Why Team Orders Stink...

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Battle Far
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Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Battle Far »

At the DTM finale, South African Schumacher acolyte Kelvin van der Linde (Audi, title challenger) took out Championship leader Liam Lawson (Ferrari) at the hairpin on lap 1

With 3 laps to go Lucas Auer was leading Philip Ellis with Maximilian Götz in 3rd, all in Mercedes.

With Lawson out of the picture after what can only be described as disgusting behaviour from the South African who'd done the same thing at the same corner the previous day, Mercedes ordered Auer & Ellis to let Gotz past so he could win the championship.

This example is precisely why no F1 team should ever run more than 2 cars and, if caught transparently manipulating results in a similar way, receive race or even championship bans.

IMO this incident is far worse than Ferrari's bendy floor or Mclaren's spygate. Tantamount to contempt for the sport let alone the paying spectator the stench of Mercedes DTM team behaviour can be smelt in every factory across Germany and the world.

Please don't buy a Mercedes

edited as requested
Last edited by Battle Far on Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Johnson
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Johnson »

Is Kelvin VDL also a Mercedes driver?

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Your post is highly confusing to anyone who (like me) doesn't follow the series. I assumed from your post that the driver who took out the championship leader was a Mercedes driver, doing so to help his team mate.

I think for the clarification for anyone reading your post you should make it clear that Kelvin van der Linde isn't a Mercedes driver, he is an Audi driver, and his actions are totally independent and have nothing to do with team orders. If he had been, then this would be appalling.

However, what you have described - a team letting its championship contender past its other team mates - is something we have seen multiple times in F1. Particularly in 2007 when Massa was put behind Kimi (they did it covertly via pitstops as team orders were technically illegal at the time - but Massa had had the pace on Kimi all weekend and finished on his gearbox, and everyone knew it was a team strategy, but an understandable and expected one) - we also saw Bottas, Barrichello, Salo all concede race wins to team mates for the championship in other races.

Yesterday, Red Bull compromised the race strategies of both Alpha Tauris and Perez to hold up Hamilton.

I'm struggling to see the outrage here.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Battle Far wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 12:02 pm
At the DTM finale, South African Schumacher acolyte Kelvin van der Linde took out Championship leader Liam Lawson at the hairpin on lap 1

With 3 laps to go Lucas Auer was leading Philip Ellis with Maximilian Götz in 3rd, all in Mercedes.

With Lawson out of the picture after what can only be described as disgusting behaviour from the South African who'd done the same thing at the same corner the previous day, Mercedes ordered Auer & Ellis to let Gotz past so he could win the championship.

This example is precisely why no F1 team should ever run more than 2 cars and, if caught transparently manipulating results in a similar way, receive race or even championship bans.

IMO this incident is far worse than Ferrari's bendy floor or Mclaren's spygate. Tantamount to contempt of the sport let alone the paying spectator the stench of Mercedes DTM team behaviour can be smelt in every factory across Germany and the world.

Please don't buy a Mercedes
Well, indeed it was ridiculous. Auer was leading by 11 seconds with about 2 laps to go and basically needed to park his car to let Götz through. (Both driving Mercedes, albeit for different teams).

However, the real scandal was that Kelvin van der Linde (Abt Audi) took out clear championship leader and pole sitter Liam Lawson (AF Corse Ferrari) in the first corner in a move that was most obviously deliberate - and got away with a 5 sec penalty. If not for a later collision with Götz, he could have taken the title ...

By the way, Lawson's teammate at AF Corse Ferrari - comprehensively beaten by Lawson - was a certain Alexander Albon ... :nod: ;)

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Johnson
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Johnson »

Ah, so the real story is Kelvin VDL took his title rival out and was on course to win the title himself. That's not good.

I mean, what do we expect Mercedes to do, keep the order the same and lose themselves a title?

mikeyg123
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by mikeyg123 »

Johnson wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 1:14 pm
Ah, so the real story is Kelvin VDL took his title rival out and was on course to win the title himself. That's not good.

