Is Ricciardo done?

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Exediron
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm
It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
Giving McLaren a bonus 2 tenths of qualifying pace and assuming they hold roughly that speed in the races, we get:

Bahrain: P5 in qualifying, P4 in the race (+2 / +0)
Imola: P4 in qualifying, P2 in the race (* / + 1)
Portugal: P5 in qualifying, P5 in the race (+2 / +0)
Spain: P4 in qualifying, P5 in the race (+3 / +1)
Monaco: P2 in qualifying, likely race win (+3 / +2)
Azerbaijan: P3 in qualifying (P6 after penalty), likely P4 in the race (+3 / +1)
France: P8 in qualifying, P5 in the race (+0 / +0)
Styria: P2 in qualifying, likely P5 in the race (+2 / +0)
Austria: Pole position, P2 in the race (+1 / +1)
Britain: P4 in qualifying, likely P5 in the sprint, P5 in the race (+2 / +0 / +0)

That's still a largely midfield car, as you suspected. They would have one pole (two, if Lando delivered on his lap in Imola), and probably a single inherited race win from Ferrari when Leclerc had his DNS in Monaco.

Essentially, this is a demonstration of the still-sizable gap from the top of the midfield to the contenders. Giving McLaren two tenths would establish them as the clear 'gap team' between Mercedes / Red Bull and the rest, but it wouldn't be enough on race day to bridge that gap.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Badgeronimous »

There hasn't really been any path for Ricciardo to ever find himself into a championship challenging seat. No path to Mercedes, or the 17/18 Ferrari.

He could have stayed 8 seasons at Red Bull to finally get a championship capable car, but that is pretty unprecedented to be at a team that long that isn't challenging (has any supposed "top" driver ever spent 7yrs with a non challenging team, without moving?). Plus there is the Verstappen factor and how Red Bull would always build the team around their golden boy (with justification). I do think Ricciardo is too good a driver to be "Webber'd".

It is just a symptom of the era. The sports been very stagnant in terms of team performance and available seats.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by DOLOMITE »

He's not "done", but at this stage in the season, his stock will certainly have dropped a bit. But as him and Lando are alongside each other for a while yet he's certainly going to have to close the gap. Alonso has shown that it can be done, and Sainz has show that's possible to hit the ground running. Pressure is on for sure.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:03 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:50 pm


Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...
He relied on the faster cars messing up to have any kind of chance, his destiny was not in his own hands, he himself wasn't in a position to dictate the outcome of races as in winning races, for me that's not having a title capable car.
I never said title capable I said TITLE CHALLENGING. Which the car factually actually did.

Regardless, I made the proposition so I'm setting the parameters for myself in thinking that.

I'm happy to have a conversation about it but if you're starting point is so extreme as to deny things that we actually saw happen then there really is little point.
I see your point now but that was somewhat gifted to Kubica, did he have fair chance in the car he had, I would say no, I thought that was the point of Ricciardo being given a title capable car and then we're into deep semantics into exactly what challenging is, Kubica won one race, Ricciardo won 3 races, Kubica went to the last 2 races, Ricciardo the last 3 races, the more unfortunate part for Ricciardo was that the faster car/drivers didn't mess up as much.

I just think it's semantics of the points scored and not the quality of the car, to say that Kubica had a title challenging car and Ricciardo didn't, I think is not fair on Kubica, it suggests that Kubica got his chance but he didn't take it, the reality of the performance of Kubica's car is one win and a 39% podium rate, Ricciardo 3 wins and a 42% podium rate.

It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
I mean, yes that's the whole point. Had Ricciardo driven a faster car he wouldn't qualify.

But he hasn't.
He still would qualify because it's also reliant on both Max and Hamilton messing up which isn't happening.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:03 pm

He relied on the faster cars messing up to have any kind of chance, his destiny was not in his own hands, he himself wasn't in a position to dictate the outcome of races as in winning races, for me that's not having a title capable car.
I never said title capable I said TITLE CHALLENGING. Which the car factually actually did.

Regardless, I made the proposition so I'm setting the parameters for myself in thinking that.

I'm happy to have a conversation about it but if you're starting point is so extreme as to deny things that we actually saw happen then there really is little point.
I see your point now but that was somewhat gifted to Kubica, did he have fair chance in the car he had, I would say no, I thought that was the point of Ricciardo being given a title capable car and then we're into deep semantics into exactly what challenging is, Kubica won one race, Ricciardo won 3 races, Kubica went to the last 2 races, Ricciardo the last 3 races, the more unfortunate part for Ricciardo was that the faster car/drivers didn't mess up as much.

I just think it's semantics of the points scored and not the quality of the car, to say that Kubica had a title challenging car and Ricciardo didn't, I think is not fair on Kubica, it suggests that Kubica got his chance but he didn't take it, the reality of the performance of Kubica's car is one win and a 39% podium rate, Ricciardo 3 wins and a 42% podium rate.

It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
I mean, yes that's the whole point. Had Ricciardo driven a faster car he wouldn't qualify.

But he hasn't.
He still would qualify because it's also reliant on both Max and Hamilton messing up which isn't happening.
Sure, so as it stands he's never driven a car capable of contending for the championship.

