Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:03 am


Er - what?? So as per your thinking Russell wasn't quicker than Bottas in Sakhir - this coming from a person who accuses me of having a bias :lol:

I suppose there is no arguing with someone who can't see the forest for the trees.
I just look at the facts, Bottas outqualified Russell despite messing up his last lap which would have been quicker, Russell on the same tyres was unable to drive away from Bottas who was happy to sit 3 seconds behind, I daresay that Bottas would have gone for the undercut if Russell had not been his teammate.

What was this you was saying about how well Trulli would have done at Mercedes because he was a good qualifier and then whoever leads the first lap gets the preferential treatment which gives them the best chance of then winning the race. :)
And this is where your bias stops you from viewing things objectively - how about replacing this with "Bottas couldn't live with Russell who managed his pace once he opened up a 3 second gap"? No matter how you view it, for the incumbent to be dispatched off the way Bottas was by a near-rookie (wearing ill-fitting shoes) is a thrashing.
So Russell could have gone quicker but chose not to even at the point he was close to pitting for fresh tyres, seriously?
This is not a Russell vs Bottas thread, so I suggest you create one if you're looking for a discussion on that matter. Russell schooled the incumbent driver in the Merc, which tells us that Bottas' race pace is hardly the measure to judge the pace of the Merc vs the Red Bull.

Perez is renowned for his race pace, yet I don't see many making the argument we ought to be looking at his pace to make the Merc-RBR comparison. So far this year the Merc has been the quicker car, and decisively so.
You brought Russell into this thread with this opening post and then look to take the high ground, outstanding.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.
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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:00 am
Johnson wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
No, I'm not telling you anything. I am just showing you that if Russell built an 8 second lead in Bahrain then Verstappen built a 5.6 second lead in Spain. Same rules for same situations.

You did not answer my question, was Verstappen quicker to build such a comfortable lead?

Do you not think it would be more honest to say, Russell built a 3 second lead and Verstappen was unable to build more than 1.5 second lead. You know, actually using the part of the race were both were on the same strategy?
OK, that's fair - I'll go with the fact that Russell built a 3 second lead and was comfortably going to win the race.

This is after being an emergency replacement for the race - in a new team with ill-fitting shoes, he manages to achieve that. Against a driver who has been racing in that car for the 15 previous rounds (and has been driving for the team for 4 years) - in my book it is absolutely schooling the incumbent. You can argue about the gaps all you want, but nobody can see this was anything other than Russell putting Bottas in his place. Now imagine how Russell would have performed if he had 15 races in the car and shoes that actually fit.
Yes I agree with you. Russell outperformed Bottas in Bahrain. You did not need to exaggerate it.

What I was pulling you up on was the exaggeration and selective way you selected the gap at its greatest when they were running different strategies and I thought it was iron just days before Max had did the same and we both know you would not apply that selective gap to that situation.

It makes you just come across as biased. Correct me if I am wrong, but yes Russell did put an overtake on Bottas but wasn't Rusell on a brand new medium tyre and Bottas on 21 lap old hards due to the mixup? This again (ironically) brings us to Spain, did Hamilton put an amazing pass on Verstappen or did that also have something to do with tyres?

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:26 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:10 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 12:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:17 am

I just look at the facts, Bottas outqualified Russell despite messing up his last lap which would have been quicker, Russell on the same tyres was unable to drive away from Bottas who was happy to sit 3 seconds behind, I daresay that Bottas would have gone for the undercut if Russell had not been his teammate.

What was this you was saying about how well Trulli would have done at Mercedes because he was a good qualifier and then whoever leads the first lap gets the preferential treatment which gives them the best chance of then winning the race. :)
And this is where your bias stops you from viewing things objectively - how about replacing this with "Bottas couldn't live with Russell who managed his pace once he opened up a 3 second gap"? No matter how you view it, for the incumbent to be dispatched off the way Bottas was by a near-rookie (wearing ill-fitting shoes) is a thrashing.
So Russell could have gone quicker but chose not to even at the point he was close to pitting for fresh tyres, seriously?
This is not a Russell vs Bottas thread, so I suggest you create one if you're looking for a discussion on that matter. Russell schooled the incumbent driver in the Merc, which tells us that Bottas' race pace is hardly the measure to judge the pace of the Merc vs the Red Bull.

