Is Ricciardo done?

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mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:17 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.
Are you not forgetting this year, Max and Perez?
They haven't spent a year in a championship contending car yet.
You think this years Red Bull will ever be described as not being a championship contending car?
I'm sure it will but it hasn't been yet.

Rockie
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Rockie »

When you take Vettel out of the equation if we go with the he's not top 10, Ricciardo has done nothing significant in F1 to be considered at the level most are putting him.

FrogInARaceCar
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by FrogInARaceCar »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:12 pm
When you take Vettel out of the equation if we go with the he's not top 10, Ricciardo has done nothing significant in F1 to be considered at the level most are putting him.
He ran Max Verstappen pretty close over 3 years. There are a bunch of arguments to be had over exactly how to score that head-to-head what with Max's young age and the cirumstances at Red Bull in that period, but if you consider Verstappen an elite driver, then it's a strong sign for Danny Ric that it's a close comparison.

pendulumeffect
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pendulumeffect »

There is probably only one chance every 4-5 years to get into a championship winning car now as teams get so dominant and you have to play your cards right with sponsors and management and be incredibly lucky.

Ricciardo has maybe one chance left to succeed or move to another team. If he can find some form and level with Norris next year he might just get some luck with the new regulations suiting him or otherwise I think we have seen the best he has to offer as new faces are starting to upstage the elder drivers.

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Invade
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Invade »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:28 pm
Invade wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:58 pm
IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:19 pm
Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.
Charles still makes too many mistakes for most to consider him an elite driver. His speed is there though. It'll be interesting to see how close Sainz is to him next year once he's properly settled in to Ferrari.

For me personally, Sainz, is still the hidden diamond of F1.
What is hidden about him, exactly.
He showed well against Verstappen and the internal Red Bull politics did not phase him.

He beat Lando Norris twice (the same Norris who is beating Ricciardo).

He is showing very well against "Top 3" Charles Leclerc. Some misfortune has gone his way they are very closely matched even if Sainz's ultimate speed is not the same as Leclerc's, his racecraft and stay-out-trouble consistency will see him do well.

I believe Leclerc has his hands full and will lose out to Sainz.

Just my 2 cents. You don't have to get upset over an opinon.
The post was good until your last statement, which is pretty funny. I think we're relaxed here (at least I am). This is a discussion board, after all.

But nah, I don't expect Sainz to actually end up besting Leclerc in the long run.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Exediron »

Sainz is close enough to Leclerc that he could make things interesting if Ferrari builds a WDC-capable car, but I wouldn't say he's any closer than Rosberg was to Hamilton or Ricciardo to Verstappen.

What's impressive is that it's his first year in the team. If he's not fully comfortable with the operation yet (and most drivers are not in their first year) he could very well start to cause problems for Leclerc in 2022 when it's a new car for them both to adjust to.
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pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm


When assessing his whole career I'm not sure how much of a factor a handful of races are?

Kubica isn't being punished here. I'm not saying Ricciardo is better. He just doesn't qualify in that category.

I'm assuming the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen will get a championship contending car at some point. Looks like Verstappen already has. Norris and Russell probably will as well although right now they'd feature a lot lower in any greatest of all time list than Ricciardo. Not saying they aren't better though.
Well presently it's 10 races and counting for Ricciardo, in respect to Kubica I was being pressured by another forumer to come up with a name and I instantly thought of Kubica but I also put in the caveat that he might have ended up in such a car if his career had not been cut short, he only had 4 years in the sport.

Then of course you countered that and my response was Kubica's car really any quicker than cars that Ricciardo had, I'm seeing all this as that Ricciardo deserves a better car than he's had thus far but Kubica didn't because he was able to achieve more than Ricciardo did with what he was given as in he was able to challenge for a title.

If we're looking to perceive Ricciardo as not being given fair chance of a title challenge then I believe Kubica wasn't given a fair chance either and is it fair he gets excluded because he over delivered in 2008, the greatest driver to have never challenged for a title I think kind of over eggs how good we want to perceive Ricciardo to be.

All of this can well be true and Ricciardo can be the best driver never to race a championship contending car.

Yeah peak Kubica is probably as good as peak Ricciardo. Just happens to be the case that Kubica doesn't qualify in this particular category. Doesn't even mean Kubica got a "fair chance". I've not claimed that.

You seem to be conflating an awful lot that I've not actually said. Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.