I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you. Sometimes it feels like you just want to argue for the sake of it.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm
It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
Giving McLaren a bonus 2 tenths of qualifying pace and assuming they hold roughly that speed in the races, we get:

Bahrain: P5 in qualifying, P4 in the race (+2 / +0)
Imola: P4 in qualifying, P2 in the race (* / + 1)
Portugal: P5 in qualifying, P5 in the race (+2 / +0)
Spain: P4 in qualifying, P5 in the race (+3 / +1)
Monaco: P2 in qualifying, likely race win (+3 / +2)
Azerbaijan: P3 in qualifying (P6 after penalty), likely P4 in the race (+3 / +1)
France: P8 in qualifying, P5 in the race (+0 / +0)
Styria: P2 in qualifying, likely P5 in the race (+2 / +0)
Austria: Pole position, P2 in the race (+1 / +1)
Britain: P4 in qualifying, likely P5 in the sprint, P5 in the race (+2 / +0 / +0)

That's still a largely midfield car, as you suspected. They would have one pole (two, if Lando delivered on his lap in Imola), and probably a single inherited race win from Ferrari when Leclerc had his DNS in Monaco.

Essentially, this is a demonstration of the still-sizable gap from the top of the midfield to the contenders. Giving McLaren two tenths would establish them as the clear 'gap team' between Mercedes / Red Bull and the rest, but it wouldn't be enough on race day to bridge that gap.
Once again I feel the need to applaud you for your legwork. :thumbup:

This is basically what Kubica had to contend with, it was only the hapless driving of drivers in faster cars that kept him in contention. It's interesting to look at how Kubica qualified in the first 10 races even though it's the horrible race fuelled qualifying, using your figures we see Norris with an average of 3.8, so:-

P2
P6
P1
P4
P5
P5
P2
P7
P5 (Heidfeld, Kubica wasn't able to take part in Q3, Heidfeld recorded a near identical time to Kubica in Q2)
P7

This gives Kubica an average of 4.4, 2 tenths was an off the cuff number from me, perhaps then 0.15s might have been more accurate.

So for the difference of 0.15s we might perceive that Kubica had fair chance of a title whereas Ricciardo never did, what we perhaps need to happen here is for Max and Hamilton to keep on crashing into one another, who knows it might happen, bringing Norris into outside title contention then Norris gets driver of the year like Kubica did in 2008.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:32 pm
There hasn't really been any path for Ricciardo to ever find himself into a championship challenging seat. No path to Mercedes, or the 17/18 Ferrari.

He could have stayed 8 seasons at Red Bull to finally get a championship capable car, but that is pretty unprecedented to be at a team that long that isn't challenging (has any supposed "top" driver ever spent 7yrs with a non challenging team, without moving?). Plus there is the Verstappen factor and how Red Bull would always build the team around their golden boy (with justification). I do think Ricciardo is too good a driver to be "Webber'd".

It is just a symptom of the era. The sports been very stagnant in terms of team performance and available seats.
Was Renault ever going to be a better bet than Red Bull?

There's probably more than one reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull but one reason for me is that he ran away from a faster driver and in the end he ran away from a WDC capable car, I have little sympathy.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:35 pm


I never said title capable I said TITLE CHALLENGING. Which the car factually actually did.

Regardless, I made the proposition so I'm setting the parameters for myself in thinking that.

I'm happy to have a conversation about it but if you're starting point is so extreme as to deny things that we actually saw happen then there really is little point.
I see your point now but that was somewhat gifted to Kubica, did he have fair chance in the car he had, I would say no, I thought that was the point of Ricciardo being given a title capable car and then we're into deep semantics into exactly what challenging is, Kubica won one race, Ricciardo won 3 races, Kubica went to the last 2 races, Ricciardo the last 3 races, the more unfortunate part for Ricciardo was that the faster car/drivers didn't mess up as much.

I just think it's semantics of the points scored and not the quality of the car, to say that Kubica had a title challenging car and Ricciardo didn't, I think is not fair on Kubica, it suggests that Kubica got his chance but he didn't take it, the reality of the performance of Kubica's car is one win and a 39% podium rate, Ricciardo 3 wins and a 42% podium rate.

It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
I mean, yes that's the whole point. Had Ricciardo driven a faster car he wouldn't qualify.

But he hasn't.
He still would qualify because it's also reliant on both Max and Hamilton messing up which isn't happening.
Sure, so as it stands he's never driven a car capable of contending for the championship.

I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you. Sometimes it feels like you just want to argue for the sake of it.
Not at all, you think somehow that Kubica had fair chance in the 3rd best car because he got reasonable close unlike Ricciardo, but when we crunch the numbers we see that Ricciardo this season has a car little slower, that's credit to Kubica he was able to do better than Ricciardo but we will lament that Ricciardo is the greatest driver never to be in a title contending car.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by tootsie323 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:41 pm
Badgeronimous wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:32 pm
There hasn't really been any path for Ricciardo to ever find himself into a championship challenging seat. No path to Mercedes, or the 17/18 Ferrari.

He could have stayed 8 seasons at Red Bull to finally get a championship capable car, but that is pretty unprecedented to be at a team that long that isn't challenging (has any supposed "top" driver ever spent 7yrs with a non challenging team, without moving?). Plus there is the Verstappen factor and how Red Bull would always build the team around their golden boy (with justification). I do think Ricciardo is too good a driver to be "Webber'd".

It is just a symptom of the era. The sports been very stagnant in terms of team performance and available seats.
Was Renault ever going to be a better bet than Red Bull?

