The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

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Alienturnedhuman
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The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

One thing that has been quite remarkable this season has been the constant daylight that Verstappen and Hamilton put on the rest of the field, including their teammates. Sure, Bottas - and occasionally Perez if he qualifies the car in the right place - are within touching distance in the race, but we have routinely seen races shake out that after about 5/6 laps, these two drivers are out front regardless of where they qualify (most ridiculously seen in Brazil where Bottas had gone from pole, to being ordered to let Hamilton by after 5 racing speed laps)

Indeed, at one point we had Norris in 3rd place in WDC for quite a while, and even now the gap between Alonso in 10th and Bottas is smaller than the gap between Bottas and Hamilton.

Bottas has 58% of Verstappen's points (two places difference) whereas Norris has 75% of Bottas's points (two places difference)

However, one problem with this comparison is that the points delta of the higher places is bigger - you get a lot more advantage of first over second than fourth over fifth - and with Hamilton and Verstappen having the lion's share of the 1sts and 2nds, it does push their team mates closer to the competition, so I was curious how the championship would look if they weren't scoring.

While it's impossible to fully simulate a championship without their participation, the closest we can do is to just remove them from the championship. Say- hypothetically their engines blew up with 3 laps to go in every race.

Driver BOT PER NOR LEC SAI RIC
points no HAM/VER 278.5 282 221 217 218 149
2021 points 203 190 153 152 145.5 105
Difference 75.5 92 68 65 72.5 44
Wins84 1 1 2 1
Podiums 11 11 9 7 5 2
Now, what is interesting here is that Perez overtakes Bottas in the WDC. This is largely due to Bottas having 6 non scoring events vs Perez's 3 (in the adjusted results)

Bottas has seven extra wins - which give him 7 or 10 extra points each, whereas Perez makes smaller gains but more regularly.

It's not completely fair to compare this to the midfield teams (as the top teams don't have the buffer of a second car to push the mid field off of the podium, however they are substantially lower in points compared to their team mates achievement (Bottas total is 81% of Hamilton's points, Perez total is 80% of Verstappen's points) and this isn't affected by that.

There is no doubt that the Mercedes and Red Bull are the class of the field. But they only have that 'different formula' level performance when being wielded by their lead driver. Neither Perez nor Bottas are slow drivers, and they would also have been clear of the rest without Max and Lewis in their team, but their cars would not have been as all conquering as they have appeared this year and it only serves to highlight the level that both drivers have been performing at.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by IDFD »

As Martin Brundle continues to say at times it looks like these two are in a different formula. If you had two Bottas in the Merc or two Perez in the Red Bull you'd think the Merc or Red Bull had been dominant all season if Max or Lewis had remained in the car.

What I find really strange though if the complete different characteristics of Bottas and Perez. If you could mould them together you'd have a competitive driver. It's think (and that most would agree) it's clear Bottas is the better Saturday driver and Perez the better Sunday driver.

It's a shame there won't be a proper benchmark for Bottas next season but I'm looking forward to seeing if Perez can take the second season step forward in the new team we often see. Whilst we want the other top cars up there or would be a shame also if this rivalry gets cut short by one of them getting a poor car next season that isn't in contention.

It would be interesting to know how a season in the above scenario where Max and Lewis didn't exist. Would Bottas just take pole and drive away with it or would Perez superior Sunday skills make up for it.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by F1Tyrant »

Hamilton and Verstappen are clearly the best drivers in the sport and consistently driving at the ceilings of their car's performance. They both have been consistent benchmarks for the last 3 years at least.

It can sometimes be very difficult to tell when a car is flattering a driver or a driver is flattering a car. Even in retrospect.

If you put Sutil and Gutiérrez in the W05 in 2014, they would probably win both titles but neither would get anywhere near the ceiling of the car's performance.

Schumacher says he could have won the 1995 title in the 412 T2 but instead it won a solitary race and 3rd in the WCC in the hands of Alesi and Berger.

I think Vettel and Webber were flattered by the Red Bulls of the 2010s, with Vettel only getting close to the ceiling of the car in 2011 and the second half of 2013.

If Alonso and Hamilton had driven the F2007, it probably would have been considered one of the most dominant car's ever.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by DOLOMITE »

I agree this as been a highlight of the season .. "It's all about car!" Clearly it's not then... Fascinating to watch. Anyone got a link to a thread on the forum where we rated the current drivers ? Assuming Max and Lewis are 1 and 2 and Perez and Bottas are NOT 3 and 4 (Leclerc and Ricciardo?). I was wondering how different people think the WDC might look if the drivers in 3 and 4 were swapped in for Perez and Bottas.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Badgeronimous »

The difference is probably exaggerated by them both driving each other on, and full works support behind each driver.

