Silly Season 2022

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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:25 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:30 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:26 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:48 pm


Yeah, obviously it's a gamble right. Could be one worth taking though.
For sure because in qualy at least, the difference between Russel & Latifi is night & day.
Especially seeing as Williams is floated on the Stock Exchange. Appearing better increases Williams value.
If it's not appearing better with Russell how is it going to appear better with a weaker drivers than Russell.
Erm, it appears massively better with Russell than it would do with two Latifi's.... Baffled by how you can even argue that.
I'm saying they need to improve the car massively to appear better then they are presently given that whoever replaces Russell will surely be worse, a bigger problem is the car rather then Latifi, if they don't improve the car weaker drivers are hardly going to offset the finance that Latifi brings to the car.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:25 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:30 pm
UnlikeUday wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:26 pm


For sure because in qualy at least, the difference between Russel & Latifi is night & day.
Especially seeing as Williams is floated on the Stock Exchange. Appearing better increases Williams value.
If it's not appearing better with Russell how is it going to appear better with a weaker drivers than Russell.
Erm, it appears massively better with Russell than it would do with two Latifi's.... Baffled by how you can even argue that.
I'm saying they need to improve the car massively to appear better then they are presently given that whoever replaces Russell will surely be worse, a bigger problem is the car rather then Latifi, if they don't improve the car weaker drivers are hardly going to offset the finance that Latifi brings to the car.
How do you know that? The car is weak now but imagine how much worse it would look with two Latifi level driver? The loss of Russell makes it even more important to have two decent drivers.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:18 am
Williams is an an interesting ones for the reasons above. It's always interesting to see teams approaches to driver choice in relation to car performance/budget. Now that there isn't the financial pressure, surely Latifi is on borrowed time. He's not bad, but there must be bet better prospects available and if the money he brings isn't needed, they must surely be weighing that up against any contractual obligations.
Is the Latifi-family still a shareholder in the team?

And if Latifi isn't bad by F1 standards, then who is?

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:11 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:18 am
Williams is an an interesting ones for the reasons above. It's always interesting to see teams approaches to driver choice in relation to car performance/budget. Now that there isn't the financial pressure, surely Latifi is on borrowed time. He's not bad, but there must be bet better prospects available and if the money he brings isn't needed, they must surely be weighing that up against any contractual obligations.
Is the Latifi-family still a shareholder in the team?

And if Latifi isn't bad by F1 standards, then who is?
BIB: Unless I've missed something, the Latifi family isn't - and hasn't ever been - shareholders in Williams. They own 10% of the McLaren Group, sponsor Williams through their Sofina brand, and were also part of a loan package that helped the team survive at the start of the pandemic, though I'm not sure if that was repaid by Dorilton when they bought Williams. But they don't actually own any part of the team.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:25 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:30 pm


Especially seeing as Williams is floated on the Stock Exchange. Appearing better increases Williams value.
If it's not appearing better with Russell how is it going to appear better with a weaker drivers than Russell.
Erm, it appears massively better with Russell than it would do with two Latifi's.... Baffled by how you can even argue that.
I'm saying they need to improve the car massively to appear better then they are presently given that whoever replaces Russell will surely be worse, a bigger problem is the car rather then Latifi, if they don't improve the car weaker drivers are hardly going to offset the finance that Latifi brings to the car.
How do you know that? The car is weak now but imagine how much worse it would look with two Latifi level driver? The loss of Russell makes it even more important to have two decent drivers.
I never said two Latifi level drivers I expect one driver to be decent, I responded to what I believe was said that two decent drivers would be better than keeping Latifi in order to raise the profile of the team.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:25 pm

If it's not appearing better with Russell how is it going to appear better with a weaker drivers than Russell.
Erm, it appears massively better with Russell than it would do with two Latifi's.... Baffled by how you can even argue that.
I'm saying they need to improve the car massively to appear better then they are presently given that whoever replaces Russell will surely be worse, a bigger problem is the car rather then Latifi, if they don't improve the car weaker drivers are hardly going to offset the finance that Latifi brings to the car.
How do you know that? The car is weak now but imagine how much worse it would look with two Latifi level driver? The loss of Russell makes it even more important to have two decent drivers.
I never said two Latifi level drivers I expect one driver to be decent, I responded to what I believe was said that two decent drivers would be better than keeping Latifi in order to raise the profile of the team.
The team may have a higher share price with two decent level drivers than a decent level driver and Latifi. I'm not saying it will but it is a factor that needs to be considered in any cost analysis.

pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:56 pm


Erm, it appears massively better with Russell than it would do with two Latifi's.... Baffled by how you can even argue that.
I'm saying they need to improve the car massively to appear better then they are presently given that whoever replaces Russell will surely be worse, a bigger problem is the car rather then Latifi, if they don't improve the car weaker drivers are hardly going to offset the finance that Latifi brings to the car.
How do you know that? The car is weak now but imagine how much worse it would look with two Latifi level driver? The loss of Russell makes it even more important to have two decent drivers.
I never said two Latifi level drivers I expect one driver to be decent, I responded to what I believe was said that two decent drivers would be better than keeping Latifi in order to raise the profile of the team.
The team may have a higher share price with two decent level drivers than a decent level driver and Latifi. I'm not saying it will but it is a factor that needs to be considered in any cost analysis.
Through results which can't be guaranteed given what is perceived as a top driver, Russell, has scored zero points for the team thus far, how would I presume two inferior drivers do better than Russell and thus bring extra money to the team, more money than what Latifi can guarantee, also let's not forget that Latifi's contract would have to be bought out.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm

