Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

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Who was at fault in the first lap incident?

Hamilton
47
41%
Verstappen
15
13%
Racing incident
54
47%
 
Total votes: 116

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Johnson
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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Johnson »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 12:09 pm
Johnson wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 11:33 am
Mercedes themselves report from the GPS data that Verstappen was going 1kmph faster into Corpse than his fastest lap in qualifying, despite running 100kg of fuel and on cold and harder tyres and on a tighter line. So it seems neither would make the corner.
Verstappen was taking a wider line than normal. When you take a wider line you can carry more speed. I don't think this is any kind of "gotcha".
I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. Verstappen turned in closer to the middle of the track, the line he took in qualifying was from the far left. He also turned in having turned to the left, making it even tighter.

Pause the video at 3 seconds and you will see Leclerc is on the normal line and much further to the left than Max. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4ongTQ2N0Y

Also evident from Hamiltons qualifying lap - https://youtu.be/I_2aJhmpInY?t=57

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Siao7 »

It is obviously possible that Verstappen wouldn't make the corner, but he didn't get the chance. It also feels irrelevant at the moment, not sure what does that prove.

I think they just pushed each other to a game of chicken with late braking and this was the result. They hopefully learned something and will not repeat it in this race. Or they will!

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 2:43 am
Exediron wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 10:11 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 9:48 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:46 pm
What Hamilton did to Rosberg is similar to what Max did to Hamilton in Imola, what Max did to Leclerc was different, what's interesting is I believe that Rosberg got penalised twice on that same corner for doing the same thing, once with Hamilton and then again with Max, Max does it and it's nothing to see here, also what happened to making the apex which is the crux of Hamilton's penalty against Max..
What exactly is the difference between what Verstappen did to Leclerc in Austria, and what Hamilton did to Rosberg at USA 2015?
Well, the obvious difference is that Verstappen physically hit Leclerc to push him off track, whereas Hamilton just bullied Rosberg. It also wasn't turn one of lap one, where we know the stewards tend to be more lenient.

But both were crap moves.
Hamilton actually did hit Rosberg off circuit, they touched wheels, and in slippery (wet) conditions one touch is enough to send a driver wide.

I always find it very amusing when Hamilton fans show such moral outrage at Verstappen’s driving, when he learned all his dirty tricks from Hamilton.
This has to be the biggest crock of manure I’ve seen on here! 😂

Just last year people were praising Hamilton for being one of the leanest drivers ever. I realize he’s had moments where he’s pushed the envelope and taken things too far, but those moments were few and far in between.

What I will say I never liked that he did was force drivers way wide in order to maintain position, which is something almost every driver outside of Raikkonen has done many times. And I’ve always said I don’t like it from anyone. Rosberg took that move to an extreme that was centered around its intent and making the corner was of little concern to him so long as he pushed Hamilton wide, and it ended up biting him in his hind quarters.

I think forcing someone around the outside is fair play so long as the intent is to make things more difficult rather than near impossible. We’ve seen plenty of both but we do t need the latter and that goes for every driver, including Hamilton, though he’s not done so in quite some time, as far as I can recall.

And honest loss of grip doesn’t count as such, as that is a mere consequence of carrying a touch too much speed and is generally unintentional. I mean the purposeful squeezing to the edge of the track and beyond.

Don’t go making disparaging claims like this to suit your own agenda.
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dsf1
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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by dsf1 »

Never known an individual or team embarrass themselves so much over a racing incident before. Just sad for the sport really.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/christian ... statement/

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Badgeronimous
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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Badgeronimous »

Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Banana Man »

Whatever you think of the actual incident, I can’t agree with the penalty. It’s neither one thing nor the other, like someone being accused of murder and the judge saying, "I don’t know, maybe 200 hours community service."

If Hamilton was at fault, he should have had a ten seconds stop go. If not, it should have been nothing. The ten second time penalty was just a cop out which satisfied nobody.
I remember when this website was all fields.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by mikeyg123 »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm
Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.
I think you can't look at the incident in isolation. Hamilton has taken out one of their cars and received minor penalties 3 times now in recent history. They're bound to be getting frustrated.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Badgeronimous »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:11 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm
Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.
I think you can't look at the incident in isolation. Hamilton has taken out one of their cars and received minor penalties 3 times now in recent history. They're bound to be getting frustrated.
Each in isolation though, the penalty was probably about right.