Both are currently driving superbly.

Max has generally been brilliant all season, Lewis was down on his own lofty standards during the first 3rd of the season, but is performing near peak ATM.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by IDFD »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:41 am
I agree this as been a highlight of the season .. "It's all about car!" Clearly it's not then... Fascinating to watch. Anyone got a link to a thread on the forum where we rated the current drivers ? Assuming Max and Lewis are 1 and 2 and Perez and Bottas are NOT 3 and 4 (Leclerc and Ricciardo?). I was wondering how different people think the WDC might look if the drivers in 3 and 4 were swapped in for Perez and Bottas.
If one team had Leclerc then the other driver would probably have won the title as Leclerc/Max Leclerc/Lewis would have taken more points off of eachother instead of getting the maximum points available out of the car each weekend. Similar to the Alonso/Hamilton season in which they cost eachother the title.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by oz_karter »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:25 am
I think Vettel and Webber were flattered by the Red Bulls of the 2010s, with Vettel only getting close to the ceiling of the car in 2011 and the second half of 2013.
I don't really agree with that. If anything the blown diffuser flattered Vettel who mastered it better than anyone.

Webber showed good potential in much lesser cars earlier in his career, so it's not as if he was slow and the Red Bull was incredibly ahead of the field. Certainly not like the Mercedes Hybrid has been.

Webber wasn't consistent enough and didn't quite exploit the blown diffuser and tyres of that era like Vettel could, but I hardly think the Red Bull was in another league (except maybe later in 2013).

2012 had 7 different winners in the first 7 races... It was a very different era to what we've seen since 2014.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by F1Tyrant »

oz_karter wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:33 am
Webber showed good potential in much lesser cars earlier in his career, so it's not as if he was slow and the Red Bull was incredibly ahead of the field.
The sport left Webber behind at the end of the tyre war. He was always better on Michelins and arguably a top 5 driver in the early to mid 2000s. However, he didn't adapt to the new formula. I do think many drivers on the grid could have got EBD working for them a lot better than Webber did.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by tim3003 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:33 am


There is no doubt that the Mercedes and Red Bull are the class of the field. But they only have that 'different formula' level performance when being wielded by their lead driver. Neither Perez nor Bottas are slow drivers, and they would also have been clear of the rest without Max and Lewis in their team, but their cars would not have been as all conquering as they have appeared this year and it only serves to highlight the level that both drivers have been performing at.
Don't forget that without Lewis/Max Perez and Bottas would have had other teammates, who would have taken wins and points off them. By taking the two championship contenders out, havent you removed the points they scored for their teams and given them to the other teams? What would the points totals have been if Perez2 and Bottas2 each followed their namesakes home - or if they alternated in beating them?
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by JN23 »

On a similar note, is terms of the quality of the drivers and performances, is this the best quality title fight ever?

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:56 am
On a similar note, is terms of the quality of the drivers and performances, is this the best quality title fight ever?
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
2006 is by far the best analogue for the 2021 season. The fluctuating form of the cars, a Ferrari crashing in Q3 at Monaco, a debut winner at Hungary, a talented phenom putting it on pole but frustratingly missing out on a win and the legend on a charge at Interlagos.

Big difference is that Schumacher and Alonso never had a race ending crash with each other.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by JN23 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:56 am
On a similar note, is terms of the quality of the drivers and performances, is this the best quality title fight ever?
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
Ah yes good shout. The Prost vs Senna years were my other thoughts but I don’t know enough about those. Also a different dynamic when both were at the same team initially.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

tim3003 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:53 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:33 am


There is no doubt that the Mercedes and Red Bull are the class of the field. But they only have that 'different formula' level performance when being wielded by their lead driver. Neither Perez nor Bottas are slow drivers, and they would also have been clear of the rest without Max and Lewis in their team, but their cars would not have been as all conquering as they have appeared this year and it only serves to highlight the level that both drivers have been performing at.
Don't forget that without Lewis/Max Perez and Bottas would have had other teammates, who would have taken wins and points off them. By taking the two championship contenders out, havent you removed the points they scored for their teams and given them to the other teams? What would the points totals have been if Perez2 and Bottas2 each followed their namesakes home - or if they alternated in beating them?
See my penultimate paragraph - I didn't forget. That's why it's not possible to use this as a comparison to the midfield - however, it does represent the 'best case' for Perez and Bottas, as PerezB and BottasB would both potentially knock points off of their totals.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Tufty »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:12 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
2006 is by far the best analogue for the 2021 season. The fluctuating form of the cars, a Ferrari crashing in Q3 at Monaco, a debut winner at Hungary, a talented phenom putting it on pole but frustratingly missing out on a win and the legend on a charge at Interlagos.

