Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

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F1_Ernie
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Redbull deffiantly have the edge in quali, i have it equal in the races. Max has been the better driver overall but i think Lewis was better today tbh. I would rather have Redbulls strategy team and pit crew which gains you a second at most pitstops, ive been moaning for years about Mercedes strategy team and how they follow the computer too much.
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2018: 12th place

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SR1
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

SR1 wrote:
Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:39 pm
SR1 wrote:
Sun May 23, 2021 11:38 pm
After 5 races and some reassessment, i have:

Bahrain- RB quickest in qualifying and overall in the race

Imola-RB quickest in qualifying and overall in the race

Portugal -unclear/equal in qualifying, Merc quickest in the race

Spain- equal in qualifying, Merc quickest in the race

Monaco-roughly equal in qualifying and the race

Factoring in qualifying pace, i have RB slightly ahead.
Following on from this:

Baku- RB quickest in qualifying and overall in the race.

For me, RB are ahead.
France, RB quickest in qualifying, equal in the race. Overall, i have RB slightly ahead.

mikeyg123
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.

Yeboah24
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Yeboah24 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
In your opinion. Its your opinion that without lewis going off track, max never would have got by.
Its a fact that max going off at turn one cost him to lose a position

Clarky
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Clarky »

Cluster-F**k from Mercedes today.

Mistakes are becoming more and more common.

Pullrod
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Pullrod »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
After Alonso, you have found in Max a great ally.
It baffles me to hear you say their "mistakes were similar!!

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Invade
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Invade »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
That seems like an epic reach.

There's not much to say he wouldn't have anyway lost the position. Or are you referring to when Mercedes decided to pit Hamilton? If Hamilton did make a more definitively costly mistake today (like the one Max made) then I'd suggest it has something to do with his in-lap and pitstop phase, in terms of attacking the phase aggressively. At the moment though, this is just a guess on my part as it's not entirely clear to me why Lewis came out behind.

mikeyg123
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

Pullrod wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:41 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
After Alonso, you have found in Max a great ally.
It baffles me to hear you say their "mistakes were similar!!
They took too much speed into the corners and ran wide. Basically the same mistake for both.

mikeyg123
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

Yeboah24 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
In your opinion. Its your opinion that without lewis going off track, max never would have got by.
Its a fact that max going off at turn one cost him to lose a position
Which we know he regained. In the long run it didn't cost him anything. Hamilton's error may, or may not have cost him the win.

Yeboah24
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Yeboah24 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:05 pm
Yeboah24 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm


Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
In your opinion. Its your opinion that without lewis going off track, max never would have got by.
Its a fact that max going off at turn one cost him to lose a position
Which we know he regained. In the long run it didn't cost him anything. Hamilton's error may, or may not have cost him the win.
Yes so lewis going wide may or may not have cost him a place. Max error did cost him a place. You cant ignore that max didnt regain it, mercedes strategy gave him the place. In that context how can you say the two errors are the same.

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Lotus49
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Lotus49 »

I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

JN23
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:34 pm
I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
I believe Toto said the other week Merc said they’re pretty much done for this year - happy to be told I’m wrong on that though.

Ferrari are 100% on next year now.

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UnlikeUday
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by UnlikeUday »

Just saying, Red Bull were poised for a 1-2 last race & this race they finished 1-3. Seems they're getting more sturdy.
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F1_Ernie
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:40 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:34 pm
I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
I believe Toto said the other week Merc said they’re pretty much done for this year - happy to be told I’m wrong on that though.

Ferrari are 100% on next year now.
I've heard the same regarding Mercedes while RB seem to be getting better. I would personally like to to be driving the RB which is better in quali, fast on all tracks and has the better pit crew and strategy team. Looks like maybe the better number 2 aswell now.
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2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

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Lotus49
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Lotus49 »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:40 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:34 pm
I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
I believe Toto said the other week Merc said they’re pretty much done for this year - happy to be told I’m wrong on that though.

Ferrari are 100% on next year now.
Fair enough, not sure if I was RB i'd believe him though. If they could get together with RB with any level of trust they could both stop and just let the drivers go seeing as it's this close but at the same time the closeness itself is a toughie as it's hard to leave a championship on the table if you think one good update could clinch it.

