Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

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SR1
Posts: 259
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
Not so sure quoting team members is such a good idea (there's usually some political/ulterior motive). Surprised Wolff said Merc was the fastest car in Imola because he also said the following:

"Red Bull should have been on pole everywhere. It’s the fastest package. Red Bull can’t deny being the favourite. That’s the reality. In Bahrain, Max should have won if Lewis hadn’t driven so incredibly. If he had waited another half lap before trying to overtake, he would have finished first. In Imola, Max made a mistake on the qualifying lap, otherwise he would have been in front. In Portugal, he drove over the track limit in qualifying and in the race and made a mistake when Lewis was breathing down his neck and was therefore able to overtake.”

Then, of course, there was Horner who conceded Merc and RB were evenly matched in Portugal. As for Marko, after Spain, he said " To sum up: We’re beaten below value, but all in all we have the faster car."

But i too am curious as to this GPS data that's been mentioned. Unless it's a reference to AMuS (who use GPS data in their assessments). They currently have RB ahead.

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

Kingvoid, how do you see Verstappen winning France? Assuming the Mercedes driver gets that strategy, I don’t see how he could do it, unless you think Verstappen is 0.2 a lap quicker than Hamilton in race pace. Which would mean he would have won every race this year in the Mercedes.

pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?
AMuS use GPS data in working out which car is faster, before France they had it at 4-2 in favour of Red Bull, I'm waiting for the AMuS update that gets posted on here.
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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

SR1 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
Not so sure quoting team members is such a good idea (there's usually some political/ulterior motive). Surprised Wolff said Merc was the fastest car in Imola because he also said the following:

"Red Bull should have been on pole everywhere. It’s the fastest package. Red Bull can’t deny being the favourite. That’s the reality. In Bahrain, Max should have won if Lewis hadn’t driven so incredibly. If he had waited another half lap before trying to overtake, he would have finished first. In Imola, Max made a mistake on the qualifying lap, otherwise he would have been in front. In Portugal, he drove over the track limit in qualifying and in the race and made a mistake when Lewis was breathing down his neck and was therefore able to overtake.”

Then, of course, there was Horner who conceded Merc and RB were evenly matched in Portugal. As for Marko, after Spain, he said " To sum up: We’re beaten below value, but all in all we have the faster car."

But i too am curious as to this GPS data that's been mentioned. Unless it's a reference to AMuS (who use GPS data in their assessments). They currently have RB ahead.
Don't you know that you're only allowed to use quotes from team principals when it suits your argument. :)
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mikeyg123
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:32 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
Not so sure quoting team members is such a good idea (there's usually some political/ulterior motive). Surprised Wolff said Merc was the fastest car in Imola because he also said the following:

"Red Bull should have been on pole everywhere. It’s the fastest package. Red Bull can’t deny being the favourite. That’s the reality. In Bahrain, Max should have won if Lewis hadn’t driven so incredibly. If he had waited another half lap before trying to overtake, he would have finished first. In Imola, Max made a mistake on the qualifying lap, otherwise he would have been in front. In Portugal, he drove over the track limit in qualifying and in the race and made a mistake when Lewis was breathing down his neck and was therefore able to overtake.”

Then, of course, there was Horner who conceded Merc and RB were evenly matched in Portugal. As for Marko, after Spain, he said " To sum up: We’re beaten below value, but all in all we have the faster car."

But i too am curious as to this GPS data that's been mentioned. Unless it's a reference to AMuS (who use GPS data in their assessments). They currently have RB ahead.
Don't you know that you're only allowed to use quotes from team principals when it suits your argument. :)
Don't be obtuse. We all know Toto has always massively talked down Merc's chances at every opportunity. If he even he is saying Merc are faster then that certainly is more valid then when he says they aren't because he is always very reluctant to talk them up.

F1_Ernie
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Regarding Imola when someone asked Mark Hughes about Wolff's quote he responded with this:

Where was this "clearly the quickest car" quote from? Here's what I heard him say in the post-race media interviews: "We are still having a deficit with the car. Yesterday we ended up on pole but if Max had put in a clean lap we were probably two-and-a-half tenths behind, maybe three. That is simply what the pecking order is at the moment. Today is difficult to judge because of the circumstances but we had a very good car today but we're still not having a car which can match the Red Bull-Honda." I have the audio.

