Schumacher's hands, but not so much for Lehto and Jos the boss...
I remember an old Hamilton interview where he joked that his father reckoned if he had been given the opportunity he could have been F1 WDC, and it's ironic how Max Verstappen's father is literally the only father of the current grid who can't make that claim as it has been disproved!
Ha, so true!

Jos was always such a mystery, could be fast but as reliable as a career politician!

pokerman
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by pokerman »

In Brazil Senna couldn't live with Schumacher and I guess in part that's why he spun, trying so hard at his home race, I would say it was Senna's incredible qualifying ability that got him 3 poles in an inferior car. As to Schumacher's teammates well did they have the same car as Schumacher, Jos the Boss alludes to that not being the case in 1994, was Schumacher's car even legal, Senna had doubts and there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.

I thought it was generally excepted that the Bennetton was the better car in 1994 and the Williams was the better car in 1995, it was said that it was Hill's failure to win the title in 1995 that cost him his seat at Williams.
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
In Brazil Senna couldn't live with Schumacher and I guess in part that's why he spun, trying so hard at his home race, I would say it was Senna's incredible qualifying ability that got him 3 poles in an inferior car. As to Schumacher's teammates well did they have the same car as Schumacher, Jos the Boss alludes to that not being the case in 1994, was Schumacher's car even legal, Senna had doubts and there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.

I thought it was generally excepted that the Bennetton was the better car in 1994 and the Williams was the better car in 1995, it was said that it was Hill's failure to win the title in 1995 that cost him his seat at Williams.
I think 94 was about even. Benetton absolutely started off faster but I think by mid season Williams had caught up and for the last leg of the season was quicker.

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
In Brazil Senna couldn't live with Schumacher and I guess in part that's why he spun, trying so hard at his home race, I would say it was Senna's incredible qualifying ability that got him 3 poles in an inferior car. As to Schumacher's teammates well did they have the same car as Schumacher, Jos the Boss alludes to that not being the case in 1994, was Schumacher's car even legal, Senna had doubts and there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.

I thought it was generally excepted that the Bennetton was the better car in 1994 and the Williams was the better car in 1995, it was said that it was Hill's failure to win the title in 1995 that cost him his seat at Williams.
I think 94 was about even. Benetton absolutely started off faster but I think by mid season Williams had caught up and for the last leg of the season was quicker.
Without all the penalties laid on Schumacher the catching up by Williams would have been very much too late, the season would have been over with races to spare, I don't think Senna could have done it either, however I guess it's something I should look at more closely rather than relying on a 27 year old memory.
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:36 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
In Brazil Senna couldn't live with Schumacher and I guess in part that's why he spun, trying so hard at his home race, I would say it was Senna's incredible qualifying ability that got him 3 poles in an inferior car. As to Schumacher's teammates well did they have the same car as Schumacher, Jos the Boss alludes to that not being the case in 1994, was Schumacher's car even legal, Senna had doubts and there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.

I thought it was generally excepted that the Bennetton was the better car in 1994 and the Williams was the better car in 1995, it was said that it was Hill's failure to win the title in 1995 that cost him his seat at Williams.
I think 94 was about even. Benetton absolutely started off faster but I think by mid season Williams had caught up and for the last leg of the season was quicker.
Without all the penalties laid on Schumacher the catching up by Williams would have been very much too late, the season would have been over with races to spare, I don't think Senna could have done it either, however I guess it's something I should look at more closely rather than relying on a 27 year old memory.
Senna wouldn't have caught up because he would have crashed out of the first 3 races which Schumacher won. If Schumacher crashed out the last 3 races as well then Senna might have a reasonable chance.

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by MistaVega23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:50 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:36 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
In Brazil Senna couldn't live with Schumacher and I guess in part that's why he spun, trying so hard at his home race, I would say it was Senna's incredible qualifying ability that got him 3 poles in an inferior car. As to Schumacher's teammates well did they have the same car as Schumacher, Jos the Boss alludes to that not being the case in 1994, was Schumacher's car even legal, Senna had doubts and there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.