There's probably more than one reason why Ricciardo left Red Bull but one reason for me is that he ran away from a faster driver and in the end he ran away from a WDC capable car, I have little sympathy.
I think rather he walked away from a team that had put its eggs in the other driver's basket.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm

I see your point now but that was somewhat gifted to Kubica, did he have fair chance in the car he had, I would say no, I thought that was the point of Ricciardo being given a title capable car and then we're into deep semantics into exactly what challenging is, Kubica won one race, Ricciardo won 3 races, Kubica went to the last 2 races, Ricciardo the last 3 races, the more unfortunate part for Ricciardo was that the faster car/drivers didn't mess up as much.

I just think it's semantics of the points scored and not the quality of the car, to say that Kubica had a title challenging car and Ricciardo didn't, I think is not fair on Kubica, it suggests that Kubica got his chance but he didn't take it, the reality of the performance of Kubica's car is one win and a 39% podium rate, Ricciardo 3 wins and a 42% podium rate.

It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
I mean, yes that's the whole point. Had Ricciardo driven a faster car he wouldn't qualify.

But he hasn't.
He still would qualify because it's also reliant on both Max and Hamilton messing up which isn't happening.
Sure, so as it stands he's never driven a car capable of contending for the championship.

I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you. Sometimes it feels like you just want to argue for the sake of it.
Not at all, you think somehow that Kubica had fair chance in the 3rd best car because he got reasonable close unlike Ricciardo, but when we crunch the numbers we see that Ricciardo this season has a car little slower, that's credit to Kubica he was able to do better than Ricciardo but we will lament that Ricciardo is the greatest driver never to be in a title contending car.
I know Kubica had a championship contending car because he literally did just that in it. That's factual so lets just park that.

Ricciardo this season has a car that is slower (as you say yourself) given that he has not yet had a car capable of challenging for the championship.

Given that earlier in the thread you trying to argue Kubica's car was too slow to be considered championship contending, despite the fact it did, it's odd now that you seem to have done an about turn and are now trying to frame a car slower than that should be considered championship contending.

I really don't know how I can explain quite a basic concept any clearer. So if you still don't understand I suggest we leave it here.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Vettel Fan »

Yes, his career ended when he left Red Bull. Never should have ran from Max.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Vettel Fan wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:00 pm
Never should have ran from Max.
Ricciardo ran away from being Webber'd which seemed inevitable after Baku 2018. Most would argue that such a role is beneath him as he has very good if not elite pace.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:54 pm


I mean, yes that's the whole point. Had Ricciardo driven a faster car he wouldn't qualify.

But he hasn't.
He still would qualify because it's also reliant on both Max and Hamilton messing up which isn't happening.
Sure, so as it stands he's never driven a car capable of contending for the championship.

I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you. Sometimes it feels like you just want to argue for the sake of it.
Not at all, you think somehow that Kubica had fair chance in the 3rd best car because he got reasonable close unlike Ricciardo, but when we crunch the numbers we see that Ricciardo this season has a car little slower, that's credit to Kubica he was able to do better than Ricciardo but we will lament that Ricciardo is the greatest driver never to be in a title contending car.
I know Kubica had a championship contending car because he literally did just that in it. That's factual so lets just park that.

Ricciardo this season has a car that is slower (as you say yourself) given that he has not yet had a car capable of challenging for the championship.

Given that earlier in the thread you trying to argue Kubica's car was too slow to be considered championship contending, despite the fact it did, it's odd now that you seem to have done an about turn and are now trying to frame a car slower than that should be considered championship contending.

I really don't know how I can explain quite a basic concept any clearer. So if you still don't understand I suggest we leave it here.
Again his car was little better than Ricciardo's car is this season, Kubica got driver of the year because he was viewed as challenging for the title in a none title capable car otherwise finishing 4th in the WDC is in itself somewhat nondescript.

We are looking to credit Ricciardo as the greatest driver to not have a car challenge for a title as some kind of honour when other drivers have done so in similar cars, we might look at what Alonso did in 2012 as well, does Ricciardo in that car challenge for the title, if not then that's another car classed as a none title challenging car.

I'm not sure what kind of praise we are looking to place on Ricciardo, he's slipped down the pecking order and now looks more like a tier 2 driver, the greatest tier 2 driver never to have a title challenging car, today I'd be more concerned about drivers like Leclerc, Russell and Norris getting that opportunity.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

I don't think Ricciardo is done. He's every bit as great as he's always been, but something about the Mclaren car doesn't suit his preferences, though he's grown faster over the course of this season. Of note, Norris has is now in the third evolution of that car and has grown with it season to season, and I think that may be why there's such a difference between them. Though again, Ricciardo has started to claw his way closer to that crafty little Norris.

Something about that kid really speaks to me. He's a breath of fresh air attitude wise and a sensational driver.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: Leclerc :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

Vettel Fan wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 2:00 pm
Yes, his career ended when he left Red Bull. Never should have ran from Max.
He didn't run from Max, he was disgusted by the blatant lack of loyalty and band wagon culture within the team. He witnessed it happen when he bested Vettel, which saw him become their priority and he did a stellar job for them and then Max arrived and he quickly became their priority over Ricciardo.

These guys are human and do have feelings and sentiments and things like this do affect them emotionally. We never saw Ricciardo run away from a single fight with Verstappen on track, so let's quit this absurd notion that he ran from Max.
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: Leclerc :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:51 am

He still would qualify because it's also reliant on both Max and Hamilton messing up which isn't happening.
Sure, so as it stands he's never driven a car capable of contending for the championship.

I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you. Sometimes it feels like you just want to argue for the sake of it.
Not at all, you think somehow that Kubica had fair chance in the 3rd best car because he got reasonable close unlike Ricciardo, but when we crunch the numbers we see that Ricciardo this season has a car little slower, that's credit to Kubica he was able to do better than Ricciardo but we will lament that Ricciardo is the greatest driver never to be in a title contending car.
I know Kubica had a championship contending car because he literally did just that in it. That's factual so lets just park that.