Big difference is that Schumacher and Alonso never had a race ending crash with each other.
Crashing is a stretch :P but yes, the parallels are all there.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by DeepPyro69 »

The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm
The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D
Regarding your last sentence, remember also that Hamilton didn't start with a Toleman, a Jordan or a Minardi like the other drivers you mentioned, but in a front running McLaren. He surely had some stinkers though

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm
The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D
Hamilton's poorest car finished 3rd in the WCC and did have legitimate race winning pace for half a season. He's had some cars that aren't WDC contenders but "stinkers" is a bit of a stretch.

Not that he shouldn't be on this list.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by j man »

A think a key factor here is that Red Bull appear to operate as a one-car team in the way that Schumacher's Ferrari team and Alonso's Renault team did. They have an appointed lead driver who receives the bulk of the engineering focus, be it physical upgrades on the car, pitstop strategy, telemetry analysis / feedback, car setup optimisation etc. Unless Verstappen has truly transcendent talent I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap to a succession of team mates, two of whom have done a strong, consistent job at other teams.

I don't believe Mercedes have previously operated this way, but have been forced to change philosophy this season in response to Red Bull's competitiveness. With how closely matched the cars are, Mercedes cannot continue to split their resources evenly between two cars when Red Bull throw all their weight behind Verstappen. Again, I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap between Hamilton and Bottas that did not exist until this season.

That's not to say Hamilton and Verstappen don't make a difference, they are almost certainly the two best drivers on the grid. Just that I believe the team environments also play a major role in what we are seeing at the moment.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

j man wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:08 pm
A think a key factor here is that Red Bull appear to operate as a one-car team in the way that Schumacher's Ferrari team and Alonso's Renault team did. They have an appointed lead driver who receives the bulk of the engineering focus, be it physical upgrades on the car, pitstop strategy, telemetry analysis / feedback, car setup optimisation etc. Unless Verstappen has truly transcendent talent I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap to a succession of team mates, two of whom have done a strong, consistent job at other teams.

I don't believe Mercedes have previously operated this way, but have been forced to change philosophy this season in response to Red Bull's competitiveness. With how closely matched the cars are, Mercedes cannot continue to split their resources evenly between two cars when Red Bull throw all their weight behind Verstappen. Again, I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap between Hamilton and Bottas that did not exist until this season.

That's not to say Hamilton and Verstappen don't make a difference, they are almost certainly the two best drivers on the grid. Just that I believe the team environments also play a major role in what we are seeing at the moment.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by DeepPyro69 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm

Hamilton's poorest car finished 3rd in the WCC and did have legitimate race winning pace for half a season. He's had some cars that aren't WDC contenders but "stinkers" is a bit of a stretch.

Not that he shouldn't be on this list.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:58 pm
j man wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:08 pm
A think a key factor here is that Red Bull appear to operate as a one-car team in the way that Schumacher's Ferrari team and Alonso's Renault team did. They have an appointed lead driver who receives the bulk of the engineering focus, be it physical upgrades on the car, pitstop strategy, telemetry analysis / feedback, car setup optimisation etc. Unless Verstappen has truly transcendent talent I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap to a succession of team mates, two of whom have done a strong, consistent job at other teams.

I don't believe Mercedes have previously operated this way, but have been forced to change philosophy this season in response to Red Bull's competitiveness. With how closely matched the cars are, Mercedes cannot continue to split their resources evenly between two cars when Red Bull throw all their weight behind Verstappen. Again, I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap between Hamilton and Bottas that did not exist until this season.

That's not to say Hamilton and Verstappen don't make a difference, they are almost certainly the two best drivers on the grid. Just that I believe the team environments also play a major role in what we are seeing at the moment.
Hamilton learned after Malaysia 2014 not to ever show more of his hand than he needs to. This season he has needed more of it.
What happened in Malaysia? I can't remember

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

j man wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:08 pm
A think a key factor here is that Red Bull appear to operate as a one-car team in the way that Schumacher's Ferrari team and Alonso's Renault team did. They have an appointed lead driver who receives the bulk of the engineering focus, be it physical upgrades on the car, pitstop strategy, telemetry analysis / feedback, car setup optimisation etc. Unless Verstappen has truly transcendent talent I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap to a succession of team mates, two of whom have done a strong, consistent job at other teams.

