Is Ricciardo done?

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schumilegend
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Is Ricciardo done?

Post by schumilegend »

After 2014, Daniel Ricciardo was regarded as one of the top 2-3 drivers and was held in high regard atleast for a few years.. But the arrival of Max spelt the beginning of hid downfall..By the second year he was clearly in shade of Max..After that he has never really looked top tier material and now risks becoming a journeyman driver like Weber.. So is Daniel Ricciardo done?

mikeyg123
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

schumilegend wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:00 pm
After 2014, Daniel Ricciardo was regarded as one of the top 2-3 drivers and was held in high regard atleast for a few years.. But the arrival of Max spelt the beginning of hid downfall..By the second year he was clearly in shade of Max..After that he has never really looked top tier material and now risks becoming a journeyman driver like Weber.. So is Daniel Ricciardo done?
I don't think so.

No, he isn't as good as Max but then nobody is. Seeing Max miles ahead of a known quantity like Perez keeps Ricciardo's stock high. I think people will be willing to forgive him 2021.

That said 2022 is crucial for Ricciardo. Both in terms of his own performance and the teams. He needs to at least be able to match Norris and he needs McLaren to nail the new regs and produce a championship winning contending car.

If they don't Ricciardo will very likely end up by far the greatest ever driver to never drive a car capable of making a championship run.

Yeboah24
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Yeboah24 »

Im going to say no, just because the same question might have been asked about hamilton after 2011. He could click with next years mclaren and destroy everyone. If after 2022 norris is still putting manner on him in the new era, yes done

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Not yet.

He is starting to get some momentum behind him but Lando does look quicker for now.

Maybe Danny has just peaked already and hit his psychological wall that he can't overcome?
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Exediron »

No, although he may be done in context of being discussed among the true elite of the sport. That's a very small category, and has no room for anyone who has been proven significantly slower than another driver in it.

To many people he was already done in that regard after 2018, but there was enough doubt about it becoming Max's team, terrible reliability, ready to check out, etc. to keep him in contention. Being beaten quite clearly now by another driver will shift the balance.

But he's still nowhere near to having regressed to journeyman level. If anything, we should be pondering whether Norris has emerged as a truly elite driver, not writing off Ricciardo.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by IDFD »

For me as you say Exediron with Sainz performances against Leclerc new to the team. Norris is going to be one of the top guys for years.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by BMWSauber84 »

I wouldn't say he's done. A strong end to the season would shift the narrative towards him just having struggled to adapt to the McLaren and a settled within the team Norris having got the jump on him. He still has credit in the bank but absolutely has to beat Norris next season I feel to get some 'top driver' credibility back.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by oz_karter »

Kind of weird to see this thread just after he qualified 2 thousandths of a second off Lando at the last GP. His race pace wasn't quite there but that's actually a reversal of previous GPs.

The car clearly doesn't suit his natural driving style, we know that. McLaren aren't going to be willing to spend a lot of time or development on the 2021 car as 2022 is completely new.

He just came off a season with multiple podiums for Renault where he was also significantly ahead of his teammate.

This year might not go very well for him, but 2022 is a new car and hopefully we see it be a better match for him.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by F1Tyrant »

2022 is make or break for him. Ricciardo might get dumped by McLaren even if well matched with Norris, they are paying him a decent wage for little gain.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Ricciardo is taking a colossal beating like Vettel did last year, Vettel was seen as one of the top guys after 2019 and fell out of the top 10 the year after, Ricciardo presently can't be seen as a top 10 driver, Norris will be probably get rated at #5 if it stays like this and Ricciardo is 3 tenths slower.

The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by IDFD »

Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by carvala »

Ricciardo wants to drink from his shoe, he'd better do that anytime soon. Otherwise the team may give him the boot. That may be too much to swallow.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:19 pm
Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.
Yes that would be Alonso, if he's back to his best then Lando has to do a bit more for me to prove he's better.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Schermerhorn »

IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:19 pm
Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.
Charles still makes too many mistakes for most to consider him an elite driver. His speed is there though. It'll be interesting to see how close Sainz is to him next year once he's properly settled in to Ferrari.

For me personally, Sainz, is still the hidden diamond of F1.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Invade »

Schermerhorn wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:58 pm
IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:19 pm
Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.
Charles still makes too many mistakes for most to consider him an elite driver. His speed is there though. It'll be interesting to see how close Sainz is to him next year once he's properly settled in to Ferrari.

For me personally, Sainz, is still the hidden diamond of F1.
What is hidden about him, exactly.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I said I'm not so sure, F1 has been around for 70 years now.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by tootsie323 »

Invade wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:58 pm
IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:19 pm
Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.
Charles still makes too many mistakes for most to consider him an elite driver. His speed is there though. It'll be interesting to see how close Sainz is to him next year once he's properly settled in to Ferrari.