Hamilton is just lucky he probably comes off better more often than not, certainly in the hybrid era.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by IDFD »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:11 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm
Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.
I think you can't look at the incident in isolation. Hamilton has taken out one of their cars and received minor penalties 3 times now in recent history. They're bound to be getting frustrated.
Oh come on Red Bull couldn't give two craps about Albon. Hence why he's been dropped like they do too most of their second drivers without a second chance.

They've done a magnificent job of turning the neutrals against them. In fact I've even seen Hamilton haters turning on Red Bull such is the embarrassment they've caused.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by mikeyg123 »

IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:11 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm
Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.
I think you can't look at the incident in isolation. Hamilton has taken out one of their cars and received minor penalties 3 times now in recent history. They're bound to be getting frustrated.
Oh come on Red Bull couldn't give two craps about Albon. Hence why he's been dropped like they do too most of their second drivers without a second chance.

They've done a magnificent job of turning the neutrals against them. In fact I've even seen Hamilton haters turning on Red Bull such is the embarrassment they've caused.
They might not care about Albon. I'm sure they care about losing a win at their home GP.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by KingVoid »

IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:11 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm
Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.
I think you can't look at the incident in isolation. Hamilton has taken out one of their cars and received minor penalties 3 times now in recent history. They're bound to be getting frustrated.
Oh come on Red Bull couldn't give two craps about Albon. Hence why he's been dropped like they do too most of their second drivers without a second chance.

They've done a magnificent job of turning the neutrals against them. In fact I've even seen Hamilton haters turning on Red Bull such is the embarrassment they've caused.
Very few people truly care about teams. If Hamilton and Verstappen switched teams for next season, within the blink of an eye every Red Bull fan would become a Mercedes fan, and every Mercedes fan would become a Red Bull fan.

I would go one step further and argue that the only team with a truly large fanbase is Ferrari, every other team’s fanbase is negligible and 98% only support them because of the driver.

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by KingVoid »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:38 pm
This has to be the biggest crock of manure I’ve seen on here! 😂

Just last year people were praising Hamilton for being one of the leanest drivers ever. I realize he’s had moments where he’s pushed the envelope and taken things too far, but those moments were few and far in between.
Bahrain 2014, Hungary 2014, USA 2014, Japan 2015, USA 2015, Canada 2016.

That’s surprisingly often for something that allegedly happens far and few in between.

Hamilton was unbelievably dirty when battling Rosberg and at no point did he ever even contemplate the concept of clean and fair racing.

IDFD
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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by IDFD »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:06 pm
IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:11 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:41 pm
Yeah.

The incident was a racing incident where the blame was tilted towards Hamilton - absolutely nothing more.

Red Bull are whining far too much - they've been unlucky that them and their driver came off far worse but..... it is Formula 1 - these things will inevitably happen, next time it might be them that benefits.

They've managed to turn a mood of general sympathy towards them into contempt.
I think you can't look at the incident in isolation. Hamilton has taken out one of their cars and received minor penalties 3 times now in recent history. They're bound to be getting frustrated.
Oh come on Red Bull couldn't give two craps about Albon. Hence why he's been dropped like they do too most of their second drivers without a second chance.

They've done a magnificent job of turning the neutrals against them. In fact I've even seen Hamilton haters turning on Red Bull such is the embarrassment they've caused.
Very few people truly care about teams. If Hamilton and Verstappen switched teams for next season, within the blink of an eye every Red Bull fan would become a Mercedes fan, and every Mercedes fan would become a Red Bull fan.

I would go one step further and argue that the only team with a truly large fanbase is Ferrari, every other team’s fanbase is negligible and 98% only support them because of the driver.
Couldn't disagree with the last paragraph of this more.