I'm saying they need to improve the car massively to appear better then they are presently given that whoever replaces Russell will surely be worse, a bigger problem is the car rather then Latifi, if they don't improve the car weaker drivers are hardly going to offset the finance that Latifi brings to the car.
How do you know that? The car is weak now but imagine how much worse it would look with two Latifi level driver? The loss of Russell makes it even more important to have two decent drivers.
I never said two Latifi level drivers I expect one driver to be decent, I responded to what I believe was said that two decent drivers would be better than keeping Latifi in order to raise the profile of the team.
The team may have a higher share price with two decent level drivers than a decent level driver and Latifi. I'm not saying it will but it is a factor that needs to be considered in any cost analysis.
Through results which can't be guaranteed given what is perceived as a top driver, Russell, has scored zero points for the team thus far, how would I presume two inferior drivers do better than Russell and thus bring extra money to the team, more money than what Latifi can guarantee, also let's not forget that Latifi's contract would have to be bought out.
I'm not talking about looking better than they do this year with Russell.

I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?

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Exediron
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm
I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
I don't think they could at present, unless their second driver has Russell's pace but is also a better finisher in the race -- the sort of driver they're quite unlikely to attract. At present, two copies of Russell would be expected to yield slightly less than double his points. Which is still 0.

In the future, however, if the car gets just a little better, a second good driver could start to make a big difference.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:57 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm
I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
I don't think they could at present, unless their second driver has Russell's pace but is also a better finisher in the race -- the sort of driver they're quite unlikely to attract. At present, two copies of Russell would be expected to yield slightly less than double his points. Which is still 0.

In the future, however, if the car gets just a little better, a second good driver could start to make a big difference.
Yeah, while the car is not a point scorer they may as well keep Latifi.

But I certainly think Williams are aiming for that not to be the case next year.

We have a big reset. Williams were able to go from one of the slowest in 2013 to 2nd quickest in 2014. Yes, that was partly the engine but they still beat McLaren and FI who were running the same engine and were far faster than Williams in 2013.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm


How do you know that? The car is weak now but imagine how much worse it would look with two Latifi level driver? The loss of Russell makes it even more important to have two decent drivers.
I never said two Latifi level drivers I expect one driver to be decent, I responded to what I believe was said that two decent drivers would be better than keeping Latifi in order to raise the profile of the team.
The team may have a higher share price with two decent level drivers than a decent level driver and Latifi. I'm not saying it will but it is a factor that needs to be considered in any cost analysis.
Through results which can't be guaranteed given what is perceived as a top driver, Russell, has scored zero points for the team thus far, how would I presume two inferior drivers do better than Russell and thus bring extra money to the team, more money than what Latifi can guarantee, also let's not forget that Latifi's contract would have to be bought out.
I'm not talking about looking better than they do this year with Russell.

I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
You seem to be guaranteeing Williams a much better car for next season for that to happen, you have more confidence than Williams perhaps?
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:48 pm

I never said two Latifi level drivers I expect one driver to be decent, I responded to what I believe was said that two decent drivers would be better than keeping Latifi in order to raise the profile of the team.
The team may have a higher share price with two decent level drivers than a decent level driver and Latifi. I'm not saying it will but it is a factor that needs to be considered in any cost analysis.
Through results which can't be guaranteed given what is perceived as a top driver, Russell, has scored zero points for the team thus far, how would I presume two inferior drivers do better than Russell and thus bring extra money to the team, more money than what Latifi can guarantee, also let's not forget that Latifi's contract would have to be bought out.
I'm not talking about looking better than they do this year with Russell.

I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
You seem to be guaranteeing Williams a much better car for next season for that to happen, you have more confidence than Williams perhaps?
Literally put IF in the second sentence.

To be honest if you make a habit of only reading the first sentence of my posts that explains an awful lot.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:36 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm


The team may have a higher share price with two decent level drivers than a decent level driver and Latifi. I'm not saying it will but it is a factor that needs to be considered in any cost analysis.
Through results which can't be guaranteed given what is perceived as a top driver, Russell, has scored zero points for the team thus far, how would I presume two inferior drivers do better than Russell and thus bring extra money to the team, more money than what Latifi can guarantee, also let's not forget that Latifi's contract would have to be bought out.
I'm not talking about looking better than they do this year with Russell.

I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
You seem to be guaranteeing Williams a much better car for next season for that to happen, you have more confidence than Williams perhaps?
Literally put IF in the second sentence.

To be honest if you make a habit of only reading the first sentence of my posts that explains an awful lot.
I'm not sure Williams can go by IF as any kind of guarantee, is that better?
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:36 pm

Through results which can't be guaranteed given what is perceived as a top driver, Russell, has scored zero points for the team thus far, how would I presume two inferior drivers do better than Russell and thus bring extra money to the team, more money than what Latifi can guarantee, also let's not forget that Latifi's contract would have to be bought out.
I'm not talking about looking better than they do this year with Russell.

I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
You seem to be guaranteeing Williams a much better car for next season for that to happen, you have more confidence than Williams perhaps?
Literally put IF in the second sentence.

To be honest if you make a habit of only reading the first sentence of my posts that explains an awful lot.
I'm not sure Williams can go by IF as any kind of guarantee, is that better?
No because who on earth is saying that they should? Nothing is guaranteed.

You've just created yet another strawman. If you disagree why don't you argue against what I've actually said?