I thought it was generally excepted that the Bennetton was the better car in 1994 and the Williams was the better car in 1995, it was said that it was Hill's failure to win the title in 1995 that cost him his seat at Williams.
I think 94 was about even. Benetton absolutely started off faster but I think by mid season Williams had caught up and for the last leg of the season was quicker.
Without all the penalties laid on Schumacher the catching up by Williams would have been very much too late, the season would have been over with races to spare, I don't think Senna could have done it either, however I guess it's something I should look at more closely rather than relying on a 27 year old memory.
Senna wouldn't have caught up because he would have crashed out of the first 3 races which Schumacher won. If Schumacher crashed out the last 3 races as well then Senna might have a reasonable chance.
Going by the old points system (4 points difference between P1 and P2), Senna could have caught Schumacher within 7 races had he won them all and Schumi finished P2, and given how much-improved the Williams became mid-season who knows how he would've performed in it.

Even Mansell almost managed to bag pole on his return in France, and he'd been out of F1 for 18 months.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by MistaVega23 »

[quote="mikeyg123
On equal terms Hill didn't beat Schumacher in a single race in 1994.
[/quote]
I take it you don't count Suzuka as an equal race?
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

MistaVega23 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:23 am
[quote="mikeyg123
On equal terms Hill didn't beat Schumacher in a single race in 1994.
I take it you don't count Suzuka as an equal race?
[/quote]

No. The red flag saved Hill a pitstop. He was behind Schumacher until then.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:12 am
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 4:15 pm


Name me one driver in the history of the sport who has enjoyed dominant to easily equal best machinery for close to 200 races coupled with bullet proof reliability and an absolutely well oiled operating team?
None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Nice try, but you need to give some context about 1994. Brazil and Aida was because Senna crashed out (unless you believe he would have lapped Senna, I have a bridge to sell you in that case) and the first Williams car was terrible. When they brought the B car out, it was a different story.

In any case, the B194 was a beast in Schumacher's hands, but not so much for Lehto and Jos the boss...
Nice try? Schumacher hounded Senna in Brazil and was massively held up. The Williams was a good qualifying car because it was a V10, however come race day the V8 Benetton was much lighter due to using approximately 20% less fuel. In qualifying they both run low fuel so advantage to Williams. But come race day the Williams is heavier and slower.

In Brazil, Senna held Schumacher up for the first 20 laps, staying with 1 second of him for all of it. Then Benetton were able to jump Williams in the pits with a short stop in part with there car needed much less fuel and possibly illegally removing fuel filters to speed up the fuel which they were later found guilty of. Schumacher then built a gap of 6-8 seconds for laps 20-55 before Senna spun out, saying afterwards that he was doing qualifying laps for the entire race to keep up with the Benetton. Hill also spun at the exact same spot in the race due to the rear inbalance in the car.

But you are exactly right, the first Williams was terrible and then the improved once the B came out and it became the best car. However, the B car came for race 7 of a 16 round championship. Schumacher had 6 races of a better car and he had overall a more reliable car than the Williams. Hence why the 1994 Benetton was as good as equal to the Williams.

The B spec Willaims was superior to the Benetton, no doubt about that. However, you can't ignore the first 6 races of which Schumacher comfortably won 5 and a 2nd place and effectively won the WDC. Not finishing 6 of the last 10 races could lose him that lead gained in that period.

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Johnson »

MistaVega23 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:21 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:50 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:36 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:26 am
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
In Brazil Senna couldn't live with Schumacher and I guess in part that's why he spun, trying so hard at his home race, I would say it was Senna's incredible qualifying ability that got him 3 poles in an inferior car. As to Schumacher's teammates well did they have the same car as Schumacher, Jos the Boss alludes to that not being the case in 1994, was Schumacher's car even legal, Senna had doubts and there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.

