Who will win the Championships?

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Who will win the WDC/WCC?

Lewis Hamilton and Mercedes
8
21%
Lewis Hamilton and Red Bull
1
3%
Max Verstappen and Mercedes
13
34%
Max Verstappen and Red Bull
16
42%
Other (now mathematically impossible)
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 38

KingVoid
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by KingVoid »

I have to say, with the current rate of dominance Mercedes has enjoyed since Silverstone, this whole debate about Spa seems redundant because Mercedes is simply much faster.

I could see Lewis winning every race now and doing a Vettel 2013. This speed advantage is stupendous, with their adjustable rear ride height.

pokerman
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

Fiki wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:44 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:34 am



More likely rescheduled than cancelled.

It's a misnomer to say you can't know what the race result would have been with one breath and then state that Verstappen was lucky with the next.

You've already stated you don't know.
He was lucky then that the race wasn't rescheduled but in F1 that tends not to happen anyway, I don't know what might have happened where your argument seems to be little more than Max would have won anyway.
Yes. I think Verstappen, on a wet setup, had a more than 50% chance of outscoring Hamilton on a dry setup by more than 3.5 points had the race gone ahead.

That's what I think. And therefore I come to the conclusion that Verstappen wasn't lucky.

You on the other hand are making two statements

1. Verstappen was lucky

2. Had the race gone ahead there is no way of knowing who would have finished ahead of who.

These statements are contradictory. If you have no way of knowing who would have achieved the better result you have know way of knowing if Verstappen was lucky. So pick one.
First of all we need to be deciding exactly what set up Max had, your fellow Max fan gives Max 100% credit for pole position by putting him on a similar set up to Hamilton.

Max was lucky because of the shenanigans involved in getting a result declared in what was a none race, I guarantee the farce that took place will never be allowed to happen again, it clearly wasn't done for sporting reasons.
In a way Max was indeed lucky that Saturday's effort was rewarded with points. But how likely was a postponement going to be in a season that is already far too crowded? The high number of races isn't because of sporting considerations either. And let's not forget that rescheduling a race in times of Covid-19 isn't a straightforward proposition in the first place.
As for the farcical nature of declaring a result based on qualifying, at least that is based on a competitive exercise, i.e. qualifying. And in that exercise, Verstappen came out on top.

Max was also a bit lucky that he was able to nibble a few of the points back that Hamilton's accident in Silverstone cost him. But of course, Hamilton winning there after causing it was not lucky.
Why postponement and not cancellation, we seem just be wanting a reason for justifying the none race win, what happened at Silverstone is immaterial to what's being debated here and you've actually said that Max was lucky anyway.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:10 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:44 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:34 am



More likely rescheduled than cancelled.

It's a misnomer to say you can't know what the race result would have been with one breath and then state that Verstappen was lucky with the next.

You've already stated you don't know.
He was lucky then that the race wasn't rescheduled but in F1 that tends not to happen anyway, I don't know what might have happened where your argument seems to be little more than Max would have won anyway.
Yes. I think Verstappen, on a wet setup, had a more than 50% chance of outscoring Hamilton on a dry setup by more than 3.5 points had the race gone ahead.

That's what I think. And therefore I come to the conclusion that Verstappen wasn't lucky.

You on the other hand are making two statements

1. Verstappen was lucky

2. Had the race gone ahead there is no way of knowing who would have finished ahead of who.

These statements are contradictory. If you have no way of knowing who would have achieved the better result you have know way of knowing if Verstappen was lucky. So pick one.
First of all we need to be deciding exactly what set up Max had, your fellow Max fan gives Max 100% credit for pole position by putting him on a similar set up to Hamilton.

Max was lucky because of the shenanigans involved in getting a result declared in what was a none race, I guarantee the farce that took place will never be allowed to happen again, it clearly wasn't done for sporting reasons.
I'm not a Max fan. If I'm a fan of any one particular driver it would be Perez.

That mitigated some of the bad luck of a race he could do well in not going ahead.
You can't really take that stance after your OTT reaction to Leclerc's crash in Monaco qualifying which secured pole position for him, for which you later apologised for, you can't show that level of emotion for Max and then claim to be indifferent.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:10 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:44 am

He was lucky then that the race wasn't rescheduled but in F1 that tends not to happen anyway, I don't know what might have happened where your argument seems to be little more than Max would have won anyway.
Yes. I think Verstappen, on a wet setup, had a more than 50% chance of outscoring Hamilton on a dry setup by more than 3.5 points had the race gone ahead.

