Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Forum rules
Please read the forum rules
Post Reply

Who was at fault for the accident at the Italian GP?

Hamilton
4
4%
Verstappen
65
68%
Racing Incident
27
28%
 
Total votes: 96

User avatar
tootsie323
Posts: 3675
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by tootsie323 »

FormulaFun wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:30 am
Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:01 am
FormulaFun wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:16 am
So for anyone that thinks it is a racing incident or even that Hamilton is at fault - do you believe that Verstappen should have gotten a maybe 5 second penalty for contacting Hamilton off the track through not leaving a space and causing Hamilton to lose a position? Would like to hear how you excuse that driving.
Of course he should. Lewis was entitled to space there, as Max was at T1. Yesterday is the first time I'm aware of where stewards have actively said a driver was not entitled to space.
Interesting. I don't recall you mentioning anything about it during Imola, Spain, first corners of Silverstone, or after the turn 1 incident at Monza maybe I'm wrong but just seems a bit inconsistent on your side.
Those weren't debated because they didn't result in the protagonists having their races ended. We may start drawing comparisons now (and were after the Silverstione incident) because of what has just happened.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

Yeboah24
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:09 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Yeboah24 »

What is the downside of saying to the drivers

You cant crowd out on exit, intentional or not
You cant crowd out on entry, intentional or not
You cant crowd out mid corner, intentional or not

Add to that something like

If at the apex the overtakers "insert preferred % of car overlap required" , defending driver should leave a full cars width on exit
If at entry...etc. defending driver should leave a full cars width at apex (and exit where its a chicane, so quick next turn entry)

Now, you could stipulate that for entry you had to have more % alongside to be due the room, to prevent block passes or lunges. Max's move was a block pass, he intended to overspeed through t1, compromising t2 exit, which wouldnt matter as lewis exit would also be poor due to jumping out the way.

Lap 1 turn 4 was different in that lewis didnt need to late brake to get fully alongside.

Now, we do want drivers that are good on the brakes to be able to use their abilities, which above might squash so ye there is that to contend with

Bin this idea that lap 1 is a free for all, full rules and judgement should apply imo. If your tyres arent warm so what, drive accordingly

Or, leave rules as they are but have a cross team working party to agree interpretation and steward guidance for a number of different racing scenarios. I mean id like to think the stewards have some descent procedural documentation which includes all sorts, but decisions suggest not

Rockie
Posts: 2600
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Rockie »

The funny thing is both have gotten the same penalty for different incidents.

As it was a 10 sec penalty but because his race was done as well it morphs to a 3 place grid penalty at the next race.

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by DOLOMITE »

I see the way Max phrased it, and respect to him for wording it well, but it also highlights the flaw in his thinking. It takes two, but either of them could have done something individually to avoid it - Lewis could have made room, Max could have backed out. Neither did.

The issue I have is the concept of leaving room - that's quite different in my mind to *making* room - which Lewis would have made the corner on the line he was on. Verstappen had a fair go, but that gap was always going to close. For Hamilton to "leave" room he would literally have to have steered away from his line - effectively giving Verstappen a gap that otherwise not have been there. I don't think you should have to do that.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

User avatar
MistaVega23
Posts: 1995
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:29 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by MistaVega23 »

Re-watching the start and Max doesn't even attempt to go around the outside of Daniel into turn one.

Would he have done the same if it was Lewis who beat him off the line?
#KeepFightingMichael

FormulaFun
Posts: 2866
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by FormulaFun »

No he'd have crashed into him evidently

mikeyg123
Posts: 19751
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:36 pm
I see the way Max phrased it, and respect to him for wording it well, but it also highlights the flaw in his thinking. It takes two, but either of them could have done something individually to avoid it - Lewis could have made room, Max could have backed out. Neither did.

The issue I have is the concept of leaving room - that's quite different in my mind to *making* room - which Lewis would have made the corner on the line he was on. Verstappen had a fair go, but that gap was always going to close. For Hamilton to "leave" room he would literally have to have steered away from his line - effectively giving Verstappen a gap that otherwise not have been there. I don't think you should have to do that.
I mainly agree, but playing devils advocate....

Don't most overtakes (that aren't on the straight under DRS) require the defending driver to give space that wouldn't otherwise be there?