For me personally, Sainz, is still the hidden diamond of F1.
What is hidden about him, exactly.
I get where Schermerhorn is coming from. Sainz has appeared, at least to me, to quietly manage decent results and, whilst a lot of early-season talk was about the likes of Alonso, Ricciardo and Vettel struggling to adjust to their new cars, Sainz was simply getting on with it.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
There isn't any jump out better.

He has never been in a car that even had an outside, but still realistic, chance of a title.

For a guy with as many wins and podiums, its unusual.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
Ricciardo is taking a colossal beating like Vettel did last year, Vettel was seen as one of the top guys after 2019 and fell out of the top 10 the year after, Ricciardo presently can't be seen as a top 10 driver, Norris will be probably get rated at #5 if it stays like this and Ricciardo is 3 tenths slower.

The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Which better driver has never been in a championship contending car?

I can say it confidently because I don't think there is anyone close. In no other era could a driver as good as Ricciardo end up never even lucking into a season in a car with even an outside chance of the championship. We've never had a period with so little competition at the top end of the grid before.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by SlipstreamF1 »

Ricciardo demolished Vettel who we thought was one of the best drivers ever and he did it in a new car. So we assumed Ricciardo was in a league of his own. Until a green Verstappen held his own against him and slightly beat him in his 3rd year. I guess we have to wonder how good was he really. He never had a problem qualifying even against Verstappen. Verstappen has improved more since so has Daniel regressed? Or is it that Lando is on Max's level, maybe even faster. It sure has been an interesting year with all these subplots.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Kubica was able to stay in contention with only two races to go. That for me is a car capable of mounting a championship challenge. He was only 12 points down going into the last two races. I am classing that as a championship contending car.

Not the case for Ricciardo in 2014. His car was 3rd best but miles away from the championship.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:16 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm


Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Kubica was able to stay in contention with only two races to go. That for me is a car capable of mounting a championship challenge. He was only 12 points down going into the last two races. I am classing that as a championship contending car.

Not the case for Ricciardo in 2014. His car was 3rd best but miles away from the championship.
Ricciardo was still in contention with 3 races to go helped by Abu Dhoable.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Badgeronimous »

Kubica arguably also never had a credible championship winning car, but his career was cut short.

This is probably the 7th or 8th season Ricciardo has been considered a top driver - its unusual in the history of the sport for a top driver to go that long without ever getting a go in a championship capable seat. However the 2010-2020 was far from a typical era with car dominance and available seats.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:27 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:16 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm

I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Kubica was able to stay in contention with only two races to go. That for me is a car capable of mounting a championship challenge. He was only 12 points down going into the last two races. I am classing that as a championship contending car.

Not the case for Ricciardo in 2014. His car was 3rd best but miles away from the championship.
Ricciardo was still in contention with 3 races to go helped by Abu Dhoable.
I'm not sure being 70ish points back with three races to go can be seen as remotely the same thing as 12 (Lets call it 30 in new money) behind with two races to go.

Anyway it was my assertion and when I made it I certainly considered seasons where drivers actually challenged for the championship like Kubica were seasons where they have a championship contending car.

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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Badgeronimous wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:38 pm
Kubica arguably also never had a credible championship winning car, but his career was cut short.

This is probably the 7th or 8th season Ricciardo has been considered a top driver - its unusual in the history of the sport for a top driver to go that long without ever getting a go in a championship capable seat. However the 2010-2020 was far from a typical era with car dominance and available seats.
It depends what you consider a top driver to be, Ricciardo was a top driver for 4 years in my book, the year after he was being fast tracked to being a #2 driver in a top team so left to be a #1 driver in a midfield team.
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:27 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:16 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm


Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Kubica was able to stay in contention with only two races to go. That for me is a car capable of mounting a championship challenge. He was only 12 points down going into the last two races. I am classing that as a championship contending car.

Not the case for Ricciardo in 2014. His car was 3rd best but miles away from the championship.
Ricciardo was still in contention with 3 races to go helped by Abu Dhoable.
I'm not sure being 70ish points back with three races to go can be seen as remotely the same thing as 12 (Lets call it 30 in new money) behind with two races to go.

Anyway it was my assertion and when I made it I certainly considered seasons where drivers actually challenged for the championship like Kubica were seasons where they have a championship contending car.
Well that's the gap Vettel was behind in 2017 and 2018 with 3 races to go, both seasons Vettel was seen to have a title contending car, this is were we can get to when we use points without context, can a car that had one lucky win all season be seen as a title contending car?
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Johnson
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Johnson »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:50 pm
The lifeline for Ricciardo is a totally new car for next year because he's clearly struggling with the car presently, to say the greatest driver never to make a title run with the limitations that he has, I'm not so sure.
Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...

mikeyg123
Posts: 19745
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:49 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:27 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:16 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm

In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Kubica was able to stay in contention with only two races to go. That for me is a car capable of mounting a championship challenge. He was only 12 points down going into the last two races. I am classing that as a championship contending car.