Saw that about Ferrari yeah and Alpine only half arsed this year to begin with by postponing their engine and icing their tub. Not sure about Macca or AM.
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967

JN23
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:12 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:40 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:34 pm
I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
I believe Toto said the other week Merc said they’re pretty much done for this year - happy to be told I’m wrong on that though.

Ferrari are 100% on next year now.
Fair enough, not sure if I was RB i'd believe him though. If they could get together with RB with any level of trust they could both stop and just let the drivers go seeing as it's this close but at the same time the closeness itself is a toughie as it's hard to leave a championship on the table if you think one good update could clinch it.

Saw that about Ferrari yeah and Alpine only half arsed this year to begin with by postponing their engine and icing their tub. Not sure about Macca or AM.
Yeah I agree with you whether he should be believed. It’s tricky as you say, could win you the championship this year but start you on the back foot for next set of regs and if it’s like 2014 it might be hard to catch up. I think having been nowhere near since 2014 I’d imagine Red Bull would want to do everything they can to get this one, Mercedes maybe not.

JN23
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:10 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:40 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:34 pm
I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
I believe Toto said the other week Merc said they’re pretty much done for this year - happy to be told I’m wrong on that though.

Ferrari are 100% on next year now.
I've heard the same regarding Mercedes while RB seem to be getting better. I would personally like to to be driving the RB which is better in quali, fast on all tracks and has the better pit crew and strategy team. Looks like maybe the better number 2 aswell now.
Yeah I do wonder if Red Bull will continue to look better compared to Mercedes if Merc have pretty much called it a day for the year. Time will tell but Mercedes absolutely have to strike back next time out.

JN23
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by JN23 »

Having now watched the race I think Mercedes had a slight advantage today and Red Bull yesterday. My average gives Red Bull a very slight car advantage over the season but Red Bull have the advantage on Saturday and Mercedes on a Sunday.

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F1 MERCENARY
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1 MERCENARY »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:05 pm
Yeboah24 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm


Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
In your opinion. Its your opinion that without lewis going off track, max never would have got by.
Its a fact that max going off at turn one cost him to lose a position
Which we know he regained. In the long run it didn't cost him anything. Hamilton's error may, or may not have cost him the win.
No Mercedes ONCE AGAIN screwed the pooch on strategy!!!

WHEN are they going to learn that leaving their drivers out there when their rival brings their guts in for fresh rubber isn’t the way to win??!?!?!??? They’re forcing their guys to ring the tires, THE WEAKEST COMPONENT, by the neck and HOPE it’s enough to hold off until the end!

They should have pulled Hamilton in for either mediums or softs to be able to RACE Verstappen on equal footing. What a total debacle by the strategist and the team. Hamilton was clearly the driver of the day, and Perez was quite impressive as was Bottas.

Really love how Bottas snapped at the team over the radio regarding not listening to him early on!!!

Kudos to Max on the win but he should call up Toto and Co to thank them for the gift of their continual screw ups on strategy. Honda should reconsider leaving F1 as their PU is finally superb!!!
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

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EPROM
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by EPROM »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:35 pm
Honda should reconsider leaving F1 as their PU is finally superb!!!
Good point; thanks for the thought! Honda does seem to have been rather strong and reliable this season. They pretty much seem to be at parity with Merc.

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Tufty
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Tufty »

F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 7:35 pm
Honda should reconsider leaving F1 as their PU is finally superb!!!
If their reason for leaving was that they couldn't compete with Mercedes, I'd agree. But with it being due to F1 not meeting their green targets any more, no amount of success will change their minds sadly.
Anyone in or near North Wales interested in an RC car racing tournament?