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by DOLOMITE »

FormulaFun wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:00 pm
No he'd have crashed into him evidently
:]
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

User avatar
Badgeronimous
Posts: 1048
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Badgeronimous »

Fiki wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:48 am
Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:28 am
Fiki wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:27 am
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:36 am
Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:31 am


There is no reason at all for the cars to be this big. They could easy take 20cm off the width, and probably a metre at least off the length, and do away with the size zero sidepods in the process to accommodate all the parts that no longer have space meaning the floor in front of the rear wheel is better protected and less likely to shatter and cause punctures. It's either that or a lot of the old circuits are no longer fit to host F1, because they don't have half a mile of width.
There are very good reasons for cars to be this big
1. To carry 100kg for fuel
2. To carry ERS
3. To carry the batteries.
If we ditch the ERS, batteries and bring back refuelling then the cars can be smaller
There's a further reason why, and I believe it is the prime reason: aerodynamics! The shorter you make a car, the harder it is to package everything and still shape it to have the airflow you want/need.

There's no immediate need to make the cars smaller, if FIA/F1 can be persuaded to write clear rules instead of poorly edited ones, and if the FIA/F1 can be persuaded to enforce them, instead of promoting the idea of "letting them race" regardless of the consequences for safety.
Smaller cars = better racing. More space between cars (potentially, at least) would prevent some of the contact we've seen in recent years.
That depends on what you mean by smaller. I understand "more space between cars" as the cars being narrower. Well, we've had that for a number of years, and I don't recall the racing being that much better than before. Which is understandable: narrower cars mean more room for attempts for which there was thought to be no room with wider cars.
The tighter the corner the more length becomes relevant (anyone who has ever moved house will know long narrow furniture is harder to get round tight bends than shorter stuff). 5.75m is a ridiculous length for a single seater circuit racing car - the cars are currently as wide as they ever have been, but appear narrower as they are over a metre longer.

Problem is, the best overtaking opportunities after DRS on the straight is..... tighter corners and their braking zones. It is hard to get side by side racing in these cars around slower corners due to the fact they take up about 10% more surface area than the biggest Range Rover, they become very clumsy the tighter the track becomes.

I don't want to see F1 cars become micromachines, but getting them back to being the size of a large family saloon, rather than having the same road area dimensions as a Chevy Suburban can only help racing.

The size of the cars definitely played a part in yesterdays collision - and alot of the collisions we get in general
Last edited by Badgeronimous on Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
DOLOMITE
Posts: 2262
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by DOLOMITE »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:05 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:36 pm
I see the way Max phrased it, and respect to him for wording it well, but it also highlights the flaw in his thinking. It takes two, but either of them could have done something individually to avoid it - Lewis could have made room, Max could have backed out. Neither did.

The issue I have is the concept of leaving room - that's quite different in my mind to *making* room - which Lewis would have made the corner on the line he was on. Verstappen had a fair go, but that gap was always going to close. For Hamilton to "leave" room he would literally have to have steered away from his line - effectively giving Verstappen a gap that otherwise not have been there. I don't think you should have to do that.
I mainly agree, but playing devils advocate....

Don't most overtakes (that aren't on the straight under DRS) require the defending driver to give space that wouldn't otherwise be there?
No, I don't think so. May require them to not move INTO a space!
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

WHoff78
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by WHoff78 »

Applying the logic of some, looking at Lap 1 – Turn 4/5 (Roggia Chicane) the current application of the rules mean that as Hamilton is alongside he is therefore entitled to hold his line going into the corner. If he doesn’t back out, and stays side by side with Max, they both collide and Hamilton effectively draws the penalty, assuming he even makes it through the corner. So for me we are effectively talking about Hamilton getting rewarded for contacting another driver. For me this is the bigger problem, and you can’t make different decisions or excuses for different corners.

Di Resta even made reference that they changed the rules 5-years ago, but by saying that the defending driver should leave space to the outside, after the apex, you are not promoting racing in my eyes. You are rewarding risky drivers who are happy to risk contact and end both drivers races for the sake of a penalty. A driver who can’t take the risk or knows better will always back out. I get why people might think this is a good thing, but rewarding contact is the unintended consequence of this change, and the sooner it is stamped out the better. For me, Max still tends to be too aggressive at times, but the bigger fault lies with the rules.

In Turn 1/2 it is even more extreme, because the driver on the inside has a much more extreme change of direction to make the apex of turn 2, let alone leave a cars width. If you enforced that, then you effectively hand the advantage to the driver on the outside, which is obviously not right either.