I mean, what do we expect Mercedes to do, keep the order the same and lose themselves a title?
I guess the thing with Mercedes is that they weren't actually in the same team. It was a driver for a different Mercedes team than conceded position. In F1 terms it would be like Gasly letting Verstappen through to take the championship.

Battle Far
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Battle Far »

mikeyg123 wrote:In F1 terms it would be like Gasly letting Verstappen through to take the championship.
Or Norris or Vettel letting Hamilton through

It stinks I tells ye

wolfticket
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by wolfticket »

In cycling team technical assistance like offering up wheels/bikes and such is a fundamental part of the sport. However offering having similar assistance from members of other teams because they are a friend, national teammate or whatever isn't allowed.
Maybe something along these lines should apply in motorsport. I don't mind team orders because it's a team sport, but start leveraging "sister" teams in the same way and you might as well start having 4 car teams.
Last edited by wolfticket on Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Delphic
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Delphic »

Battle Far wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:In F1 terms it would be like Gasly letting Verstappen through to take the championship.
Or Norris or Vettel letting Hamilton through

It stinks I tells ye
Not really. RB and AT are sister teams. Mercedes and Mclaren/AM/Williams are not. They are similar to Ferrari and Alfa Romeo/ Haas.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Exediron »

Delphic wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:42 pm
Battle Far wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:59 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:In F1 terms it would be like Gasly letting Verstappen through to take the championship.
Or Norris or Vettel letting Hamilton through

It stinks I tells ye
Not really. RB and AT are sister teams. Mercedes and Mclaren/AM/Williams are not. They are similar to Ferrari and Alfa Romeo/ Haas.
Officially, there's no such thing as a 'sister team'. From a rules standpoint, Red Bull and Alpha Tauri are two separate teams with no obligations to one another.

It sounds like the situation is pretty rotten, but it's hardly a first for DTM. The manufacturers have way too much influence over their teams, and have for a while now.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by WHoff78 »

The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by EPROM »

WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Exediron »

EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by JN23 »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
This has reminded me of something. During the early part of the F1 race on Sunday I saw Mercedes changing Hamilton’s pit board as he overtook someone. What’s the point of that? Can they not just tell him over the radio?

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Jezza13 »

As has been mentioned a million times, F1 is a team sport, predominantly a championship for the constructor, with the drivers championship being the cream on top of the cake. Every teams overwhelming priority, I have a sneaky suspicion with the possible exception of RB, is the constructors trophy, & the sport is built around that concept.

Personally, with a few exceptions, i've no issues with team orders if they benefit the team or, in the case where 1 of the drivers has no or a very little chance of winning the drivers title, it helps the other driver win the championship.
Exediron wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:51 pm

Officially, there's no such thing as a 'sister team'. From a rules standpoint, Red Bull and Alpha Tauri are two separate teams with no obligations to one another.
I do like that you put "officially" & "from a rules standpoint" in there Exed but do you believe there's no sister team connection there?

I've often wondered when was the last time Franz Tost had the final word in his choice of drivers? Or who made the ultimate choice for the then TR team to take Honda engines ? Or how did RB work out that the Honda engine had greater potential then the Renault & was the one to go with if data sharing between teams isn't allowed ?

I may be cynical, but i'm pretty sure i'm not, but I don't believe for 1 second that there's total,100% separation between those teams or that AT has no obligation to RB. I don't like that RB are allowed or are even in a position that may allow them to have any say over anything that happens at AT.

One positive I took away from Russia is that it confirmed to me that there was no gentlemen's agreement between Mercedes & McLaren should the circumstances arise where it was possible for Macca to help Merc. I'd feared that part of the engine deal. for this year at least, would be for Macca to act as a Merc " support team" & help them win the championships should they be in a position to.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.
Doesn't have to be; they could have a few standard/approved messages in the pit board and that's that. Something like the guy in P2 is 0.3 behind you ("P2 - 0.3") or "Pit in" or something. That's about it.