Ricciardo this season has a car that is slower (as you say yourself) given that he has not yet had a car capable of challenging for the championship.

Given that earlier in the thread you trying to argue Kubica's car was too slow to be considered championship contending, despite the fact it did, it's odd now that you seem to have done an about turn and are now trying to frame a car slower than that should be considered championship contending.

I really don't know how I can explain quite a basic concept any clearer. So if you still don't understand I suggest we leave it here.
Again his car was little better than Ricciardo's car is this season, Kubica got driver of the year because he was viewed as challenging for the title in a none title capable car otherwise finishing 4th in the WDC is in itself somewhat nondescript.

We are looking to credit Ricciardo as the greatest driver to not have a car challenge for a title as some kind of honour when other drivers have done so in similar cars, we might look at what Alonso did in 2012 as well, does Ricciardo in that car challenge for the title, if not then that's another car classed as a none title challenging car.

I'm not sure what kind of praise we are looking to place on Ricciardo, he's slipped down the pecking order and now looks more like a tier 2 driver, the greatest tier 2 driver never to have a title challenging car, today I'd be more concerned about drivers like Leclerc, Russell and Norris getting that opportunity.
But you wanted to DSQ Kubica's car as not competitive enough. Now you admit Ricciardo's car is a little worse but somehow it should count. You can't have it both ways.

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.

That isn't a credit over Kubica because Kubica isn't in that category.

You might as well complain that crediting Moss as the greatest to never win a WDC is unfair on Hamilton because he has won one so can't qualify. It's nuts.

Edit - If it's easier for you I would also say that Ricciardo is the best to never take a championship to the penultimate race. Although I think that's less clear cut.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by IDFD »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:50 pm

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.
Please don't say never.

I've got a lot of hope for McLaren and Ric/Lando next season. McLaren are on the right trajectory seem to have the right people in place now and a bit of a reset next season could have them right up there. I'm not losing faith in Ric or McLaren yet.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by oz_karter »

I agree, never say never.

Jenson Button was a surprise WDC in 2009. I don't think anyone ever doubted him, but until he was in that BrawnGP a driver's title looked like a distant prospect.

Another example would be Mark Webber. He bounced around a few midfield teams and got unlucky at Williams who went suddenly downhill the year he arrived. Eventually Red Bull came good and he was a good shot for the title in 2010.

2022 has potential to shake up the order and we never know where Dan might find himself. I think this year will be the anomaly of his career.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Jezza13 »

I'm hoping this years an anomaly for him & a case of just not, for some reason, adapting to the car, which one could argue he should be able to if he was a top driver.

If he can't at the very least keep up with Norris next year & even beat him, I think people would be entitled to review his position in the driver pecking order.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:51 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:59 am


Sure, so as it stands he's never driven a car capable of contending for the championship.

I'm at a loss as to why this is so difficult for you. Sometimes it feels like you just want to argue for the sake of it.
Not at all, you think somehow that Kubica had fair chance in the 3rd best car because he got reasonable close unlike Ricciardo, but when we crunch the numbers we see that Ricciardo this season has a car little slower, that's credit to Kubica he was able to do better than Ricciardo but we will lament that Ricciardo is the greatest driver never to be in a title contending car.
I know Kubica had a championship contending car because he literally did just that in it. That's factual so lets just park that.

Ricciardo this season has a car that is slower (as you say yourself) given that he has not yet had a car capable of challenging for the championship.

Given that earlier in the thread you trying to argue Kubica's car was too slow to be considered championship contending, despite the fact it did, it's odd now that you seem to have done an about turn and are now trying to frame a car slower than that should be considered championship contending.

I really don't know how I can explain quite a basic concept any clearer. So if you still don't understand I suggest we leave it here.
Again his car was little better than Ricciardo's car is this season, Kubica got driver of the year because he was viewed as challenging for the title in a none title capable car otherwise finishing 4th in the WDC is in itself somewhat nondescript.

We are looking to credit Ricciardo as the greatest driver to not have a car challenge for a title as some kind of honour when other drivers have done so in similar cars, we might look at what Alonso did in 2012 as well, does Ricciardo in that car challenge for the title, if not then that's another car classed as a none title challenging car.

I'm not sure what kind of praise we are looking to place on Ricciardo, he's slipped down the pecking order and now looks more like a tier 2 driver, the greatest tier 2 driver never to have a title challenging car, today I'd be more concerned about drivers like Leclerc, Russell and Norris getting that opportunity.
But you wanted to DSQ Kubica's car as not competitive enough. Now you admit Ricciardo's car is a little worse but somehow it should count. You can't have it both ways.

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.

That isn't a credit over Kubica because Kubica isn't in that category.

You might as well complain that crediting Moss as the greatest to never win a WDC is unfair on Hamilton because he has won one so can't qualify. It's nuts.

Edit - If it's easier for you I would also say that Ricciardo is the best to never take a championship to the penultimate race. Although I think that's less clear cut.
No I'm saying that if Kubica's car counts then so should Ricciardo's car, I think it's unfair that Kubica should be discounted because he himself was able to make the difference whilst Ricciardo couldn't.

I've the shown the numbers on how Kubica's car shouldn't be considered in itself as being a title contending car, his win and podium count is worse than Ricciardo's in 2014, while Ricciardo's present day car is only 0.15s slower in comparative terms.