Excluding current drivers who is the best driver in your opinion to never take a championship to the penultimate round?
The car itself was never capable, in such a car this year Kubica would never get a sniff at the title, surely we're making a case for Ricciado being the greatest driver never having being given a fair chance of the title, I don't believe Kubica was ever given fair chance.

For the rest I go back to my original post that F1 has been around for 70 years, I've not been alive for 70 years so ultimately I don't know. In regards to Ricciardo you seem to not realise how much his stock has dropped unless he can recover that then it perhaps brings more drivers into the mix.
No. That isn't the case I'm making at all. I'm being quite specific. I'm saying Ricciardo is the greatest driver to never drive a championship contending car. That's it.
Ok then seeing as he's still competing and it might still happen for him to meet your specific definition, is he greater than Max, Leclerc, Norris or Russell?
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pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:17 pm


In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.
Are you not forgetting this year, Max and Perez?
They haven't spent a year in a championship contending car yet.
You think this years Red Bull will ever be described as not being a championship contending car?
I'm sure it will but it hasn't been yet.
You're early definition was a driver leading the WDC, Max has lead far longer than Kubica ever did.
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BMWSauber84
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Fate can be a funny thing. If Max Verstappen had never laced up a pair of driving boots, then Daniel Ricciardo might still be at Red Bull, widely regarded as an absolute top tier talent that has just never quite had the equipment capable of beating Hamilton and Mercedes.

When a driver is struggling we all tend to fall into the 'static driver performance ' fallacy and some start analysing their career with revisionism running rampant.

"Sure he beat Vettel, but was Vettel ever really that good"?

"He got outpointed by perennial midfielder Kvyat in 2015, was he a flash in the pan?"

"He didn't exactly thrash Hulkenberg did he?"

"Sure he beat Ocon, but that guy got beaten by Perez and is currently getting schooled by a 40 year old".

I'm not saying I agree with those statements (all based on genuine points I have seen made across various mediums), but it shows how easy it is with almost any driver to selectively pick apart their careers.

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Mort Canard
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Mort Canard »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:45 pm
Fate can be a funny thing. If Max Verstappen had never laced up a pair of driving boots, then Daniel Ricciardo might still be at Red Bull, widely regarded as an absolute top tier talent that has just never quite had the equipment capable of beating Hamilton and Mercedes.

When a driver is struggling we all tend to fall into the 'static driver performance ' fallacy and some start analysing their career with revisionism running rampant.

"Sure he beat Vettel, but was Vettel ever really that good"?

"He got outpointed by perennial midfielder Kvyat in 2015, was he a flash in the pan?"

"He didn't exactly thrash Hulkenberg did he?"

"Sure he beat Ocon, but that guy got beaten by Perez and is currently getting schooled by a 40 year old".

I'm not saying I agree with those statements (all based on genuine points I have seen made across various mediums), but it shows how easy it is with almost any driver to selectively pick apart their careers.
I have to wonder what would have happened if RBR had made a car tailored to Daniel's driving style instead of Max's. Certainly Pierre Gasly, Alex Albon, and now Sergio Perez have all had trouble coming to terms with the cars made for Max.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:04 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:45 pm
Fate can be a funny thing. If Max Verstappen had never laced up a pair of driving boots, then Daniel Ricciardo might still be at Red Bull, widely regarded as an absolute top tier talent that has just never quite had the equipment capable of beating Hamilton and Mercedes.

When a driver is struggling we all tend to fall into the 'static driver performance ' fallacy and some start analysing their career with revisionism running rampant.

"Sure he beat Vettel, but was Vettel ever really that good"?

"He got outpointed by perennial midfielder Kvyat in 2015, was he a flash in the pan?"

"He didn't exactly thrash Hulkenberg did he?"

"Sure he beat Ocon, but that guy got beaten by Perez and is currently getting schooled by a 40 year old".

I'm not saying I agree with those statements (all based on genuine points I have seen made across various mediums), but it shows how easy it is with almost any driver to selectively pick apart their careers.
I have to wonder what would have happened if RBR had made a car tailored to Daniel's driving style instead of Max's. Certainly Pierre Gasly, Alex Albon, and now Sergio Perez have all had trouble coming to terms with the cars made for Max.
The car isn't "made for Max". Adrian Newey himself has debunked that. He's said it's hard enough to create a fast car without trying to tailor it to a specific driver. They've just designed the fastest car they can. Verstappen's driving style isn't even extreme. He's just super adaptable.

pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:21 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:04 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:45 pm
Fate can be a funny thing. If Max Verstappen had never laced up a pair of driving boots, then Daniel Ricciardo might still be at Red Bull, widely regarded as an absolute top tier talent that has just never quite had the equipment capable of beating Hamilton and Mercedes.