For what it’s worth I don’t think Max did anything wrong on the first lap. And I do not want to see Hamilton trying to compete for the same piece of tarmac at turn 5 with the two colliding. If Max is not using the full width of the track then fine. But he is also fully entitled to do so, and the onus should be on the overtaking driver round the outside to avoid contact if he does.

mikeyg123
Posts: 19751
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:05 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:36 pm
I see the way Max phrased it, and respect to him for wording it well, but it also highlights the flaw in his thinking. It takes two, but either of them could have done something individually to avoid it - Lewis could have made room, Max could have backed out. Neither did.

The issue I have is the concept of leaving room - that's quite different in my mind to *making* room - which Lewis would have made the corner on the line he was on. Verstappen had a fair go, but that gap was always going to close. For Hamilton to "leave" room he would literally have to have steered away from his line - effectively giving Verstappen a gap that otherwise not have been there. I don't think you should have to do that.
I mainly agree, but playing devils advocate....

Don't most overtakes (that aren't on the straight under DRS) require the defending driver to give space that wouldn't otherwise be there?
No, I don't think so. May require them to not move INTO a space!
Ah, sorry

I think I see what you mean.

Yeboah24
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:09 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Yeboah24 »

Driver 61 thinks lewis wasnt aggressive enough at mod corner, doing what max did at turn 4 would give max.no option but to bail. By not completely closing max off earlier he invited the attempt

User avatar
Tufty
Posts: 2761
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:33 pm
Location: Colwyn Bay, North Wales

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Tufty »

Fiki wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:48 am
Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:28 am
Fiki wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:27 am
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:36 am
Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:31 am


There is no reason at all for the cars to be this big. They could easy take 20cm off the width, and probably a metre at least off the length, and do away with the size zero sidepods in the process to accommodate all the parts that no longer have space meaning the floor in front of the rear wheel is better protected and less likely to shatter and cause punctures. It's either that or a lot of the old circuits are no longer fit to host F1, because they don't have half a mile of width.
There are very good reasons for cars to be this big
1. To carry 100kg for fuel
2. To carry ERS
3. To carry the batteries.
If we ditch the ERS, batteries and bring back refuelling then the cars can be smaller
There's a further reason why, and I believe it is the prime reason: aerodynamics! The shorter you make a car, the harder it is to package everything and still shape it to have the airflow you want/need.

There's no immediate need to make the cars smaller, if FIA/F1 can be persuaded to write clear rules instead of poorly edited ones, and if the FIA/F1 can be persuaded to enforce them, instead of promoting the idea of "letting them race" regardless of the consequences for safety.
Smaller cars = better racing. More space between cars (potentially, at least) would prevent some of the contact we've seen in recent years.
That depends on what you mean by smaller. I understand "more space between cars" as the cars being narrower. Well, we've had that for a number of years, and I don't recall the racing being that much better than before. Which is understandable: narrower cars mean more room for attempts for which there was thought to be no room with wider cars.
Length is also a factor, it's easier to pass a shorter car, because you're alongside it for less time.
Anyone in or near North Wales interested in an RC car racing tournament?

User avatar
F1 MERCENARY
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Location: Miami, Florida

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

While I deem this incident to be 1,000% Verstappen's fault, the sausage kerbs need to go. They add an unnecessary element of danger and had they not been there he may have been able to pull further over without losing control. The actual launch was caused by the rear wheels touching, but maybe if the sausages weren't there he wouldn't have encroached on Hamiton as much.

Regardless, a 3 grid spot penalty isn't strong enough if a penalty and once again the Teflon Kid gets off pretty easy. He should have been issued a 1-race ban for his impetuousness and total disregard after the crash.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: Leclerc :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 9051
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Exediron »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:02 am
While I deem this incident to be 1,000% Verstappen's fault, the sausage kerbs need to go. They add an unnecessary element of danger and had they not been there he may have been able to pull further over without losing control. The actual launch was caused by the rear wheels touching, but maybe if the sausages weren't there he wouldn't have encroached on Hamiton as much.
But on the other hand, sausage kerbs are one of the very few actual deterrents to cutting a corner that the FIA is willing to use. Without that sausage kerb, we'd probably see people lightly cutting the chicane almost every lap. Its presence forces drivers to respect the corner or pay the price.
PICK 10 COMPETITION (9 wins, 23 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

WHoff78
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by WHoff78 »

Yeah, not convinced that the sausage kerbs are to blame in this incident.

StanB123
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by StanB123 »

I voted racing incident in the Silverstone accident thread and will do so again for this one. These two just don't give each other an inch, and never will.