My main interest in Formula 1 is McLaren. It used to be McLaren and Force India but I've really fallen out of love with the current outfit that was Force India. Drivers come second. And I speak to many people that are McLaren first drivers second. After the team there are plenty of drivers I like that I want to see do well. Perez, Riciardo, Leclerc, Sainz, Alonso, Gasly and now Norris. (And obviously Hamilton was the ultimate McLaren golden boy. I was furious at him for leaving at first but want to see him extend the records as far as possible). I want to like Verstappen and Russell because of their ability but something about them just doesn't grab me and I can't stand Bottas.

I agree that teams like Redbull and Merc don't have too many supporters but McLaren are definitely a team people grow up supporting away from the drivers. I'd also say Williams and the teams formerly known as Force India and Sauber fall in to that category too. Red Bull and Merc are just two highly unlikable teams. Merc because of their domination and Red Bull because of their behaviour stemming back to the days of Vettel/Webber.

Red Bull are a team I really struggle to get on board with. Being a Ric fan it was difficult because you wanted him to do well but not the team. But him joining up with McLaren was amazing...just a shame the way the season is going so far. But I have high hopes for next season and think they've got a tremendous line up once Ric gets up to speed.

But for example if Verstappen was to join McLaren then I'd be wanting him to set the world alight.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Exediron »

McLaren fan here, and I agree with the above. I'm a team-first fan, and I know plenty of others who are as well -- quite a few of them being fellow Macca lovers, so maybe we're #2 after Ferrari!

The current top teams, Red Bull and Mercedes, are among the newest and least popular teams in the sport. Neither has had any significant down time without success to bleed off fair weather fans, and they don't have the sort of history where a lot of people have seen drivers come and go but continued to love the team.

I think we see more driver-first fans for those teams than we do for more 'Grande' teams like Ferrari, McLaren, and Williams (I know, I know, but they were great once), or the plucky underdogs like Force India and Minardi (both gone, but they live on after a fashion).
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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by Yeboah24 »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:08 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:38 pm
This has to be the biggest crock of manure I’ve seen on here! 😂

Just last year people were praising Hamilton for being one of the leanest drivers ever. I realize he’s had moments where he’s pushed the envelope and taken things too far, but those moments were few and far in between.
Bahrain 2014, Hungary 2014, USA 2014, Japan 2015, USA 2015, Canada 2016.

That’s surprisingly often for something that allegedly happens far and few in between.

Hamilton was unbelievably dirty when battling Rosberg and at no point did he ever even contemplate the concept of clean and fair racing.
6 races out of how many?

Unbelieveably dirty?

Objectivity is a fine thing you know

Hamilton did his fair shair of pushing out wide on exit during that period. Bahrain strikes me as being a move or we will contact situation.

If hamilton is unbelievably dirty then what is max, hes done the same pushing cars off on exit and forcing bail outs. He does block moves last second on straights also which imo is dangerous as hell

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by F1Tyrant »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:08 pm
Hamilton was unbelievably dirty when battling Rosberg and at no point did he ever even contemplate the concept of clean and fair racing.
Dirty isn't the right word, Hamilton was the master to toeing the line. A lot of his moves were dark grey but rarely were legitimate breaches of the rules.

The irony still being that Verstappen has had a better mastery of the shades of grey this season so far in battle with Hamilton himself.
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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by A_Game_A_Day »

Yeboah24 wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:30 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:08 pm
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 3:38 pm
This has to be the biggest crock of manure I’ve seen on here! 😂

Just last year people were praising Hamilton for being one of the leanest drivers ever. I realize he’s had moments where he’s pushed the envelope and taken things too far, but those moments were few and far in between.
Bahrain 2014, Hungary 2014, USA 2014, Japan 2015, USA 2015, Canada 2016.

That’s surprisingly often for something that allegedly happens far and few in between.

Hamilton was unbelievably dirty when battling Rosberg and at no point did he ever even contemplate the concept of clean and fair racing.
6 races out of how many?

Unbelieveably dirty?

Objectivity is a fine thing you know

Hamilton did his fair shair of pushing out wide on exit during that period. Bahrain strikes me as being a move or we will contact situation.