I thought it was generally excepted that the Bennetton was the better car in 1994 and the Williams was the better car in 1995, it was said that it was Hill's failure to win the title in 1995 that cost him his seat at Williams.
I think 94 was about even. Benetton absolutely started off faster but I think by mid season Williams had caught up and for the last leg of the season was quicker.
Without all the penalties laid on Schumacher the catching up by Williams would have been very much too late, the season would have been over with races to spare, I don't think Senna could have done it either, however I guess it's something I should look at more closely rather than relying on a 27 year old memory.
Senna wouldn't have caught up because he would have crashed out of the first 3 races which Schumacher won. If Schumacher crashed out the last 3 races as well then Senna might have a reasonable chance.
Going by the old points system (4 points difference between P1 and P2), Senna could have caught Schumacher within 7 races had he won them all and Schumi finished P2, and given how much-improved the Williams became mid-season who knows how he would've performed in it.

Even Mansell almost managed to bag pole on his return in France, and he'd been out of F1 for 18 months.
Mansell did get pole the Australia 1994, but largely because the second qualifying session was rained off. But the Williams with its V10 was a much better car for qualifying than the V8 Benetton

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Johnson »

As for the second Benetton, during the 6 race period in which Schumacher cemented the title. He outqualified him team mate by 1.9, 2.1, 0.7, 4.0, 1.1 and 2.2 seconds. An average of 2.0 seconds. No doubt a large portion of that was Schumachers talent but the second Benetton can not be taken seriously the way the drivers were treated.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:07 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:12 am
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 5:50 pm


None but the are more races now, Schumacher would have got close to that number if he raced 20-22 races per season.

If we assume 20 races per season. 1994, 1995, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2006 he has 160 there alone.

He went 5 years without a mechanical DNF. Has Lewis still has not broken that one yet?
LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Nice try, but you need to give some context about 1994. Brazil and Aida was because Senna crashed out (unless you believe he would have lapped Senna, I have a bridge to sell you in that case) and the first Williams car was terrible. When they brought the B car out, it was a different story.

In any case, the B194 was a beast in Schumacher's hands, but not so much for Lehto and Jos the boss...
Nice try? Schumacher hounded Senna in Brazil and was massively held up. The Williams was a good qualifying car because it was a V10, however come race day the V8 Benetton was much lighter due to using approximately 20% less fuel. In qualifying they both run low fuel so advantage to Williams. But come race day the Williams is heavier and slower.

In Brazil, Senna held Schumacher up for the first 20 laps, staying with 1 second of him for all of it. Then Benetton were able to jump Williams in the pits with a short stop in part with there car needed much less fuel and possibly illegally removing fuel filters to speed up the fuel which they were later found guilty of. Schumacher then built a gap of 6-8 seconds for laps 20-55 before Senna spun out, saying afterwards that he was doing qualifying laps for the entire race to keep up with the Benetton. Hill also spun at the exact same spot in the race due to the rear inbalance in the car.

But you are exactly right, the first Williams was terrible and then the improved once the B came out and it became the best car. However, the B car came for race 7 of a 16 round championship. Schumacher had 6 races of a better car and he had overall a more reliable car than the Williams. Hence why the 1994 Benetton was as good as equal to the Williams.

The B spec Willaims was superior to the Benetton, no doubt about that. However, you can't ignore the first 6 races of which Schumacher comfortably won 5 and a 2nd place and effectively won the WDC. Not finishing 6 of the last 10 races could lose him that lead gained in that period.
You missed completely my point; you presented the Benetton lapping the whole field and being that much ahead of everyone else. Which wasn't really the case, Senna's retirements exaggerated the gap to the following cars. Benetton was surely faster (in Schumacher's hands), but not by that margin

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:42 pm
As for the second Benetton, during the 6 race period in which Schumacher cemented the title. He outqualified him team mate by 1.9, 2.1, 0.7, 4.0, 1.1 and 2.2 seconds. An average of 2.0 seconds. No doubt a large portion of that was Schumachers talent but the second Benetton can not be taken seriously the way the drivers were treated.
Lehto with a broken neck that was seriously unfit and Jos's first year? You really think that Benetton needed to treat them badly to have a deficit to Schumacher? The reality is that they were never good enough in the first place. Lehto was so bad that he was fired and brought Herbert for god sake.