However, if I were to blame anyone I would blame this one firmly on Verstappen, and the Silverstone one on Hamilton.

They've both been very lucky though, and especially Hamilton in Silverstone by finishing the race with a win and walking away unscathed in Monza.

Fiki
Posts: 8382
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Fiki »

WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:10 am
Yeah, not convinced that the sausage kerbs are to blame in this incident.
They certainly played a role in turning an incident into an accident. And while I disagree with Mercenary regarding responsibility for the actual accident, I certainly agree that the sausage kerbs have got to go. They serve no purpose other than dissuading a driver from abusing track limits, and making accidental track limits violations potentially dangerous.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Fiki
Posts: 8382
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Fiki »

Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:35 pm
Fiki wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:48 am
Tufty wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:28 am
Fiki wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:27 am
angrypirate wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:36 am

There are very good reasons for cars to be this big
1. To carry 100kg for fuel
2. To carry ERS
3. To carry the batteries.
If we ditch the ERS, batteries and bring back refuelling then the cars can be smaller
There's a further reason why, and I believe it is the prime reason: aerodynamics! The shorter you make a car, the harder it is to package everything and still shape it to have the airflow you want/need.

There's no immediate need to make the cars smaller, if FIA/F1 can be persuaded to write clear rules instead of poorly edited ones, and if the FIA/F1 can be persuaded to enforce them, instead of promoting the idea of "letting them race" regardless of the consequences for safety.
Smaller cars = better racing. More space between cars (potentially, at least) would prevent some of the contact we've seen in recent years.
That depends on what you mean by smaller. I understand "more space between cars" as the cars being narrower. Well, we've had that for a number of years, and I don't recall the racing being that much better than before. Which is understandable: narrower cars mean more room for attempts for which there was thought to be no room with wider cars.
Length is also a factor, it's easier to pass a shorter car, because you're alongside it for less time.
That is correct, but according to F1, fans want more wheel-to-wheel "combat".
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 4473
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Formula 1 cars were 2 metres long right up until the start of the 1998 season, James Hunt was temporarily disqualified for being 2.02 metres wide at the Spanish GP. Length is probably a bigger factor than width.

The fuel weight is not a issue as during refueling overtaking on track happens less often. The engine has a minimum weight i the regs, to stop expensive light weight composites being developed to keep costs down. The Halo and safety structures add a lot of weight to the cars.

But I think that this line of discussion is going off topic and probably warrants its own thread...

Siao7
Posts: 9573
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Siao7 »

I voted racing incident. If pushed, I'd probably say Max at fault, but still incident.

I'm just glad that Hamilton is ok.

Fiki
Posts: 8382
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Fiki »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:36 am
Formula 1 cars were 2 metres long right up until the start of the 1998 season, James Hunt was temporarily disqualified for being 2.02 metres wide at the Spanish GP. Length is probably a bigger factor than width.
I suppose you meant to write 2 metres wide?

Just one last remark concerning this; I consider width to be the first factor where tightness of track corners is concerned. Length is a function of aerodynamics rather than wheel base these days. Only by serious restrictions on aerodynamics can that be changed, but the last change to date was intended to increase the aero performance in a search for lap records. Next year's formula change may be the answer to a lot of problems, but so far, not a single car has tested the new formula, so it may simply prove as dud as the 2009 rules.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

WHoff78
Posts: 962
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by WHoff78 »

Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:12 am
WHoff78 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:10 am
Yeah, not convinced that the sausage kerbs are to blame in this incident.
They certainly played a role in turning an incident into an accident. And while I disagree with Mercenary regarding responsibility for the actual accident, I certainly agree that the sausage kerbs have got to go. They serve no purpose other than dissuading a driver from abusing track limits, and making accidental track limits violations potentially dangerous.
Any safety device or application when used incorrectly is potentially dangerous. That does not mean that the safety device is the problem. It could have also prevented many incidents because drivers know that they need to bail if they are going to encroach on them. Perhaps you are both right. It should be looked at but the snap decision should not be too assume that is the problem. It seems pretty uncommon so i just question whether it is more the inappropriate actions of the driver in this incident. In which case they could also just be very clear that someone trying to overtake while on the kerbs will be punished more severely in future based on the outcome of this incident.

User avatar
MistaVega23
Posts: 1995
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:29 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by MistaVega23 »

We've all seen how hot-headed Verstappen can be - Brazil 2018 being a prime example.