That's what I think. And therefore I come to the conclusion that Verstappen wasn't lucky.

You on the other hand are making two statements

1. Verstappen was lucky

2. Had the race gone ahead there is no way of knowing who would have finished ahead of who.

These statements are contradictory. If you have no way of knowing who would have achieved the better result you have know way of knowing if Verstappen was lucky. So pick one.
First of all we need to be deciding exactly what set up Max had, your fellow Max fan gives Max 100% credit for pole position by putting him on a similar set up to Hamilton.

Max was lucky because of the shenanigans involved in getting a result declared in what was a none race, I guarantee the farce that took place will never be allowed to happen again, it clearly wasn't done for sporting reasons.
I'm not a Max fan. If I'm a fan of any one particular driver it would be Perez.

That mitigated some of the bad luck of a race he could do well in not going ahead.
You can't really take that stance after your OTT reaction to Leclerc's crash in Monaco qualifying which secured pole position for him, for which you later apologised for, you can't show that level of emotion for Max and then claim to be indifferent.
Lol, you can't tell me I'm a Max fan just because you want me to be.

I was especially annoyed at Monaco because it ruined a quali session that was building into a dramatic finale.

The "emotion" wasn't for Max. I like good F1. I'd actually rather Leclerc won a race than Verstappen because it would likely be a better race. The Hungarian GP this year was possibly my favourite of the hybrid era even though Verstappen was wiped out at turn 1.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:35 pm
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:54 am
If you are fine with what happened in Spa because it suited "your" driver, well, that's you. I as a fan of racing thought it was one of the biggest farce ever.
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:37 am
Amazing that you would support that contrived result, when support of a driver comes before a true sporting event when there actually was no event.
It doesn't matter if the "race" was a farce, and the end of the day the points were handed out on a meritocracy basis. As the conditions did not allow for green flag running on Sunday, the driver who qualified fastest in the wet on Saturday received the most points for the weekend.

Unlike a race like Singapore 2008 which was an actual fixed event and helped Hamilton win the title. Even if Hamilton's team themselves were not the ones to fix the race, they still benefited massively from the fixing.

Singapore should have just been null and voided tbh.
The 2 lap farce was run for financial reasons and guess what don't be surprised such procedure will never happen again.

What actually happened at Singapore 2008 wasn't known until the year after I believe, certainly well after the end of the season, the idea the race should have been null and voided well after all the trinkets had been given out is somewhat ridiculous to say, it never happens.

This being the basis to call Hamilton's title tainted is also ridiculous given he or his team had no part to play in the shenanigans, a desperate riposte perhaps to what I said about Max and his 3 teammates.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:46 pm
JN23 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:38 pm
Isn’t it impossible to change results after the end of a season?
Yep

However, if Singapore 2008 had come out sooner (say a few weeks later), the race would have been null-and-void and Massa wins the championship.

Amazing isn't it. Hamilton fans have zero ground to stand on when complaining about a "farce" of a championship.
There's a difference between being actually intrinsically involved in something and who's calling this year's title race a farce?

Also if you want to review 2008 maybe you should look at some of the questionable penalties given against Hamilton which includes a gifted win for Massa at Spa.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:05 pm
I have to say, with the current rate of dominance Mercedes has enjoyed since Silverstone, this whole debate about Spa seems redundant because Mercedes is simply much faster.

I could see Lewis winning every race now and doing a Vettel 2013. This speed advantage is stupendous, with their adjustable rear ride height.
To a point it could still be track dependent and then there is the reliability issues for Mercedes, it's still up in the air at this time.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:37 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:10 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:07 pm


Yes. I think Verstappen, on a wet setup, had a more than 50% chance of outscoring Hamilton on a dry setup by more than 3.5 points had the race gone ahead.

That's what I think. And therefore I come to the conclusion that Verstappen wasn't lucky.

You on the other hand are making two statements

1. Verstappen was lucky

2. Had the race gone ahead there is no way of knowing who would have finished ahead of who.

These statements are contradictory. If you have no way of knowing who would have achieved the better result you have know way of knowing if Verstappen was lucky. So pick one.
First of all we need to be deciding exactly what set up Max had, your fellow Max fan gives Max 100% credit for pole position by putting him on a similar set up to Hamilton.