So at the same grand prix he was quoted saying something different. I have also read Marko say RB have the fastest car which is the biggest shock of all.
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SR1
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:44 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:32 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
Not so sure quoting team members is such a good idea (there's usually some political/ulterior motive). Surprised Wolff said Merc was the fastest car in Imola because he also said the following:

"Red Bull should have been on pole everywhere. It’s the fastest package. Red Bull can’t deny being the favourite. That’s the reality. In Bahrain, Max should have won if Lewis hadn’t driven so incredibly. If he had waited another half lap before trying to overtake, he would have finished first. In Imola, Max made a mistake on the qualifying lap, otherwise he would have been in front. In Portugal, he drove over the track limit in qualifying and in the race and made a mistake when Lewis was breathing down his neck and was therefore able to overtake.”

Then, of course, there was Horner who conceded Merc and RB were evenly matched in Portugal. As for Marko, after Spain, he said " To sum up: We’re beaten below value, but all in all we have the faster car."

But i too am curious as to this GPS data that's been mentioned. Unless it's a reference to AMuS (who use GPS data in their assessments). They currently have RB ahead.
Don't you know that you're only allowed to use quotes from team principals when it suits your argument. :)
Don't be obtuse. We all know Toto has always massively talked down Merc's chances at every opportunity. If he even he is saying Merc are faster then that certainly is more valid then when he says they aren't because he is always very reluctant to talk them up.
Both camps (Merc and RB) are as bad as each other-with Verstappen and his father often downplaying the RB car. That's partly why independent, neutral analysis is often a far more valuable tool.

pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:44 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:32 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
Not so sure quoting team members is such a good idea (there's usually some political/ulterior motive). Surprised Wolff said Merc was the fastest car in Imola because he also said the following:

"Red Bull should have been on pole everywhere. It’s the fastest package. Red Bull can’t deny being the favourite. That’s the reality. In Bahrain, Max should have won if Lewis hadn’t driven so incredibly. If he had waited another half lap before trying to overtake, he would have finished first. In Imola, Max made a mistake on the qualifying lap, otherwise he would have been in front. In Portugal, he drove over the track limit in qualifying and in the race and made a mistake when Lewis was breathing down his neck and was therefore able to overtake.”

Then, of course, there was Horner who conceded Merc and RB were evenly matched in Portugal. As for Marko, after Spain, he said " To sum up: We’re beaten below value, but all in all we have the faster car."

But i too am curious as to this GPS data that's been mentioned. Unless it's a reference to AMuS (who use GPS data in their assessments). They currently have RB ahead.
Don't you know that you're only allowed to use quotes from team principals when it suits your argument. :)
Don't be obtuse. We all know Toto has always massively talked down Merc's chances at every opportunity. If he even he is saying Merc are faster then that certainly is more valid then when he says they aren't because he is always very reluctant to talk them up.
Well I did say team principles maybe I should have said team members as highlighted in the post, we choose to ignore Marko who says all in all Red Bull have the faster car?
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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:44 am
Regarding Imola when someone asked Mark Hughes about Wolff's quote he responded with this:

Where was this "clearly the quickest car" quote from? Here's what I heard him say in the post-race media interviews: "We are still having a deficit with the car. Yesterday we ended up on pole but if Max had put in a clean lap we were probably two-and-a-half tenths behind, maybe three. That is simply what the pecking order is at the moment. Today is difficult to judge because of the circumstances but we had a very good car today but we're still not having a car which can match the Red Bull-Honda." I have the audio.

So at the same grand prix he was quoted saying something different. I have also read Marko say RB have the fastest car which is the biggest shock of all.
People will read what they want to read. :)
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Paolo_Lasardi
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:32 am
SR1 wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 am
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
Not so sure quoting team members is such a good idea (there's usually some political/ulterior motive). Surprised Wolff said Merc was the fastest car in Imola because he also said the following:

"Red Bull should have been on pole everywhere. It’s the fastest package. Red Bull can’t deny being the favourite. That’s the reality. In Bahrain, Max should have won if Lewis hadn’t driven so incredibly. If he had waited another half lap before trying to overtake, he would have finished first. In Imola, Max made a mistake on the qualifying lap, otherwise he would have been in front. In Portugal, he drove over the track limit in qualifying and in the race and made a mistake when Lewis was breathing down his neck and was therefore able to overtake.”

Then, of course, there was Horner who conceded Merc and RB were evenly matched in Portugal. As for Marko, after Spain, he said " To sum up: We’re beaten below value, but all in all we have the faster car."