No "ALO>>>MAS" coded crap.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:16 am
As has been mentioned a million times, F1 is a team sport, predominantly a championship for the constructor, with the drivers championship being the cream on top of the cake. Every teams overwhelming priority, I have a sneaky suspicion with the possible exception of RB, is the constructors trophy, & the sport is built around that concept.

Personally, with a few exceptions, i've no issues with team orders if they benefit the team or, in the case where 1 of the drivers has no or a very little chance of winning the drivers title, it helps the other driver win the championship.
Exediron wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:51 pm

Officially, there's no such thing as a 'sister team'. From a rules standpoint, Red Bull and Alpha Tauri are two separate teams with no obligations to one another.
I do like that you put "officially" & "from a rules standpoint" in there Exed but do you believe there's no sister team connection there?

I've often wondered when was the last time Franz Tost had the final word in his choice of drivers? Or who made the ultimate choice for the then TR team to take Honda engines ? Or how did RB work out that the Honda engine had greater potential then the Renault & was the one to go with if data sharing between teams isn't allowed ?

I may be cynical, but i'm pretty sure i'm not, but I don't believe for 1 second that there's total,100% separation between those teams or that AT has no obligation to RB. I don't like that RB are allowed or are even in a position that may allow them to have any say over anything that happens at AT.

One positive I took away from Russia is that it confirmed to me that there was no gentlemen's agreement between Mercedes & McLaren should the circumstances arise where it was possible for Macca to help Merc. I'd feared that part of the engine deal. for this year at least, would be for Macca to act as a Merc " support team" & help them win the championships should they be in a position to.
Yes, but Macca are in their own fight against Ferrari at the moment with the closest margin on the grid (apart from Alfa and Haas) and need anything they can get. It is almost as exciting as the fight in the front. Merc is plenty capable to win without anyone's support.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Jezza13 »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:28 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.
Doesn't have to be; they could have a few standard/approved messages in the pit board and that's that. Something like the guy in P2 is 0.3 behind you ("P2 - 0.3") or "Pit in" or something. That's about it.

No "ALO>>>MAS" coded crap.
Yeah but you'd have to allow team radio on safety & reliability grounds at least

"Filipe, we're detecting a marked increase in tyre temps. We need to look after these tyres to get to the end"

Game over

They tried a no comms coaching ban a few years ago but reversed it, stating, rather ironically given the sprint race conversation going on now,

"This approach is aimed at providing improved content for fans and spectators, as teams will now be required to provide the Commercial Rights Holder with unrestricted access to their radio messages at all times that their cars are out of the garage."

They conveniently forgot that it was the fans that were calling for the coaching ban in the first place.

Edit: Didn't put the link in to the quote.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/comm ... s/3222387/
Last edited by Jezza13 on Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Siao7
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:51 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:28 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm


Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.
Doesn't have to be; they could have a few standard/approved messages in the pit board and that's that. Something like the guy in P2 is 0.3 behind you ("P2 - 0.3") or "Pit in" or something. That's about it.

No "ALO>>>MAS" coded crap.
Yeah but you'd have to allow team radio on safety & reliability grounds at least

"Filipe, we're detecting a marked increase in tyre temps. We need to look after these tyres to get to the end"

Game over

They tried a no comms coaching ban a few years ago but reversed it, stating, rather ironically given the sprint race conversation going on now,

"This approach is aimed at providing improved content for fans and spectators, as teams will now be required to provide the Commercial Rights Holder with unrestricted access to their radio messages at all times that their cars are out of the garage."

They conveniently forgot that it was the fans that were calling for the coaching ban in the first place.
That's true, but it can be one way communication only. The driver can be sending messages to the team only and they can only reply if there is something detected out of place. They'd have to back it up as well with proof if they are asked by the FIA.

Maybe it's too much to ask!

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by wire2004 »

This has been going on in the dtm since its inception and the reformation of the dark in the 90s. It's that it is so obvious as well.