Not the case for Ricciardo in 2014. His car was 3rd best but miles away from the championship.
Ricciardo was still in contention with 3 races to go helped by Abu Dhoable.
I'm not sure being 70ish points back with three races to go can be seen as remotely the same thing as 12 (Lets call it 30 in new money) behind with two races to go.

Anyway it was my assertion and when I made it I certainly considered seasons where drivers actually challenged for the championship like Kubica were seasons where they have a championship contending car.
Well that's the gap Vettel was behind in 2017 and 2018 with 3 races to go, both seasons Vettel was seen to have a title contending car, this is were we can get to when we use points without context, can a car that had one lucky win all season be seen as a title contending car?
Yes, given the fact it's literally contending for the championship.

Ricciardo could never have done that in any car he's driven in.

User avatar
Johnson
Posts: 1913
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:20 am

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Johnson »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:49 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:54 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:27 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:16 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm

In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Kubica was able to stay in contention with only two races to go. That for me is a car capable of mounting a championship challenge. He was only 12 points down going into the last two races. I am classing that as a championship contending car.

Not the case for Ricciardo in 2014. His car was 3rd best but miles away from the championship.
Ricciardo was still in contention with 3 races to go helped by Abu Dhoable.
I'm not sure being 70ish points back with three races to go can be seen as remotely the same thing as 12 (Lets call it 30 in new money) behind with two races to go.

Anyway it was my assertion and when I made it I certainly considered seasons where drivers actually challenged for the championship like Kubica were seasons where they have a championship contending car.
Well that's the gap Vettel was behind in 2017 and 2018 with 3 races to go, both seasons Vettel was seen to have a title contending car, this is were we can get to when we use points without context, can a car that had one lucky win all season be seen as a title contending car?
Vettel lead the WDC for the first 12 races of 2017 and fell away. Kubica lead the WDC himself at the midpoint. It is possible to challenge for a WDC in a car that does not regularly win races, especially if the cars winning races retire a lot.

JN23
Posts: 3866
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by JN23 »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm


Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...
Which race did he retire from the lead in?

Battle Far
Posts: 880
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Battle Far »

carvala wrote: Ricciardo wants to drink from his shoe, he'd better do that anytime soon. Otherwise the team may give him the boot. That may be too much to swallow.
The sole of this post sticks in my throat

pokerman
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

Johnson wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:20 pm


Who do you think it would be, then?

Bear in mind that mikeyg123 said he would be the greatest to 'never drive a car capable of making a championship run', not the greatest to never make such a run himself. He hasn't even had the opportunity regardless of personal ability -- no one could have challenged for a title in the cars Ricciardo has driven.
I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...
He relied on the faster cars messing up to have any kind of chance, his destiny was not in his own hands, he himself wasn't in a position to dictate the outcome of races as in winning races, for me that's not having a title capable car.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 101 (1st)
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mikeyg123
Posts: 19745
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:03 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:05 pm

I've thought of one Robert Kubica but I guess his career got cut short so he might have, greatest ever driver never to have perhaps has poor timing given his performance thus far this season, his stock has dropped, Ricciardo is starting to look like a busted flush, any route to a title contending car surely comes with a better driver as a teammate, Ricciardo is now looking like a tier 2 driver and why should such a driver deserve the best car in F1, a lot was also made of Perez and now look at him he's just there to assist Max.
Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...
He relied on the faster cars messing up to have any kind of chance, his destiny was not in his own hands, he himself wasn't in a position to dictate the outcome of races as in winning races, for me that's not having a title capable car.
I never said title capable I said TITLE CHALLENGING. Which the car factually actually did.

Regardless, I made the proposition so I'm setting the parameters for myself in thinking that.

I'm happy to have a conversation about it but if you're starting point is so extreme as to deny things that we actually saw happen then there really is little point.

pokerman
Posts: 37980
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:03 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 2:23 pm


Kubica did have a championship challenge. In the 2008 BMW.
In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...
He relied on the faster cars messing up to have any kind of chance, his destiny was not in his own hands, he himself wasn't in a position to dictate the outcome of races as in winning races, for me that's not having a title capable car.
I never said title capable I said TITLE CHALLENGING. Which the car factually actually did.

Regardless, I made the proposition so I'm setting the parameters for myself in thinking that.