But i too am curious as to this GPS data that's been mentioned. Unless it's a reference to AMuS (who use GPS data in their assessments). They currently have RB ahead.
Don't you know that you're only allowed to use quotes from team principals when it suits your argument. :)
:thumbup:

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

As mikey said, Toto is renowned for downplaying the speed of Mercedes. If he said that Mercedes was the fastest car in France, there’s a good and obvious reason for that.

The fact that Hamilton was able to stay within the DRS of Verstappen for 10 laps before he backed off to cool his tyres is further evidence of Mercedes superiority this weekend. You can’t drive the way Hamilton drove behind Verstappen for 10 laps without a significant intrinsic speed advantage.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:07 am
Kingvoid, how do you see Verstappen winning France? Assuming the Mercedes driver gets that strategy, I don’t see how he could do it, unless you think Verstappen is 0.2 a lap quicker than Hamilton in race pace. Which would mean he would have won every race this year in the Mercedes.
I don’t think Verstappen would have been jumped by Hamilton if he was leading in a Mercedes on the end or lap 1. If Hamilton (in a Red Bull) is not ahead or Verstappen (in a Mercedes) after the first round of pit stops, then Hamilton won’t have enough time to make up the deficit to the lead and Verstappen ends up winning.

It’s all very hypothetical, but Pullrod is the one who wanted me to hypothesize what would happen if Max and Lewis switched cars, so of course the scenario will have a lot of assumptions in it.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:17 am
As mikey said, Toto is renowned for downplaying the speed of Mercedes. If he said that Mercedes was the fastest car in France, there’s a good and obvious reason for that.

The fact that Hamilton was able to stay within the DRS of Verstappen for 10 laps before he backed off to cool his tyres is further evidence of Mercedes superiority this weekend. You can’t drive the way Hamilton drove behind Verstappen for 10 laps without a significant intrinsic speed advantage.
I'm not sure how many people are saying that I in particular put Mercedes down as being the faster car in the race, in terms of Wolff if he says that Red Bull are quicker then he's playing games, if he says that Mercedes are quicker then it's true, some of you guys just can't lose.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:17 am
As mikey said, Toto is renowned for downplaying the speed of Mercedes. If he said that Mercedes was the fastest car in France, there’s a good and obvious reason for that.

The fact that Hamilton was able to stay within the DRS of Verstappen for 10 laps before he backed off to cool his tyres is further evidence of Mercedes superiority this weekend. You can’t drive the way Hamilton drove behind Verstappen for 10 laps without a significant intrinsic speed advantage.
Toto is renowned for downplaying the car when they win. The opposite when they lose. Mercedes did appear to have an advantage on the hard tyre, but Verstappen spent 14 laps of a 52 lap race on those and held the lead for that period.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:49 am
Johnson wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:07 am
Kingvoid, how do you see Verstappen winning France? Assuming the Mercedes driver gets that strategy, I don’t see how he could do it, unless you think Verstappen is 0.2 a lap quicker than Hamilton in race pace. Which would mean he would have won every race this year in the Mercedes.
I don’t think Verstappen would have been jumped by Hamilton if he was leading in a Mercedes on the end or lap 1. If Hamilton (in a Red Bull) is not ahead or Verstappen (in a Mercedes) after the first round of pit stops, then Hamilton won’t have enough time to make up the deficit to the lead and Verstappen ends up winning.

It’s all very hypothetical, but Pullrod is the one who wanted me to hypothesize what would happen if Max and Lewis switched cars, so of course the scenario will have a lot of assumptions in it.
Yes extremely hypothetical. Basically you can't really speculate on this one, its wildly hypothetical.

Hamilton has proven to be better on tyre life (or maybe that is in part the Mercedes) than Verstappen Red Bull. So maybe Hamilton (in a Red Bull) does not fall 3.1 seconds behind at the end of the first stint. Which ironically maybe would have held Mercedes the lead, because if the gap was less they would not have waited that extra lap to pit Hamilton.

If Hamilton was a bit slower in the first stint and maybe had a 1.5-2 second lead, he more than likely would have remained in the lead because Mercedes would have had to be proactive and not reactive in strategy and pitted him the lap after Bottas. He built too much of a lead to make his pit wall think he was safe. One of those odd quirks.