Maybe if formula 1. And indeed dtm went the route of nascar each car is a independent team for the team overall and had it's own sponsors they would not have this problem. Also if they actually wrote into the rules that each team car. And driver must act independently. We wouldn't have the problems that the op has described.
Just as a example. Joe Gibbs racing has 4 cars in the organisation. That all act independently. The 11 of denny Hamlin. The 18 of Kyle Busch.. the 19 of martin truex Jr and the 20 of Christopher bell. As well as technical support for the 23 of bubba Wallace which is a completely differently owned organisation.
Apart from some bump drafting help on the plate tracks (daytona and Talladega) there is no help at all and there are severe consequences for any team helping another team out.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by wire2004 »

I fear that this years formula 1 battle is going to turn sour. And max verstappen will win the title. Which will leave a bitter taste in the mouth for not only myself. But all formula 1 fans.

Tsnoda has already come out and said that he will do what it takes to help verstappen. I fear that this is not a max vs veratappen. But that this is going to be verstappen and friends. (Perez. Gasley and tsnoda) vs hamilton. (With bottas helping Hamilton as his team mate)

And you know. The FIA are too spineless too do anything about red bull and there increasing influence in formula 1

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Jezza13 »

wire2004 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:42 am
I fear that this years formula 1 battle is going to turn sour. And max verstappen will win the title. Which will leave a bitter taste in the mouth for not only myself. But all formula 1 fans.

Tsnoda has already come out and said that he will do what it takes to help verstappen. I fear that this is not a max vs veratappen. But that this is going to be verstappen and friends. (Perez. Gasley and tsnoda) vs hamilton. (With bottas helping Hamilton as his team mate)

And you know. The FIA are too spineless too do anything about red bull and there increasing influence in formula 1
Of course this scenario is not only possible but i'd say highly probable, almost certain even.

The numbers are certainly stacked against Hamilton which probably makes the most important driver in the championship going forward Bottas. Merc & Hamilton need energetic Turkey Bottas & not the impotent Russia Bottas.

I just hope the speed advantage Merc demonstrated in Turkey carries over to other tracks dilutes the RB numerical advantage.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:28 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:16 pm
The manufacturers do have to much influence but assuming they do have that influence it’s hard to eliminate.

If the rules were changed to preclude it then I suspect we would simply hear a couple of laps of….”the PU seems to be intermittently losing power / gear seems to be stuck in low gear” until the position is ceded and the problem miraculously solves itself.
Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.
Doesn't have to be; they could have a few standard/approved messages in the pit board and that's that. Something like the guy in P2 is 0.3 behind you ("P2 - 0.3") or "Pit in" or something. That's about it.

No "ALO>>>MAS" coded crap.
That's not what steganography is. It can literally just be how the person holding the board positions their hands when they hold it out.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:00 am
wire2004 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:42 am
I fear that this years formula 1 battle is going to turn sour. And max verstappen will win the title. Which will leave a bitter taste in the mouth for not only myself. But all formula 1 fans.

Tsnoda has already come out and said that he will do what it takes to help verstappen. I fear that this is not a max vs veratappen. But that this is going to be verstappen and friends. (Perez. Gasley and tsnoda) vs hamilton. (With bottas helping Hamilton as his team mate)

And you know. The FIA are too spineless too do anything about red bull and there increasing influence in formula 1
Of course this scenario is not only possible but i'd say highly probable, almost certain even.

The numbers are certainly stacked against Hamilton which probably makes the most important driver in the championship going forward Bottas. Merc & Hamilton need energetic Turkey Bottas & not the impotent Russia Bottas.

I just hope the speed advantage Merc demonstrated in Turkey carries over to other tracks dilutes the RB numerical advantage.
I think that it is a very dark painted picture by Wire. How many times is Hamilton has or is going to be fighting an AT? Why are the number stacked against Hamilton? Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

I wonder, would people be saying that the WDC is going to leave a sour taste as Max was taken out twice this year?