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:05 pm
Yeboah24 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm


Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
In your opinion. Its your opinion that without lewis going off track, max never would have got by.
Its a fact that max going off at turn one cost him to lose a position
Which we know he regained. In the long run it didn't cost him anything. Hamilton's error may, or may not have cost him the win.
I just checked the lap charts, which lap was it? Because it’s quite hard to find a slow lap that sticks out in Hamiltons stint. I think it’s a stretch to say it lost him a place, he seems to have lost 0.5 at most.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 20Hamilton

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
The same mistake as Hamilton made in Imola. Mistakes are judged by there impact, immediate and overall to the race.

Hamitlon was running P2 at Imola. Made a huge error. Immediate impact was going from P2 to P9. Overall impact was he lost nothing.

Verstappen was running P1 today. Made a small error. Immediate impact was going from P1 to P2. Overall impact was he lost nothing.

Hamilton was running P1 today. Made a small mistake error. The impact is unknown. At least until someone produces some numbers. I think Max just gets him a lap later (Verstappen was 1 second a lap quicker at the end) I’m pretty sure Lewis did not lose that. Max would have 2 more laps to do that move. Also Max was driving a delta to catch Lewis, so he would have sped up anyway.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Another close race - this is great for the neutrals! While it seemed like the Merc was the faster race car, their poor strategy with Hamilton (and complete #2 treatment of Bottas) meant they came away with a 2-4 finish instead of the likely 1-3. Anyway, the result was close enough for me to split the points here, even though the Mercs edged it on pace.

7 races in, I have Mercedes - RedBull at 4.5 - 2.5

Bahrain - 0.5-0.5
Imola - Merc
Portugal - Merc
Spain - Merc
Monaco - 0.5-0.5
Azerbaijan - Red Bull
France - 0.5-0.5
Last edited by A.J. on Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:00 pm
I give qualifying to Red Bull and the race for Mercedes, it was going to be a comfortable win for Hamilton but James Vowles threw the race, so:-

Red Bull 8 - 6 Mercedes

So far Max has been the better driver but not today, that was a clear mistake by Max that should have cost him the race, today Hamilton was let down by the strategy team.
Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
Well I need to revise Hamilton's mistake in Imola then as it seemingly cost him little.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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Podiums: 172 (1st)


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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:05 pm
Yeboah24 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:33 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:09 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 4:08 pm


Both Hamilton and Verstappen ran wide off track once.
Max lost position, that makes a difference.
The mistake is the same. In terms of how it played out, Hamilton's was the more costly.
In your opinion. Its your opinion that without lewis going off track, max never would have got by.
Its a fact that max going off at turn one cost him to lose a position
Which we know he regained. In the long run it didn't cost him anything. Hamilton's error may, or may not have cost him the win.
He regained the position because of James Vowles terrible strategy call.
Lewis Hamilton #44

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kleefton
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by kleefton »

JN23 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:25 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 6:10 pm
JN23 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:40 pm
Lotus49 wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 5:34 pm
I'd be happy to be in either car, it's about as close as you can get in different machinery thus far. Which could force both to keep developing throughout the year, which is great for the likes of Ferrari,Macca and Alpine etc with an eye for next year.

Happy days.
I believe Toto said the other week Merc said they’re pretty much done for this year - happy to be told I’m wrong on that though.

Ferrari are 100% on next year now.
I've heard the same regarding Mercedes while RB seem to be getting better. I would personally like to to be driving the RB which is better in quali, fast on all tracks and has the better pit crew and strategy team. Looks like maybe the better number 2 aswell now.
Yeah I do wonder if Red Bull will continue to look better compared to Mercedes if Merc have pretty much called it a day for the year. Time will tell but Mercedes absolutely have to strike back next time out.
IMo if Merc gives up development for this year to focus on the next they are making a huge mistake. There is no telling who will get the regulations right next year. Someone might do a Brawn 2009 and run away with it. Merc should not just abandon this year's title fight. Redbull is guaranteed not to do that imo. It jsut seems that Redbull is getting stronger as the season progresses and Merc has somewhat stagnated.