For the last part I think it's very clear cut, as it stands today drivers like Leclerc, Russell, Norris and even Max have not taken the title down to the penultimate race, is Ricciardo better than these drivers.

I feel the statement is a day late and a dollar short, it would have had more substance if said last year.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by tootsie323 »

The primary reason for Kubica being in contention in 2008, for me, was the likes of Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen falling over themselves and each other. That BMW-Sauber should have been a contender but the team chose not to develop it.
Ricciardo's win count in 2014 was three, and all of those were down to misfortunes affecting the Mercedes drivers. Otherwise, he was simply best of the rest.
In short- I don't think that either driver had a title-contending car in those years but do think that both (yes, Ricciardo too) did a very good job.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:00 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:51 pm

Not at all, you think somehow that Kubica had fair chance in the 3rd best car because he got reasonable close unlike Ricciardo, but when we crunch the numbers we see that Ricciardo this season has a car little slower, that's credit to Kubica he was able to do better than Ricciardo but we will lament that Ricciardo is the greatest driver never to be in a title contending car.
I know Kubica had a championship contending car because he literally did just that in it. That's factual so lets just park that.

Ricciardo this season has a car that is slower (as you say yourself) given that he has not yet had a car capable of challenging for the championship.

Given that earlier in the thread you trying to argue Kubica's car was too slow to be considered championship contending, despite the fact it did, it's odd now that you seem to have done an about turn and are now trying to frame a car slower than that should be considered championship contending.

I really don't know how I can explain quite a basic concept any clearer. So if you still don't understand I suggest we leave it here.
Again his car was little better than Ricciardo's car is this season, Kubica got driver of the year because he was viewed as challenging for the title in a none title capable car otherwise finishing 4th in the WDC is in itself somewhat nondescript.

We are looking to credit Ricciardo as the greatest driver to not have a car challenge for a title as some kind of honour when other drivers have done so in similar cars, we might look at what Alonso did in 2012 as well, does Ricciardo in that car challenge for the title, if not then that's another car classed as a none title challenging car.

I'm not sure what kind of praise we are looking to place on Ricciardo, he's slipped down the pecking order and now looks more like a tier 2 driver, the greatest tier 2 driver never to have a title challenging car, today I'd be more concerned about drivers like Leclerc, Russell and Norris getting that opportunity.
But you wanted to DSQ Kubica's car as not competitive enough. Now you admit Ricciardo's car is a little worse but somehow it should count. You can't have it both ways.

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.

That isn't a credit over Kubica because Kubica isn't in that category.

You might as well complain that crediting Moss as the greatest to never win a WDC is unfair on Hamilton because he has won one so can't qualify. It's nuts.

Edit - If it's easier for you I would also say that Ricciardo is the best to never take a championship to the penultimate race. Although I think that's less clear cut.
No I'm saying that if Kubica's car counts then so should Ricciardo's car, I think it's unfair that Kubica should be discounted because he himself was able to make the difference whilst Ricciardo couldn't.

I've the shown the numbers on how Kubica's car shouldn't be considered in itself as being a title contending car, his win and podium count is worse than Ricciardo's in 2014, while Ricciardo's present day car is only 0.15s slower in comparative terms.

For the last part I think it's very clear cut, as it stands today drivers like Leclerc, Russell, Norris and even Max have not taken the title down to the penultimate race, is Ricciardo better than these drivers.

I feel the statement is a day late and a dollar short, it would have had more substance if said last year.
When assessing his whole career I'm not sure how much of a factor a handful of races are?

Kubica isn't being punished here. I'm not saying Ricciardo is better. He just doesn't qualify in that category.

I'm assuming the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen will get a championship contending car at some point. Looks like Verstappen already has. Norris and Russell probably will as well although right now they'd feature a lot lower in any greatest of all time list than Ricciardo. Not saying they aren't better though.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Harpo »

During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Harpo wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:00 pm


I know Kubica had a championship contending car because he literally did just that in it. That's factual so lets just park that.

Ricciardo this season has a car that is slower (as you say yourself) given that he has not yet had a car capable of challenging for the championship.

Given that earlier in the thread you trying to argue Kubica's car was too slow to be considered championship contending, despite the fact it did, it's odd now that you seem to have done an about turn and are now trying to frame a car slower than that should be considered championship contending.

I really don't know how I can explain quite a basic concept any clearer. So if you still don't understand I suggest we leave it here.
Again his car was little better than Ricciardo's car is this season, Kubica got driver of the year because he was viewed as challenging for the title in a none title capable car otherwise finishing 4th in the WDC is in itself somewhat nondescript.

We are looking to credit Ricciardo as the greatest driver to not have a car challenge for a title as some kind of honour when other drivers have done so in similar cars, we might look at what Alonso did in 2012 as well, does Ricciardo in that car challenge for the title, if not then that's another car classed as a none title challenging car.

I'm not sure what kind of praise we are looking to place on Ricciardo, he's slipped down the pecking order and now looks more like a tier 2 driver, the greatest tier 2 driver never to have a title challenging car, today I'd be more concerned about drivers like Leclerc, Russell and Norris getting that opportunity.
But you wanted to DSQ Kubica's car as not competitive enough. Now you admit Ricciardo's car is a little worse but somehow it should count. You can't have it both ways.

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.

That isn't a credit over Kubica because Kubica isn't in that category.

You might as well complain that crediting Moss as the greatest to never win a WDC is unfair on Hamilton because he has won one so can't qualify. It's nuts.