When a driver is struggling we all tend to fall into the 'static driver performance ' fallacy and some start analysing their career with revisionism running rampant.

"Sure he beat Vettel, but was Vettel ever really that good"?

"He got outpointed by perennial midfielder Kvyat in 2015, was he a flash in the pan?"

"He didn't exactly thrash Hulkenberg did he?"

"Sure he beat Ocon, but that guy got beaten by Perez and is currently getting schooled by a 40 year old".

I'm not saying I agree with those statements (all based on genuine points I have seen made across various mediums), but it shows how easy it is with almost any driver to selectively pick apart their careers.
I have to wonder what would have happened if RBR had made a car tailored to Daniel's driving style instead of Max's. Certainly Pierre Gasly, Alex Albon, and now Sergio Perez have all had trouble coming to terms with the cars made for Max.
The car isn't "made for Max". Adrian Newey himself has debunked that. He's said it's hard enough to create a fast car without trying to tailor it to a specific driver. They've just designed the fastest car they can. Verstappen's driving style isn't even extreme. He's just super adaptable.
This is probably what distinguishes elite drivers from merely very good drivers, adaptability, elite drivers never suffer with poor performance were they seem to be completely lost, very good drivers can have dips in performance when cars go outside their comfort zone, Ricciardo has shown this season more than anything that he's not elite, like we saw from Vettel in 2014 and last year.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:16 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:29 pm

Well presently it's 10 races and counting for Ricciardo, in respect to Kubica I was being pressured by another forumer to come up with a name and I instantly thought of Kubica but I also put in the caveat that he might have ended up in such a car if his career had not been cut short, he only had 4 years in the sport.

Then of course you countered that and my response was Kubica's car really any quicker than cars that Ricciardo had, I'm seeing all this as that Ricciardo deserves a better car than he's had thus far but Kubica didn't because he was able to achieve more than Ricciardo did with what he was given as in he was able to challenge for a title.

If we're looking to perceive Ricciardo as not being given fair chance of a title challenge then I believe Kubica wasn't given a fair chance either and is it fair he gets excluded because he over delivered in 2008, the greatest driver to have never challenged for a title I think kind of over eggs how good we want to perceive Ricciardo to be.

All of this can well be true and Ricciardo can be the best driver never to race a championship contending car.

Yeah peak Kubica is probably as good as peak Ricciardo. Just happens to be the case that Kubica doesn't qualify in this particular category. Doesn't even mean Kubica got a "fair chance". I've not claimed that.

You seem to be conflating an awful lot that I've not actually said. Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.

Excluding current drivers who is the best driver in your opinion to never take a championship to the penultimate round?
The car itself was never capable, in such a car this year Kubica would never get a sniff at the title, surely we're making a case for Ricciado being the greatest driver never having being given a fair chance of the title, I don't believe Kubica was ever given fair chance.

For the rest I go back to my original post that F1 has been around for 70 years, I've not been alive for 70 years so ultimately I don't know. In regards to Ricciardo you seem to not realise how much his stock has dropped unless he can recover that then it perhaps brings more drivers into the mix.
No. That isn't the case I'm making at all. I'm being quite specific. I'm saying Ricciardo is the greatest driver to never drive a championship contending car. That's it.
Ok then seeing as he's still competing and it might still happen for him to meet your specific definition, is he greater than Max, Leclerc, Norris or Russell?
Verstappen no, Leclerc probably and Russell and Norris definitely.

If we are talking "greater" rather than "better".

I'm obviously not including other current driver's. I'm assuming Ricciardo finishes his career without a championship contending car and those others do not.

mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm

Are you not forgetting this year, Max and Perez?
They haven't spent a year in a championship contending car yet.
You think this years Red Bull will ever be described as not being a championship contending car?
I'm sure it will but it hasn't been yet.
You're early definition was a driver leading the WDC, Max has lead far longer than Kubica ever did.
I've literally never made that my definition. So that's just not true.