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:18 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:28 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am
EPROM wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:45 pm


Or (as mentioned recently), just eliminate all communications between team and driver other than old-fashioned visual pit boards...
I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.
Doesn't have to be; they could have a few standard/approved messages in the pit board and that's that. Something like the guy in P2 is 0.3 behind you ("P2 - 0.3") or "Pit in" or something. That's about it.

No "ALO>>>MAS" coded crap.
That's not what steganography is. It can literally just be how the person holding the board positions their hands when they hold it out.
I know what it means, thank you very much. And sure, that could happen, but how far does the rabbit hole go? They could have people on the crowd sending messages with boards and lights for all we know. That doesn't make the pit boards obsolete or lacking; they can have specific rules, only these type of letters, these colours, no person holding it (they could hang from anything), designated messages only. It's not that difficult.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Jezza13 »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:20 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:00 am
wire2004 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:42 am
I fear that this years formula 1 battle is going to turn sour. And max verstappen will win the title. Which will leave a bitter taste in the mouth for not only myself. But all formula 1 fans.

Tsnoda has already come out and said that he will do what it takes to help verstappen. I fear that this is not a max vs veratappen. But that this is going to be verstappen and friends. (Perez. Gasley and tsnoda) vs hamilton. (With bottas helping Hamilton as his team mate)

And you know. The FIA are too spineless too do anything about red bull and there increasing influence in formula 1
Of course this scenario is not only possible but i'd say highly probable, almost certain even.

The numbers are certainly stacked against Hamilton which probably makes the most important driver in the championship going forward Bottas. Merc & Hamilton need energetic Turkey Bottas & not the impotent Russia Bottas.

I just hope the speed advantage Merc demonstrated in Turkey carries over to other tracks dilutes the RB numerical advantage.
I think that it is a very dark painted picture by Wire. How many times is Hamilton has or is going to be fighting an AT? Why are the number stacked against Hamilton? Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

I wonder, would people be saying that the WDC is going to leave a sour taste as Max was taken out twice this year?
He's effectively racing against a 4 car team. Going down to the wire i'd expect RB to begin to do things like strategically pit A/T cars for one.

Hamilton & Verstappen will certainly be lapping them at some stage & i'd not underestimate how that could potentially effect a race. Even lapping let's say Tsunoda could result in a 3-4 second gap swing either way. Maybe more if it happens at the right point. Times that by 2 there's 8-10 seconds right there.

It's not making a mountain out of a molehill, it's just a fact. This could happen.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:32 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:20 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:00 am
wire2004 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:42 am
I fear that this years formula 1 battle is going to turn sour. And max verstappen will win the title. Which will leave a bitter taste in the mouth for not only myself. But all formula 1 fans.

Tsnoda has already come out and said that he will do what it takes to help verstappen. I fear that this is not a max vs veratappen. But that this is going to be verstappen and friends. (Perez. Gasley and tsnoda) vs hamilton. (With bottas helping Hamilton as his team mate)

And you know. The FIA are too spineless too do anything about red bull and there increasing influence in formula 1
Of course this scenario is not only possible but i'd say highly probable, almost certain even.

The numbers are certainly stacked against Hamilton which probably makes the most important driver in the championship going forward Bottas. Merc & Hamilton need energetic Turkey Bottas & not the impotent Russia Bottas.

I just hope the speed advantage Merc demonstrated in Turkey carries over to other tracks dilutes the RB numerical advantage.
I think that it is a very dark painted picture by Wire. How many times is Hamilton has or is going to be fighting an AT? Why are the number stacked against Hamilton? Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

I wonder, would people be saying that the WDC is going to leave a sour taste as Max was taken out twice this year?
He's effectively racing against a 4 car team. Going down to the wire i'd expect RB to begin to do things like strategically pit A/T cars for one.

Hamilton & Verstappen will certainly be lapping them at some stage & i'd not underestimate how that could potentially effect a race. Even lapping let's say Tsunoda could result in a 3-4 second gap swing either way. Maybe more if it happens at the right point. Times that by 2 there's 8-10 seconds right there.