I don't believe Mercedes have previously operated this way, but have been forced to change philosophy this season in response to Red Bull's competitiveness. With how closely matched the cars are, Mercedes cannot continue to split their resources evenly between two cars when Red Bull throw all their weight behind Verstappen. Again, I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap between Hamilton and Bottas that did not exist until this season.

That's not to say Hamilton and Verstappen don't make a difference, they are almost certainly the two best drivers on the grid. Just that I believe the team environments also play a major role in what we are seeing at the moment.
Yeah, I agree with this. Bottas recently mentioned that they now have different spec cars effectively.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Clarky »

Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:33 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:58 pm
j man wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:08 pm
A think a key factor here is that Red Bull appear to operate as a one-car team in the way that Schumacher's Ferrari team and Alonso's Renault team did. They have an appointed lead driver who receives the bulk of the engineering focus, be it physical upgrades on the car, pitstop strategy, telemetry analysis / feedback, car setup optimisation etc. Unless Verstappen has truly transcendent talent I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap to a succession of team mates, two of whom have done a strong, consistent job at other teams.

I don't believe Mercedes have previously operated this way, but have been forced to change philosophy this season in response to Red Bull's competitiveness. With how closely matched the cars are, Mercedes cannot continue to split their resources evenly between two cars when Red Bull throw all their weight behind Verstappen. Again, I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap between Hamilton and Bottas that did not exist until this season.

That's not to say Hamilton and Verstappen don't make a difference, they are almost certainly the two best drivers on the grid. Just that I believe the team environments also play a major role in what we are seeing at the moment.
Hamilton learned after Malaysia 2014 not to ever show more of his hand than he needs to. This season he has needed more of it.
What happened in Malaysia? I can't remember
Was this the race that Hamilton destroyed him (after his spark plug failure in Oz) and the team then issued Rosberg a 100+ page dossier of all of Hamilton's data for him to study?

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

Clarky wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:50 am
Siao7 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:33 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:58 pm
j man wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:08 pm
A think a key factor here is that Red Bull appear to operate as a one-car team in the way that Schumacher's Ferrari team and Alonso's Renault team did. They have an appointed lead driver who receives the bulk of the engineering focus, be it physical upgrades on the car, pitstop strategy, telemetry analysis / feedback, car setup optimisation etc. Unless Verstappen has truly transcendent talent I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap to a succession of team mates, two of whom have done a strong, consistent job at other teams.

I don't believe Mercedes have previously operated this way, but have been forced to change philosophy this season in response to Red Bull's competitiveness. With how closely matched the cars are, Mercedes cannot continue to split their resources evenly between two cars when Red Bull throw all their weight behind Verstappen. Again, I don't see how else we can rationally explain the massive gap between Hamilton and Bottas that did not exist until this season.

That's not to say Hamilton and Verstappen don't make a difference, they are almost certainly the two best drivers on the grid. Just that I believe the team environments also play a major role in what we are seeing at the moment.
Hamilton learned after Malaysia 2014 not to ever show more of his hand than he needs to. This season he has needed more of it.
What happened in Malaysia? I can't remember
Was this the race that Hamilton destroyed him (after his spark plug failure in Oz) and the team then issued Rosberg a 100+ page dossier of all of Hamilton's data for him to study?
Ah, good memory. Yes, you are right, I looked it up.

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by F1Tyrant »

Malaysia 2014 showed what the W05 was capable of in the hands of an elite driver vs a good driver. It was probably the most dominant performance of Hamilton's career with only his Italy 2015 drive coming close.

You have to hand it to Rosberg, not every driver could digest a dossier and improve to be within Hamilton's margin of error. I doubt many upper midfield drivers would have been able to elevate their performance as Rosberg did.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Exediron »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:32 am
Malaysia 2014 showed what the W05 was capable of in the hands of an elite driver vs a good driver. It was probably the most dominant performance of Hamilton's career with only his Italy 2015 drive coming close.

You have to hand it to Rosberg, not every driver could digest a dossier and improve to be within Hamilton's margin of error. I doubt many upper midfield drivers would have been able to elevate their performance as Rosberg did.
I think this is something Rosberg doesn't get enough credit for, honestly. It's not like other teammates don't get to look at the lead driver's data -- the ability to actually take that data on board and use it to massively close the gap is something Rosberg did better than possibly anyone.