Maybe Max is faster than Lewis and builds a comfortable 5 second lead in stint 1, maybe Lewis is faster than Max and doesn't make the mistake to lose the lead and he builds a 5 second lead in the Red Bull. Who knows.

Either way, its not a race you can say Verstappen would have won in a Mercedes, unless your position is that Verstappen is massively faster than Hamilton which would translate to he would have won every race this year in the Mercedes.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Mercedes-Benz »

I think someone already mentioned it. Hard tyres I think Mercedes has advantage and on softer compound both are on par with each other. RBR is faster in the qualifying. RBR have definitely improved their car since Spain. May be using fresher engine also allowed them for slightly higher speed but I think they were using less wing as well and had better strategy. RBR was more affected with the wind. Overall I think Mercedes are little surprised. Most people were expecting them to have repeat of Spain. Austria my guess is RBR will have even better performance. So Mercedes need to find right setup early in the weekend.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:07 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:17 am
As mikey said, Toto is renowned for downplaying the speed of Mercedes. If he said that Mercedes was the fastest car in France, there’s a good and obvious reason for that.

The fact that Hamilton was able to stay within the DRS of Verstappen for 10 laps before he backed off to cool his tyres is further evidence of Mercedes superiority this weekend. You can’t drive the way Hamilton drove behind Verstappen for 10 laps without a significant intrinsic speed advantage.
I'm not sure how many people are saying that I in particular put Mercedes down as being the faster car in the race, in terms of Wolff if he says that Red Bull are quicker then he's playing games, if he says that Mercedes are quicker then it's true, some of you guys just can't lose.
Did you and Johnson watch the post-race debrief from Mercedes on YouTube?

Shov said the same thing I did. Red Bull was quicker in qualifying, Mercedes was slightly quicker on race day. He also pointed out that Hamilton was able to gap Verstappen in the first stint on equal tyres.

The fact that Bottas was also quicker than Perez on equal tyres in the first stint only further justifies my position.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

I didn’t disagree that Mercedes had a slightly faster race car or at least better tyre life. I disagreed with you when you said that Verstappen would have won the race in the Mercedes.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:07 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:17 am
As mikey said, Toto is renowned for downplaying the speed of Mercedes. If he said that Mercedes was the fastest car in France, there’s a good and obvious reason for that.

The fact that Hamilton was able to stay within the DRS of Verstappen for 10 laps before he backed off to cool his tyres is further evidence of Mercedes superiority this weekend. You can’t drive the way Hamilton drove behind Verstappen for 10 laps without a significant intrinsic speed advantage.
I'm not sure how many people are saying that I in particular put Mercedes down as being the faster car in the race, in terms of Wolff if he says that Red Bull are quicker then he's playing games, if he says that Mercedes are quicker then it's true, some of you guys just can't lose.
Did you and Johnson watch the post-race debrief from Mercedes on YouTube?

Shov said the same thing I did. Red Bull was quicker in qualifying, Mercedes was slightly quicker on race day. He also pointed out that Hamilton was able to gap Verstappen in the first stint on equal tyres.

The fact that Bottas was also quicker than Perez on equal tyres in the first stint only further justifies my position.
No I didn't watch because I was so mad with the Mercedes strategy team, I believe the reference to Wolff was for another race, Imola I believe?

Hamilton hardly gapped Max seeing how he got undercut also Bottas speed came with destroying his tyres in his basically all or nothing attempt to show he was just as quick as Max and meanwhile Perez was able to run much longer on the tyres because he was doing a thing called looking after his tyres, the greater speed of the Mercedes I believe was shown on the harder tyres.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

Using Bottas vs Perez when Perez beat Bottas...

Bottas was quicker in the opening stint, 17of 52 laps. In fact he was only quicker in the first 6 laps then the pace was equal. What about the rest of the race?

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:28 pm
Bottas was quicker in the opening stint, 17of 52 laps. In fact he was only quicker in the first 6 laps then the pace was equal. What about the rest of the race?
Perez beat Bottas because Perez was on the ideal 1 stop strategy, while Bottas pitted too early (because of vibrations) and then was on a very compromised 1 stop strategy, where his second stint was far too long. When they were both on the same tyres in the opening stint, Bottas was quicker. You can agree with that, no?