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by WHoff78 »

Honestly you are both right. Yes, most teams are not going to pay a driver out of his contract. But, if you were to expect this from any team/drivers next season the situation for latifi makes this a reasonable bet. The one thing in his favor, other than the contract, is that Williams may decide they don't want to change both drivers and we all know there is a good chance Russell won't be there next year.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

WHoff78 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:49 pm
Honestly you are both right. Yes, most teams are not going to pay a driver out of his contract. But, if you were to expect this from any team/drivers next season the situation for latifi makes this a reasonable bet. The one thing in his favor, other than the contract, is that Williams may decide they don't want to change both drivers and we all know there is a good chance Russell won't be there next year.
I don't know if Williams will let Latifi go. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. I just don't think keeping Latifi is sure fire best decision even on a financial basis. People always underestimate the difference quality drivers can make to a teams performance, the perception from the wider world, morale within the team etc.

If Williams were to dump Latifi and get in say Bottas and Hulkenberg that would be a huge statement of intent. Share price would go up, the team would surely be worth more and there owned by an asset management company. The company value going up is the entire point.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by UnlikeUday »

The thing is if Williams as a team are more financially capable of competing in years to come, it negates the need for Latifi then. Getting two good drivers would atleast enable them to dream of a higher WCC standing.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:26 am
The thing is if Williams as a team are more financially capable of competing in years to come, it negates the need for Latifi then. Getting two good drivers would atleast enable them to dream of a higher WCC standing.
Exactly. Williams could end up in a very tight midfield battle next season after the rules shakeup and Latifi could legitimately cost them multiple spots in the constructors championship.

This has even happened before to Williams. Major reg change in 2009 and Williams started the season with a very good car having nailed the DDD loop hole. However, they have Nakajima who well underperforms and doesn't score a point all season where there other driver Rosberg has 11 scoring finishes from 17 races. Williams finish 7th in the constructors championship where as with two drivers capable of consistent point scoring they would have been fighting for as a high as 3rd in the WCC and finishing no lower than 5th.

Having a pay driver in Nakajima ended up costing them a lot of money.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:48 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:38 pm


I'm not talking about looking better than they do this year with Russell.

I'm talking about if they look better next year with two decent drivers than they would do with one decent driver and Latifi. Could they finish higher up in the WCC if they do? Could they raise their value in the stock market?
You seem to be guaranteeing Williams a much better car for next season for that to happen, you have more confidence than Williams perhaps?
Literally put IF in the second sentence.

To be honest if you make a habit of only reading the first sentence of my posts that explains an awful lot.
I'm not sure Williams can go by IF as any kind of guarantee, is that better?
No because who on earth is saying that they should? Nothing is guaranteed.

You've just created yet another strawman. If you disagree why don't you argue against what I've actually said?
What is guaranteed is the money that Latifi brings to the team.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:48 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:48 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:37 pm

You seem to be guaranteeing Williams a much better car for next season for that to happen, you have more confidence than Williams perhaps?
Literally put IF in the second sentence.

To be honest if you make a habit of only reading the first sentence of my posts that explains an awful lot.
I'm not sure Williams can go by IF as any kind of guarantee, is that better?
No because who on earth is saying that they should? Nothing is guaranteed.

You've just created yet another strawman. If you disagree why don't you argue against what I've actually said?
What is guaranteed is the money that Latifi brings to the team.
Which nobody has argued. Unless you have a point beyond that I don't know why you are commenting.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Tufty »

Williams have said they no longer need pay drivers. I wonder if that's an attempt to make Latifi improve in the second half of the year, or if this is genuinely the case and they're just establishing the scenario that leads to an early contract termination. Or, indeed, simply justifying not taking on a pay driver next year to replace George, and another driver who brings no money for 2023. There are a lot of permutations.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:55 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:48 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:48 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 7:44 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 3:57 pm


Literally put IF in the second sentence.

To be honest if you make a habit of only reading the first sentence of my posts that explains an awful lot.
I'm not sure Williams can go by IF as any kind of guarantee, is that better?
No because who on earth is saying that they should? Nothing is guaranteed.

You've just created yet another strawman. If you disagree why don't you argue against what I've actually said?
What is guaranteed is the money that Latifi brings to the team.
Which nobody has argued. Unless you have a point beyond that I don't know why you are commenting.
I'm just questioning your financial argument of what might be best for Williams when it starts with a financial deficit, you lose $20M from Latifi, you buy out his contract say $10, get in 2 drivers capable of scoring points if Williams can build a points scoring car, another $10M, that's $40M.

If they can't build such a car then it all becomes a financial loss and where is the actual proof that scoring some points overcomes such a loss anyway.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I'm just questioning your financial argument of what might be best for Williams when it starts with a financial deficit, you lose $20M from Latifi, you buy out his contract say $10, get in 2 drivers capable of scoring points if Williams can build a points scoring car, another $10M, that's $40M.

If they can't build such a car then it all becomes a financial loss and where is the actual proof that scoring some points overcomes such a loss anyway.
Obviously, Latifi is money in the bank. That's worth something -- I don't know if $20m is accurate for his sponsorship, but let's say it is.

There are a few revenue streams a second competitive driver might be able to open:

1) First, there's the direct effect of WCC gains. It's hard to know how much teams really get in prize money, but probably $5-10m for going from 10th to 8th in the WCC, which is about the maximum reasonable movement they can make. Most of that would still be down to the car, obviously.

2) Indirect sponsorship. The main source of revenue for any team is sponsorship, and a second competitive driver -- combined with upward movement and increased interest -- could draw in more sponsors, in effect replacing the pay driver's personal sponsors. We can see at McLaren what a difference being viewed as competitive and interesting makes -- look at how many more sponsors are on the car now compared to 2015/2016.

3) As Mikey mentioned, the stock market valuation. Here, public interest and enthusiasm translates directly into money, so hiring a second driver who's highly rated and viewed as interesting could benefit Williams financially even without a point being earned.