Just because he couldn't bear the thought of a 'slower car' unlapping himself he chose to race Ocon, and lost a win as a result.

The boy just doesn't learn.
#KeepFightingMichael

Fiki
Posts: 8382
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Fiki »

MistaVega23 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:47 pm
We've all seen how hot-headed Verstappen can be - Brazil 2018 being a prime example.

Just because he couldn't bear the thought of a 'slower car' unlapping himself he chose to race Ocon, and lost a win as a result.

The boy just doesn't learn.
That action in Brazil was sheer stupidity, and it was one of those actions for which I remained very critical of Verstappen. Although I feel his race engineer should share the blame for ruining Ocon's race, he should have ordered his driver to simply let that one go.

But this year, Max was acting with much more maturity. And up to Silverstone he really was doing just fine.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

Rockie
Posts: 2600
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Rockie »

Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:39 pm
MistaVega23 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:47 pm
We've all seen how hot-headed Verstappen can be - Brazil 2018 being a prime example.

Just because he couldn't bear the thought of a 'slower car' unlapping himself he chose to race Ocon, and lost a win as a result.

The boy just doesn't learn.
That action in Brazil was sheer stupidity, and it was one of those actions for which I remained very critical of Verstappen. Although I feel his race engineer should share the blame for ruining Ocon's race, he should have ordered his driver to simply let that one go.

But this year, Max was acting with much more maturity. And up to Silverstone he really was doing just fine.
He has not been acting with much maturity at all, he just had the benefit of a car he didn't need to push, and now that he has to he has returned to past form.

User avatar
Covalent
Posts: 10405
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Covalent »

Lewis when they first trialled the halo:
“Please no! This is the worst looking mod in Formula 1 history. I appreciate the quest for safety but this is formula 1, and the way it is now is perfectly fine.”
8)

User avatar
Exediron
Posts: 9051
Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Exediron »

Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:18 pm
Next year's formula change may be the answer to a lot of problems, but so far, not a single car has tested the new formula, so it may simply prove as dud as the 2009 rules.
The 2009 rules were a dud? I actually remember them as mostly working as intended...
PICK 10 COMPETITION (9 wins, 23 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion

mikeyg123
Posts: 19751
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:40 pm
Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:18 pm
Next year's formula change may be the answer to a lot of problems, but so far, not a single car has tested the new formula, so it may simply prove as dud as the 2009 rules.
The 2009 rules were a dud? I actually remember them as mostly working as intended...
2009 produced the closest field front to back we've ever had AND the cars could follow far more closely than they could today. If the drivers had the level of enthusiasm for overtaking back then as they do now then we would have had great racing.

Fiki
Posts: 8382
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Location: Belgium

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Fiki »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:40 pm
Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:18 pm
Next year's formula change may be the answer to a lot of problems, but so far, not a single car has tested the new formula, so it may simply prove as dud as the 2009 rules.
The 2009 rules were a dud? I actually remember them as mostly working as intended...
If that was so, why was it ditched after 1 year? Were cars really that much more able to follow the one ahead through corners? Did the driver-adjustable front wing flap really work well enough to allow the drivers to follow closely? As I recall, they ditched the adjustable front wing flap and went for the DRS instead.
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi

StanB123
Posts: 117
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by StanB123 »

Rockie wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm
Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:39 pm
MistaVega23 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:47 pm
We've all seen how hot-headed Verstappen can be - Brazil 2018 being a prime example.

Just because he couldn't bear the thought of a 'slower car' unlapping himself he chose to race Ocon, and lost a win as a result.

The boy just doesn't learn.
That action in Brazil was sheer stupidity, and it was one of those actions for which I remained very critical of Verstappen. Although I feel his race engineer should share the blame for ruining Ocon's race, he should have ordered his driver to simply let that one go.

But this year, Max was acting with much more maturity. And up to Silverstone he really was doing just fine.
He has not been acting with much maturity at all, he just had the benefit of a car he didn't need to push, and now that he has to he has returned to past form.
Completely disagree. For this to be true the Red Bull should have been miles better than the Mercedes during the early stages of the season. But there is no evidence to support that claim. Verstappen has been outstanding and has been pushing it like hell all year. This has been the only major incident he was predominantly to blame for this entire season.

Yeboah24
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:09 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Yeboah24 »

Palmers analysis is up on youtube, best ive seen

IDFD
Posts: 438
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2021 5:14 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by IDFD »

StanB123 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:56 pm
Rockie wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:03 pm
Fiki wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:39 pm
MistaVega23 wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:47 pm
We've all seen how hot-headed Verstappen can be - Brazil 2018 being a prime example.