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

kleefton wrote:
Mon Jun 21, 2021 12:53 pm
IMo if Merc gives up development for this year to focus on the next they are making a huge mistake. There is no telling who will get the regulations right next year. Someone might do a Brawn 2009 and run away with it. Merc should not just abandon this year's title fight. Redbull is guaranteed not to do that imo. It jsut seems that Redbull is getting stronger as the season progresses and Merc has somewhat stagnated.
It could be 4D chess though. If they win the championships anyway, great. If Red Bull win the championships then they have likely forced Red Bull to develop their 2021 car more and won more wind-tunnel time by finishing 2nd vs 1st in the WCC.

I'm sure they would prefer to win it but neither team wants a pyrrhic victory that costs them long term. Mercedes want to push Red Bull to bring that big update and see the lay of the land. Depending on performance gain, Mercedes can decide to fight, maintain course or abandon the campaign.
OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

Delphic
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Delphic »

Probably depends on how much they want to cater to Lewis Hamilton. He is not getting younger, and it seems like the age is catching up on him. Maybe, one more year after this is his best chance to get #8.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Pullrod wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:58 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:54 pm
Bahrain - Red Bull
Emilia Romagna - Draw
Portugal - Mercedes
Spain - Mercedes
Monaco - Red Bull
Azerbaijan - Red Bull
France - Mercedes

3-3

Verstappen looks to have a slither more pace than Hamilton at key times. That brake magic error might haunt him. Long season though.
Based on what?
Without the T1 mistake from VER it would have been a very boring race.
People needs to accept that this is 2021 and that Mercedes is not dominant anymore.

How can Mercedes be the better car if VER and PER are 1 - 3 whilst HAM and BOT 2 - 4?

I am tired of reading people downplaying RB speed just to hype VER.
I find your line of reasoning quite amusing and ironic. You have no problem with F1Tyrant giving Bahrain to Red Bull, despite the fact that Mercedes finished 1-3, but you don't accept the reverse in France.

You were one of the people who has been insisting for years that Verstappen is an overrated driver. Now that he is outperforming Hamilton in equal cars, you overestimate the Red Bull while downplaying the Mercedes to make your point. That is quite comical, but also very predictable.

Pullrod
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Pullrod »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:09 am
Pullrod wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:58 pm
F1Tyrant wrote:
Sun Jun 20, 2021 2:54 pm
Bahrain - Red Bull
Emilia Romagna - Draw
Portugal - Mercedes
Spain - Mercedes
Monaco - Red Bull
Azerbaijan - Red Bull
France - Mercedes

3-3

Verstappen looks to have a slither more pace than Hamilton at key times. That brake magic error might haunt him. Long season though.
Based on what?
Without the T1 mistake from VER it would have been a very boring race.
People needs to accept that this is 2021 and that Mercedes is not dominant anymore.

How can Mercedes be the better car if VER and PER are 1 - 3 whilst HAM and BOT 2 - 4?

I am tired of reading people downplaying RB speed just to hype VER.
I find your line of reasoning quite amusing and ironic. You have no problem with F1Tyrant giving Bahrain to Red Bull, despite the fact that Mercedes finished 1-3, but you don't accept the reverse in France.

You were one of the people who has been insisting for years that Verstappen is an overrated driver. Now that he is outperforming Hamilton in equal cars, you overestimate the Red Bull while downplaying the Mercedes to make your point. That is quite comical, but also very predictable.
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.

I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.

But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.

The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.

People who are out for Hamilton fell short with Alonso but with Verstappen they have their golden occasion.

Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?

Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.

Things could change of course, but as of now they are not equal to my eyes. The rankings even reflect this.

VER 131
HAM 119
PER 84
NOR 76
BOT 59

KingVoid
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.

Pullrod
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Pullrod »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:56 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 2:46 am
My view has not changed one bit.
Overrated in the sense that he is viewed as better than what he really is.
I have seen nothing to suggest THIS Verstappen with THIS car is any better than the ROOKIE Hamilton.
And so far this season I have seen nothing to suggest that a far more experienced Hamilton is any better than this version of Verstappen. They are both driving equal cars and Verstappen is 12 points ahead, which should be more if not for a Baku tyre explosion that was out of his control.
But at no point in Hamilton's career was he compared to Senna or Schumacher(he was no better than Montoya or Jacques if my memory serves me well) but a guy (Verstappen) who fails to take poles and has a few wins is already better than all the greats combined.
The fact that Verstappen is compared to the greats at such a young age is a testament to his incredible talent. Everyone can see it, and that is where the hype comes from. The fact that you can't see it tells me that you have a very poor eye for driver talent.