Edit - If it's easier for you I would also say that Ricciardo is the best to never take a championship to the penultimate race. Although I think that's less clear cut.
No I'm saying that if Kubica's car counts then so should Ricciardo's car, I think it's unfair that Kubica should be discounted because he himself was able to make the difference whilst Ricciardo couldn't.

I've the shown the numbers on how Kubica's car shouldn't be considered in itself as being a title contending car, his win and podium count is worse than Ricciardo's in 2014, while Ricciardo's present day car is only 0.15s slower in comparative terms.

For the last part I think it's very clear cut, as it stands today drivers like Leclerc, Russell, Norris and even Max have not taken the title down to the penultimate race, is Ricciardo better than these drivers.

I feel the statement is a day late and a dollar short, it would have had more substance if said last year.
When assessing his whole career I'm not sure how much of a factor a handful of races are?

Kubica isn't being punished here. I'm not saying Ricciardo is better. He just doesn't qualify in that category.

I'm assuming the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen will get a championship contending car at some point. Looks like Verstappen already has. Norris and Russell probably will as well although right now they'd feature a lot lower in any greatest of all time list than Ricciardo. Not saying they aren't better though.
Well presently it's 10 races and counting for Ricciardo, in respect to Kubica I was being pressured by another forumer to come up with a name and I instantly thought of Kubica but I also put in the caveat that he might have ended up in such a car if his career had not been cut short, he only had 4 years in the sport.

Then of course you countered that and my response was Kubica's car really any quicker than cars that Ricciardo had, I'm seeing all this as that Ricciardo deserves a better car than he's had thus far but Kubica didn't because he was able to achieve more than Ricciardo did with what he was given as in he was able to challenge for a title.

If we're looking to perceive Ricciardo as not being given fair chance of a title challenge then I believe Kubica wasn't given a fair chance either and is it fair he gets excluded because he over delivered in 2008, the greatest driver to have never challenged for a title I think kind of over eggs how good we want to perceive Ricciardo to be.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:17 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.
Are you not forgetting this year, Max and Perez?
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm

Again his car was little better than Ricciardo's car is this season, Kubica got driver of the year because he was viewed as challenging for the title in a none title capable car otherwise finishing 4th in the WDC is in itself somewhat nondescript.

We are looking to credit Ricciardo as the greatest driver to not have a car challenge for a title as some kind of honour when other drivers have done so in similar cars, we might look at what Alonso did in 2012 as well, does Ricciardo in that car challenge for the title, if not then that's another car classed as a none title challenging car.

I'm not sure what kind of praise we are looking to place on Ricciardo, he's slipped down the pecking order and now looks more like a tier 2 driver, the greatest tier 2 driver never to have a title challenging car, today I'd be more concerned about drivers like Leclerc, Russell and Norris getting that opportunity.
But you wanted to DSQ Kubica's car as not competitive enough. Now you admit Ricciardo's car is a little worse but somehow it should count. You can't have it both ways.

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.

That isn't a credit over Kubica because Kubica isn't in that category.

You might as well complain that crediting Moss as the greatest to never win a WDC is unfair on Hamilton because he has won one so can't qualify. It's nuts.

Edit - If it's easier for you I would also say that Ricciardo is the best to never take a championship to the penultimate race. Although I think that's less clear cut.
No I'm saying that if Kubica's car counts then so should Ricciardo's car, I think it's unfair that Kubica should be discounted because he himself was able to make the difference whilst Ricciardo couldn't.

I've the shown the numbers on how Kubica's car shouldn't be considered in itself as being a title contending car, his win and podium count is worse than Ricciardo's in 2014, while Ricciardo's present day car is only 0.15s slower in comparative terms.

For the last part I think it's very clear cut, as it stands today drivers like Leclerc, Russell, Norris and even Max have not taken the title down to the penultimate race, is Ricciardo better than these drivers.

I feel the statement is a day late and a dollar short, it would have had more substance if said last year.
When assessing his whole career I'm not sure how much of a factor a handful of races are?

Kubica isn't being punished here. I'm not saying Ricciardo is better. He just doesn't qualify in that category.

I'm assuming the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen will get a championship contending car at some point. Looks like Verstappen already has. Norris and Russell probably will as well although right now they'd feature a lot lower in any greatest of all time list than Ricciardo. Not saying they aren't better though.
Well presently it's 10 races and counting for Ricciardo, in respect to Kubica I was being pressured by another forumer to come up with a name and I instantly thought of Kubica but I also put in the caveat that he might have ended up in such a car if his career had not been cut short, he only had 4 years in the sport.

Then of course you countered that and my response was Kubica's car really any quicker than cars that Ricciardo had, I'm seeing all this as that Ricciardo deserves a better car than he's had thus far but Kubica didn't because he was able to achieve more than Ricciardo did with what he was given as in he was able to challenge for a title.

If we're looking to perceive Ricciardo as not being given fair chance of a title challenge then I believe Kubica wasn't given a fair chance either and is it fair he gets excluded because he over delivered in 2008, the greatest driver to have never challenged for a title I think kind of over eggs how good we want to perceive Ricciardo to be.

All of this can well be true and Ricciardo can be the best driver never to race a championship contending car.

Yeah peak Kubica is probably as good as peak Ricciardo. Just happens to be the case that Kubica doesn't qualify in this particular category. Doesn't even mean Kubica got a "fair chance". I've not claimed that.

You seem to be conflating an awful lot that I've not actually said. Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.

Excluding current drivers who is the best driver in your opinion to never take a championship to the penultimate round?