I'm not saying those would necessarily come out equal or ahead of Latifi's money, but those are a few ways I can see of offsetting Latifi's money with a more competitive driver.
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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

I'm wondering if Tsunoda will even get another season. Maybe the team will get their best ever line up back and get the Torpedo back in ;)

https://www.racefans.net/2020/02/23/rac ... p-23-02-3/

mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:37 pm
I'm wondering if Tsunoda will even get another season. Maybe the team will get their best ever line up back and get the Torpedo back in ;)

https://www.racefans.net/2020/02/23/rac ... p-23-02-3/
Kvyat has no chance. Red Bull have a problem with too many juniors as it is. Vips, Lawson in F2 and Hauger dominating F3.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I'm just questioning your financial argument of what might be best for Williams when it starts with a financial deficit, you lose $20M from Latifi, you buy out his contract say $10, get in 2 drivers capable of scoring points if Williams can build a points scoring car, another $10M, that's $40M.

If they can't build such a car then it all becomes a financial loss and where is the actual proof that scoring some points overcomes such a loss anyway.
Obviously, Latifi is money in the bank. That's worth something -- I don't know if $20m is accurate for his sponsorship, but let's say it is.

There are a few revenue streams a second competitive driver might be able to open:

1) First, there's the direct effect of WCC gains. It's hard to know how much teams really get in prize money, but probably $5-10m for going from 10th to 8th in the WCC, which is about the maximum reasonable movement they can make. Most of that would still be down to the car, obviously.

2) Indirect sponsorship. The main source of revenue for any team is sponsorship, and a second competitive driver -- combined with upward movement and increased interest -- could draw in more sponsors, in effect replacing the pay driver's personal sponsors. We can see at McLaren what a difference being viewed as competitive and interesting makes -- look at how many more sponsors are on the car now compared to 2015/2016.

3) As Mikey mentioned, the stock market valuation. Here, public interest and enthusiasm translates directly into money, so hiring a second driver who's highly rated and viewed as interesting could benefit Williams financially even without a point being earned.

I'm not saying those would necessarily come out equal or ahead of Latifi's money, but those are a few ways I can see of offsetting Latifi's money with a more competitive driver.
1) After Hungary there's a good chance of Williams finishing 8th this season so that's no gain, another 2 place jump to 6th would have to see a massive gain in car performance, like we agree no guarantee.

2) McLaren drew in sponsors surely on finishing 3rd/4th that's a tall and unlikely order for Williams.

3) I have to ask who is this interesting driver who's not a pay driver and Mikey was talking of 2 drivers not one driver, you have Bottas and the Hulk, are these two drivers really big sponsorship generators, the Hulk never was in the first place.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I'm just questioning your financial argument of what might be best for Williams when it starts with a financial deficit, you lose $20M from Latifi, you buy out his contract say $10, get in 2 drivers capable of scoring points if Williams can build a points scoring car, another $10M, that's $40M.

If they can't build such a car then it all becomes a financial loss and where is the actual proof that scoring some points overcomes such a loss anyway.
Obviously, Latifi is money in the bank. That's worth something -- I don't know if $20m is accurate for his sponsorship, but let's say it is.

There are a few revenue streams a second competitive driver might be able to open:

1) First, there's the direct effect of WCC gains. It's hard to know how much teams really get in prize money, but probably $5-10m for going from 10th to 8th in the WCC, which is about the maximum reasonable movement they can make. Most of that would still be down to the car, obviously.

2) Indirect sponsorship. The main source of revenue for any team is sponsorship, and a second competitive driver -- combined with upward movement and increased interest -- could draw in more sponsors, in effect replacing the pay driver's personal sponsors. We can see at McLaren what a difference being viewed as competitive and interesting makes -- look at how many more sponsors are on the car now compared to 2015/2016.

3) As Mikey mentioned, the stock market valuation. Here, public interest and enthusiasm translates directly into money, so hiring a second driver who's highly rated and viewed as interesting could benefit Williams financially even without a point being earned.

I'm not saying those would necessarily come out equal or ahead of Latifi's money, but those are a few ways I can see of offsetting Latifi's money with a more competitive driver.
1) After Hungary there's a good chance of Williams finishing 8th this season so that's no gain, another 2 place jump to 6th would have to see a massive gain in car performance, like we agree no guarantee.

2) McLaren drew in sponsors surely on finishing 3rd/4th that's a tall and unlikely order for Williams.

3) I have to ask who is this interesting driver who's not a pay driver and Mikey was talking of 2 drivers not one driver, you have Bottas and the Hulk, are these two drivers really big sponsorship generators, the Hulk never was in the first place.
It's totally irrelevant where they finish this season. The gain or no gain comes next season. So the question is will a better driver help move them to a higher WCC position in 2022 than they would achieve with Latifi in 2022.

You seem to be forgetting there is a big rule change coming up. It's 100% possible Williams are in the midfield next season. If it's a close midfield a driver can make a big difference to where a team finishes in the WCC.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by oz_karter »

With all the rumours and hype, if Bottas stays at Mercedes there are going to be a lot of deflated F1 fans.

I read this week Oscar Piastri (Alpine contracted F2 driver) says he has F1 options if he performs in F2 for the rest of the year.

I assume that must be a test/reserve driver role? Can't see how Alpine would be able to place him in a race seat anywhere.

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Andy_S
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Andy_S »

UnlikeUday wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:59 am

Hamilton - Will he retire or stay?
If he wins he'll stay for certain. If he loses he'll probably retire.

Why?

Consecutive championships is the one major record Michael still holds outright. Lewis can match it this year, but he'll need to win next year to beat it. If he doesn't win this year then there's no chance as he surely doesn't have enough years left.
Last edited by Andy_S on Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Jenson's Understeer »

oz_karter wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:37 am
With all the rumours and hype, if Bottas stays at Mercedes there are going to be a lot of deflated F1 fans.