The great drivers can do it; Hamilton learned a lot from Alonso's data in 2007. Most merely good drivers can't. I remember reading about how Barrichello just looked at Schumi's data and decided he couldn't do what Michael was doing.
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:20 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:32 am
Malaysia 2014 showed what the W05 was capable of in the hands of an elite driver vs a good driver. It was probably the most dominant performance of Hamilton's career with only his Italy 2015 drive coming close.

You have to hand it to Rosberg, not every driver could digest a dossier and improve to be within Hamilton's margin of error. I doubt many upper midfield drivers would have been able to elevate their performance as Rosberg did.
I think this is something Rosberg doesn't get enough credit for, honestly. It's not like other teammates don't get to look at the lead driver's data -- the ability to actually take that data on board and use it to massively close the gap is something Rosberg did better than possibly anyone.

The great drivers can do it; Hamilton learned a lot from Alonso's data in 2007. Most merely good drivers can't. I remember reading about how Barrichello just looked at Schumi's data and decided he couldn't do what Michael was doing.
I guess he learned from the best!

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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm
The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D
Hamilton's poorest car finished 3rd in the WCC and did have legitimate race winning pace for half a season. He's had some cars that aren't WDC contenders but "stinkers" is a bit of a stretch.

Not that he shouldn't be on this list.
Hamiltons 2009 car in the first half was worst than anything Schumacher drove 1991-2006. Hamilton had a 5-6 race period of fighting for P12-P15 without any bad luck. Schumacher never drove a car that bad, including the Mercedes years.

People call the 1996 Ferrari a dog, it came 2nd in the WCC, won 3 races and even Irvine stuck it P3 on the grid in his debut and got the podium ahead of everybody else except Williams. Irvine did finish 10th in the WDC but due to 11 DNFs in 16 races.

Even Schumachers 2005 car still had 5 podiums in the first 9 races (3 of which were Rubens). It was not a race winner but it was a solid points scorer.

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Johnson
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Johnson »

DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:05 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm

Hamilton's poorest car finished 3rd in the WCC and did have legitimate race winning pace for half a season. He's had some cars that aren't WDC contenders but "stinkers" is a bit of a stretch.

Not that he shouldn't be on this list.
"[Hamilton] was able to win with a dominant car, with a good car like 2010 or 2012, or with bad cars like 2009 and 2011. Not all the champions can say that." - Alonso

If Alonso says a car is bad, it’s bad

D
The 2011 Mclaren was not a bad car, it was the best car at about 5-6 races that season. Hamilton had glimpses of excellence but it was his weakest season in terms of incidents and pace too. The first affected the later somewhat. He has said he had an "illness" that year that will be disclosed "when the book comes out" that will put that season into context. But Button, in the second half the year performed very well (because the car was so good).

Mclaren have also said they feel they had a slightly the better car come the end of the season.

mikeyg123
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:18 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm
The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D
Hamilton's poorest car finished 3rd in the WCC and did have legitimate race winning pace for half a season. He's had some cars that aren't WDC contenders but "stinkers" is a bit of a stretch.

Not that he shouldn't be on this list.
Hamiltons 2009 car in the first half was worst than anything Schumacher drove 1991-2006. Hamilton had a 5-6 race period of fighting for P12-P15 without any bad luck. Schumacher never drove a car that bad, including the Mercedes years.

People call the 1996 Ferrari a dog, it came 2nd in the WCC, won 3 races and even Irvine stuck it P3 on the grid in his debut and got the podium ahead of everybody else except Williams. Irvine did finish 10th in the WDC but due to 11 DNFs in 16 races.

Even Schumachers 2005 car still had 5 podiums in the first 9 races (3 of which were Rubens). It was not a race winner but it was a solid points scorer.
Sure, but Hamilton didn't win in it until it was much improved. Although I thought he did drive really well in the first few races of the season.

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DFWdude
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by DFWdude »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:23 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:56 am
On a similar note, is terms of the quality of the drivers and performances, is this the best quality title fight ever?
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
Ah yes good shout. The Prost vs Senna years were my other thoughts but I don’t know enough about those. Also a different dynamic when both were at the same team initially.
I watched the Prost v. Senna years firsthand. IMO, the title fight we have now is a very good match (if not identical) for what occurred 1989-1990 with Prost-Senna.