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
The Spa one was not for a setup, it was for the wear of the plank underneath (that was debated a lot). Which other cars never got penalties for, most notably the Ferraris in the previous race that had far deeper scuff marks, so at least a suspicion of foul play on that one (well, not foul play but applying the rules whenever it suited them).

I am reading the Ibrar Malik's book at the moment, but haven't reached that part yet. Amazing book so far by the way

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:04 pm
Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:07 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:12 am
Johnson wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:52 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 6:27 pm


LOL 1994 and 1995 he had the best car or equal best car? Not sure what you were watching.. Eitherways the FACT is they didn't have that many races .. So Schumacher probably enjoyed half as many races of domination as Hamilton did..
I watched this, a short recap of the start of 1994...

Schumacher lapped the entire field in Brazil.
In Aida he won by 75 seconds and lapped up to P2.
San Marino he won by 55 seconds and happed up to P5.
Monaco he won by 40 seconds and lapped up to P3.
Spain he came 2nd stuck in only 5th gear
Canada he won by 40 seconds

What did you watch? This was the most dominated streak in F1 history. He was just about to lap Berger in Aida too, for back to back lapped the entire field.

The 1995 Williams was definitely faster than the Benetton though but way too unreliable. Hill had 3 mechanical DNFs and Coulthard 6 that year, Schumacher just one. The reliability of the Benetton brings it up close to equal for me.
Nice try, but you need to give some context about 1994. Brazil and Aida was because Senna crashed out (unless you believe he would have lapped Senna, I have a bridge to sell you in that case) and the first Williams car was terrible. When they brought the B car out, it was a different story.

In any case, the B194 was a beast in Schumacher's hands, but not so much for Lehto and Jos the boss...
Nice try? Schumacher hounded Senna in Brazil and was massively held up. The Williams was a good qualifying car because it was a V10, however come race day the V8 Benetton was much lighter due to using approximately 20% less fuel. In qualifying they both run low fuel so advantage to Williams. But come race day the Williams is heavier and slower.

In Brazil, Senna held Schumacher up for the first 20 laps, staying with 1 second of him for all of it. Then Benetton were able to jump Williams in the pits with a short stop in part with there car needed much less fuel and possibly illegally removing fuel filters to speed up the fuel which they were later found guilty of. Schumacher then built a gap of 6-8 seconds for laps 20-55 before Senna spun out, saying afterwards that he was doing qualifying laps for the entire race to keep up with the Benetton. Hill also spun at the exact same spot in the race due to the rear inbalance in the car.

But you are exactly right, the first Williams was terrible and then the improved once the B came out and it became the best car. However, the B car came for race 7 of a 16 round championship. Schumacher had 6 races of a better car and he had overall a more reliable car than the Williams. Hence why the 1994 Benetton was as good as equal to the Williams.

The B spec Willaims was superior to the Benetton, no doubt about that. However, you can't ignore the first 6 races of which Schumacher comfortably won 5 and a 2nd place and effectively won the WDC. Not finishing 6 of the last 10 races could lose him that lead gained in that period.
You missed completely my point; you presented the Benetton lapping the whole field and being that much ahead of everyone else. Which wasn't really the case, Senna's retirements exaggerated the gap to the following cars. Benetton was surely faster (in Schumacher's hands), but not by that margin
Yes, under normal circumstances he probably would have beaten Senna by 15-30 seconds in normal races, although Senna could lead the opening stint with the Williams 1 lap pace.