I read this week Oscar Piastri (Alpine contracted F2 driver) says he has F1 options if he performs in F2 for the rest of the year.

I assume that must be a test/reserve driver role? Can't see how Alpine would be able to place him in a race seat anywhere.
Agreed. I just can't see where either he or Zhou could land. It would have to be Alfa, Haas or Williams, but none of them feel like they'll be in a position to take either on.

Haas are obviously keeping Mazepin. Schumacher staying seems logical too, particularly given how much Steiner went on about signing guys for this year that they would keep for 2022. The only exception to that would be if Ferrari convinced Alfa to take Mick Schumacher, however it seems like if Alfa are going to have an inexperienced driver in their line-up, it'll be the guy they're already supporting (Pourchaire). Given they've also been linked to Bottas, even if they can't get Valtteri I suspect they'd be looking to have a more experienced driver than Mick alongside Theo in their other seat.

If Schumacher did swap teams, after the trouble they've had with two rookies this year, it's hard to imagine it would be Haas' preference to pair Mazepin with a rookie next year. Maybe the finances on it would mean they didn't have a choice, but in that scenario surely the likes of Ilott and Shwartzman are more likely given Haas and Ferrari's relationship.

So that just leaves Williams, and I can't imagine what Alpine would be willing to pay them to take Zhou or Piastri is going to be greater than what it would cost them to buy out Latifi and cover the income he would've brought for 2022. And all that to take another team's less experienced driver. They'll also either cling onto Russell or replace him with a more experienced driver, be it Bottas, Hulk or Kvyat.

It just doesn't seem like there is a fit, not unless Alpine are offering up silly money.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I'm just questioning your financial argument of what might be best for Williams when it starts with a financial deficit, you lose $20M from Latifi, you buy out his contract say $10, get in 2 drivers capable of scoring points if Williams can build a points scoring car, another $10M, that's $40M.

If they can't build such a car then it all becomes a financial loss and where is the actual proof that scoring some points overcomes such a loss anyway.
Obviously, Latifi is money in the bank. That's worth something -- I don't know if $20m is accurate for his sponsorship, but let's say it is.

There are a few revenue streams a second competitive driver might be able to open:

1) First, there's the direct effect of WCC gains. It's hard to know how much teams really get in prize money, but probably $5-10m for going from 10th to 8th in the WCC, which is about the maximum reasonable movement they can make. Most of that would still be down to the car, obviously.

2) Indirect sponsorship. The main source of revenue for any team is sponsorship, and a second competitive driver -- combined with upward movement and increased interest -- could draw in more sponsors, in effect replacing the pay driver's personal sponsors. We can see at McLaren what a difference being viewed as competitive and interesting makes -- look at how many more sponsors are on the car now compared to 2015/2016.

3) As Mikey mentioned, the stock market valuation. Here, public interest and enthusiasm translates directly into money, so hiring a second driver who's highly rated and viewed as interesting could benefit Williams financially even without a point being earned.

I'm not saying those would necessarily come out equal or ahead of Latifi's money, but those are a few ways I can see of offsetting Latifi's money with a more competitive driver.
1) After Hungary there's a good chance of Williams finishing 8th this season so that's no gain, another 2 place jump to 6th would have to see a massive gain in car performance, like we agree no guarantee.

2) McLaren drew in sponsors surely on finishing 3rd/4th that's a tall and unlikely order for Williams.

3) I have to ask who is this interesting driver who's not a pay driver and Mikey was talking of 2 drivers not one driver, you have Bottas and the Hulk, are these two drivers really big sponsorship generators, the Hulk never was in the first place.
It's totally irrelevant where they finish this season. The gain or no gain comes next season. So the question is will a better driver help move them to a higher WCC position in 2022 than they would achieve with Latifi in 2022.

You seem to be forgetting there is a big rule change coming up. It's 100% possible Williams are in the midfield next season. If it's a close midfield a driver can make a big difference to where a team finishes in the WCC.
I have to wonder exactly who are these drivers are that can make a difference on the off chance that Williams can even produce a top 6 car because I think that's what they need to do to offset the financial liability they would start the season with.
Last edited by pokerman on Thu Aug 05, 2021 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

Andy_S wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:52 am
UnlikeUday wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 6:59 am

Hamilton - Will he retire or stay?
If he wins he'll stay for certain. If he loses he'll probably retire.

Why?

Consecutive championships is the one major record Michael still holds outright. Lewis can match it this year, but he'll need to win next year to beat it. If he doesn't win this year then there's no chance as he surely doesn't have enough years left.
No way that Hamilton retires if he loses this year, where did consecutive titles ever start to become more important than total titles, there's still the 8th title to go for, also Hamilton signed a 2 year contract because he wants to be in F1 for at least 2 more years, simple as that.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:49 pm
I'm just questioning your financial argument of what might be best for Williams when it starts with a financial deficit, you lose $20M from Latifi, you buy out his contract say $10, get in 2 drivers capable of scoring points if Williams can build a points scoring car, another $10M, that's $40M.

If they can't build such a car then it all becomes a financial loss and where is the actual proof that scoring some points overcomes such a loss anyway.
Obviously, Latifi is money in the bank. That's worth something -- I don't know if $20m is accurate for his sponsorship, but let's say it is.

There are a few revenue streams a second competitive driver might be able to open:

1) First, there's the direct effect of WCC gains. It's hard to know how much teams really get in prize money, but probably $5-10m for going from 10th to 8th in the WCC, which is about the maximum reasonable movement they can make. Most of that would still be down to the car, obviously.