I have spoken to numerous Hamilton fans like F1Tyrant, TomNokoe (from Autosport), and Sennafan24 (from Autosport) who are slowly coming to the realization that Verstappen might be every bit Hamilton's equal, if not slightly better.
The cars are equal in the heads of those who are looking for a stick to beat Lewis/Mercedes because GPS data analysis suggest otherwise.
Please show and explain the GPS data you have which proves that Mercedes is inferior to Red Bull?

In the words of Toto Wolff, Mercedes was the fastest car in Imola and France on race day. You add that onto Portugal and Spain, and you end up with a car that was superior in 4/7 weekends so far.
Perez last stints makes me think that THIS RedBull is better than people want us to believe. It is convenient and better for the show to see it as equal to the Mercedes or even inferior. After all, is not HAM nothing without a superior car?
Oh dear, you actually decided to bring the second drivers into the equation. Bad move.

Perez had great pace in the second half of the race because he went long in the first stint. His pace in the first stint was vastly inferior to Bottas. Perez only looked fast once he had a clear tyre advantage over the Mercedes boys.

If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?
Until NOW, RedBull is ahead and if things stay the same, Verstappen will do no worse than 2nd in the remaining races whilst Hamilton will not have this luxury.
The reason why Hamilton has not finished top 2 at every race this season is because of his own mistakes, not the car.

Bottas was running 2nd in Monaco before the wheelnut failure, so please explain to me why Hamilton could not have finished 2nd in that race, if he did not underperform so badly in qualifying?

As for Baku, Hamilton had the race win in the palm of his hands, but made a huge mistake.

Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.
I have been here long enough to see the same dynamics at play with the same usual suspects. You are quick to call out Lewis fans who recognized Verstappen talent, but what about you? Will you say you have zero agenda?

It is great thing HAM didn't win Baku otherwise his would have been called lucky forever.
Verstappen's driving is the reason why he's finishing every weekend in the top 2, not his car.

If you believe this part, you will be very confident that if hey were to swap cars and run the same races the result would be the same(since the cars are equal, I heard) . Would you bet on that?


If you look at the season overall, you will realize that Bottas has outqualified Perez 5-2 and outraced him 3-2, but apparently Perez is showing how good the Red Bull is eh?

Perez didn't start the year very well.. And were spending the first part of races behind slower cars. His words. Marko's words. And not long ago they were asking him to hurry his learning process to help Verstappen.
Perez is not a good qualifier and would be beaten by at least 7-8 drivers today in Q3.

Mercedes is fundamentally a difficult car to set up, it has a narrow operating window so to think that Verstappen would just come in and do his magic with pole and P1, P2 at worst is fantasy.
You underestimate how good RedBull is. Ricciardo and Vettel outside of that environment look like different drivers.

KingVoid
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:07 am
If you believe this part, you will be very confident that if hey were to swap cars and run the same races the result would be the same(since the cars are equal, I heard) . Would you bet on that?
Look at the races where Hamilton failed to finish top 2:

Monaco - Bottas was in second place until the pit stop failure
Baku - Hamilton had victory in the palm of his hand until he switched his braking balance

Apart from that, Hamilton finishes 1st or 2nd every weekend.

Tell me, how exactly does Hamilton not enjoy the same "luxury" as Verstappen to finish 1st or 2nd every weekend? The car is clearly good enough, but the driver has made mistakes and had off-weekends.
Perez didn't start the year very well.. And were spending the first part of races behind slower cars. His words. Marko's words. And not long ago they were asking him to hurry his learning process to help Verstappen.
You don't have to go all the way back to the beginning of the year. In Paul Ricard, Bottas was faster than Perez on equal tyres, and Perez beat him in the end because of strategy. Bottas is not a better driver than Perez (certainly not on Sundays), so what does that tell you about Mercedes vs Red Bull's pace?
Mercedes is fundamentally a difficult car to set up, it has a narrow operating window so to think that Verstappen would just come in and do his magic with pole and P1, P2 at worst is fantasy.
The way in which you downplay the strength of Mercedes to hype up Hamilton's performances this season is frankly shameless.

