Mercedes Engine Degredation

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Lukeism
Posts: 80
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:30 pm

Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by Lukeism »

Is this all BS? Surely Merc wouldn't build an engine that looses such a noticeable amount of power between races in a formula with a such a tight limit on engines.

Was the new engine = more power Mercedes propaganda to cover up what they were doing with their rear wing?

Is anyone else starting to think there is more going on here?

SlipstreamF1
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by SlipstreamF1 »

I think it has to do with reliability, as in they start the new engine with a powerful tune, and then have to detune it for each subsequent race in order to have it last 3 races. It wouldn't make sense for it to organically degrade. If they let it run as is it would run until it blows up.

wolfticket
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by wolfticket »

Mercedes have had the best engine/power unit for a long time now. The degradation seems to be more about dropping down to everyone else's level from their peak performance. It's entirely plausible while others have broadly caught up with close to the maximum possible sustainably, Mercedes are ringing the last of their advantage out where possible (i.e. early in the lifespan of the engine).
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FormulaFun
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by FormulaFun »

Probably hangover from when they could change engine modes as much as they wanted

pokerman
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by pokerman »

wolfticket wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:38 am
Mercedes have had the best engine/power unit for a long time now. The degradation seems to be more about dropping down to everyone else's level from their peak performance. It's entirely plausible while others have broadly caught up with close to the maximum possible sustainably, Mercedes are ringing the last of their advantage out where possible (i.e. early in the lifespan of the engine).
Wrong Ferrari had the best engine in 2018 and 2019, apparently todays reliability issues emanates from what they had to do for 2020 to try and combat the 2019 Ferrari monster engine, at the time they didn't know the Ferrari engine would be declared illegal for 2020.

They took a lot of risks with reliability in order to find as much power as possible and the downside is what we see today, I'm guessing last year they were able to dial the engine back a bit because of their car advantage.
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oz_karter
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by oz_karter »

It's really interesting. I think the Mercedes engine has always had an extreme level of performance available, but they only really used it in Q3 as it was detrimental and they had such an advantage overall.

But this year Red Bull & Verstappen are really pushing them. I think it's the same engine "mode" but they've had to access that performance for entire races, but cannot sustain that performance for multiple races without risking engine failure.

How they are doing it is a wonder. There is a big reason why Mercedes don't want any former drivers of their engines heading to Red Bull.

wolfticket
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by wolfticket »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:17 pm
wolfticket wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:38 am
Mercedes have had the best engine/power unit for a long time now. The degradation seems to be more about dropping down to everyone else's level from their peak performance. It's entirely plausible while others have broadly caught up with close to the maximum possible sustainably, Mercedes are ringing the last of their advantage out where possible (i.e. early in the lifespan of the engine).
Wrong Ferrari had the best engine in 2018 and 2019, apparently todays reliability issues emanates from what they had to do for 2020 to try and combat the 2019 Ferrari monster engine, at the time they didn't know the Ferrari engine would be declared illegal for 2020.

They took a lot of risks with reliability in order to find as much power as possible and the downside is what we see today, I'm guessing last year they were able to dial the engine back a bit because of their car advantage.
I'm not sure I'd qualify that period of Ferrari performance as them having the best PU per se. They found and exploited a loophole that gained them substantial performance, but as soon as it was closed they were straight back behind Mercedes (by a margin).

I do still think Mercedes have consistently had the best PU in terms of conventional performance and reliability for a long time, and only now they are being pushed into using the sort of theoretical headroom they've had all along, albeit at the expense of consistency and (potentially) reliability.
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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by pokerman »

wolfticket wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:59 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:17 pm
wolfticket wrote:
Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:38 am
Mercedes have had the best engine/power unit for a long time now. The degradation seems to be more about dropping down to everyone else's level from their peak performance. It's entirely plausible while others have broadly caught up with close to the maximum possible sustainably, Mercedes are ringing the last of their advantage out where possible (i.e. early in the lifespan of the engine).
Wrong Ferrari had the best engine in 2018 and 2019, apparently todays reliability issues emanates from what they had to do for 2020 to try and combat the 2019 Ferrari monster engine, at the time they didn't know the Ferrari engine would be declared illegal for 2020.

They took a lot of risks with reliability in order to find as much power as possible and the downside is what we see today, I'm guessing last year they were able to dial the engine back a bit because of their car advantage.
I'm not sure I'd qualify that period of Ferrari performance as them having the best PU per se. They found and exploited a loophole that gained them substantial performance, but as soon as it was closed they were straight back behind Mercedes (by a margin).

I do still think Mercedes have consistently had the best PU in terms of conventional performance and reliability for a long time, and only now they are being pushed into using the sort of theoretical headroom they've had all along, albeit at the expense of consistency and (potentially) reliability.
We may say the best legal engine but nevertheless they had to compete against a better engine in 2018 and 2019 which kind of disproved they could only win because of their engine, this year I would say that Honda have had a better engine, Mercedes have taken several harmful engine penalties because of poor reliability.

So obviously the best engine 2014-16, but in the last 5 years they've only had the best engine in 2 of those years.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by Johnson »

It's not BS. In previous years Mercedes had such an advantage that they would run the engine at 90% and still comfortably win.

This season they have had to run the engine at 99% at the start of its life and then slowly bring that down by a small percentage after each usage to ensure it stays reliable.

The ban on Engine modes also has not helped, previously they probably did 1 qualifying run at 99% and maybe 2-3 laps in the race at 97-99% and the rest at 90%. Now they have to pick one mode or the entire race.

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Covalent
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by Covalent »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:45 pm
It's not BS. In previous years Mercedes had such an advantage that they would run the engine at 90% and still comfortably win.

This season they have had to run the engine at 99% at the start of its life and then slowly bring that down by a small percentage after each usage to ensure it stays reliable.

The ban on Engine modes also has not helped, previously they probably did 1 qualifying run at 99% and maybe 2-3 laps in the race at 97-99% and the rest at 90%. Now they have to pick one mode or the entire race.
According to Wolff the quali mode ban helped them.
“I think we don’t lack performance on Saturdays. We had until now quite a margin. We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if F1 were to ban in-season certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.”

“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.”

Also read: Party Mode F1: Lewis Hamilton alleges ban on “party mode” is conspiracy to slow Mercedes

“But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race.”
https://thesportsrush.com/f1-news-party ... rformance/

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by Johnson »

Those comments from Wolff are in foresight, before it happened and speculating - what did he say after it actually happened?

Also, his comments are pretty obvious, yes if you do not strain the engine in qualifying then you will have a bit more power for the race - but that is true for ALL teams and ALL engines. He also made those comments during Mercedes domination of 2020 when they would beat everybody easily on both Saturday and Sunday it made no difference.

However, using common sense, it is clear that not being able to turn your engine down when you are very comfortable is going to affect the longevity of the engine.

In days gone by, for Brazil example. Hamilton would have stuck the engine to 100% for the first 20 laps, stormed to the lead and turned it down to 85% for the last 50 laps. Where as they probably had to set the engine to 97% for the entire race.

Lord Crc
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Re: Mercedes Engine Degredation

Post by Lord Crc »

IIRC Wolff said during an interview with Sky a few races ago they understood the issue, it was related to a batch (of materials IIRC) and that the result was engines degrade faster than expected.

I can think of several plausible ways this could happen, so why would it be BS?

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