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:17 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.
Are you not forgetting this year, Max and Perez?
They haven't spent a year in a championship contending car yet.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.
I think it's very important to make the distinction between a circumstantial challenger and a bona fide challenger.

Kubica's 2008 challenge was firmly circumstantial. Hamilton and Massa were rather inconsistent throughout the season bringing the consistent finisher into play. The gap after Round 12 was too distant to be considered a genuine challenge, sure he was clinging on mathematically be not truly in contention.

I'd say Sainz, Kubica and Trulli can potentially challenge Ricciardo for his title of "best driver to not drive a title contending car".
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.
I think it's very important to make the distinction between a circumstantial challenger and a bona fide challenger.

Kubica's 2008 challenge was firmly circumstantial. Hamilton and Massa were rather inconsistent throughout the season bringing the consistent finisher into play. The gap after Round 12 was too distant to be considered a genuine challenge, sure he was clinging on mathematically be not truly in contention.

I'd say Sainz, Kubica and Trulli can potentially challenge Ricciardo for his title of "best driver to not drive a title contending car".
I said greatest not best. Two different things. For example I think Alonso is better (based on their entire careers rather than right now) than Hamilton, but Hamilton is no doubt greater.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:15 pm
I said greatest not best. Two different things. For example I think Alonso is better (based on their entire careers rather than right now) than Hamilton, but Hamilton is no doubt greater.
On a purely reputational level surely Stefan Bellof must be a contender then.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Exediron »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:50 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.
I think it's very important to make the distinction between a circumstantial challenger and a bona fide challenger.

Kubica's 2008 challenge was firmly circumstantial. Hamilton and Massa were rather inconsistent throughout the season bringing the consistent finisher into play. The gap after Round 12 was too distant to be considered a genuine challenge, sure he was clinging on mathematically be not truly in contention.
That opens up the can of worms about circumstantial WDCs, however. Seeing as it's entirely possible to win the WDC by pure circumstance, it must be possible to also challenge for it by circumstance.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Exediron wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:00 pm
That opens up the can of worms about circumstantial WDCs, however. Seeing as it's entirely possible to win the WDC by pure circumstance, it must be possible to also challenge for it by circumstance.
cough Keke Rosberg cough

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:17 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.
:thumbup:

10 in 11 seasons - less than one per season. To me, a clear indication for a severe lack of competitive balance.

mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:15 pm
I said greatest not best. Two different things. For example I think Alonso is better (based on their entire careers rather than right now) than Hamilton, but Hamilton is no doubt greater.
On a purely reputational level surely Stefan Bellof must be a contender then.

If we were talking best perhaps. Greatest, I think requires a higher level of participation. That's up to the individual fan to judge though.

Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

I think Mikey is right here. It is difficult to think about a greater driver (different to better) that never had a championship contending car. I find it difficult to come up with names. Maybe, Hans-Joachim Stuck could be a candidate and I may need to check the cars that Chris Amon was driving. When we take reputation very general, drivers who did not have a good car in F1 but huge success elsewhere - like Bernd Schneider, Yannick Dalmas or (completely different again) Alex Zanardi - could be discussed. But it is difficult to look beyond Ricciardo here.

pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:41 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:50 pm


But you wanted to DSQ Kubica's car as not competitive enough. Now you admit Ricciardo's car is a little worse but somehow it should count. You can't have it both ways.

Ricciardo is, in my opinion by far the best driver that will never drive a car capable of challenging for the championship.

That isn't a credit over Kubica because Kubica isn't in that category.

You might as well complain that crediting Moss as the greatest to never win a WDC is unfair on Hamilton because he has won one so can't qualify. It's nuts.

Edit - If it's easier for you I would also say that Ricciardo is the best to never take a championship to the penultimate race. Although I think that's less clear cut.
No I'm saying that if Kubica's car counts then so should Ricciardo's car, I think it's unfair that Kubica should be discounted because he himself was able to make the difference whilst Ricciardo couldn't.

I've the shown the numbers on how Kubica's car shouldn't be considered in itself as being a title contending car, his win and podium count is worse than Ricciardo's in 2014, while Ricciardo's present day car is only 0.15s slower in comparative terms.

For the last part I think it's very clear cut, as it stands today drivers like Leclerc, Russell, Norris and even Max have not taken the title down to the penultimate race, is Ricciardo better than these drivers.

I feel the statement is a day late and a dollar short, it would have had more substance if said last year.
When assessing his whole career I'm not sure how much of a factor a handful of races are?

Kubica isn't being punished here. I'm not saying Ricciardo is better. He just doesn't qualify in that category.

I'm assuming the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen will get a championship contending car at some point. Looks like Verstappen already has. Norris and Russell probably will as well although right now they'd feature a lot lower in any greatest of all time list than Ricciardo. Not saying they aren't better though.
Well presently it's 10 races and counting for Ricciardo, in respect to Kubica I was being pressured by another forumer to come up with a name and I instantly thought of Kubica but I also put in the caveat that he might have ended up in such a car if his career had not been cut short, he only had 4 years in the sport.

Then of course you countered that and my response was Kubica's car really any quicker than cars that Ricciardo had, I'm seeing all this as that Ricciardo deserves a better car than he's had thus far but Kubica didn't because he was able to achieve more than Ricciardo did with what he was given as in he was able to challenge for a title.

If we're looking to perceive Ricciardo as not being given fair chance of a title challenge then I believe Kubica wasn't given a fair chance either and is it fair he gets excluded because he over delivered in 2008, the greatest driver to have never challenged for a title I think kind of over eggs how good we want to perceive Ricciardo to be.