Perez is renowned for his race pace, yet I don't see many making the argument we ought to be looking at his pace to make the Merc-RBR comparison. So far this year the Merc has been the quicker car, and decisively so.
You brought Russell into this thread with this opening post and then look to take the high ground, outstanding.
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 1:44 pm
He wasn't anywhere near Hamilton, so that explanation doesn't cut it.

If anything I think Bottas is overrated by many on this forum, simply because they have to make Hamilton somehow look better. Let's not forget that a near rookie walked into his team-mate's car midseason last year for a single race and schooled him. Bottas and Perez have been established to be at a similar level, and you don't need me to tell you what the gaps there are at Red Bull. Perez is new to the team, sure - but Russell was literally stepping in for one race and still (quite easily) beat Bottas for race pace.

Context and subtlety are clearly both lost on you.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Johnson wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:35 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:00 am
Johnson wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 9:02 am
No, I'm not telling you anything. I am just showing you that if Russell built an 8 second lead in Bahrain then Verstappen built a 5.6 second lead in Spain. Same rules for same situations.

You did not answer my question, was Verstappen quicker to build such a comfortable lead?

Do you not think it would be more honest to say, Russell built a 3 second lead and Verstappen was unable to build more than 1.5 second lead. You know, actually using the part of the race were both were on the same strategy?
OK, that's fair - I'll go with the fact that Russell built a 3 second lead and was comfortably going to win the race.

This is after being an emergency replacement for the race - in a new team with ill-fitting shoes, he manages to achieve that. Against a driver who has been racing in that car for the 15 previous rounds (and has been driving for the team for 4 years) - in my book it is absolutely schooling the incumbent. You can argue about the gaps all you want, but nobody can see this was anything other than Russell putting Bottas in his place. Now imagine how Russell would have performed if he had 15 races in the car and shoes that actually fit.
Yes I agree with you. Russell outperformed Bottas in Bahrain. You did not need to exaggerate it.

What I was pulling you up on was the exaggeration and selective way you selected the gap at its greatest when they were running different strategies and I thought it was iron just days before Max had did the same and we both know you would not apply that selective gap to that situation.

It makes you just come across as biased. Correct me if I am wrong, but yes Russell did put an overtake on Bottas but wasn't Rusell on a brand new medium tyre and Bottas on 21 lap old hards due to the mixup? This again (ironically) brings us to Spain, did Hamilton put an amazing pass on Verstappen or did that also have something to do with tyres?
I conceded that point to you - you're right, it was an exaggeration on my part. I do stick to my point here that Bottas is not the benchmark when judging the pace of the car - Perez is widely considered a stronger racer, and yet I don't see the same fan base comparing car performance based on how well/badly Perez does. Why is Bottas being beaten by Verstappen considered to be showing that the Merc is somehow equal/worse than the RBR? I would think Bottas needs a half a second a lap advantage in car pace over Verstappen to beat him.


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A.J.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Here we have Christian Horner conceding that the Merc has been faster in every race: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... 1/6506542/
Christian Horner wrote: I think the Mercedes, and we've seen it since Bahrain, their race pace has been better than ours at each GP that we've seen so far

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:22 pm
Here we have Christian Horner conceding that the Merc has been faster in every race: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... 1/6506542/
Christian Horner wrote: I think the Mercedes, and we've seen it since Bahrain, their race pace has been better than ours at each GP that we've seen so far
I suggest that you either look up the definition of 'every' or 'since'

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:26 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:22 pm
Here we have Christian Horner conceding that the Merc has been faster in every race: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... 1/6506542/
Christian Horner wrote: I think the Mercedes, and we've seen it since Bahrain, their race pace has been better than ours at each GP that we've seen so far
I suggest that you either look up the definition of 'every' or 'since'
Touche - but it doesn't contradict my analysis, that both cars were equal on race pace in Bahrain (so split 0.5-0.5), with the Merc being faster at every other race so far.