Hamilton's results this season:

1, 2, 1, 1, 7, 15, 2

7 = a weekend where Bottas was in 2nd place until his pit stop misfortune
15 = should have been the win if not for a huge mistake

All this talk about how poor Mercedes is, but with better driver performance, constant 1st and 2nd place finishes could have easily been possible.
You underestimate how good RedBull is. Ricciardo and Vettel outside of that environment look like different drivers.
Ricciardo looked terrific in his two seasons at Renault. He scored multiple podiums with midfield cars, and easily brushed aside Hulkenberg and Ocon. His bad start at McLaren does not negate that.

Pullrod
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Pullrod »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:38 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:07 am
If you believe this part, you will be very confident that if hey were to swap cars and run the same races the result would be the same(since the cars are equal, I heard) . Would you bet on that?
Look at the races where Hamilton failed to finish top 2:

Monaco - Bottas was in second place until the pit stop failure
Baku - Hamilton had victory in the palm of his hand until he switched his braking balance

Apart from that, Hamilton finishes 1st or 2nd every weekend.

Tell me, how exactly does Hamilton not enjoy the same "luxury" as Verstappen to finish 1st or 2nd every weekend? The car is clearly good enough, but the driver has made mistakes and had off-weekends.
Perez didn't start the year very well.. And were spending the first part of races behind slower cars. His words. Marko's words. And not long ago they were asking him to hurry his learning process to help Verstappen.
You don't have to go all the way back to the beginning of the year. In Paul Ricard, Bottas was faster than Perez on equal tyres, and Perez beat him in the end because of strategy. Bottas is not a better driver than Perez (certainly not on Sundays), so what does that tell you about Mercedes vs Red Bull's pace?
Mercedes is fundamentally a difficult car to set up, it has a narrow operating window so to think that Verstappen would just come in and do his magic with pole and P1, P2 at worst is fantasy.
The way in which you downplay the strength of Mercedes to hype up Hamilton's performances this season is frankly shameless.

Hamilton's results this season:

1, 2, 1, 1, 7, 15, 2

7 = a weekend where Bottas was in 2nd place until his pit stop misfortune
15 = should have been the win if not for a huge mistake

All this talk about how poor Mercedes is, but with better driver performance, constant 1st and 2nd place finishes could have easily been possible.
You underestimate how good RedBull is. Ricciardo and Vettel outside of that environment look like different drivers.
Ricciardo looked terrific in his two seasons at Renault. He scored multiple podiums with midfield cars, and easily brushed aside Hulkenberg and Ocon. His bad start at McLaren does not negate that.
It is pointless exercise since you are incapable of replying and keep moving goal posts.

Are you confident, if the cars were switched between Hamilton and Verstappen Tha the rankings would be the same? It is a simple question.

I am confident in this RedBull Hamilton would have had not only more poles but also wins.

It is easy to talk about "mistakes"(of both HAM and BOT) when you can clearly see they(Mercedes) are at the limit.

I have no idea why you want to even include Baku where Hamilton would have been lucky to score those 26 points.

We are talking about car/team performance and to call them equal is simply ridiculous. Things can change but as of now RedBull is ahead according to engineers. NOT ME.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Exediron »

I'd just like to interject that all I believe the engineers (of both teams) seem to agree on is that the Red Bull is faster in a straight line. I don't believe I've seen either team commit to the idea of Red Bull having the all-around faster car.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:52 am
Are you confident, if the cars were switched between Hamilton and Verstappen Tha the rankings would be the same? It is a simple question.

I am confident in this RedBull Hamilton would have had not only more poles but also wins.
And your confidence is baseless.