But for simplification. We can use Damon Hill that beat him in 1993 (with a car advantage) in all aspects, qualifying, points and race wins.

Brazil, he lapped Hill on lap 50/72
Aida, he was 60 seconds ahead of Hill when he broke down, although Hill did spin earlier.
Imola, he lapped Hill who may have been taking it easy
Monaco he out qualified Hill by 1.5 seconds, Hill crashed at the start.

So at the start of year, he lapped Hill in every race they both finished. But you are right as soon as the B spec came, Hill was finishing 15-25 seconds behind and that is when the Williams was probably better.

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Johnson »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:08 pm
Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:42 pm
As for the second Benetton, during the 6 race period in which Schumacher cemented the title. He outqualified him team mate by 1.9, 2.1, 0.7, 4.0, 1.1 and 2.2 seconds. An average of 2.0 seconds. No doubt a large portion of that was Schumachers talent but the second Benetton can not be taken seriously the way the drivers were treated.
Lehto with a broken neck that was seriously unfit and Jos's first year? You really think that Benetton needed to treat them badly to have a deficit to Schumacher? The reality is that they were never good enough in the first place. Lehto was so bad that he was fired and brought Herbert for god sake.
Yes never that good but not 2 seconds behind. But I agree, they can not be used to judge the car as was suggested above. Briatore is on record saying they did not have the resources to run two equal cars.

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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Fiki »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:39 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
The Spa one was not for a setup, it was for the wear of the plank underneath (that was debated a lot). Which other cars never got penalties for, most notably the Ferraris in the previous race that had far deeper scuff marks, so at least a suspicion of foul play on that one (well, not foul play but applying the rules whenever it suited them).

I am reading the Ibrar Malik's book at the moment, but haven't reached that part yet. Amazing book so far by the way
The Francorchamps disqualification was for excessive wear of the plank at the front, which indicated too low a ride height at the front. That points to an illegal set-up, whether on purpose or through carelesness.
You are right, it was debated a lot; I remember Benetton tried to bluff their way out of it through blaming it on a spin Schumacher had at Fagnes. Simply looking at the footage was enough to dismiss that; the plank was lifted further away from the track, not pushed into track or kerb.
I also remember Benetton said the other car was set-up exactly the same way, and that car's plank was fine after the race. I would suggest that if the set-ups were indeed identical, that possibly pointed to a difference in driving style.
I don't know the details of the Ferrari plank issue, but I would look for the difference between a few deep scuff marks versus an area that had been scuffed to an insufficient thickness.

Can you say a bit more about the Ibrar Malik book? It's the first time I hear about it.
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:39 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
The Spa one was not for a setup, it was for the wear of the plank underneath (that was debated a lot). Which other cars never got penalties for, most notably the Ferraris in the previous race that had far deeper scuff marks, so at least a suspicion of foul play on that one (well, not foul play but applying the rules whenever it suited them).

I am reading the Ibrar Malik's book at the moment, but haven't reached that part yet. Amazing book so far by the way
The Francorchamps disqualification was for excessive wear of the plank at the front, which indicated too low a ride height at the front. That points to an illegal set-up, whether on purpose or through carelesness.
You are right, it was debated a lot; I remember Benetton tried to bluff their way out of it through blaming it on a spin Schumacher had at Fagnes. Simply looking at the footage was enough to dismiss that; the plank was lifted further away from the track, not pushed into track or kerb.
I also remember Benetton said the other car was set-up exactly the same way, and that car's plank was fine after the race. I would suggest that if the set-ups were indeed identical, that possibly pointed to a difference in driving style.
I don't know the details of the Ferrari plank issue, but I would look for the difference between a few deep scuff marks versus an area that had been scuffed to an insufficient thickness.