If hamilton is unbelievably dirty then what is max, hes done the same pushing cars off on exit and forcing bail outs. He does block moves last second on straights also which imo is dangerous as hell
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate. And nothing in the last five years! :lol:

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by IDFD »

Enjoyed Max response when asked about it again after qualy. Basically just stop talking about it we're racers and we'll continue to race hard but fair no more questions on it.

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by KingVoid »

A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate.
Jumping into a conversation without understanding the content is rarely a smart decision. Verstappen did not get any kind of penalty for his driving at Imola and Spain this year, so why are so many Hamilton fans complaining about his driving tactics on those occasions?
And nothing in the last five years! :lol:
Again, I was talking specifically about Hamilton vs Rosberg, it would be difficult to dig up an example more recent than five years because Rosberg himself retired five years ago.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by BMWSauber84 »

Mclaren have really rejuvenated their support in recent years and do seem to be growing in that regard. They've always had a solid core support being a big British team (I know they were originally created by a New Zealander, but they have become an adopted British outfit), but there were times in Rob Dennis's long and illustrious era that they weren't always well liked.

Norris is a very popular driver with younger fans especially, he and Sainz were a well liked pairing, and although Sainz has gone, he has been replaced by a real fan favourite in Ricciardo. They just seem like a team on the up on and off the track.

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by IDFD »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:53 pm
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate.
Jumping into a conversation without understanding the content is rarely a smart decision. Verstappen did not get any kind of penalty for his driving at Imola and Spain this year, so why are so many Hamilton fans complaining about his driving tactics on those occasions?
And nothing in the last five years! :lol:
Again, I was talking specifically about Hamilton vs Rosberg, it would be difficult to dig up an example more recent than five years because Rosberg himself retired five years ago.
He doesn't get a penalty though because there's no contact because Lewis gives him a wide berth. I know you won't grasp that idea. But Max gets given extra space by drivers that don't trust his aggression levels. That extra space means there is less likely to be contact (because of the other driver not Max). And therefore no penalty.

But it's a waste of time if you don't even believe Max was out of order with his move on Leclerc. You won't see or hear anything against him.

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by A_Game_A_Day »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:53 pm
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate.
Jumping into a conversation without understanding the content is rarely a smart decision. Verstappen did not get any kind of penalty for his driving at Imola and Spain this year, so why are so many Hamilton fans complaining about his driving tactics on those occasions?
And nothing in the last five years! :lol:
Again, I was talking specifically about Hamilton vs Rosberg, it would be difficult to dig up an example more recent than five years because Rosberg himself retired five years ago.
I understand plenty, thanks.

Your point seems to be that Verstappen leant dirty tricks from Hamilton vs. Rosberg in a short period at the start of his F1 career? Conveniently ignoring the initial impressions he created on arrival before he'd had time to 'learn', and what he might have learnt, developed, or maintained in the 5 years since Rosberg retired.

PS. The answer to your question is: hypocrisy.

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by Fiki »

IDFD wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:44 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:53 pm
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate.
Jumping into a conversation without understanding the content is rarely a smart decision. Verstappen did not get any kind of penalty for his driving at Imola and Spain this year, so why are so many Hamilton fans complaining about his driving tactics on those occasions?
And nothing in the last five years! :lol:
Again, I was talking specifically about Hamilton vs Rosberg, it would be difficult to dig up an example more recent than five years because Rosberg himself retired five years ago.
He doesn't get a penalty though because there's no contact because Lewis gives him a wide berth. I know you won't grasp that idea. But Max gets given extra space by drivers that don't trust his aggression levels. That extra space means there is less likely to be contact (because of the other driver not Max). And therefore no penalty.

But it's a waste of time if you don't even believe Max was out of order with his move on Leclerc. You won't see or hear anything against him.
The real problem is that those who make and adapt the rules, have over the past few years condoned intimidatory tactics, and even promoted them when they gave in to calls "to let them race". It may or may not be that this comes after major improvements in passive safety (e.g. HANS and HALO).
But if we turn a blind eye to the further decline of sportsmanship for the sake of income, then we shouldn't be surprised if somebody gets seriously hurt one of these days.
The rivalry between Rosberg and Hamilton turned toxic, hopefully there will be brains enough on both sides of the current rivalry to prevent this one from ending up worse.
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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by KingVoid »

A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:09 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:53 pm
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate.
Jumping into a conversation without understanding the content is rarely a smart decision. Verstappen did not get any kind of penalty for his driving at Imola and Spain this year, so why are so many Hamilton fans complaining about his driving tactics on those occasions?
And nothing in the last five years! :lol:
Again, I was talking specifically about Hamilton vs Rosberg, it would be difficult to dig up an example more recent than five years because Rosberg himself retired five years ago.
I understand plenty, thanks.