2) Indirect sponsorship. The main source of revenue for any team is sponsorship, and a second competitive driver -- combined with upward movement and increased interest -- could draw in more sponsors, in effect replacing the pay driver's personal sponsors. We can see at McLaren what a difference being viewed as competitive and interesting makes -- look at how many more sponsors are on the car now compared to 2015/2016.

3) As Mikey mentioned, the stock market valuation. Here, public interest and enthusiasm translates directly into money, so hiring a second driver who's highly rated and viewed as interesting could benefit Williams financially even without a point being earned.

I'm not saying those would necessarily come out equal or ahead of Latifi's money, but those are a few ways I can see of offsetting Latifi's money with a more competitive driver.
1) After Hungary there's a good chance of Williams finishing 8th this season so that's no gain, another 2 place jump to 6th would have to see a massive gain in car performance, like we agree no guarantee.

2) McLaren drew in sponsors surely on finishing 3rd/4th that's a tall and unlikely order for Williams.

3) I have to ask who is this interesting driver who's not a pay driver and Mikey was talking of 2 drivers not one driver, you have Bottas and the Hulk, are these two drivers really big sponsorship generators, the Hulk never was in the first place.
It's totally irrelevant where they finish this season. The gain or no gain comes next season. So the question is will a better driver help move them to a higher WCC position in 2022 than they would achieve with Latifi in 2022.

You seem to be forgetting there is a big rule change coming up. It's 100% possible Williams are in the midfield next season. If it's a close midfield a driver can make a big difference to where a team finishes in the WCC.
I have to wonder exactly who are these drivers are that can make a difference on the off chance that Williams can even produce a top 6 car because I think that's what they need to do to offset the financial liability they would start the season with.
It's not an off chance. I think it's quite likely that Williams will be fighting in a congested midfield. In that circumstances drivers can make a crucial difference. You don't even need that much of a better driver to start bumping you up the WCC.

Let's not forget as well, they may not even need to replace the Latifi money. They're owned by an asset management company. They may be willing to pump money in to try and realise a profit on their investment.

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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:41 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:05 pm


Obviously, Latifi is money in the bank. That's worth something -- I don't know if $20m is accurate for his sponsorship, but let's say it is.

There are a few revenue streams a second competitive driver might be able to open:

1) First, there's the direct effect of WCC gains. It's hard to know how much teams really get in prize money, but probably $5-10m for going from 10th to 8th in the WCC, which is about the maximum reasonable movement they can make. Most of that would still be down to the car, obviously.

2) Indirect sponsorship. The main source of revenue for any team is sponsorship, and a second competitive driver -- combined with upward movement and increased interest -- could draw in more sponsors, in effect replacing the pay driver's personal sponsors. We can see at McLaren what a difference being viewed as competitive and interesting makes -- look at how many more sponsors are on the car now compared to 2015/2016.

3) As Mikey mentioned, the stock market valuation. Here, public interest and enthusiasm translates directly into money, so hiring a second driver who's highly rated and viewed as interesting could benefit Williams financially even without a point being earned.

I'm not saying those would necessarily come out equal or ahead of Latifi's money, but those are a few ways I can see of offsetting Latifi's money with a more competitive driver.
1) After Hungary there's a good chance of Williams finishing 8th this season so that's no gain, another 2 place jump to 6th would have to see a massive gain in car performance, like we agree no guarantee.

2) McLaren drew in sponsors surely on finishing 3rd/4th that's a tall and unlikely order for Williams.

3) I have to ask who is this interesting driver who's not a pay driver and Mikey was talking of 2 drivers not one driver, you have Bottas and the Hulk, are these two drivers really big sponsorship generators, the Hulk never was in the first place.
It's totally irrelevant where they finish this season. The gain or no gain comes next season. So the question is will a better driver help move them to a higher WCC position in 2022 than they would achieve with Latifi in 2022.

You seem to be forgetting there is a big rule change coming up. It's 100% possible Williams are in the midfield next season. If it's a close midfield a driver can make a big difference to where a team finishes in the WCC.
I have to wonder exactly who are these drivers are that can make a difference on the off chance that Williams can even produce a top 6 car because I think that's what they need to do to offset the financial liability they would start the season with.
It's not an off chance. I think it's quite likely that Williams will be fighting in a congested midfield. In that circumstances drivers can make a crucial difference. You don't even need that much of a better driver to start bumping you up the WCC.

Let's not forget as well, they may not even need to replace the Latifi money. They're owned by an asset management company. They may be willing to pump money in to try and realise a profit on their investment.
I have to ask again who are these drivers who are going to make the difference, also we're not just talking about replacing Latifi's money his contract would also need buying out, they're going to make more money by first throwing away money, I'm not sure how companies survive operating like that or are we back to the old F1 adage that to become a Millionaire in F1 you need to first start out as a Billionaire.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:41 pm

1) After Hungary there's a good chance of Williams finishing 8th this season so that's no gain, another 2 place jump to 6th would have to see a massive gain in car performance, like we agree no guarantee.

2) McLaren drew in sponsors surely on finishing 3rd/4th that's a tall and unlikely order for Williams.

3) I have to ask who is this interesting driver who's not a pay driver and Mikey was talking of 2 drivers not one driver, you have Bottas and the Hulk, are these two drivers really big sponsorship generators, the Hulk never was in the first place.
It's totally irrelevant where they finish this season. The gain or no gain comes next season. So the question is will a better driver help move them to a higher WCC position in 2022 than they would achieve with Latifi in 2022.