Max was lucky because of the shenanigans involved in getting a result declared in what was a none race, I guarantee the farce that took place will never be allowed to happen again, it clearly wasn't done for sporting reasons.
I'm not a Max fan. If I'm a fan of any one particular driver it would be Perez.

That mitigated some of the bad luck of a race he could do well in not going ahead.
You can't really take that stance after your OTT reaction to Leclerc's crash in Monaco qualifying which secured pole position for him, for which you later apologised for, you can't show that level of emotion for Max and then claim to be indifferent.
Lol, you can't tell me I'm a Max fan just because you want me to be.

I was especially annoyed at Monaco because it ruined a quali session that was building into a dramatic finale.

The "emotion" wasn't for Max. I like good F1. I'd actually rather Leclerc won a race than Verstappen because it would likely be a better race. The Hungarian GP this year was possibly my favourite of the hybrid era even though Verstappen was wiped out at turn 1.
Generally speaking you're a well balanced poster, I guess most would say better balanced than me, however when it relates to Max just too many posts I would say would question that.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:37 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:10 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:53 pm

First of all we need to be deciding exactly what set up Max had, your fellow Max fan gives Max 100% credit for pole position by putting him on a similar set up to Hamilton.

Max was lucky because of the shenanigans involved in getting a result declared in what was a none race, I guarantee the farce that took place will never be allowed to happen again, it clearly wasn't done for sporting reasons.
I'm not a Max fan. If I'm a fan of any one particular driver it would be Perez.

That mitigated some of the bad luck of a race he could do well in not going ahead.
You can't really take that stance after your OTT reaction to Leclerc's crash in Monaco qualifying which secured pole position for him, for which you later apologised for, you can't show that level of emotion for Max and then claim to be indifferent.
Lol, you can't tell me I'm a Max fan just because you want me to be.

I was especially annoyed at Monaco because it ruined a quali session that was building into a dramatic finale.

The "emotion" wasn't for Max. I like good F1. I'd actually rather Leclerc won a race than Verstappen because it would likely be a better race. The Hungarian GP this year was possibly my favourite of the hybrid era even though Verstappen was wiped out at turn 1.
Generally speaking you're a well balanced poster, I guess most would say better balanced than me, however when it relates to Max just too many posts I would say would question that.
I disagree. Even in recent times I was very strongly critical of what happened at Spa. On this forum I've already defended drivers I think get to much criticism or don't get the credit they deserve. That meant often arguing very much for Hamilton between sort of 2012-18 as I felt there were a lot of posters who ONLY posted to criticise Hamilton and that his talent was under appreciated.

I don't think that's the case anymore and I find Verstappen is under appreciated and gets criticised more than he deserves, so naturally more of my posts appear pro Verstappen because there are more posts about Verstappen I disagree with.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by KingVoid »

Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Lets wait for qualifying.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Jezza13 »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Nooooo.

I think your talking his situation down to be able to talk him up.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Yeboah24 »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
You see how practise means nothing. Race pace doesnt look hugely different

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by IDFD »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Haha. If Max wins the title in a car that's been the best or close to the best it's the greatest of all time. Bloody hell.

Your hyperbole is starting to be embarrassing.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by KingVoid »

Yeboah24 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:55 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
You see how practise means nothing. Race pace doesnt look hugely different
Mercedes is literally the only team who didn’t beat their FP1 time in FP2. If that doesn’t indicate that they’ve turned the engine down, I don’t know what does.

I expect Lewis to be minimum 4 tenths clear of Max tomorrow.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
If Verstappen wins the championship, it will go down as a significant title for a number of reasons. He will have beaten the most dominant driver of all time in equal cars, and it will be the first of what are expected to be multiple titles for himself. It will also be the first time in the turbo-hybrid era that Mercedes has been beaten.

However, I don't really agree with your second conclusion. Luck has often been against Max, but the quality of the car not so much. He has enjoyed a car advantage at times this season, and a disadvantage at others -- but by no means would his title be at the top of the list of drivers winning a WDC in an inferior machine.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Exediron wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:51 am
However, I don't really agree with your second conclusion. Luck has often been against Max, but the quality of the car not so much. He has enjoyed a car advantage at times this season, and a disadvantage at others -- but by no means would his title be at the top of the list of drivers winning a WDC in an inferior machine.
There are a large proportion of Verstappen supporters who think Perez has definitively proven that the Red Bull is rather inferior to Mercedes (and has been nearly all season). Despite being the most reliable Red Bull car ever which would bring it into championship contention anyway in most seasons.