Your point seems to be that Verstappen leant dirty tricks from Hamilton vs. Rosberg in a short period at the start of his F1 career? Conveniently ignoring the initial impressions he created on arrival before he'd had time to 'learn', and what he might have learnt, developed, or maintained in the 5 years since Rosberg retired.

PS. The answer to your question is: hypocrisy.
It was a figure of speech. Verstappen didn’t literally watch Hamilton drive and take notes. The point I am making is that Hamilton has been known for pushing drivers on the outside off the track for as long as I can remember, and has been doing it before Verstappen even arrived into the sport.

If you want to go way back, look at Hockenheim 2008 on Massa.

For that reason alone, Hamilton fans complaining about Verstappen’s aggressive moves at the start of Imola and Spain have no leg to stand on.

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Re: Forum verdict on the Hamilton/Verstappen collision

Post by KingVoid »

IDFD wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 8:44 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 7:53 pm
A_Game_A_Day wrote:
Sat Jul 31, 2021 12:58 pm
Including examples where there was no contact or cause for stewards to investigate.
Jumping into a conversation without understanding the content is rarely a smart decision. Verstappen did not get any kind of penalty for his driving at Imola and Spain this year, so why are so many Hamilton fans complaining about his driving tactics on those occasions?
And nothing in the last five years! :lol:
Again, I was talking specifically about Hamilton vs Rosberg, it would be difficult to dig up an example more recent than five years because Rosberg himself retired five years ago.
He doesn't get a penalty though because there's no contact because Lewis gives him a wide berth. I know you won't grasp that idea. But Max gets given extra space by drivers that don't trust his aggression levels. That extra space means there is less likely to be contact (because of the other driver not Max). And therefore no penalty.

But it's a waste of time if you don't even believe Max was out of order with his move on Leclerc. You won't see or hear anything against him.
I agree that Max’s move against Leclerc was naughty, but was it really any worse than Hamilton on Rosberg at USA 2015 and Canada 2016 at the start? On both occasions, Hamilton made wheel to wheel contact with Rosberg, sent him wide, and Rosberg tumbled down the field while Hamilton did not get a penalty.

I have nothing against criticism of Verstappen’s racing technique, I’m just not buying the claims that Hamilton is any cleaner.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Clarky »

Interesting: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -by-booing

Someone apparently fired.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by oz_karter »

Clarky wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:01 am
Interesting: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -by-booing

Someone apparently fired.
Disagree with Lewis here. Booing has always happened in all sports. In this case fans were unhappy about his incident at the previous race with Max. That's not unreasonable. They were probably also not that impressed by the celebrations by Lewis and Mercedes at the end. Also not unreasonable. (If you're a fan of Lewis, try putting yourself in the shoes of someone else).

This is very different to booing someone for something they can't control. Fans should be able to express themselves. Team principles and drivers should be able to express opinions, as long as it is relevant to the sport and not based on prejudice.

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Invade
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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Invade »

oz_karter wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:51 am
Clarky wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:01 am
Interesting: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -by-booing

Someone apparently fired.
Disagree with Lewis here. Booing has always happened in all sports. In this case fans were unhappy about his incident at the previous race with Max. That's not unreasonable. They were probably also not that impressed by the celebrations by Lewis and Mercedes at the end. Also not unreasonable. (If you're a fan of Lewis, try putting yourself in the shoes of someone else).

This is very different to booing someone for something they can't control. Fans should be able to express themselves. Team principles and drivers should be able to express opinions, as long as it is relevant to the sport and not based on prejudice.
But isn't his main point here about the racist abuse he's received in the aftermath and not the booing. And not the booing per se but the intention to maximally incite it.