You seem to be forgetting there is a big rule change coming up. It's 100% possible Williams are in the midfield next season. If it's a close midfield a driver can make a big difference to where a team finishes in the WCC.
I have to wonder exactly who are these drivers are that can make a difference on the off chance that Williams can even produce a top 6 car because I think that's what they need to do to offset the financial liability they would start the season with.
It's not an off chance. I think it's quite likely that Williams will be fighting in a congested midfield. In that circumstances drivers can make a crucial difference. You don't even need that much of a better driver to start bumping you up the WCC.

Let's not forget as well, they may not even need to replace the Latifi money. They're owned by an asset management company. They may be willing to pump money in to try and realise a profit on their investment.
I have to ask again who are these drivers who are going to make the difference, also we're not just talking about replacing Latifi's money his contract would also need buying out, they're going to make more money by first throwing away money, I'm not sure how companies survive operating like that or are we back to the old F1 adage that to become a Millionaire in F1 you need to first start out as a Billionaire.
Mate, there isn't a company in the world that didn't have to put money in, in order to get money out. That's basically how business works. You need to speculate to accumulate.

Look at Aston Martin... On the face of it, it would be way cheaper to keep Perez rather than signing Vettel. They decided Vettel was an investment worth making. Why would this be different?

There are many, many drivers better than Latifi. Pick one.

pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Aug 04, 2021 8:49 pm


It's totally irrelevant where they finish this season. The gain or no gain comes next season. So the question is will a better driver help move them to a higher WCC position in 2022 than they would achieve with Latifi in 2022.

You seem to be forgetting there is a big rule change coming up. It's 100% possible Williams are in the midfield next season. If it's a close midfield a driver can make a big difference to where a team finishes in the WCC.
I have to wonder exactly who are these drivers are that can make a difference on the off chance that Williams can even produce a top 6 car because I think that's what they need to do to offset the financial liability they would start the season with.
It's not an off chance. I think it's quite likely that Williams will be fighting in a congested midfield. In that circumstances drivers can make a crucial difference. You don't even need that much of a better driver to start bumping you up the WCC.

Let's not forget as well, they may not even need to replace the Latifi money. They're owned by an asset management company. They may be willing to pump money in to try and realise a profit on their investment.
I have to ask again who are these drivers who are going to make the difference, also we're not just talking about replacing Latifi's money his contract would also need buying out, they're going to make more money by first throwing away money, I'm not sure how companies survive operating like that or are we back to the old F1 adage that to become a Millionaire in F1 you need to first start out as a Billionaire.
Mate, there isn't a company in the world that didn't have to put money in, in order to get money out. That's basically how business works. You need to speculate to accumulate.

Look at Aston Martin... On the face of it, it would be way cheaper to keep Perez rather than signing Vettel. They decided Vettel was an investment worth making. Why would this be different?

There are many, many drivers better than Latifi. Pick one.
Aston Martin knew they had a points scoring car plus Vettel is a 4 times world champion so I can understand the commercial benefits, Williams have no guarantee of a points scoring car plus what marquee driver can they exactly sign, another thing regarding Aston Martin is the team was clearly bought for the benefit of the son, Lawrence Stroll had probably already spent around $200M on his son's career before he bought the team.
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:56 am

I have to wonder exactly who are these drivers are that can make a difference on the off chance that Williams can even produce a top 6 car because I think that's what they need to do to offset the financial liability they would start the season with.
It's not an off chance. I think it's quite likely that Williams will be fighting in a congested midfield. In that circumstances drivers can make a crucial difference. You don't even need that much of a better driver to start bumping you up the WCC.

Let's not forget as well, they may not even need to replace the Latifi money. They're owned by an asset management company. They may be willing to pump money in to try and realise a profit on their investment.
I have to ask again who are these drivers who are going to make the difference, also we're not just talking about replacing Latifi's money his contract would also need buying out, they're going to make more money by first throwing away money, I'm not sure how companies survive operating like that or are we back to the old F1 adage that to become a Millionaire in F1 you need to first start out as a Billionaire.
Mate, there isn't a company in the world that didn't have to put money in, in order to get money out. That's basically how business works. You need to speculate to accumulate.

Look at Aston Martin... On the face of it, it would be way cheaper to keep Perez rather than signing Vettel. They decided Vettel was an investment worth making. Why would this be different?

There are many, many drivers better than Latifi. Pick one.
Aston Martin knew they had a points scoring car plus Vettel is a 4 times world champion so I can understand the commercial benefits, Williams have no guarantee of a points scoring car plus what marquee driver can they exactly sign, another thing regarding Aston Martin is the team was clearly bought for the benefit of the son, Lawrence Stroll had probably already spent around $200M on his son's career before he bought the team.
Aston Martin were bought buy a consortium of people. Lawrence may be in it for Lance (how does spending money on Vettel help Lance anyway) but there are people involved who are involved to make money.

They don't need a marquee driver. Just someone better than Latiffi. There are plenty.

Just like most decisions in business there is no way to guarantee more profit here. Personally I think they'll stick with Latiffi. However, I don't think that's a financial no brainer.

You keep forgetting it's almost a full reset next season. Williams did really well at the last one. They went from a car as uncompetetive as this one to the second best car. Not saying that is likely to happen again but if I was them I would at least be thinking like a midfield team and attempt to capitalise on the regs change. Otherwise how are they going to increase the team's value?

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Tufty
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by Tufty »

The only question there is whether the new management knows how to think that way.
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pokerman
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:37 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:36 pm


It's not an off chance. I think it's quite likely that Williams will be fighting in a congested midfield. In that circumstances drivers can make a crucial difference. You don't even need that much of a better driver to start bumping you up the WCC.