I'm happy to have a conversation about it but if you're starting point is so extreme as to deny things that we actually saw happen then there really is little point.
I see your point now but that was somewhat gifted to Kubica, did he have fair chance in the car he had, I would say no, I thought that was the point of Ricciardo being given a title capable car and then we're into deep semantics into exactly what challenging is, Kubica won one race, Ricciardo won 3 races, Kubica went to the last 2 races, Ricciardo the last 3 races, the more unfortunate part for Ricciardo was that the faster car/drivers didn't mess up as much.

I just think it's semantics of the points scored and not the quality of the car, to say that Kubica had a title challenging car and Ricciardo didn't, I think is not fair on Kubica, it suggests that Kubica got his chance but he didn't take it, the reality of the performance of Kubica's car is one win and a 39% podium rate, Ricciardo 3 wins and a 42% podium rate.

It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 99 (1st)
Pole Positions: 101 (1st)
Podiums: 175 (1st)


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2014: Champion

User avatar
Schermerhorn
Posts: 415
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Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by Schermerhorn »

Invade wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:00 pm
Schermerhorn wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:58 pm
IDFD wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:19 pm
Out of interest if your top 3 are Leclarc, Max, Lewis. Whose the 4th ahead of Norris. I don't really see anyone else you can currently put there.

Obviously Alonso is unknown but I don't think he could currently be placed above Norris.
Charles still makes too many mistakes for most to consider him an elite driver. His speed is there though. It'll be interesting to see how close Sainz is to him next year once he's properly settled in to Ferrari.

For me personally, Sainz, is still the hidden diamond of F1.
What is hidden about him, exactly.
He showed well against Verstappen and the internal Red Bull politics did not phase him.

He beat Lando Norris twice (the same Norris who is beating Ricciardo).

He is showing very well against "Top 3" Charles Leclerc. Some misfortune has gone his way they are very closely matched even if Sainz's ultimate speed is not the same as Leclerc's, his racecraft and stay-out-trouble consistency will see him do well.

I believe Leclerc has his hands full and will lose out to Sainz.

Just my 2 cents. You don't have to get upset over an opinon.
You’re not in a fight until there’s pressure. Resistance. Overcoming something. Otherwise, it’s just an exhibition.

mikeyg123
Posts: 19745
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Is Ricciardo done?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:19 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:35 pm
pokerman wrote:
Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:03 pm
Johnson wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 4:04 pm

In the third best car, how was that a WDC capable car and only in the hunt due to McLaren/Mercedes mess ups, he won only one race because of the pit lane collision between Hamilton and Kimi, he was out of contention in the last third of the season.

In 2014 Ricciardo had the 2nd/3rd best car and won 3 races, he also I believe fell out of title contention with about a third of the season remaining, I see little difference.
Ricciardo had 0 chance at the 2014 WDC. We won 3 races when Mercedes imploded 3 times.

Kubica did get a lucky win, but he was on track to win another race when he retired from the lead. With 2 races to go in 2008 he was 12 points off the WDC lead...
He relied on the faster cars messing up to have any kind of chance, his destiny was not in his own hands, he himself wasn't in a position to dictate the outcome of races as in winning races, for me that's not having a title capable car.
I never said title capable I said TITLE CHALLENGING. Which the car factually actually did.

Regardless, I made the proposition so I'm setting the parameters for myself in thinking that.

I'm happy to have a conversation about it but if you're starting point is so extreme as to deny things that we actually saw happen then there really is little point.
I see your point now but that was somewhat gifted to Kubica, did he have fair chance in the car he had, I would say no, I thought that was the point of Ricciardo being given a title capable car and then we're into deep semantics into exactly what challenging is, Kubica won one race, Ricciardo won 3 races, Kubica went to the last 2 races, Ricciardo the last 3 races, the more unfortunate part for Ricciardo was that the faster car/drivers didn't mess up as much.

I just think it's semantics of the points scored and not the quality of the car, to say that Kubica had a title challenging car and Ricciardo didn't, I think is not fair on Kubica, it suggests that Kubica got his chance but he didn't take it, the reality of the performance of Kubica's car is one win and a 39% podium rate, Ricciardo 3 wins and a 42% podium rate.

It's just extreme circumstance that kept Kubica in the game not the quality of the car, on today's grid if you give Ricciardo's present car just 2 tenths more performance then you are perhaps were Kubica was with his car, look at Lando so close to 2 poles already, even with 2 tenths more performance is that a title challenging car I very much doubt it, I would say that Ricciardo is already close to having the car that Kubica had in 2008 already, Lando is beating both Bottas and Perez, it just needs Max and Hamilton to continually mess up.
I mean, yes that's the whole point. Had Ricciardo driven a faster car he wouldn't qualify.

But he hasn't.

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