Prost-Hamilton were/are consumately experienced drivers in excellent cars, well studied in the art of patience in overtaking. Their driving craft was at a peak, as you would expect of a 4-time and 7-time WDC.

Senna-Verstappen (at the same time in their careers relative to Prost-Hamilton) were/are excellent drivers in excellent cars, but less cultured (to say the least) in overtaking. For these two, there is little patience... actually an arrogant selfishness in demanding a corner be conceded to them.

For example, VER's overtake of HAM at Imola this year, the ill-conceived crash with HAM at Monza, and the turn 4 incident in Interlagos are ALL reminiscent of Senna's intentional crash with Prost in Japan in 1990. It's my corner (even if it isn't)... give it to me or else.

I am reminded of the incident in Brazil 2018, when Verstappen had no patience at all for an unlapping Ocon (turn 1-2). Verstappen was P1 and leading comfortably, yet failed to recognize the obvious value in letting a backmarker unlap himself, with no consequence to his lead. Instead, VER's insistence on "me before you" lead to a needless shunt that relegated VER to 2nd place behind HAM. Plus, the post race physical assault by VER on OCO reminded me of the frequent tantrums exhibited by Senna through his career, culminating in Suzuka, 1990.

I hope this immature attitude does not determine the outcome of this year's championship. HAM's best defense is to get ahead and pull away, putting distance between he and VER. Else there will likely be another crash.

Meanwhile, I agree that Hamilton and Verstappen are head and shoulders above the rest. But one of them has patience, the other does not.

mikeyg123
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

DFWdude wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:27 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:23 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:56 am
On a similar note, is terms of the quality of the drivers and performances, is this the best quality title fight ever?
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
Ah yes good shout. The Prost vs Senna years were my other thoughts but I don’t know enough about those. Also a different dynamic when both were at the same team initially.
I watched the Prost v. Senna years firsthand. IMO, the title fight we have now is a very good match (if not identical) for what occurred 1989-1990 with Prost-Senna.

Prost-Hamilton were/are consumately experienced drivers in excellent cars, well studied in the art of patience in overtaking. Their driving craft was at a peak, as you would expect of a 4-time and 7-time WDC.

Senna-Verstappen (at the same time in their careers relative to Prost-Hamilton) were/are excellent drivers in excellent cars, but less cultured (to say the least) in overtaking. For these two, there is little patience... actually an arrogant selfishness in demanding a corner be conceded to them.

For example, VER's overtake of HAM at Imola this year, the ill-conceived crash with HAM at Monza, and the turn 4 incident in Interlagos are ALL reminiscent of Senna's intentional crash with Prost in Japan in 1990. It's my corner (even if it isn't)... give it to me or else.

I am reminded of the incident in Brazil 2018, when Verstappen had no patience at all for an unlapping Ocon (turn 1-2). Verstappen was P1 and leading comfortably, yet failed to recognize the obvious value in letting a backmarker unlap himself, with no consequence to his lead. Instead, VER's insistence on "me before you" lead to a needless shunt that relegated VER to 2nd place behind HAM. Plus, the post race physical assault by VER on OCO reminded me of the frequent tantrums exhibited by Senna through his career, culminating in Suzuka, 1990.

I hope this immature attitude does not determine the outcome of this year's championship. HAM's best defense is to get ahead and pull away, putting distance between he and VER. Else there will likely be another crash.

Meanwhile, I agree that Hamilton and Verstappen are head and shoulders above the rest. But one of them has patience, the other does not.
You seem to have left a very. very important detail out of this analysis...

You are casting Hamilton in the Prost role here but it was in fact Prost who started the cascade of drivers winning the WDC by crashing out rivals in 1989. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself ;)

pokerman
Posts: 38434
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:23 am
Johnson wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:18 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:34 pm
DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm
The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D
Hamilton's poorest car finished 3rd in the WCC and did have legitimate race winning pace for half a season. He's had some cars that aren't WDC contenders but "stinkers" is a bit of a stretch.

Not that he shouldn't be on this list.
Hamiltons 2009 car in the first half was worst than anything Schumacher drove 1991-2006. Hamilton had a 5-6 race period of fighting for P12-P15 without any bad luck. Schumacher never drove a car that bad, including the Mercedes years.

People call the 1996 Ferrari a dog, it came 2nd in the WCC, won 3 races and even Irvine stuck it P3 on the grid in his debut and got the podium ahead of everybody else except Williams. Irvine did finish 10th in the WDC but due to 11 DNFs in 16 races.