In which case I emphatically agree.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by oz_karter »

Invade wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:00 am
oz_karter wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:51 am
Clarky wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:01 am
Interesting: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -by-booing

Someone apparently fired.
Disagree with Lewis here. Booing has always happened in all sports. In this case fans were unhappy about his incident at the previous race with Max. That's not unreasonable. They were probably also not that impressed by the celebrations by Lewis and Mercedes at the end. Also not unreasonable. (If you're a fan of Lewis, try putting yourself in the shoes of someone else).

This is very different to booing someone for something they can't control. Fans should be able to express themselves. Team principles and drivers should be able to express opinions, as long as it is relevant to the sport and not based on prejudice.
But isn't his main point here about the racist abuse he's received in the aftermath and not the booing. And not the booing per se but the intention to maximally incite it.

In which case I emphatically agree.
Of course, the racist abuse should be condemned.

I think his point was certain people in the sport (mainly Red Bull) incited the booing by things they said in the media and raising the review with the FIA. On that point, I don't really agree. Hamilton should take a step back and look at the incident, the consequences and his celebrations and wonder how fans on the other side would take that.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Yeboah24 »

oz_karter wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:07 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:00 am
oz_karter wrote:
Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:51 am
Clarky wrote:
Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:01 am
Interesting: https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... -by-booing

Someone apparently fired.
Disagree with Lewis here. Booing has always happened in all sports. In this case fans were unhappy about his incident at the previous race with Max. That's not unreasonable. They were probably also not that impressed by the celebrations by Lewis and Mercedes at the end. Also not unreasonable. (If you're a fan of Lewis, try putting yourself in the shoes of someone else).

This is very different to booing someone for something they can't control. Fans should be able to express themselves. Team principles and drivers should be able to express opinions, as long as it is relevant to the sport and not based on prejudice.
But isn't his main point here about the racist abuse he's received in the aftermath and not the booing. And not the booing per se but the intention to maximally incite it.

In which case I emphatically agree.
Of course, the racist abuse should be condemned.

I think his point was certain people in the sport (mainly Red Bull) incited the booing by things they said in the media and raising the review with the FIA. On that point, I don't really agree. Hamilton should take a step back and look at the incident, the consequences and his celebrations and wonder how fans on the other side would take that.
What do you disagree with what lewis said?

I dont think hes saying the booing is the sole result of red bulls response. He just says that those types of comments can incite these types of responses.

100% without the crash = no booing
100% more booing because of red bulls response.

Bottom line is horner should have reacted the same way he did today, at least he has the ability to self reflect and grow, it seems.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Andy_S »

As others have noted, we wouldn't be discussing this, or at least not to this level of forensic examination, had both cars made it round the corner. So really we're not talking about the drivers' actions but about the consequences, which I think is an error for the same reason it was wrong that Grosjean's punishment for that almighty pile up at Spa in 2012 was influenced not just by what he did but by who was affected. If a driver does something he's not supposed to do, penalise him for that, not for what transpires afterwards. If Lewis could have avoided impact by giving Max an inch more room, or vice versa, fine, let that be the basis of deciding not just who's in the wrong but how wrong he was. By way of analogy, if I run a red light and don't hit anyone, I'm just as wrong as if I did hit someone. If someone broke a rule, then he broke a rule. The severity of the consequences shouldn't influence anyone's assessment of the extent of his guilt.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by tootsie323 »

^ This is what confused me about Grosjean's one-race ban in 2012. The stewards would have been perfectly entitled, in my view, to give him this ban on the basis of repeat offences but the reason given, as I recall, was, colliding with championship contenders. It implied that, if he'd taken out the back end of the field (for wont of a better wording), the penalty may not have been as severe.
Where I'm going, I don't need roads

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 3:25 pm
^ This is what confused me about Grosjean's one-race ban in 2012. The stewards would have been perfectly entitled, in my view, to give him this ban on the basis of repeat offences but the reason given, as I recall, was, colliding with championship contenders. It implied that, if he'd taken out the back end of the field (for wont of a better wording), the penalty may not have been as severe.
Grosjean, under full control of his car, with space on his left, moved right on to Hamilton who was right on the edge of the track. Under full control, he made a completely unnecessary and unforced error, when the pack was completely bunched going into the most densely pack first corner on the calendar.