If Verstappen drove a Mercedes, I believe that he wins in Imola, Portugal, Spain, gets at least a podium in Monaco, and wins in France.
It is easy to talk about "mistakes"(of both HAM and BOT) when you can clearly see they(Mercedes) are at the limit.
Hamilton switching his own brake bias has nothing to do with him driving a car on the limit, that mistake is caused by carelessness and lack of concentration.
We are talking about car/team performance and to call them equal is simply ridiculous. Things can change but as of now RedBull is ahead according to engineers. NOT ME.
Please namedrop those engineers you are speaking about.

KingVoid
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:01 am
I'd just like to interject that all I believe the engineers (of both teams) seem to agree on is that the Red Bull is faster in a straight line. I don't believe I've seen either team commit to the idea of Red Bull having the all-around faster car.
France was actually the first weekend where Red Bull was faster in a straight line. Red Bull had better straight line speed in Bahrain qualifying, but they detuned their engine in the race because of software overheating problems. Then until Baku, Red Bull was constantly slower than Mercedes in a straight line. The reliability upgrade introduced in France has helped them run at a higher engine setting without overheating.

Pullrod
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Pullrod »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 7:40 am
Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:52 am
Are you confident, if the cars were switched between Hamilton and Verstappen Tha the rankings would be the same? It is a simple question.

I am confident in this RedBull Hamilton would have had not only more poles but also wins.
And your confidence is baseless.

If Verstappen drove a Mercedes, I believe that he wins in Imola, Portugal, Spain, gets at least a podium in Monaco, and wins in France.
It is easy to talk about "mistakes"(of both HAM and BOT) when you can clearly see they(Mercedes) are at the limit.
Hamilton switching his own brake bias has nothing to do with him driving a car on the limit, that mistake is caused by carelessness and lack of concentration.
We are talking about car/team performance and to call them equal is simply ridiculous. Things can change but as of now RedBull is ahead according to engineers. NOT ME.
Please namedrop those engineers you are speaking about.
1) IMOLA was downforce(it was wet) same as MONACO where RedBull had Mercedes covered. So no idea how you think Verstappen would have won those weekends in a Mercedes.
Please check the gap Verstappen put in the first laps when it was wet and Mercedes were struggling to warm their tyres. Where was Bottas? battling with Williams and all the cr*p.

2) FRANCE no idea how you came up with this. There is no one better than HAM at preserving the tyres so VER in the same situation would have lost many laps before the end. And he missed the the first corner(like he did), it would have been even worse.

MONACO disaster was on Lewis AND the team. RedBull just doesn't have problems setting up their cars.
BAKU was a mistake but not the kind to attribute to carelessness or lack of concentration. It was a combination of a stressful situation and a very bad design(of the magic button).

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by KingVoid »

Pullrod wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 8:17 am
1) IMOLA was downforce(it was wet) same as MONACO where RedBull had Mercedes covered. So no idea how you think Verstappen would have won those weekends in a Mercedes.
Please check the gap Verstappen put in the first laps when it was wet and Mercedes were struggling to warm their tyres. Where was Bottas? battling with Williams and all the cr*p.
Hilarious how you keep moving the goalpost.

Bottas' performance at Imola is apparently evidence that Mercedes was inferior, but the fact that Perez was clearly losing to Bottas in Monaco until the pitstop disaster is ignored. If you're going to use the number 2 drivers as reference points, at least do it consistently.
2) FRANCE no idea how you came up with this. There is no one better than HAM at preserving the tyres so VER in the same situation would have lost many laps before the end. And he missed the the first corner(like he did), it would have been even worse.
You love stating your opinion on what would happen in hypothetical situations that are unprovable, so let me play the same game. Mercedes was the fastest car on race pace in France. Verstappen in Hamilton's situation would never have been undercut in the first place by a slower car.
MONACO disaster was on Lewis AND the team. RedBull just doesn't have problems setting up their cars. BAKU was a mistake but not the kind to attribute to carelessness or lack of concentration. It was a combination of a stressful situation and a very bad design(of the magic button).
If the bad design is to blame, then you would expect it to happen on a regular basis. How often have either Hamilton or Bottas accidentally turned on their magic button when racing? Baku 2021 is the only time I can remember. Therefore it was carelessness and a lapse of concertation from Hamilton.

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