Just because he couldn't bear the thought of a 'slower car' unlapping himself he chose to race Ocon, and lost a win as a result.

The boy just doesn't learn.
That action in Brazil was sheer stupidity, and it was one of those actions for which I remained very critical of Verstappen. Although I feel his race engineer should share the blame for ruining Ocon's race, he should have ordered his driver to simply let that one go.

But this year, Max was acting with much more maturity. And up to Silverstone he really was doing just fine.
He has not been acting with much maturity at all, he just had the benefit of a car he didn't need to push, and now that he has to he has returned to past form.
Completely disagree. For this to be true the Red Bull should have been miles better than the Mercedes during the early stages of the season. But there is no evidence to support that claim. Verstappen has been outstanding and has been pushing it like hell all year. This has been the only major incident he was predominantly to blame for this entire season.
There is no evidence to support the claim you're less likely to be hot headed if you're in the best car and driving away from everyone and nothing is going wrong?

This is the first time all season Max has been involved in a race where his team have got something wrong. All the evidence is there to support he's still that hot headed guy.

There's also only been one incident because Lewis has taken avoiding action numerous times. Silverstone for instance in the opening corners before their collision.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Johnson »

Verstappen vs Ricciardo at the sprint start https://youtu.be/tr8I3jSKKFo

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 4473
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Covalent wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:28 pm
Lewis when they first trialled the halo:
“Please no! This is the worst looking mod in Formula 1 history. I appreciate the quest for safety but this is formula 1, and the way it is now is perfectly fine.”
8)
That was a universal opinion by the drivers and I seem to remember Hamilton being one of the first to change his mind. He hasn't suddenly changed it because it saved his life in this race.

Pest44
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Pest44 »

Covalent wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:28 pm
Lewis when they first trialled the halo:
“Please no! This is the worst looking mod in Formula 1 history. I appreciate the quest for safety but this is formula 1, and the way it is now is perfectly fine.”
8)
You’re really highlighting your bias by posting that quote.

User avatar
Covalent
Posts: 10405
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Covalent »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:14 am
Covalent wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:28 pm
Lewis when they first trialled the halo:
“Please no! This is the worst looking mod in Formula 1 history. I appreciate the quest for safety but this is formula 1, and the way it is now is perfectly fine.”
8)
That was a universal opinion by the drivers and I seem to remember Hamilton being one of the first to change his mind. He hasn't suddenly changed it because it saved his life in this race.
I'm not suggesting he's changed his mind after the Monza incident, just highlighting the irony that the thing he initially opposed might have eventually saved his life.
Pest44 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:38 am
Covalent wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:28 pm
Lewis when they first trialled the halo:
“Please no! This is the worst looking mod in Formula 1 history. I appreciate the quest for safety but this is formula 1, and the way it is now is perfectly fine.”
8)
You’re really highlighting your bias by posting that quote.
Well thank you for your valuable input, I must remember not to post quotes I find interesting in the future lest it highlights my bias.

Pest44
Posts: 400
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:42 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Pest44 »

Pest44 wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 5:38 am
Covalent] wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:28 pm
Lewis when they first trialled the halo:
“Please no! This is the worst looking mod in Formula 1 history. I appreciate the quest for safety but this is formula 1, and the way it is now is perfectly fine.”
8)
You’re really highlighting your bias by posting that quote.
“Covalent wrote: Well thank you for your valuable input, I must remember not to post quotes I find interesting in the future lest it highlights my bias.

Well if you’d done a bit a research you’d find that a couple of months after that quote Hamilton changed his mind on the halo after seeing the safety benefits and was pro halo before it was introduced.

Also I don’t remember anyone calling out Grosjean after his Bahrain accident. Grosjean was always anti halo even after it was introduced and until the point of his accident until it saved his life. Yet can’t remember people quoting Grosjean being anti halo.

So yes your post was very illuminating on your bias

User avatar
Alienturnedhuman
Posts: 4473
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm

Re: Hamilton/Verstappen Italian GP 2021 Collision Discussion / Poll

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:32 am
Verstappen vs Ricciardo at the sprint start https://youtu.be/tr8I3jSKKFo
The most interesting part of that is that Max was up against a non title challenger. If he thought he was not the one entitled to the track position, he would have yielded as crashing to Ricciardo in a racing incident was far worse than losing a place to him.

Post Reply