Can you say a bit more about the Ibrar Malik book? It's the first time I hear about it.
It's called 1994 and it covers that season. Very comprehensive, he has interviewed and gathered info from many people involved from 1994. I'm still very early on in the book, but it gives a fantastic background of the season, the FIA and their political games, the rule changes before the season, etc.

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Johnson
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Johnson »

It sounds like a great book, is it in English?

I remember reading "A mechanics tale" about that season by Steve Matchett, it is a good read but he completely glosses over all of the controversy surrounding Benetton that season.

Siao7
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Siao7 »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:05 pm
It sounds like a great book, is it in English?

I remember reading "A mechanics tale" about that season by Steve Matchett, it is a good read but he completely glosses over all of the controversy surrounding Benetton that season.
Yeah, English. Never read the mechanic's tale, that is also supposed to be a good read

wire2004
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by wire2004 »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:39 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
The Spa one was not for a setup, it was for the wear of the plank underneath (that was debated a lot). Which other cars never got penalties for, most notably the Ferraris in the previous race that had far deeper scuff marks, so at least a suspicion of foul play on that one (well, not foul play but applying the rules whenever it suited them).

I am reading the Ibrar Malik's book at the moment, but haven't reached that part yet. Amazing book so far by the way
The Francorchamps disqualification was for excessive wear of the plank at the front, which indicated too low a ride height at the front. That points to an illegal set-up, whether on purpose or through carelesness.
You are right, it was debated a lot; I remember Benetton tried to bluff their way out of it through blaming it on a spin Schumacher had at Fagnes. Simply looking at the footage was enough to dismiss that; the plank was lifted further away from the track, not pushed into track or kerb.
I also remember Benetton said the other car was set-up exactly the same way, and that car's plank was fine after the race. I would suggest that if the set-ups were indeed identical, that possibly pointed to a difference in driving style.
I don't know the details of the Ferrari plank issue, but I would look for the difference between a few deep scuff marks versus an area that had been scuffed to an insufficient thickness.

Can you say a bit more about the Ibrar Malik book? It's the first time I hear about it.
It's called 1994 and it covers that season. Very comprehensive, he has interviewed and gathered info from many people involved from 1994. I'm still very early on in the book, but it gives a fantastic background of the season, the FIA and their political games, the rule changes before the season, etc.
Let's also clear up Silverstone.
Schumacher did pass hill on the formation lap. Something that had been done previously in previous races without punishment.
The problem arises that the British stewards screwed up.
Bennetton did not get the correct penalty for the correct incident within the time frames permitted under the rules in 1994. Which stated that a penalty must be notified and applied within 20 minutes of the incident occurring. Well considering that the penalty was applied 23 minuted after the penalty. In which bennetton was disputing before the clark of the course black flagging Schumacher for something that should never of been applicable as the time had run out in order to give the penalty in the first place. Then the fia saw there chance to apply a 2 race ban. The FIA clearly saw a opportunity to allow the championship to close up after the traumatic events that has taken place at imola. And also. It is Probably the reason why they changed the rules after that to give the stewards te extra 5 mins when it changed to 25 mins for a penalty to be applied.

pokerman
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:09 am
there's even suggestions that all the penalties that Schumacher received were partly because of doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
Illegal car set up was high wear on the wooden floor caused by excessive use of the kerbs, how F1 has changed, teams today appeal against all sorts of things without fear of being penalised further.
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World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 103 (1st)
Pole Positions: 103 (1st)
Podiums: 182 (1st)


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2014: Champion

pokerman
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:43 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:08 pm
Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:42 pm
As for the second Benetton, during the 6 race period in which Schumacher cemented the title. He outqualified him team mate by 1.9, 2.1, 0.7, 4.0, 1.1 and 2.2 seconds. An average of 2.0 seconds. No doubt a large portion of that was Schumachers talent but the second Benetton can not be taken seriously the way the drivers were treated.
Lehto with a broken neck that was seriously unfit and Jos's first year? You really think that Benetton needed to treat them badly to have a deficit to Schumacher? The reality is that they were never good enough in the first place. Lehto was so bad that he was fired and brought Herbert for god sake.
Yes never that good but not 2 seconds behind. But I agree, they can not be used to judge the car as was suggested above. Briatore is on record saying they did not have the resources to run two equal cars.
Briatore I believe also went on record years later saying that they didn't run equal cars during Alonso's title years alongside Fisichella.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 103 (1st)
Pole Positions: 103 (1st)
Podiums: 182 (1st)