Let's not forget as well, they may not even need to replace the Latifi money. They're owned by an asset management company. They may be willing to pump money in to try and realise a profit on their investment.
I have to ask again who are these drivers who are going to make the difference, also we're not just talking about replacing Latifi's money his contract would also need buying out, they're going to make more money by first throwing away money, I'm not sure how companies survive operating like that or are we back to the old F1 adage that to become a Millionaire in F1 you need to first start out as a Billionaire.
Mate, there isn't a company in the world that didn't have to put money in, in order to get money out. That's basically how business works. You need to speculate to accumulate.

Look at Aston Martin... On the face of it, it would be way cheaper to keep Perez rather than signing Vettel. They decided Vettel was an investment worth making. Why would this be different?

There are many, many drivers better than Latifi. Pick one.
Aston Martin knew they had a points scoring car plus Vettel is a 4 times world champion so I can understand the commercial benefits, Williams have no guarantee of a points scoring car plus what marquee driver can they exactly sign, another thing regarding Aston Martin is the team was clearly bought for the benefit of the son, Lawrence Stroll had probably already spent around $200M on his son's career before he bought the team.
Aston Martin were bought buy a consortium of people. Lawrence may be in it for Lance (how does spending money on Vettel help Lance anyway) but there are people involved who are involved to make money.

They don't need a marquee driver. Just someone better than Latiffi. There are plenty.

Just like most decisions in business there is no way to guarantee more profit here. Personally I think they'll stick with Latiffi. However, I don't think that's a financial no brainer.

You keep forgetting it's almost a full reset next season. Williams did really well at the last one. They went from a car as uncompetetive as this one to the second best car. Not saying that is likely to happen again but if I was them I would at least be thinking like a midfield team and attempt to capitalise on the regs change. Otherwise how are they going to increase the team's value?
I just don't see it as a sound business plan if your goal is to actually make money out of F1, what comes first the chicken or the egg, you build the cars then get the drivers to suit, or you get the drivers and hope you build the cars to suit.

Can a consortium really risk haemorrhaging huge amount's of money like Honda did with McLaren, they got the world champion drivers but couldn't build the cars.

You look to compare with Aston Martin but don't they have their own bona fide pay driver in Lance Stroll, clearly the team would have been a lot of stronger with Vettel and Perez.

I would say the Aston Martin consortium is indeed an example of a bunch of Billionaires looking to be Millionaires in terms of what they're looking to make out of the sport, they just won't get reduced to being plain millionaires.

Going further who are exactly are these Marquee drivers that Williams can get anyway, I daresay Williams would have to build a top 4 car just to finish top 6 given the teams they are competing against will more than probable have better drivers.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Silly Season 2022

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 4:37 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Aug 06, 2021 3:52 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 4:27 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Aug 05, 2021 3:47 pm

I have to ask again who are these drivers who are going to make the difference, also we're not just talking about replacing Latifi's money his contract would also need buying out, they're going to make more money by first throwing away money, I'm not sure how companies survive operating like that or are we back to the old F1 adage that to become a Millionaire in F1 you need to first start out as a Billionaire.
Mate, there isn't a company in the world that didn't have to put money in, in order to get money out. That's basically how business works. You need to speculate to accumulate.

Look at Aston Martin... On the face of it, it would be way cheaper to keep Perez rather than signing Vettel. They decided Vettel was an investment worth making. Why would this be different?

There are many, many drivers better than Latifi. Pick one.
Aston Martin knew they had a points scoring car plus Vettel is a 4 times world champion so I can understand the commercial benefits, Williams have no guarantee of a points scoring car plus what marquee driver can they exactly sign, another thing regarding Aston Martin is the team was clearly bought for the benefit of the son, Lawrence Stroll had probably already spent around $200M on his son's career before he bought the team.
Aston Martin were bought buy a consortium of people. Lawrence may be in it for Lance (how does spending money on Vettel help Lance anyway) but there are people involved who are involved to make money.

They don't need a marquee driver. Just someone better than Latiffi. There are plenty.

Just like most decisions in business there is no way to guarantee more profit here. Personally I think they'll stick with Latiffi. However, I don't think that's a financial no brainer.

You keep forgetting it's almost a full reset next season. Williams did really well at the last one. They went from a car as uncompetetive as this one to the second best car. Not saying that is likely to happen again but if I was them I would at least be thinking like a midfield team and attempt to capitalise on the regs change. Otherwise how are they going to increase the team's value?
I just don't see it as a sound business plan if your goal is to actually make money out of F1, what comes first the chicken or the egg, you build the cars then get the drivers to suit, or you get the drivers and hope you build the cars to suit.

Can a consortium really risk haemorrhaging huge amount's of money like Honda did with McLaren, they got the world champion drivers but couldn't build the cars.

You look to compare with Aston Martin but don't they have their own bona fide pay driver in Lance Stroll, clearly the team would have been a lot of stronger with Vettel and Perez.

I would say the Aston Martin consortium is indeed an example of a bunch of Billionaires looking to be Millionaires in terms of what they're looking to make out of the sport, they just won't get reduced to being plain millionaires.

Going further who are exactly are these Marquee drivers that Williams can get anyway, I daresay Williams would have to build a top 4 car just to finish top 6 given the teams they are competing against will more than probable have better drivers.
Yes, as I said. Every business has to invest to make money and grow. Nobody is making billions out of owning an F1 team. That isn't the goal.

Lance Stroll isn't a pay driver in that he brings money to the team. His dad is already a large investor. But you know this already so I don't understand this particular point.

The finishing position in the WCC and the impact the drivers can make all depends on how tight the field spread is doesn't it. If it's tight next year then yeah even if they replace Latifi they could be at a driver deficit if they are fighting McLaren, Ferrari or Alpine. It might be best to make that deficit as small as possible.

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