Perez wasn't saving his tyres in the first 10 laps by the way, he was struggling with the balance of the car in the windy conditions, so it was more of a speed problem rather than a deliberate tactic to drive slowly.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:20 pm
I didn’t disagree that Mercedes had a slightly faster race car or at least better tyre life. I disagreed with you when you said that Verstappen would have won the race in the Mercedes.
Let's for the sake of the argument assume that Verstappen leads at the end of lap 1 ahead of Hamilton, with Verstappen in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Red Bull. This is what I believe would happen:

1. Verstappen gradually opens up the gap to about 3 seconds, like Hamilton did when the situations were reversed.
2. Hamilton gets the undercut and pits on lap 18 while Verstappen pits on lap 19.

However:

3. Hamilton does not push quite as aggressive as Verstappen on the outlap, as Hamilton tends to be more cautious than Verstappen with cold tyres.
4. Verstappen gained around 2 tenths relative to Hamilton in the pit entry alone, according to Jolyon Palmer, because he pushed harder and braked later for the speed limit.

These two factors combined, result in Hamilton not quite being able to jump Verstappen, because only a few tenths alone would be enough to make a critical difference.

If the Red Bull is not ahead of the Mercedes at the start of the second stint, then Red Bull don't win the race, because Hamilton would have to make up an additional 4 seconds in his final stint.

Agree or disagree with this logic? Please explain where I am wrong.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

You are neither right or wrong, it’s entirely speculation.

But we do know that Verstappen screwed up on turn 1, so surely Hamilton leads the first stint in his Red Bull? Or are we giving Max a free pass? Or does Max screw up turn 1 and drop from 2nd to 3rd?

Like I said, way too many hypotheticals. Did you consider that Hamiltons pit entry was a little cautious since he and his team thought they were completely safe from undercut, so you don’t risk as much. Just so many unknowns.

Max also still could have won the race if he emerged behind Hamilton at the first pit stops. Max was driving to a delta to ensure he caught him, balancing tyre life and speed. We would only be able to know for sure if we knew how much tyres he had left at the end of the race. Even so, Max won the race by a larger margin than he was ahead of Hamilton when he pitted for his 2nd stop. If he had driven the same pace he would have got Hamilton on the last lap, but he probably had a bit more in hand anyway.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

However the race was run on Sunday, Verstappen wins.

Mercedes did have a marginally faster race car in clean air on equal strategies, but the Red Bull on a two stop was a much faster car than the Mercedes on a one stop, and Mercedes did not have the option of a two stop. If they did, they would have won the race - but they couldn't do the two stop for two crucial reasons.

Red Bull had sacrificed race pace for their low drag rear wing, meaning they had the option to overtake on the straight - the Mercedes went for the high downforce wing, and this meant they could not overtake, as they just could not get close enough on the straight because the Red Bull could match them without a tow, and virtually match them with DRS. When the roles were reverse, the Red Bull had a huge advantage for passing, coupled with the fresher tyres there was no stopping the pass.

The other detail was Perez hanging back. Whereas Verstappen was waved through, and then hit the Mercs when they had lost all front end grip, the Mercedes would have had to have passed him. While it is possible they may have eventually found a way past due to the tyre life difference - due to Perez's late stop the difference would not have been that extreme. Perez hanging back on that first stint was clearly by design as he showed he had the race pace when he needed it, Red Bull's strategy for him all along was to prevent Mercedes from having the option to two stop.

It makes France a difficult one to score on who had the advantage in the race. Given that Max only caught Hamilton with 2 laps to go, it's possible Hamilton would have kept his tyres in for longer had he not had to run in Max's wake for several laps, not to mention extra 4 seconds Max would have had to have made up from being 1 second behind instead of 3 ahead at the time of his second stop. However, I think Max had a lot of pace in hand and he had paced himself to make sure he was best equipped when he came to pass Hamilton, particularly after Bahrain. It would have been closer - and it could have gone Hamilton's way - but given Verstappen should have been ahead from the start (Red Bull certainly didn't intend for him to make his Turn 2 error) - it's likely that he would have driven away in the first stint as he was able to keep pace when behind.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

Not sure I agree with that Alien.

1) Mercedes was only 1-2km slower than Red Bull on the straights. If Mercedes had a big tyre offset it would have sailed by the Red Bull but it may have taken a couple of laps yes.

2) Hamilton would have to pass Perez but he would have a 8 lap tyre offset and compound softer. He would have breezed by. Also Verstappen had to pass Bottas, yes it was a larger offset but he still lost a little time there himself.