It's not making a mountain out of a molehill, it's just a fact. This could happen.
Of course it could happen, I wouldn't put anything past Horner, especially micro-aggressions like messing Mercedes's hot lap in Q3 or something. But calling FIA spineless to do anything about something that hasn't even happened yet, I find that a bit rich. We know that Bottas and Perez will try to defend and stall them as much as possible, but so far, that's about it. Not sure that RB can call AT's pits nor order them to stall Hamilton.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Jezza13 »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:40 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:32 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:20 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:00 am
wire2004 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:42 am
I fear that this years formula 1 battle is going to turn sour. And max verstappen will win the title. Which will leave a bitter taste in the mouth for not only myself. But all formula 1 fans.

Tsnoda has already come out and said that he will do what it takes to help verstappen. I fear that this is not a max vs veratappen. But that this is going to be verstappen and friends. (Perez. Gasley and tsnoda) vs hamilton. (With bottas helping Hamilton as his team mate)

And you know. The FIA are too spineless too do anything about red bull and there increasing influence in formula 1
Of course this scenario is not only possible but i'd say highly probable, almost certain even.

The numbers are certainly stacked against Hamilton which probably makes the most important driver in the championship going forward Bottas. Merc & Hamilton need energetic Turkey Bottas & not the impotent Russia Bottas.

I just hope the speed advantage Merc demonstrated in Turkey carries over to other tracks dilutes the RB numerical advantage.
I think that it is a very dark painted picture by Wire. How many times is Hamilton has or is going to be fighting an AT? Why are the number stacked against Hamilton? Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

I wonder, would people be saying that the WDC is going to leave a sour taste as Max was taken out twice this year?
He's effectively racing against a 4 car team. Going down to the wire i'd expect RB to begin to do things like strategically pit A/T cars for one.

Hamilton & Verstappen will certainly be lapping them at some stage & i'd not underestimate how that could potentially effect a race. Even lapping let's say Tsunoda could result in a 3-4 second gap swing either way. Maybe more if it happens at the right point. Times that by 2 there's 8-10 seconds right there.

It's not making a mountain out of a molehill, it's just a fact. This could happen.
Of course it could happen, I wouldn't put anything past Horner, especially micro-aggressions like messing Mercedes's hot lap in Q3 or something. But calling FIA spineless to do anything about something that hasn't even happened yet, I find that a bit rich. We know that Bottas and Perez will try to defend and stall them as much as possible, but so far, that's about it. Not sure that RB can call AT's pits nor order them to stall Hamilton.
Well I didn't call the FIA spineless & yeah I don't agree with that.

I fully expect RB to use AT in any & every way they can to help them win both championships. I would if I owned 2 teams & it meant hundreds of millions of dollars in my pocket.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:59 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:40 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:32 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:20 am
Jezza13 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:00 am

Of course this scenario is not only possible but i'd say highly probable, almost certain even.

The numbers are certainly stacked against Hamilton which probably makes the most important driver in the championship going forward Bottas. Merc & Hamilton need energetic Turkey Bottas & not the impotent Russia Bottas.

I just hope the speed advantage Merc demonstrated in Turkey carries over to other tracks dilutes the RB numerical advantage.
I think that it is a very dark painted picture by Wire. How many times is Hamilton has or is going to be fighting an AT? Why are the number stacked against Hamilton? Let's not make a mountain out of a molehill here.

I wonder, would people be saying that the WDC is going to leave a sour taste as Max was taken out twice this year?
He's effectively racing against a 4 car team. Going down to the wire i'd expect RB to begin to do things like strategically pit A/T cars for one.

Hamilton & Verstappen will certainly be lapping them at some stage & i'd not underestimate how that could potentially effect a race. Even lapping let's say Tsunoda could result in a 3-4 second gap swing either way. Maybe more if it happens at the right point. Times that by 2 there's 8-10 seconds right there.