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2014: Champion

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

wire2004 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:01 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:39 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:20 pm
No. Ignoring a black flag at Silverstone has nothing to do with the car. And the black flag was for a driver mistake, nothing technical.And the disqualification at Francorchamps was for an illegal car set-up, nothing to do with doubts about his car that couldn't be proven.
The race bans were the consequence of ignoring the Silverstone black flag, and appealing the resulting 1 race ban. Again, nothing to do with doubts about the car.
The Spa one was not for a setup, it was for the wear of the plank underneath (that was debated a lot). Which other cars never got penalties for, most notably the Ferraris in the previous race that had far deeper scuff marks, so at least a suspicion of foul play on that one (well, not foul play but applying the rules whenever it suited them).

I am reading the Ibrar Malik's book at the moment, but haven't reached that part yet. Amazing book so far by the way
The Francorchamps disqualification was for excessive wear of the plank at the front, which indicated too low a ride height at the front. That points to an illegal set-up, whether on purpose or through carelesness.
You are right, it was debated a lot; I remember Benetton tried to bluff their way out of it through blaming it on a spin Schumacher had at Fagnes. Simply looking at the footage was enough to dismiss that; the plank was lifted further away from the track, not pushed into track or kerb.
I also remember Benetton said the other car was set-up exactly the same way, and that car's plank was fine after the race. I would suggest that if the set-ups were indeed identical, that possibly pointed to a difference in driving style.
I don't know the details of the Ferrari plank issue, but I would look for the difference between a few deep scuff marks versus an area that had been scuffed to an insufficient thickness.

Can you say a bit more about the Ibrar Malik book? It's the first time I hear about it.
It's called 1994 and it covers that season. Very comprehensive, he has interviewed and gathered info from many people involved from 1994. I'm still very early on in the book, but it gives a fantastic background of the season, the FIA and their political games, the rule changes before the season, etc.
Let's also clear up Silverstone.
Schumacher did pass hill on the formation lap. Something that had been done previously in previous races without punishment.
The problem arises that the British stewards screwed up.
Bennetton did not get the correct penalty for the correct incident within the time frames permitted under the rules in 1994.
Nice try, but th race director Roland Bruynseraede, who went to Benetton’s garage to make them take the penalty was Belgian.

The people trying to argue the case the regulations had not been followed correctly, such as Pat Symonds, were British though.

wire2004
Posts: 2267
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:54 pm

Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by wire2004 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:11 pm
wire2004 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:01 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:39 pm


The Spa one was not for a setup, it was for the wear of the plank underneath (that was debated a lot). Which other cars never got penalties for, most notably the Ferraris in the previous race that had far deeper scuff marks, so at least a suspicion of foul play on that one (well, not foul play but applying the rules whenever it suited them).

I am reading the Ibrar Malik's book at the moment, but haven't reached that part yet. Amazing book so far by the way
The Francorchamps disqualification was for excessive wear of the plank at the front, which indicated too low a ride height at the front. That points to an illegal set-up, whether on purpose or through carelesness.
You are right, it was debated a lot; I remember Benetton tried to bluff their way out of it through blaming it on a spin Schumacher had at Fagnes. Simply looking at the footage was enough to dismiss that; the plank was lifted further away from the track, not pushed into track or kerb.
I also remember Benetton said the other car was set-up exactly the same way, and that car's plank was fine after the race. I would suggest that if the set-ups were indeed identical, that possibly pointed to a difference in driving style.
I don't know the details of the Ferrari plank issue, but I would look for the difference between a few deep scuff marks versus an area that had been scuffed to an insufficient thickness.