3) you do make an excellent point though with Perez and his pit stop timing. The perfect number 2 is not so fast that he hangs with the leaders. You want him to drop back a bit to interfere with strategy more. Red Bull paid that perfectly. Bottas was too fast to do that in France.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

I was reading amus power rankings and they reported the RB being upto 16 km/h faster than the Mercedes. They also have the RB ranked number 1.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:43 pm
SR1 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:53 pm
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 1:37 pm
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
Monaco-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ll-spitze/

So far, 3-2 to Red Bull.

Baku-Red Bull

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... formcheck/

4-2 to Red Bull
That's good enough for me. :)
France-RB

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... eich-2021/

5-2 to Red Bull

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

Very confused how they can think Red Bull was the better car yet Verstappen was the better driver. That surely is totally illogical? He only beat Hamilton by a few seconds. How was he the better driver if they conclude had a better car AND the better strategy?

For me Mercedes were clearly better in the race in France and I make it 4:3. Either way they've been close pretty much everywhere and I can't think of an occasion where I've felt the driver that didn't do the best job on the day (out of Verstappen and Hamilton) came away with the win. France is quite possibly the exception to that.

Edit - They also scored Perez higher than Bottas. Again, totally illogical if they think Perez had the superior car.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by tootsie323 »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:21 pm
Johnson wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:20 pm
I didn’t disagree that Mercedes had a slightly faster race car or at least better tyre life. I disagreed with you when you said that Verstappen would have won the race in the Mercedes.
Let's for the sake of the argument assume that Verstappen leads at the end of lap 1 ahead of Hamilton, with Verstappen in a Mercedes and Hamilton in a Red Bull. This is what I believe would happen:

1. Verstappen gradually opens up the gap to about 3 seconds, like Hamilton did when the situations were reversed.
2. Hamilton gets the undercut and pits on lap 18 while Verstappen pits on lap 19.

However:

3. Hamilton does not push quite as aggressive as Verstappen on the outlap, as Hamilton tends to be more cautious than Verstappen with cold tyres.
4. Verstappen gained around 2 tenths relative to Hamilton in the pit entry alone, according to Jolyon Palmer, because he pushed harder and braked later for the speed limit.

These two factors combined, result in Hamilton not quite being able to jump Verstappen, because only a few tenths alone would be enough to make a critical difference.

If the Red Bull is not ahead of the Mercedes at the start of the second stint, then Red Bull don't win the race, because Hamilton would have to make up an additional 4 seconds in his final stint.

Agree or disagree with this logic? Please explain where I am wrong.
Just a couple of queries on this:
Is Hamilton more cautious on cold tyres because the Merc does not heat them as quickly as the Red Bull? In other words, perhaps Hamilton may have the freedom to be more aggressive in the RB.
Somebody (I don't know who!) mentioned that the proximity of the Merc pit box to the entry (potentially?) compromised the speed of entry of their drivers. With roles reversed, perhaps that 2 tenths is likewise reversed.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:16 am
I was reading amus power rankings and they reported the RB being upto 16 km/h faster than the Mercedes. They also have the RB ranked number 1.
Wow, that’s crazy. I was incorrect and going off qualifying.

I just looked it up and Mercedes were slow in the race, 18th and 19th. Maybe some of those were set with heavy slip streams? Not sure where the sector 4 speed trap was. But they were 16kph down to Red Bull on that.

Max hit 327 in qualifying but 337 in the race so it must be slipstream?
Lewis hit 327 in qualifying but only 321 in the race.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Covalent »

Think I read somewhere that Hamilton said Mercedes were having the FIA check RB's pit box equipment, implying they were illegal. Did something come out from that?

Have to say I find it amusing that while RB have had by far the fastest pit stops for years already, it's now when Mercedes have a fight on their hands they throw their toys out of the pram (while saying with a straight face they're enjoying/welcoming the title fight).

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Siao7 »

Covalent wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:42 am
Think I read somewhere that Hamilton said Mercedes were having the FIA check RB's pit box equipment, implying they were illegal. Did something come out from that?

Have to say I find it amusing that while RB have had by far the fastest pit stops for years already, it's now when Mercedes have a fight on their hands they throw their toys out of the pram (while saying with a straight face they're enjoying/welcoming the title fight).
First time I hear that. Seems that Mercedes are trying everything up their sleeve as you mention.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:16 am
I was reading amus power rankings and they reported the RB being upto 16 km/h faster than the Mercedes. They also have the RB ranked number 1.
They think the Red Bull was faster in France?
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

SR1 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:29 am
pokerman wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:43 pm
SR1 wrote:
Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:53 pm
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 1:37 pm
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
Monaco-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ll-spitze/

So far, 3-2 to Red Bull.