It rightfully deserved a one race ban. Maybe it wouldn't have been scrutinised as much had the consequences not have been as bad, but that's more of a fault from the other end. It wasn't overly harshly sentenced because of the severe consequences, but the severe consequences did draw attention to it - and that's a significant difference.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by EPROM »

Andy_S wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:49 pm
As others have noted, we wouldn't be discussing this, or at least not to this level of forensic examination, had both cars made it round the corner. So really we're not talking about the drivers' actions but about the consequences, which I think is an error for the same reason it was wrong that Grosjean's punishment for that almighty pile up at Spa in 2012 was influenced not just by what he did but by who was affected. If a driver does something he's not supposed to do, penalise him for that, not for what transpires afterwards. If Lewis could have avoided impact by giving Max an inch more room, or vice versa, fine, let that be the basis of deciding not just who's in the wrong but how wrong he was. By way of analogy, if I run a red light and don't hit anyone, I'm just as wrong as if I did hit someone. If someone broke a rule, then he broke a rule. The severity of the consequences shouldn't influence anyone's assessment of the extent of his guilt.
Yes, but...

If you are caught running a red light, you are typically assessed a significant penalty against your driver's license as well as some hefty fine. You will also incur a significant increase on your insurance premium.

But if you hit someone (or they hit you) under those circumstances, the penalty is much greater - civil lawsuits and perhaps even criminal penalty, depending on the severity of the results. That's why insurance is so commonly mandated - although it does not prevent criminal liability. Particularly if the offense is considered "reckless".

There's plenty of legal (at least in the US where I live) parallel that the degree of consequence of the offense drives the degree of consequence of the penalty.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

In the Hungarian Grand Prix, Kimi had an unsafe pit release, where he took Mazepin out of the race as a consequence and continued in the race himself.

This is a 100% fault incident on the part of Kimi/Alfa, and unsafe pit releases when there is no contact always carry a penalty.

Despite being wholly to blame, and it being an unsafe pit lane release, Kimi received a 10 second penalty - exactly the same as Hamilton - for an incident which put a competitor out of the race.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:56 am
In the Hungarian Grand Prix, Kimi had an unsafe pit release, where he took Mazepin out of the race as a consequence and continued in the race himself.

This is a 100% fault incident on the part of Kimi/Alfa, and unsafe pit releases when there is no contact always carry a penalty.

Despite being wholly to blame, and it being an unsafe pit lane release, Kimi received a 10 second penalty - exactly the same as Hamilton - for an incident which put a competitor out of the race.
I always thought that any incidents in the pit lane are obviously (potentially) more serious due to the amount of people around the cars and thus should be punished more severely. Is this what you are trying to say above? That Kimi should have had a more severe penalty or that Lewis's was too severe?

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Tufty »

I'm not sure how much a breach of traffic laws can be compared to an occurrence on a live race track. The mentality and goals are very different, as is the risk/reward balance.
Anyone in or near North Wales interested in an RC car racing tournament?

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:14 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:56 am
In the Hungarian Grand Prix, Kimi had an unsafe pit release, where he took Mazepin out of the race as a consequence and continued in the race himself.

This is a 100% fault incident on the part of Kimi/Alfa, and unsafe pit releases when there is no contact always carry a penalty.

Despite being wholly to blame, and it being an unsafe pit lane release, Kimi received a 10 second penalty - exactly the same as Hamilton - for an incident which put a competitor out of the race.
I always thought that any incidents in the pit lane are obviously (potentially) more serious due to the amount of people around the cars and thus should be punished more severely. Is this what you are trying to say above? That Kimi should have had a more severe penalty or that Lewis's was too severe?
I'm not saying anything - but just pointing it out as a frame of reference for those saying that Hamilton's penalty was too lenient because he took another car out.