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F1Tyrant
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:45 pm
...you're right, it was an exaggeration on my part, partly to rile up the selective fan base (you know who they are).
I've long suspected you rather enjoy baiting us Hamilton advocates. Nice to have it confirmed! :lol:
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:31 pm
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:26 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:22 pm
Here we have Christian Horner conceding that the Merc has been faster in every race: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... 1/6506542/
Christian Horner wrote: I think the Mercedes, and we've seen it since Bahrain, their race pace has been better than ours at each GP that we've seen so far
I suggest that you either look up the definition of 'every' or 'since'
Touche - but it doesn't contradict my analysis, that both cars were equal on race pace in Bahrain (so split 0.5-0.5), with the Merc being faster at every other race so far.
I think that in Bahrain Red Bull definitely had an advantage as Verstappen was able to close down Hamilton with a compromised car. At the subsequent tracks the Mercedes has had better race pace, but we have also had cooler Sundays, as the weather gets warmer, this will swing back towards Red Bull - but how much will remain to be seen. On Saturdays though, it's difficult to say who has the faster package - I think that the Red Bull has more ultimate pace but they are clearly having to sacrifice ultimate lap pace to get a better race set up. So 'in theory' Red Bull has a faster car for qualifying, but in practice the cars are probably about equal.

The reality is that while there will be many arguments about who is faster, Max or Lewis, in reality these are two drivers who are both capable of extracting the maximum from their package, so the fact that they have been qualifying so close to each other this season is a strong indicator that the two cars are pretty much even on qualifying pace in practice.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 5:35 pm
A.J. wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 2:45 pm
...you're right, it was an exaggeration on my part, partly to rile up the selective fan base (you know who they are).
I've long suspected you rather enjoy baiting us Hamilton advocates. Nice to have it confirmed! :lol:
:-P

To be honest you aren't one of the absurd ones :D

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Option or Prime »

Seems that Hamilton has successfully brought the " flexible rear wing issue " to the attention of the FIA who will install onboard cameras to check for rear wing movement even if the wings pass the current flexibility tests.
No teams mentioned by name of course!

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Johnson
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Johnson »

I can see why they acted, watch it bend back under braking -

https://youtu.be/Mni8tXPPh24

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Mayhem
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Mayhem »

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kleefton
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by kleefton »

IMo the cars are close but the Merc is slightly better and Hamilton is slightly outdriving Verstappen. One thing that keeps coming up with the Redbull is the way it violently loses grip under full load conditions in a flat out corner or on corner exit. That trait actually cost Max a pole position in Portugal, two chances at overtaking Ham for the win in Bahrain, and a lost position in Portugal. That is a trait of a very poorly behaved car. But the car has been that way for years and they haven't changed it. I very much doubt that car can beat Mercedes and Hamilton for a season but hey, I could be wrong. As long as Mercedes don't stop developing I don't think Redbull will catch or surpass them.

But Hamilton needs to stop opening the door on lap 1 for Max. Max needs to learn that he has to give more space and can't just push people off the circuit and expect to get away with it. Hamilton is currently leading the championship so if they both crash and DNF it's advantage Hamilton. So yeah... time for lewis to send a message.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by tootsie323 »

Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Clarky »

This is a great video.