I don't know why you're digging in here. It looks almost Max will have a season in a championship contending car but the season isn't over yet so he hasn't. He's had a few races. Again, these are actual facts you're arguing against here.

kleefton
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by kleefton »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:21 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:04 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:45 pm
Fate can be a funny thing. If Max Verstappen had never laced up a pair of driving boots, then Daniel Ricciardo might still be at Red Bull, widely regarded as an absolute top tier talent that has just never quite had the equipment capable of beating Hamilton and Mercedes.

When a driver is struggling we all tend to fall into the 'static driver performance ' fallacy and some start analysing their career with revisionism running rampant.

"Sure he beat Vettel, but was Vettel ever really that good"?

"He got outpointed by perennial midfielder Kvyat in 2015, was he a flash in the pan?"

"He didn't exactly thrash Hulkenberg did he?"

"Sure he beat Ocon, but that guy got beaten by Perez and is currently getting schooled by a 40 year old".

I'm not saying I agree with those statements (all based on genuine points I have seen made across various mediums), but it shows how easy it is with almost any driver to selectively pick apart their careers.
I have to wonder what would have happened if RBR had made a car tailored to Daniel's driving style instead of Max's. Certainly Pierre Gasly, Alex Albon, and now Sergio Perez have all had trouble coming to terms with the cars made for Max.
The car isn't "made for Max". Adrian Newey himself has debunked that. He's said it's hard enough to create a fast car without trying to tailor it to a specific driver. They've just designed the fastest car they can. Verstappen's driving style isn't even extreme. He's just super adaptable.
This is probably what distinguishes elite drivers from merely very good drivers, adaptability, elite drivers never suffer with poor performance were they seem to be completely lost, very good drivers can have dips in performance when cars go outside their comfort zone, Ricciardo has shown this season more than anything that he's not elite, like we saw from Vettel in 2014 and last year.
But verstappen has not shown his immense speed in anything other than the Redbull car designed by Newey. Just like vettel has not shown the same speed In anything other than a Redbull car designed by Newey. You can defend verstappen and say that he did not have enough experience when he was at Toro Rossi but fact of the matter is that he has only won in a Redbull car that’s at least arguably designed around him. So to me he has not shown how adaptable he is yet. Like I’ve always said, if he ever leaves the Redbull stable it will be interesting to see if he still looks as dominant compared to his teammates.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

kleefton wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 11:30 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 10:21 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:04 pm
BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:45 pm
Fate can be a funny thing. If Max Verstappen had never laced up a pair of driving boots, then Daniel Ricciardo might still be at Red Bull, widely regarded as an absolute top tier talent that has just never quite had the equipment capable of beating Hamilton and Mercedes.

When a driver is struggling we all tend to fall into the 'static driver performance ' fallacy and some start analysing their career with revisionism running rampant.

"Sure he beat Vettel, but was Vettel ever really that good"?

"He got outpointed by perennial midfielder Kvyat in 2015, was he a flash in the pan?"

"He didn't exactly thrash Hulkenberg did he?"

"Sure he beat Ocon, but that guy got beaten by Perez and is currently getting schooled by a 40 year old".

I'm not saying I agree with those statements (all based on genuine points I have seen made across various mediums), but it shows how easy it is with almost any driver to selectively pick apart their careers.
I have to wonder what would have happened if RBR had made a car tailored to Daniel's driving style instead of Max's. Certainly Pierre Gasly, Alex Albon, and now Sergio Perez have all had trouble coming to terms with the cars made for Max.
The car isn't "made for Max". Adrian Newey himself has debunked that. He's said it's hard enough to create a fast car without trying to tailor it to a specific driver. They've just designed the fastest car they can. Verstappen's driving style isn't even extreme. He's just super adaptable.
This is probably what distinguishes elite drivers from merely very good drivers, adaptability, elite drivers never suffer with poor performance were they seem to be completely lost, very good drivers can have dips in performance when cars go outside their comfort zone, Ricciardo has shown this season more than anything that he's not elite, like we saw from Vettel in 2014 and last year.
But verstappen has not shown his immense speed in anything other than the Redbull car designed by Newey. Just like vettel has not shown the same speed In anything other than a Redbull car designed by Newey. You can defend verstappen and say that he did not have enough experience when he was at Toro Rossi but fact of the matter is that he has only won in a Redbull car that’s at least arguably designed around him. So to me he has not shown how adaptable he is yet. Like I’ve always said, if he ever leaves the Redbull stable it will be interesting to see if he still looks as dominant compared to his teammates.
Verstappen stepped into a new team and won his 1st race for them at just 18 years old and after just two years of racing cars.