In terms of how the rules have been enforced (based on the judgement of guilt by the stewards), we have one wholly to blame incident that resulted in a competitor being eliminated, and one predominantly to blame incident that resulted in a competitor being eliminated.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Siao7 »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:02 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:14 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:56 am
In the Hungarian Grand Prix, Kimi had an unsafe pit release, where he took Mazepin out of the race as a consequence and continued in the race himself.

This is a 100% fault incident on the part of Kimi/Alfa, and unsafe pit releases when there is no contact always carry a penalty.

Despite being wholly to blame, and it being an unsafe pit lane release, Kimi received a 10 second penalty - exactly the same as Hamilton - for an incident which put a competitor out of the race.
I always thought that any incidents in the pit lane are obviously (potentially) more serious due to the amount of people around the cars and thus should be punished more severely. Is this what you are trying to say above? That Kimi should have had a more severe penalty or that Lewis's was too severe?
I'm not saying anything - but just pointing it out as a frame of reference for those saying that Hamilton's penalty was too lenient because he took another car out.

In terms of how the rules have been enforced (based on the judgement of guilt by the stewards), we have one wholly to blame incident that resulted in a competitor being eliminated, and one predominantly to blame incident that resulted in a competitor being eliminated.
That's why I was asking, which one is your position?

The two incidents resulted in a car being eliminated, but I'd think that the circumstances (and place that the incident happened) were different. One is a driver's fault, the other one a team's fault. One is potentially far more dangerous in a populated area (although at far lower speeds). I think that the pit lane should be punished more severely; they have so many people looking out for other cars, they should be able to judge better an unsafe release rather than a split second decision like the Lewis incident.

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Re: Hamilton/Verstappen British GP 2021 Collision Discussion

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:08 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:02 am
Siao7 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:14 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:56 am
In the Hungarian Grand Prix, Kimi had an unsafe pit release, where he took Mazepin out of the race as a consequence and continued in the race himself.

This is a 100% fault incident on the part of Kimi/Alfa, and unsafe pit releases when there is no contact always carry a penalty.

Despite being wholly to blame, and it being an unsafe pit lane release, Kimi received a 10 second penalty - exactly the same as Hamilton - for an incident which put a competitor out of the race.
I always thought that any incidents in the pit lane are obviously (potentially) more serious due to the amount of people around the cars and thus should be punished more severely. Is this what you are trying to say above? That Kimi should have had a more severe penalty or that Lewis's was too severe?
I'm not saying anything - but just pointing it out as a frame of reference for those saying that Hamilton's penalty was too lenient because he took another car out.

In terms of how the rules have been enforced (based on the judgement of guilt by the stewards), we have one wholly to blame incident that resulted in a competitor being eliminated, and one predominantly to blame incident that resulted in a competitor being eliminated.
That's why I was asking, which one is your position?

The two incidents resulted in a car being eliminated, but I'd think that the circumstances (and place that the incident happened) were different. One is a driver's fault, the other one a team's fault. One is potentially far more dangerous in a populated area (although at far lower speeds). I think that the pit lane should be punished more severely; they have so many people looking out for other cars, they should be able to judge better an unsafe release rather than a split second decision like the Lewis incident.
The issue of team mistake versus driver mistake is irrelevant, it's one package. It might not have been Kimi who made the error with the lights, but it was the Kimi-Alfa team package who did.

My opinion is that Hamilton's penalty should certainly have been no worse than Kimi's, but arguably should have been more lenient (in relative terms, or either his was less, or Kimi's more)

This is because his incident was mixed blame (just predominantly his) whereas Kimi's incident was fully on them. Kimi's was also an unsafe pit release, so really it should have been unsafe pit release + avoidable collision with other driver penalty.

So on the basis of the fact there were two orders of magnitude difference, Kimi's should have been more severe. But the main point I am making, is there seems to be zero controversy over the lightness of Kimi's penalty, despite the fact he put another competitor out of the race and there is no argument that said competitor was a completely innocent party.

I get that the title pair colliding casts a spotlight on it, versus a backmarker that usually finishes last anyway - but the point is that if anyone is up in arms about Hamilton getting off lightly then they should feel that Kimi's penalty was an even greater injustice.

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