Interesting very interesting.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am
Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
Exactly, with Bottas leading the Mercedes challenge this year Verstappen would have 4 wins and we'd be talking about how it is 2013 all over again.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Option or Prime »

kleefton wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:27 am

But Hamilton needs to stop opening the door on lap 1 for Max. Max needs to learn that he has to give more space and can't just push people off the circuit and expect to get away with it. Hamilton is currently leading the championship so if they both crash and DNF it's advantage Hamilton. So yeah... time for lewis to send a message.
I wonder if that is Hamilton making a mistake on lap 1 or the Red Bulls being able to get their tyres up to temperature. It may be that if Mercedes have issues warming up cold tyres then lap 1 is the obvious place where it would show. Hamilton may just be vulnerable early in the race. It may well be an issue I don't know but it does make for a better Grand Prix!

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1Tyrant »

Option or Prime wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 8:15 am
It may be that if Mercedes have issues warming up cold tyres then lap 1 is the obvious place where it would show.
Bingo! Red Bull has an advantage with tyre warm up.
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A.J.
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am
Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
:thumbup:

Agree with all - Hamilton is the reason why the Merc is leading, although let's not forget the massive slice of luck he enjoyed at Imola without which Verstappen would be ahead.

I do think Verstappen is pushing the RBR harder in order to stay closer to the Mercs - the gap between Bottas and Perez is more accurately representative to the gap between the cars.

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:38 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am
Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
:thumbup:

Agree with all - Hamilton is the reason why the Merc is leading, although let's not forget the massive slice of luck he enjoyed at Imola without which Verstappen would be ahead.

I do think Verstappen is pushing the RBR harder in order to stay closer to the Mercs - the gap between Bottas and Perez is more accurately representative to the gap between the cars.
If there had been no red flag and Hamilton finished 8th with Fastest Lap in Imola, or 7th without, either of which he would have easily done, he would still be leading the WDC today.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:58 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:38 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am
Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
:thumbup:

Agree with all - Hamilton is the reason why the Merc is leading, although let's not forget the massive slice of luck he enjoyed at Imola without which Verstappen would be ahead.

I do think Verstappen is pushing the RBR harder in order to stay closer to the Mercs - the gap between Bottas and Perez is more accurately representative to the gap between the cars.
If there had been no red flag and Hamilton finished 8th with Fastest Lap in Imola, or 7th without, either of which he would have easily done, he would still be leading the WDC today.
Haven't calculated the exact numbers, but I trust you have :thumbup:

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Alienturnedhuman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:17 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:58 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:38 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am
Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
:thumbup:

Agree with all - Hamilton is the reason why the Merc is leading, although let's not forget the massive slice of luck he enjoyed at Imola without which Verstappen would be ahead.

I do think Verstappen is pushing the RBR harder in order to stay closer to the Mercs - the gap between Bottas and Perez is more accurately representative to the gap between the cars.
If there had been no red flag and Hamilton finished 8th with Fastest Lap in Imola, or 7th without, either of which he would have easily done, he would still be leading the WDC today.
Haven't calculated the exact numbers, but I trust you have :thumbup:
He's presently 14 points ahead, received 18 + 1 in Imola, so zero in Imola puts him 5 behind. 8th place is 4 points + 1 for FL makes him level with Verstappen, with more wins on countback. If Verstappen gets FL, then he would be 6 points ahead of Hamilton, so Hamilton would need the 6 for 7th place - and then it goes to countback again.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:25 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:17 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:58 am
A.J. wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:38 am
tootsie323 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 6:31 am
Given a choice of cars so far I'd plump for the Mercedes over the Red Bull. It does look marginally better in race trim. Having said that, it would not be converted int a championship leader without Hamilton at the wheel. Likewise, I don't think that the RB would be running Merc so close without Verstappen. We are seeing two top drivers going head to head - it's great.
:thumbup:

Agree with all - Hamilton is the reason why the Merc is leading, although let's not forget the massive slice of luck he enjoyed at Imola without which Verstappen would be ahead.