Can you say a bit more about the Ibrar Malik book? It's the first time I hear about it.
It's called 1994 and it covers that season. Very comprehensive, he has interviewed and gathered info from many people involved from 1994. I'm still very early on in the book, but it gives a fantastic background of the season, the FIA and their political games, the rule changes before the season, etc.
Let's also clear up Silverstone.
Schumacher did pass hill on the formation lap. Something that had been done previously in previous races without punishment.
The problem arises that the British stewards screwed up.
Bennetton did not get the correct penalty for the correct incident within the time frames permitted under the rules in 1994.
Nice try, but th race director Roland Bruynseraede, who went to Benetton’s garage to make them take the penalty was Belgian.

The people trying to argue the case the regulations had not been followed correctly, such as Pat Symonds, were British though.
As has been the case for years. The race director whether it was Charlie whiting. Michael masi or Roland Bruynseraede does not give the penalty for the incident. They are referred to the race stewards and the clark of the course who will follow the procedure to give the penalty out.

The whole incident was a massive mess that was not handled well from start to finnish at Silverstone in 1994.

Case in point. Just 4 years later they tried it again on Michael by applying the wrong penalty and again. I also believe they again Did not apply the penalty at the correct time frame. The difference is that ross brawn and Jean tost was more switched on than briatore walkinshaw and symonds to argue the penalty system (ross brawn probably learned from the 1994 incident)

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Williams Vs Benetton 1994 (split from Hamilton/Verstappen thread)

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

wire2004 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 9:25 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:11 pm
wire2004 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:01 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:37 pm
Fiki wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:45 pm
The Francorchamps disqualification was for excessive wear of the plank at the front, which indicated too low a ride height at the front. That points to an illegal set-up, whether on purpose or through carelesness.
You are right, it was debated a lot; I remember Benetton tried to bluff their way out of it through blaming it on a spin Schumacher had at Fagnes. Simply looking at the footage was enough to dismiss that; the plank was lifted further away from the track, not pushed into track or kerb.
I also remember Benetton said the other car was set-up exactly the same way, and that car's plank was fine after the race. I would suggest that if the set-ups were indeed identical, that possibly pointed to a difference in driving style.
I don't know the details of the Ferrari plank issue, but I would look for the difference between a few deep scuff marks versus an area that had been scuffed to an insufficient thickness.

Can you say a bit more about the Ibrar Malik book? It's the first time I hear about it.
It's called 1994 and it covers that season. Very comprehensive, he has interviewed and gathered info from many people involved from 1994. I'm still very early on in the book, but it gives a fantastic background of the season, the FIA and their political games, the rule changes before the season, etc.
Let's also clear up Silverstone.
Schumacher did pass hill on the formation lap. Something that had been done previously in previous races without punishment.
The problem arises that the British stewards screwed up.
Bennetton did not get the correct penalty for the correct incident within the time frames permitted under the rules in 1994.
Nice try, but th race director Roland Bruynseraede, who went to Benetton’s garage to make them take the penalty was Belgian.

The people trying to argue the case the regulations had not been followed correctly, such as Pat Symonds, were British though.
As has been the case for years. The race director whether it was Charlie whiting. Michael masi or Roland Bruynseraede does not give the penalty for the incident. They are referred to the race stewards and the clark of the course who will follow the procedure to give the penalty out.

The whole incident was a massive mess that was not handled well from start to finnish at Silverstone in 1994.

Case in point. Just 4 years later they tried it again on Michael by applying the wrong penalty and again. I also believe they again Did not apply the penalty at the correct time frame. The difference is that ross brawn and Jean tost was more switched on than briatore walkinshaw and symonds to argue the penalty system (ross brawn probably learned from the 1994 incident)
Can you provide a source that they were British?

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