It's not making a mountain out of a molehill, it's just a fact. This could happen.
Of course it could happen, I wouldn't put anything past Horner, especially micro-aggressions like messing Mercedes's hot lap in Q3 or something. But calling FIA spineless to do anything about something that hasn't even happened yet, I find that a bit rich. We know that Bottas and Perez will try to defend and stall them as much as possible, but so far, that's about it. Not sure that RB can call AT's pits nor order them to stall Hamilton.
Well I didn't call the FIA spineless & yeah I don't agree with that.

I fully expect RB to use AT in any & every way they can to help them win both championships. I would if I owned 2 teams & it meant hundreds of millions of dollars in my pocket.
For what it's worth, I didn't say it was you who said it, didn't mean that!

Both teams are owned by RB and AT is seen as a stepping stone to the RB team, but I do not think that so far this year there has been anything underhanded (and so far they have been neck and neck, so every little helps). Even if the AT boys defend stronger against a Merc, that is probably fine by me, as long as they keep it clean. It wouldn't taint the championship in my view.

The solution would obviously be that RB severs any ties with or even sells AT. But that won't happen anytime soon.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by IDFD »

What about Gasly waving Verstappen through at Russia after getting the message pretty much telling him to?

Surely we shouldn't be having sister team orders?

And we've seen AT keep Gasly out longer than what would be optimum for his race to hold Lewis further up twice already this season.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Fiki »

IDFD wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:36 am
What about Gasly waving Verstappen through at Russia after getting the message pretty much telling him to?

Surely we shouldn't be having sister team orders?

And we've seen AT keep Gasly out longer than what would be optimum for his race to hold Lewis further up twice already this season.
Was Gasly racing Verstappen for position? He finished a lap down.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by JN23 »

Fiki wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:39 am
IDFD wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:36 am
What about Gasly waving Verstappen through at Russia after getting the message pretty much telling him to?

Surely we shouldn't be having sister team orders?

And we've seen AT keep Gasly out longer than what would be optimum for his race to hold Lewis further up twice already this season.
Was Gasly racing Verstappen for position? He finished a lap down.
Early on he was because Verstappen started at the back.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Fiki »

JN23 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:58 am
Fiki wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:39 am
IDFD wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 11:36 am
What about Gasly waving Verstappen through at Russia after getting the message pretty much telling him to?

Surely we shouldn't be having sister team orders?

And we've seen AT keep Gasly out longer than what would be optimum for his race to hold Lewis further up twice already this season.
Was Gasly racing Verstappen for position? He finished a lap down.
Early on he was because Verstappen started at the back.
Thanks! Still, that does beg the question why a driver would prefer to lose time defending, rather than try to stick to his best pace at that moment. Having said that, there is the common engine supplier to consider, even if the teams are supposed to be independent.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:28 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:18 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:28 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:37 am
Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:38 am


I have to say, the idea of communicating by pit board in the year 2021 sounds almost comically backwards to me. I'm not a supporter.
The idea that a pit board only system would prevent team orders from being issued is even more lacking in logic - as soon as you are communicating information you give a conduit for human decodable steganographic messages.
Doesn't have to be; they could have a few standard/approved messages in the pit board and that's that. Something like the guy in P2 is 0.3 behind you ("P2 - 0.3") or "Pit in" or something. That's about it.

No "ALO>>>MAS" coded crap.
That's not what steganography is. It can literally just be how the person holding the board positions their hands when they hold it out.
I know what it means, thank you very much. And sure, that could happen, but how far does the rabbit hole go? They could have people on the crowd sending messages with boards and lights for all we know. That doesn't make the pit boards obsolete or lacking; they can have specific rules, only these type of letters, these colours, no person holding it (they could hang from anything), designated messages only. It's not that difficult.
At which point it would cease to be a traditional pit board.

But even if we went along with that, or even scrapped pit boards altogether and restricted the teams to only be able to give a driver an instruction to pit via a light that can only come on as the moment they cross the sector line for start of sector 3 so there is no way to impart information, they can still impart information to the driver during the pitstop.