He continually thrives in a very tricky Red Bull car. Nobody else has been able to get genuinely race winning pace out of it since 2018.

Newey also says he idea that he is designing the Red Bull around Verstappen is rubbish. He says it's hard enough to design a fast car without considering what characteristics certain drivers want.

Aside from that, did you not see some of the onboards from Verstappen in 2020? Do you really think that's what he wants?

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

kleefton wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
Just like vettel has not shown the same speed In anything other than a Redbull car designed by Newey.
I don't normally defend Vettel but this is totally wrong. He was back to his best from 2017-mid 2018 and showed flashes of brilliance in 2015.

The lengths some people go to trying to deny Verstappen's elite adaptability is insane and his set-up work is exemplary. Some pretty good drivers are failing to deliver in the Red Bull.
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BMWSauber84
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I must admit that I am surprised at how much of a struggle it has been for Ricciardo to adapt. Renault team members had been glowing in their praise for how adaptable he had been throughout 2019 and 2020.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

BMWSauber84 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:17 am
I must admit that I am surprised at how much of a struggle it has been for Ricciardo to adapt. Renault team members had been glowing in their praise for how adaptable he had been throughout 2019 and 2020.
The McLaren is really weird I that you need to apply steering lock while braking to get the car to turn especially in the slow corners. It's very counter-intuitive for a heavy braker like Ricciardo to get used to.

Silverstone's lack of slow corners disguised it last weekend.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:16 am
pokerman wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:35 pm


They haven't spent a year in a championship contending car yet.
You think this years Red Bull will ever be described as not being a championship contending car?
I'm sure it will but it hasn't been yet.
You're early definition was a driver leading the WDC, Max has lead far longer than Kubica ever did.
I've literally never made that my definition. So that's just not true.

I don't know why you're digging in here. It looks almost Max will have a season in a championship contending car but the season isn't over yet so he hasn't. He's had a few races. Again, these are actual facts you're arguing against here.
I guess the bottom line is this greatest tag you want to give Ricciardo, I see nothing great about Ricciardo and the likes of Kubica doesn't get the tag line because he was able to do more in a similar performing car.
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pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:58 am
kleefton wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:31 am
Just like vettel has not shown the same speed In anything other than a Redbull car designed by Newey.
I don't normally defend Vettel but this is totally wrong. He was back to his best from 2017-mid 2018 and showed flashes of brilliance in 2015.

The lengths some people go to trying to deny Verstappen's elite adaptability is insane and his set-up work is exemplary. Some pretty good drivers are failing to deliver in the Red Bull.
I would venture that his best in 2017 and 2018 still was short of what it was believed to be in his Red Bull years 2010-2013.
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schumilegend
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by schumilegend »

Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team

JN23
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by JN23 »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Oh come on, he was spun around on lap one and very likely had significant damage. He hasn’t become a terrible driver all of a sudden.

schumilegend
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by schumilegend »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:43 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Oh come on, he was spun around on lap one and very likely had significant damage. He hasn’t become a terrible driver all of a sudden.

He looks very harmless tbh .. just making up the laps and trying to capture a few points here and there.. he looks same level as Latifi compared to his teammate

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Can't judge him on this race. He likely had major damage.

schumilegend
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by schumilegend »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Can't judge him on this race. He likely had major damage.
He was just spun around.. Definitely least hit of all the cars involved

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Tufty
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Tufty »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Can't judge him on this race. He likely had major damage.
He was just spun around.. Definitely least hit of all the cars involved
Seidl did say both cars were damaged.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:45 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:43 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Oh come on, he was spun around on lap one and very likely had significant damage. He hasn’t become a terrible driver all of a sudden.

He looks very harmless tbh .. just making up the laps and trying to capture a few points here and there.. he looks same level as Latifi compared to his teammate
Then Ricciardo did a pretty good job if he was at Latifi level against his team mate today ;)
i will need to see a replay from a better angle, but I don't think ricciardo did look to have had a hard hit at all. It still was very poor form IMO. But i'll wait to 100% confirm that.