I do think Verstappen is pushing the RBR harder in order to stay closer to the Mercs - the gap between Bottas and Perez is more accurately representative to the gap between the cars.
If there had been no red flag and Hamilton finished 8th with Fastest Lap in Imola, or 7th without, either of which he would have easily done, he would still be leading the WDC today.
Haven't calculated the exact numbers, but I trust you have :thumbup:
He's presently 14 points ahead, received 18 + 1 in Imola, so zero in Imola puts him 5 behind. 8th place is 4 points + 1 for FL makes him level with Verstappen, with more wins on countback. If Verstappen gets FL, then he would be 6 points ahead of Hamilton, so Hamilton would need the 6 for 7th place - and then it goes to countback again.
Thanks, I believed you even without the breakup :thumbup: :D

Christian Horner summing up my feelings on this so far:

Horner expressed a weariness over Mercedes trying to deflect attention on to Red Bull by saying the challengers are favourites over the reigning champions.

I think far too much has been made of who the favourite is. Go to the bookies if you want to see who the favourite is.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by SR1 »

As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Greenman »

[quote="A.J.

.......Christian Horner summing up my feelings on this so far:

".... Horner expressed a weariness over Mercedes trying to deflect attention on to Red Bull by saying the challengers are favourites over the reigning champions........."

[/quote]


Shouldn't Horner be expressing his weariness over Red Bull being found guilty of not obeying the regulations ?

.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
As I'm not German, I can only go by what I have heard - but I was under the impression that they are the German equivalent of the Sun? Which would take away from the credibility of them as a source?

Although, maybe that's just one of those internet myths, if AMuS is a credible source on F1 matters then that will add weight to this analysis of 2-2. Personally I think it's Bahrain clearly to Red Bull, Imola even, Portugal leaning to Merc and Spain clearly to Merc. We will see a shift towards Red Bull in the hotter races, but by hot much remains to be seen.

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by F1_Ernie »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:40 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
[color=#000057]As I'm not German, I can only go by what I have heard - but I was under the impression that they are the German equivalent of the Sun? Which would take away from the credibility of them as a source?

Although, maybe that's just one of those internet myths, if AMuS is a credible source on F1 matters then that will add weight to this analysis of 2-2. Personally I think it's Bahrain clearly to Red Bull, Imola even, Portugal leaning to Merc and Spain clearly to Merc. We will see a shift towards Red Bull in the hotter races, but by hot much remains to be seen. [/color]
Im not sure were you got that idea from? I have been reading Amus for years and personally think they are very unbiased and credible sources around.
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2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
Yes we relied on AMuS as an arbiter against a strong Ferrari can never be quicker poster, I was never convinced when I gave the Italian race to Mercedes a kind of being over fair.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 170 (1st)


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pokerman
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by pokerman »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:40 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
As I'm not German, I can only go by what I have heard - but I was under the impression that they are the German equivalent of the Sun? Which would take away from the credibility of them as a source?

Although, maybe that's just one of those internet myths, if AMuS is a credible source on F1 matters then that will add weight to this analysis of 2-2. Personally I think it's Bahrain clearly to Red Bull, Imola even, Portugal leaning to Merc and Spain clearly to Merc. We will see a shift towards Red Bull in the hotter races, but by hot much remains to be seen.
I think you have them mixed up with another German publication which has a similar name, AMuS is a motorsport publication.

Edit: Just seen the name crop up maybe you're thinking of Autobild?
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 170 (1st)


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2014: Champion

Siao7
Posts: 9339
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Siao7 »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 11:20 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:40 am
SR1 wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:27 pm
As part of the 2017-2018 Merc v Ferrari threads, the AMuS Power Rankings were often a useful source of reference. I thought it would be interesting to include them in the current discussions. Here's the rankings for the first 4 races and which car performance they rated best.

Bahrain-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

Emilia Romagna-Red Bull
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... agna-2021/

Portugal-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... es-spitze/

Spain-Mercedes
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... k-ferrari/
[color=#000057]As I'm not German, I can only go by what I have heard - but I was under the impression that they are the German equivalent of the Sun? Which would take away from the credibility of them as a source?