Even Schumachers 2005 car still had 5 podiums in the first 9 races (3 of which were Rubens). It was not a race winner but it was a solid points scorer.
Sure, but Hamilton didn't win in it until it was much improved. Although I thought he did drive really well in the first few races of the season.
He should have had a podium in the first race, I think that was the first chink in his relationship with McLaren which had been really strong up to that point, Whitmarsh slowly derailed the team.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 102 (1st)
Pole Positions: 102 (1st)
Podiums: 180 (1st)


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pokerman
Posts: 38434
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:56 pm
DFWdude wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:27 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:23 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:56 am
On a similar note, is terms of the quality of the drivers and performances, is this the best quality title fight ever?
Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
Ah yes good shout. The Prost vs Senna years were my other thoughts but I don’t know enough about those. Also a different dynamic when both were at the same team initially.
I watched the Prost v. Senna years firsthand. IMO, the title fight we have now is a very good match (if not identical) for what occurred 1989-1990 with Prost-Senna.

Prost-Hamilton were/are consumately experienced drivers in excellent cars, well studied in the art of patience in overtaking. Their driving craft was at a peak, as you would expect of a 4-time and 7-time WDC.

Senna-Verstappen (at the same time in their careers relative to Prost-Hamilton) were/are excellent drivers in excellent cars, but less cultured (to say the least) in overtaking. For these two, there is little patience... actually an arrogant selfishness in demanding a corner be conceded to them.

For example, VER's overtake of HAM at Imola this year, the ill-conceived crash with HAM at Monza, and the turn 4 incident in Interlagos are ALL reminiscent of Senna's intentional crash with Prost in Japan in 1990. It's my corner (even if it isn't)... give it to me or else.

I am reminded of the incident in Brazil 2018, when Verstappen had no patience at all for an unlapping Ocon (turn 1-2). Verstappen was P1 and leading comfortably, yet failed to recognize the obvious value in letting a backmarker unlap himself, with no consequence to his lead. Instead, VER's insistence on "me before you" lead to a needless shunt that relegated VER to 2nd place behind HAM. Plus, the post race physical assault by VER on OCO reminded me of the frequent tantrums exhibited by Senna through his career, culminating in Suzuka, 1990.

I hope this immature attitude does not determine the outcome of this year's championship. HAM's best defense is to get ahead and pull away, putting distance between he and VER. Else there will likely be another crash.

Meanwhile, I agree that Hamilton and Verstappen are head and shoulders above the rest. But one of them has patience, the other does not.
You seem to have left a very. very important detail out of this analysis...

You are casting Hamilton in the Prost role here but it was in fact Prost who started the cascade of drivers winning the WDC by crashing out rivals in 1989. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself ;)
Well first he needs to be leading the title chase, this late in the season that's looking unlikely.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 102 (1st)
Pole Positions: 102 (1st)
Podiums: 180 (1st)


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2014: Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 20172
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:06 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:56 pm
DFWdude wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:27 pm
JN23 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:23 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:05 pm


Alonso V Schumacher in 2006 was very intense.
Ah yes good shout. The Prost vs Senna years were my other thoughts but I don’t know enough about those. Also a different dynamic when both were at the same team initially.
I watched the Prost v. Senna years firsthand. IMO, the title fight we have now is a very good match (if not identical) for what occurred 1989-1990 with Prost-Senna.

Prost-Hamilton were/are consumately experienced drivers in excellent cars, well studied in the art of patience in overtaking. Their driving craft was at a peak, as you would expect of a 4-time and 7-time WDC.

Senna-Verstappen (at the same time in their careers relative to Prost-Hamilton) were/are excellent drivers in excellent cars, but less cultured (to say the least) in overtaking. For these two, there is little patience... actually an arrogant selfishness in demanding a corner be conceded to them.

For example, VER's overtake of HAM at Imola this year, the ill-conceived crash with HAM at Monza, and the turn 4 incident in Interlagos are ALL reminiscent of Senna's intentional crash with Prost in Japan in 1990. It's my corner (even if it isn't)... give it to me or else.

I am reminded of the incident in Brazil 2018, when Verstappen had no patience at all for an unlapping Ocon (turn 1-2). Verstappen was P1 and leading comfortably, yet failed to recognize the obvious value in letting a backmarker unlap himself, with no consequence to his lead. Instead, VER's insistence on "me before you" lead to a needless shunt that relegated VER to 2nd place behind HAM. Plus, the post race physical assault by VER on OCO reminded me of the frequent tantrums exhibited by Senna through his career, culminating in Suzuka, 1990.