Lord Crc
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Lord Crc »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:19 pm
He was just spun around.. Definitely least hit of all the cars involved
The reason he spun was Leclerk's front end hitting the side of his car, just in front of the rear wheels, shoving Ricciardo's car into a spin. No way he came away from that without damage.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Espo »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Can't judge him on this race. He likely had major damage.
He was just spun around.. Definitely least hit of all the cars involved
Brown said in a tweet that he was driving around a very damaged car. Also, what should Ricciardo do with his attitude? Walk around dejected with a frown on his face because he hasn’t been performing well? He’s got some real work to do to get himself sorted in the car, but I don’t think it’s fair to say he should be sacked or walk away. I think we would all criticize any driver if they just flat out gave up.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by oz_karter »

schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:13 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:42 pm
Ricciardo should be relieved of his duties .. Zero progress all year and his cheeky laughs and smiles are getting old now .. dude needs to step up or surrender his seat .. what an absolute disservice to the team
Can't judge him on this race. He likely had major damage.
He was just spun around.. Definitely least hit of all the cars involved
Untrue. He was hit on both sides.

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Banana Man
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Banana Man »

Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 am
Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
That was that. Bottas ultimately made turn 1 a lottery, just sheer luck where you ended up. Ricciardo very nearly ended up the benefactor.

Even Stroll seemed to unleash his own carnage as a result of trying to avoid the initial carnage.

schumilegend
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by schumilegend »

Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 am
Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
There is no way Ricciardo would have won..He is simply too slow..Easily the slowest of the top 10 drivers in the top cars right now

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 am
Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
Definitely would've had a strong shot at a podium, given he would've been running in/around Ocon and Vettel. There is a video doing the rounds after he'd parked up at the end of the race, and his body language can only be described as utterly dejected. I'm not sure if that was because he'd had to endure another tough afternoon or because he knew what might have been, but either way it's a little difficult to see, knowing how positive and upbeat he has been in like, 95% of his F1 career to date.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Banana Man »

schumilegend wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:26 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 am
Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
There is no way Ricciardo would have won..He is simply too slow..Easily the slowest of the top 10 drivers in the top cars right now
So you are certain he would have been massively outpaced by Ocon, to the point of being able to overtake, in a healthy car? Even though Hamilton couldn’t get by him driving a damaged car early on in the race.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by schumilegend »

Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:13 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:26 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 am
Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
There is no way Ricciardo would have won..He is simply too slow..Easily the slowest of the top 10 drivers in the top cars right now
So you are certain he would have been massively outpaced by Ocon, to the point of being able to overtake, in a healthy car? Even though Hamilton couldn’t get by him driving a damaged car early on in the race.
Yes absolutely .. Ricciardo in the Mclaren is performing around the same level as Latifi/Giovanazzi.. He definitely would be overtaken either in the pits or on track

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Exediron »

schumilegend wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 12:54 am
Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:13 pm
schumilegend wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:26 pm
Banana Man wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 9:51 am
Fine margins. If he'd been one metre wider at turn one, he'd have won yesterday.
There is no way Ricciardo would have won..He is simply too slow..Easily the slowest of the top 10 drivers in the top cars right now
So you are certain he would have been massively outpaced by Ocon, to the point of being able to overtake, in a healthy car? Even though Hamilton couldn’t get by him driving a damaged car early on in the race.
Yes absolutely .. Ricciardo in the Mclaren is performing around the same level as Latifi/Giovanazzi.. He definitely would be overtaken either in the pits or on track
I'm just going to point out that Latifi didn't get overtaken. Before he pitted, he successfully held everyone behind him, contributing massively to the lead Ocon and Vettel were able to amass.

So in fact, considering he has a much quicker car, Ricciardo would need to be performing at a level sizably below Latifi to get overtaken.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Andy_S »

When the relative performances of two drivers are a long way apart, the team must consider at least these two possible reasons:

1. The lead driver is superhuman.
2. The other driver is not exploiting the potential of the car.

If Hamilton and Norris are superhuman, then former team mates who were equal to them, i.e. Button, Rosberg and Sainz, must also have been. If I were the boss of Mercedes or McLaren, I would probably think option 2 is the more likely and fire the underperformers.

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Andy_S
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Andy_S »

Anyway, McLaren won't need to fire Danny Ricc because when he doesn't win he throws a tantrum and leaves. I personally think he's very overrated, mainly by himself.

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