Verstappen meanwhile has proven that he's probably the GOAT for blessing the RB16B with his midas touch and dragging it against all the odds into a WDC battle with a dominant Mercedes.

I strongly disagree and think the best driver would have won in either car (for now, unless the run in tips heavily for Mercedes). Verstappen deserves very high praise for putting together a metronomic campaign, although, his wheel to wheel philosophy of only yielding when comprehensively out-gunned has cost him points which he might rue losing come the close.

If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, Verstappen's lack of caution and assumption that Hamilton had backed off at Copse will have cost him the title.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, Verstappen's lack of caution and assumption that Hamilton had backed off at Copse will have cost him the title.
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, getting taken out by his championship rival in a poorly executed move, despite leaving more than enough space, will have cost him the title.

Just thought I'd reword that in a way that blames the person at fault for the incident, rather than the victim. ;)

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:35 am
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, getting taken out by his championship rival in a poorly executed move, despite leaving more than enough space, will have cost him the title.
Hamilton was clearly at fault for the incident in my mind but Verstappen didn't help himself by assuming the move was done and returning to the racing line.

Had Verstappen been a bit more circumspect and had his risk management calibrated to a championship overview rather than his current race-by-race paradigm he might have lived to fight another day. Hamilton had backed out multiple times after ambitious moves from Verstappen.

It's clear to me that Silverstone was the one race Verstappen wanted to win second to Zandvoort. Verstappen was determined to stick it to Hamilton and wasn't going to yield. He desperately wanted to win the race to Maggots and Becketts and thought he had it done, not realising Hamilton was understeering.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Rockie »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 10:52 pm
Rockie wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 5:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Oct 20, 2021 6:39 am
Rockie wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Oct 19, 2021 12:19 pm


Had the race been run what do you imagine would have been the most likely result? Remembering that Hamilton was on the dryer setup.
The Mercedes would have come alive in the race like it has done since the end of the summer break.
On a wet track with a dry setup? I'd say Mercedes has been stronger in quali that it has been in races recently. Why do you think different?
Because you can see lady luck helping Max.

If Italy, Russia and Turkey had operated as normal he'd probably be well behind Hamilton now.
And if Silverstone had been a double DNF (like that collision would have been 9 times out of 10) he'd still be well ahead -- especially when you add in getting taken out at the start in Hungary, where he certainly lost more points to Hamilton than he was otherwise likely to do.

Luck doesn't exist in a vacuum. Verstappen has had good luck, but I'm unconvinced it balances out the bad.
No one said luck exists in a vacuum just explaining the reasoning behind the statement made.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by j man »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:04 am
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, Verstappen's lack of caution and assumption that Hamilton had backed off at Copse will have cost him the title.
This I agree with. Risk management is an important skill in putting together a title challenge and it's the only area where Verstappen is falling short at the moment. It comes with experience and maturity though, Hamilton himself was little better when he was Verstappen's age.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

j man wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 9:58 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:04 am
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, Verstappen's lack of caution and assumption that Hamilton had backed off at Copse will have cost him the title.
This I agree with. Risk management is an important skill in putting together a title challenge and it's the only area where Verstappen is falling short at the moment. It comes with experience and maturity though, Hamilton himself was little better when he was Verstappen's age.
Verstappen has an insane natural talent. I am still unconvinced about his intelligence, though, and whether (even more) experience and age will help here.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:26 pm
Fiki wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:09 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:53 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:07 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:44 am

He was lucky then that the race wasn't rescheduled but in F1 that tends not to happen anyway, I don't know what might have happened where your argument seems to be little more than Max would have won anyway.
Yes. I think Verstappen, on a wet setup, had a more than 50% chance of outscoring Hamilton on a dry setup by more than 3.5 points had the race gone ahead.

That's what I think. And therefore I come to the conclusion that Verstappen wasn't lucky.

You on the other hand are making two statements

1. Verstappen was lucky

2. Had the race gone ahead there is no way of knowing who would have finished ahead of who.

These statements are contradictory. If you have no way of knowing who would have achieved the better result you have know way of knowing if Verstappen was lucky. So pick one.
First of all we need to be deciding exactly what set up Max had, your fellow Max fan gives Max 100% credit for pole position by putting him on a similar set up to Hamilton.