Baku-Red Bull

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... formcheck/

4-2 to Red Bull
That's good enough for me. :)
France-RB

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... eich-2021/

5-2 to Red Bull
Right I'm changing my numbers then:-

Red Bull 9 - 5 Mercedes
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

Covalent wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:42 am
Think I read somewhere that Hamilton said Mercedes were having the FIA check RB's pit box equipment, implying they were illegal. Did something come out from that?

Have to say I find it amusing that while RB have had by far the fastest pit stops for years already, it's now when Mercedes have a fight on their hands they throw their toys out of the pram (while saying with a straight face they're enjoying/welcoming the title fight).
Was this not something to do with the tyre blanket temperatures reading lower than what they really were when the pressures are taken, after Baku some tyres were reading lower than what they should have done, this in itself was not against the rules but the rules are now being changed because they were inadequate?

I can't see how tyre changing equipment can actually be illegal.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Johnson wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:38 am
F1_Ernie wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:16 am
I was reading amus power rankings and they reported the RB being upto 16 km/h faster than the Mercedes. They also have the RB ranked number 1.
Wow, that’s crazy. I was incorrect and going off qualifying.

I just looked it up and Mercedes were slow in the race, 18th and 19th. Maybe some of those were set with heavy slip streams? Not sure where the sector 4 speed trap was. But they were 16kph down to Red Bull on that.

Max hit 327 in qualifying but 337 in the race so it must be slipstream?
Lewis hit 327 in qualifying but only 321 in the race.
Apparently combination of a new honda engine plus as the reliability is getting better they are able to extract more power. Also the wing is still bending but then I could have the translation wrong.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:16 am
Just a couple of queries on this:
Is Hamilton more cautious on cold tyres because the Merc does not heat them as quickly as the Red Bull? In other words, perhaps Hamilton may have the freedom to be more aggressive in the RB.
Somebody (I don't know who!) mentioned that the proximity of the Merc pit box to the entry (potentially?) compromised the speed of entry of their drivers. With roles reversed, perhaps that 2 tenths is likewise reversed.
FYI, the 2 tenths comes from braking for the pitlane speed limiter, not the actual pitbox itself.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

pokerman wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 12:40 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:16 am
I was reading amus power rankings and they reported the RB being upto 16 km/h faster than the Mercedes. They also have the RB ranked number 1.
They think the Red Bull was faster in France?
Do they include qualifying? They said Redbull was faster in quali but equal in the race. Personally I would rather be driving the RB which is quicker in quali, has better straight line speed and if the race is a 1 stopper then that's most of the job done. Mercedes have a slight advantage on the hards but it wont be enough to overtake.
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018

mikeyg123
Posts: 19314
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

So... Nobody able to explain AMUS finding Red Bull the fastest car but Verstappen performing better than Hamilton and Perez performing better than Bottas then? Despite The Red Bull drivers having a better strategy and according to AMUS a better car yet only finished a few seconds ahead.

Unless that can be explained I don't see how the rankings can be given any credibility.

WHoff78
Posts: 915
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:01 pm

Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by WHoff78 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:06 pm
So... Nobody able to explain AMUS finding Red Bull the fastest car but Verstappen performing better than Hamilton and Perez performing better than Bottas then? Despite The Red Bull drivers having a better strategy and according to AMUS a better car yet only finished a few seconds ahead.

Unless that can be explained I don't see how the rankings can be given any credibility.
Well if the Red Bull is faster in qualy and faster in a straight line, then one could easily draw the conclusion it is the better car to have for the weekend. No mistake on the first lap and it’s Max’s race to lose.

However, Max did make a mistake. Things then get interesting, the cars are fairly even on Sunday but there is a case that Merc have slightly better race pace. There’s not a lot in it but I think that is probably fair, at least comparing Lewis and Max. However, Max still makes the 2-stop strategy work and gets the job done despite all that. You couldn’t ask for much more from his outlap after the first stops, and he manages the pace and passes both Mercs very efficiently in the last stint. Hamilton, doesn’t put a foot wrong either, but there is a case that Max has shown a little more and more than made amends for his first lap. Doesn’t seem unreasonable…

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