Or they can even prep the driver with team orders based on the circumstances before going into the race (ie, Felipe if in the race you find yourself with Alonso behind you, remember he is faster than you) . The purpose of the suggestion to only use pit boards only was to prevent team orders. Team orders are unpreventable no matter what system you use. That is the point, and anyone who thinks they can prevent them is a fool. At least with radios they are out in the open and we know that they happened.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Exediron »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:16 pm
Or they can even prep the driver with team orders based on the circumstances before going into the race (ie, Felipe if in the race you find yourself with Alonso behind you, remember he is faster than you) . The purpose of the suggestion to only use pit boards only was to prevent team orders. Team orders are unpreventable no matter what system you use. That is the point, and anyone who thinks they can prevent them is a fool. At least with radios they are out in the open and we know that they happened.
This is the one they'd do, without question.

Instead of mid-race team orders, they would simply go through scenarios ahead of time. In fact, it would probably have the opposite effect to the intention; with no ability for the team to tell the #2 and #3 drivers when they need to yield position, the teams would probably just order them to do it every single time, meaning that they would always finish 1-2-3 regardless of where they would have been on merit.

I think what needs to be targeted here is the lack of independence for the teams, not the concept of team orders. That is a concept that cannot be separated from a team sport, and frankly the desire to do so to me implies a fundamental level of misunderstanding for the fans who want to do so. In my experience, people who are strongly anti-team order are the same ones who have managed to convince themselves that motorsport is about the driver instead of the team.
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:37 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:16 pm
Or they can even prep the driver with team orders based on the circumstances before going into the race (ie, Felipe if in the race you find yourself with Alonso behind you, remember he is faster than you) . The purpose of the suggestion to only use pit boards only was to prevent team orders. Team orders are unpreventable no matter what system you use. That is the point, and anyone who thinks they can prevent them is a fool. At least with radios they are out in the open and we know that they happened.
This is the one they'd do, without question.

Instead of mid-race team orders, they would simply go through scenarios ahead of time. In fact, it would probably have the opposite effect to the intention; with no ability for the team to tell the #2 and #3 drivers when they need to yield position, the teams would probably just order them to do it every single time, meaning that they would always finish 1-2-3 regardless of where they would have been on merit.

I think what needs to be targeted here is the lack of independence for the teams, not the concept of team orders. That is a concept that cannot be separated from a team sport, and frankly the desire to do so to me implies a fundamental level of misunderstanding for the fans who want to do so. In my experience, people who are strongly anti-team order are the same ones who have managed to convince themselves that motorsport is about the driver instead of the team.
Of course. But that's not what I was trying to convey, these scenarios are all nice and well before the race, but it's more than that, they should not have live info on the car. I mean, every race evolves, and we often hear them asking "how far is that guy behind me", "is my race compromised, should I push or not" or "am I in the window for pitting" (against another driver for under/overcut). It's not about preventing team orders (and be called a fool - sigh), these can be mostly pre-determined as you mentioned.

For me it's the needless, annoying coaching and simple pit-board orders can somewhat prevent that in my view (probably not eliminate it though). We can start talking about the coaching and if it is needed or not; in many other sports the coaches talk to the players during the game, which is fine. But that's down to individual opinion I guess.

I agree with your original note that the pit board seems like an old-fashioned item here, out of place, but there is at least some standard info that you could convey via the pit board (if there is a ban of radio communication) if you wanted to somewhat limit the coaching. And I don't mind that.

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by DOLOMITE »

van der Linde has now posted an apology on Twitter, fair play to him. Doesn't give Lawson his title though.....
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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Siao7 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:38 am
van der Linde has now posted an apology on Twitter, fair play to him. Doesn't give Lawson his title though.....
He has apparently called him and apologised personally, which is the least you'd expect

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Re: Why Team Orders Stink...

Post by Yeboah24 »

I dont watch DTM, can i assume the moves KVL made in both those final round races are common place. He did the same thing in each race, if anything the second race t1 was worse. What a joke , feel sorry for lawson there, completely screwed over. Not sure how hard i coukd celebrate the title under those circumstances

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