Max was lucky because of the shenanigans involved in getting a result declared in what was a none race, I guarantee the farce that took place will never be allowed to happen again, it clearly wasn't done for sporting reasons.
In a way Max was indeed lucky that Saturday's effort was rewarded with points. But how likely was a postponement going to be in a season that is already far too crowded? The high number of races isn't because of sporting considerations either. And let's not forget that rescheduling a race in times of Covid-19 isn't a straightforward proposition in the first place.
As for the farcical nature of declaring a result based on qualifying, at least that is based on a competitive exercise, i.e. qualifying. And in that exercise, Verstappen came out on top.

Max was also a bit lucky that he was able to nibble a few of the points back that Hamilton's accident in Silverstone cost him. But of course, Hamilton winning there after causing it was not lucky.
Why postponement and not cancellation, we seem just be wanting a reason for justifying the none race win, what happened at Silverstone is immaterial to what's being debated here and you've actually said that Max was lucky anyway.
I haven't read any decent explanation for why no postponement or cancellation was decided upon. One consideration I believe would have been that the weekend had actually started, whereas earlier cancellations due to Covid-19 happened with some time to go before the scheduled weekend.
I was full of admiration for the many fans who remained at the track for a delayed Grand Prix, and would love to know what they felt of the half points awarded, especially those fans who weren't there on Saturday.
My personal view is that postponement would have been the logical thing to do, but since the owners of F1 want to milk the cow for all she has, there simply isn't a weekend available to do so.

I find it hard to understand that what happened at Silverstone, has no bearing on who will win the championship, in your view. Monza hasn't, Silverstone very clearly has.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Fiki »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:51 pm
Also if you want to review 2008 maybe you should look at some of the questionable penalties given against Hamilton which includes a gifted win for Massa at Spa.
Well, if Hamilton is serious about saying "we win as a team, we lose as a team", then his team is where he would need to look for that Massa win. I still remember why, do you?
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:16 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
I don’t consider the cars to be equal. I think it’s been fairly obvious which car has been better (the advantage is small but clear nonetheless). That is precisely why I would rate a Verstappen WDC so highly.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:16 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
I think it's fair to say that beating the most successful driver of all time in inferior equipment (if indeed it does end up the inferior car as now looks likely) would be a hell of an achievement. Given how highly you rate Hamilton I'd say you'd have to be more impressed by it than most.
Last edited by mikeyg123 on Sat Oct 23, 2021 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 4:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:16 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
I think it's fair to say that beating the most successful driver of all time in inferior equipment would be a hell of an achievement. Given how highly you rate Hamilton I'd say you'd have to be more impressed by it than most.
Perez being so poor has made the Redbull and Max look like the underdogs.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:16 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
I don’t consider the cars to be equal. I think it’s been fairly obvious which car has been better (the advantage is small but clear nonetheless). That is precisely why I would rate a Verstappen WDC so highly.
I agree, the Red Bull was marginally ahead so far, but real close to equal. How it will be in the upcoming races remains to be seen.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by tootsie323 »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 8:35 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, Verstappen's lack of caution and assumption that Hamilton had backed off at Copse will have cost him the title.
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, getting taken out by his championship rival in a poorly executed move, despite leaving more than enough space, will have cost him the title...
Can I play devil's advocate to the devil's advocate..?
If he's within 18 points of Hamilton, Hamilton will be vindicated in backing out of Turn 1 at Barcelona.
(I'm sure we could go on all day..!)
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tootsie323
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by tootsie323 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 5:57 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:16 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
I don’t consider the cars to be equal. I think it’s been fairly obvious which car has been better (the advantage is small but clear nonetheless). That is precisely why I would rate a Verstappen WDC so highly.
I agree, the Red Bull was marginally ahead so far, but real close to equal. How it will be in the upcoming races remains to be seen.
Not so convinced. Personally, given the choice of cars I'd coose the Merc over the RB. However, I'd prefer the RB pit / strategy team over Merc.
From the drivers I do think that Verstappen has driven better from the two key protagonists this year. Give him Hamilton's expience and this WDC would not be as close as it is. This is from someone who, whilt not his biggest fan, rates Hamilton as arguably the greatest.
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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by IDFD »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:16 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 7:44 pm
Perhaps I am overreacting to FP1, but if Verstappen somehow pulls of this title (very doubtful), it will go down as one of the greatest titles of all time.