I hope this immature attitude does not determine the outcome of this year's championship. HAM's best defense is to get ahead and pull away, putting distance between he and VER. Else there will likely be another crash.

Meanwhile, I agree that Hamilton and Verstappen are head and shoulders above the rest. But one of them has patience, the other does not.
You seem to have left a very. very important detail out of this analysis...

You are casting Hamilton in the Prost role here but it was in fact Prost who started the cascade of drivers winning the WDC by crashing out rivals in 1989. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself ;)
Well first he needs to be leading the title chase, this late in the season that's looking unlikely.
If he wins in SA and finds himself leading AD it would be better for him (strictly from a winning the title point of view) to crash into Verstappen than let him pass. If he lets him pass then he loses. If he causes the crash he might be able to put Verstappen out whilst continuing.

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Schermerhorn
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by Schermerhorn »

Hamilton and Verstappen are truly elite...or they have a car advantage over their team mates.

I lean towards them being simply better though. They're just on another level to Perez and Bottas.

I expected Vettel to do the same to Stroll this year as well tbh but there isn't that much between them for me to consider Vettel as elite anymore.

Fernando I can understand, he is old(er) and he was away for 2 seasons so there is rustiness to consider. I expect a bigger gap between him and Ocon next year to be honest.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

schumilegend
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by schumilegend »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:25 am
Hamilton and Verstappen are clearly the best drivers in the sport and consistently driving at the ceilings of their car's performance. They both have been consistent benchmarks for the last 3 years at least.

It can sometimes be very difficult to tell when a car is flattering a driver or a driver is flattering a car. Even in retrospect.

If you put Sutil and Gutiérrez in the W05 in 2014, they would probably win both titles but neither would get anywhere near the ceiling of the car's performance.

Schumacher says he could have won the 1995 title in the 412 T2 but instead it won a solitary race and 3rd in the WCC in the hands of Alesi and Berger.

I think Vettel and Webber were flattered by the Red Bulls of the 2010s, with Vettel only getting close to the ceiling of the car in 2011 and the second half of 2013.

If Alonso and Hamilton had driven the F2007, it probably would have been considered one of the most dominant car's ever.
You should listen to the Alonso podcast were he says the 2007 Mcl was one of the best cars he had in his career .. up there with 2005 and 2006

JN23
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by JN23 »

schumilegend wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:00 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:25 am
Hamilton and Verstappen are clearly the best drivers in the sport and consistently driving at the ceilings of their car's performance. They both have been consistent benchmarks for the last 3 years at least.

It can sometimes be very difficult to tell when a car is flattering a driver or a driver is flattering a car. Even in retrospect.

If you put Sutil and Gutiérrez in the W05 in 2014, they would probably win both titles but neither would get anywhere near the ceiling of the car's performance.

Schumacher says he could have won the 1995 title in the 412 T2 but instead it won a solitary race and 3rd in the WCC in the hands of Alesi and Berger.

I think Vettel and Webber were flattered by the Red Bulls of the 2010s, with Vettel only getting close to the ceiling of the car in 2011 and the second half of 2013.

If Alonso and Hamilton had driven the F2007, it probably would have been considered one of the most dominant car's ever.
You should listen to the Alonso podcast were he says the 2007 Mcl was one of the best cars he had in his career .. up there with 2005 and 2006
That doesn’t mean the Ferrari wasn’t better though.

KingVoid
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Re: The difference Hamilton and Verstappen make

Post by KingVoid »

DeepPyro69 wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:09 pm
The difference between a very good driver and a great driver is very small. The list of recent greats I think is small, but when coupled with a good car are near unstoppable, as we’ve see this season.

Senna
Schumacher
Alonso
Hamilton

I have not added Vettel or Verstappen (yet) because I feel the other component of a true great is the ability to drive around an issue with the car to win a race (be it a fundamental flaw or a one off issue such as being stuck in 5th and still winning) Vettel can’t without a blown diffuser and Verstappen hasn’t yet been a dog of a car to show this yet. (Alonso getting a podium in that Alpine another example)

Remember Hamilton has won a race in every season he’s been in and a couple of those Mclarens (2009/2011) were stinkers.

D
2011 McLaren was a stinker? A car in which Button finished second in the championship with 270 points and 3 race wins?

The 2011 McLaren is literally better than any car Verstappen has ever driven excluding the RB16B. That is a shocking take.

As for 2009, that car was inferior only to Red Bull in the second half of the season.

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