All of this can well be true and Ricciardo can be the best driver never to race a championship contending car.

Yeah peak Kubica is probably as good as peak Ricciardo. Just happens to be the case that Kubica doesn't qualify in this particular category. Doesn't even mean Kubica got a "fair chance". I've not claimed that.

You seem to be conflating an awful lot that I've not actually said. Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.

Excluding current drivers who is the best driver in your opinion to never take a championship to the penultimate round?
The car itself was never capable, in such a car this year Kubica would never get a sniff at the title, surely we're making a case for Ricciado being the greatest driver never having being given a fair chance of the title, I don't believe Kubica was ever given fair chance.

For the rest I go back to my original post that F1 has been around for 70 years, I've not been alive for 70 years so ultimately I don't know. In regards to Ricciardo you seem to not realise how much his stock has dropped unless he can recover that then it perhaps brings more drivers into the mix.
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pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:17 pm
Harpo wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:11 pm
During the last ten/twelve years how many drivers got a "championship contending car" ? Some happy years four, or else only two. If you don't take into account the obvious subservient n° 2 drivers, it reduces the number to 1 or 2.
Such is the state of F1 that I wouldn't bet on any of the current "best drivers" (considered as...) being sure to spend at least one year during their F1 carreer in a "championship contending car" (except Verstappen this year). And this when they all get an F1 career far longer than before.
In the last 10/12 years a few.

Since 2010 -

Vettel
Webber
Alonso
Massa
Hamilton
Button
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Rosberg
Bottas

Since 2014 it's been extremely few though. Just 5 in fact Vettel, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas. And three of those had already been in championship contending cars.

Since 2014 F1 has gone through an unprecedented period of stability with the same teams always at the top and The teams that have been contending have been very cautious about changing drivers.

We've basically had an era where it's all but impossible for a driver to push their way into a championship contending car no matter how good they were.
Are you not forgetting this year, Max and Perez?
They haven't spent a year in a championship contending car yet.
You think this years Red Bull will ever be described as not being a championship contending car?
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pokerman
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:47 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:15 pm
I said greatest not best. Two different things. For example I think Alonso is better (based on their entire careers rather than right now) than Hamilton, but Hamilton is no doubt greater.
On a purely reputational level surely Stefan Bellof must be a contender then.
Yeah I thought of Bellof as well, he only had one season in F1.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 101 (1st)
Podiums: 175 (1st)


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mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:48 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:34 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:29 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:21 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:41 am

No I'm saying that if Kubica's car counts then so should Ricciardo's car, I think it's unfair that Kubica should be discounted because he himself was able to make the difference whilst Ricciardo couldn't.

I've the shown the numbers on how Kubica's car shouldn't be considered in itself as being a title contending car, his win and podium count is worse than Ricciardo's in 2014, while Ricciardo's present day car is only 0.15s slower in comparative terms.

For the last part I think it's very clear cut, as it stands today drivers like Leclerc, Russell, Norris and even Max have not taken the title down to the penultimate race, is Ricciardo better than these drivers.

I feel the statement is a day late and a dollar short, it would have had more substance if said last year.
When assessing his whole career I'm not sure how much of a factor a handful of races are?

Kubica isn't being punished here. I'm not saying Ricciardo is better. He just doesn't qualify in that category.

I'm assuming the likes of Leclerc and Verstappen will get a championship contending car at some point. Looks like Verstappen already has. Norris and Russell probably will as well although right now they'd feature a lot lower in any greatest of all time list than Ricciardo. Not saying they aren't better though.
Well presently it's 10 races and counting for Ricciardo, in respect to Kubica I was being pressured by another forumer to come up with a name and I instantly thought of Kubica but I also put in the caveat that he might have ended up in such a car if his career had not been cut short, he only had 4 years in the sport.

Then of course you countered that and my response was Kubica's car really any quicker than cars that Ricciardo had, I'm seeing all this as that Ricciardo deserves a better car than he's had thus far but Kubica didn't because he was able to achieve more than Ricciardo did with what he was given as in he was able to challenge for a title.

If we're looking to perceive Ricciardo as not being given fair chance of a title challenge then I believe Kubica wasn't given a fair chance either and is it fair he gets excluded because he over delivered in 2008, the greatest driver to have never challenged for a title I think kind of over eggs how good we want to perceive Ricciardo to be.

All of this can well be true and Ricciardo can be the best driver never to race a championship contending car.

Yeah peak Kubica is probably as good as peak Ricciardo. Just happens to be the case that Kubica doesn't qualify in this particular category. Doesn't even mean Kubica got a "fair chance". I've not claimed that.

You seem to be conflating an awful lot that I've not actually said. Bottom line Kubica drove a car capable of challenging the championship and Ricciardo hasn't.

Excluding current drivers who is the best driver in your opinion to never take a championship to the penultimate round?
The car itself was never capable, in such a car this year Kubica would never get a sniff at the title, surely we're making a case for Ricciado being the greatest driver never having being given a fair chance of the title, I don't believe Kubica was ever given fair chance.

For the rest I go back to my original post that F1 has been around for 70 years, I've not been alive for 70 years so ultimately I don't know. In regards to Ricciardo you seem to not realise how much his stock has dropped unless he can recover that then it perhaps brings more drivers into the mix.
No. That isn't the case I'm making at all. I'm being quite specific. I'm saying Ricciardo is the greatest driver to never drive a championship contending car. That's it.

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