Luck is against him and the quality of the car is against him.
Well the cars thus far have been quite equal, the luck was certainly against him in the first half of the season, that's been reversed in the second half of the season although maybe not to the same extent, I would be guessing you wouldn't be given any plaudits to Hamilton if he wins the title.
I don’t consider the cars to be equal. I think it’s been fairly obvious which car has been better (the advantage is small but clear nonetheless). That is precisely why I would rate a Verstappen WDC so highly.
Hopefully after that quali you'll finally drop this rubbish. It's clear the Redbull has been the better car this season and you're trying to create a narrative to suit Max.

This is a track Hamilton is a specialist at.

You over react. Behave emotionally and talk fairy cakes to talk Max up.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Invade »

This is the first time the whole season I feel like actually saying perhaps Red Bull are now slightly more likely to win the WDC... possibly even edge the WCC - seems the Merc engines are a bit fishy.

I'm not sure how people are convinced one car is faster than the other on balance throughout the season either. I mean, sure, to have the opinion that one car has the edge, but to be definitive about it sounds desperate. A lot of discussion about it all across the interwebz.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by Yeboah24 »

Invade wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:11 pm
This is the first time the whole season I feel like actually saying perhaps Red Bull are now slightly more likely to win the WDC... possibly even edge the WCC - seems the Merc engines are a bit fishy.

I'm not sure how people are convinced one car is faster than the other on balance throughout the season either. I mean, sure, to have the opinion that one car has the edge, but to be definitive about it sounds desperate.
Agree, either team would have to be clearly quicker in the remaining races for me to say confidently one was the quicker car over the season. Forum members need to accept their view is based on an opinion about lewis vs. Max over 1 lap and a race distance, which is a guess really. Cant wait for the season end debates

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by IDFD »

I expect Max and Lewis to DNF tomorrow at the first corner by Max being clumsy.

The idea that Max has 9 pole positions and Lewis 3 completely destroys the idea Red Bull is the inferior car. Max fans like Max have a silly arrogance. I actually think Red Bull has clearly been the better car but people want to create a narrative like they did in 07/08/17/18

And it's not a surprise one of the main people pushing that narrative was the one in 2017/18 banging on about how much better Vettel was than Hamilton but now denies it even though their posting history is there for all to read.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by IDFD »

Is there genuinely any person on the planet that believes Perez is beating Bottas on one lap pace in an inferior car.

Or beating Hamilton on race pace in an inferior car?

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by KingVoid »

IDFD wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 10:46 pm
I expect Max and Lewis to DNF tomorrow at the first corner by Max being clumsy.

The idea that Max has 9 pole positions and Lewis 3 completely destroys the idea Red Bull is the inferior car. Max fans like Max have a silly arrogance. I actually think Red Bull has clearly been the better car but people want to create a narrative like they did in 07/08/17/18
Oh, so you are a fan of the scoreboard now, but when Mercedes had more poles than Ferrari in 2017 and 2018, it was just because Lewis is faster right?

Let’s analyze these pole positions;

Silverstone - Hamilton takes sprint pole on Friday but Hamilton has a rubbish start and loses pole in the sprint race

Monza - Mercedes takes 1-2 in sprint qualifying on Friday but Hamilton has a rubbish start and loses pole in the sprint race

Turkey - Hamilton technically took pole but took his engine penalty that weekend

Russia - Norris took pole because Hamilton and Mercedes messed up Q3 by crashing in the pitlane

But keep whining about Red Bull’s speed, when this is literally the first weekend since Zandvoort where they’ve had the fastest qualy car.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by IDFD »

Your answer to Russia is nonsense and shows the sort of attitude you have. Merc came in too late and were never getting pole.

As for 17/18 you currently deny saying Vettel was faster that Hamilton. I could quote your post but it's more amusing you deny them even after I've been back through them.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by KingVoid »

IDFD wrote:
Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:29 pm
Your answer to Russia is nonsense and shows the sort of attitude you have. Merc came in too late and were never getting pole.
Mercedes were the fastest car that weekend. Two reasons they did not get pole:

1. Strategy from the team not to pit earlier
2. Hamilton crashing into the wall and compromising the whole qualy session

Nonetheless they should have taken pole, especially with Verstappen out of qualifying.

The 9-3 scoreline is so incredibly misleading, just accounting for the sprint races alone, it changes to 7-5.

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Re: Who will win the Championships?

Post by IDFD »

I mean you know the second reason you gave had nothing to do with it and it was all the first. But it shows your bias.

As I said though you run on emotions not facts. Hence your post after FP1. When everyone knows FP1 doesn't matter.

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