Although, maybe that's just one of those internet myths, if AMuS is a credible source on F1 matters then that will add weight to this analysis of 2-2. Personally I think it's Bahrain clearly to Red Bull, Imola even, Portugal leaning to Merc and Spain clearly to Merc. We will see a shift towards Red Bull in the hotter races, but by hot much remains to be seen. [/color]
Im not sure were you got that idea from? I have been reading Amus for years and personally think they are very unbiased and credible sources around.
Yeah, that's the Bild that's the tabloid crap newspaper, not AMuS

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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Greenman wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:08 am
A.J. wrote:

.......Christian Horner summing up my feelings on this so far:

.... Horner expressed a weariness over Mercedes trying to deflect attention on to Red Bull by saying the challengers are favourites over the reigning champions.........

Shouldn't Horner be expressing his weariness over Red Bull being found guilty of not obeying the regulations ?

.
Has the FIA already found Red Bull guilty?

Answer is no. Their car is perfectly legal - they have no obligation to do anything beyond what is specified in the rules and what is being tested.

Now perhaps you can explain the smoky Merc engines from 2020.

Option or Prime
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Location: UK

Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Option or Prime »

A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 10:27 am
Greenman wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:08 am
A.J. wrote:

.......Christian Horner summing up my feelings on this so far:

.... Horner expressed a weariness over Mercedes trying to deflect attention on to Red Bull by saying the challengers are favourites over the reigning champions.........

Shouldn't Horner be expressing his weariness over Red Bull being found guilty of not obeying the regulations ?

.
Has the FIA already found Red Bull guilty?

Answer is no. Their car is perfectly legal - they have no obligation to do anything beyond what is specified in the rules and what is being tested.

Now perhaps you can explain the smoky Merc engines from 2020.
Think about that last sentence, its the same answer you have just given isn't it?

Their car is perfectly legal - they have no obligation to do anything beyond what is specified in the rules and what is being tested.

A.J.
Posts: 1008
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by A.J. »

Option or Prime wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 10:33 am
A.J. wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 10:27 am
Greenman wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 9:08 am
A.J. wrote:

.......Christian Horner summing up my feelings on this so far:

.... Horner expressed a weariness over Mercedes trying to deflect attention on to Red Bull by saying the challengers are favourites over the reigning champions.........

Shouldn't Horner be expressing his weariness over Red Bull being found guilty of not obeying the regulations ?

.
Has the FIA already found Red Bull guilty?

Answer is no. Their car is perfectly legal - they have no obligation to do anything beyond what is specified in the rules and what is being tested.

Now perhaps you can explain the smoky Merc engines from 2020.
Think about that last sentence, its the same answer you have just given isn't it?

Their car is perfectly legal - they have no obligation to do anything beyond what is specified in the rules and what is being tested.
Indeed it is - which is why I put it down there as a rhetorical argument. Greenman has been very vocal on RBR and their wings, but I think he fails to understand that it is not the team's job to do anything beyond what is specified in the rules.

Greenman
Posts: 485
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Greenman »

.

The regulations state that the wings should not flex.

Red Bull has failed to comply with that regulation - they are in the wrong.

The false argument that the test(s) is the only requirement was shown to be wrong with the front wing, it equally applies to the rear wing.

Why have people such poor ( and "convienient" ) memories ? Why do they advance KNOWINGLY WRONG arguments, dealt with a decade ago.

.

Siao7
Posts: 9339
Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am

Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Siao7 »

Greenman wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:08 am
.

The regulations state that the wings should not flex.

Red Bull has failed to comply with that regulation - they are in the wrong.

The false argument that the test(s) is the only requirement was shown to be wrong with the front wing, it equally applies to the rear wing.

Why have people such poor ( and "convienient" ) memories ? Why do they advance KNOWINGLY WRONG arguments, dealt with a decade ago.

.
What on earth are you on about? Who is conveniently forgetting what? Who are you accusing of forgetting the bendy wings? This is weird

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tootsie323
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by tootsie323 »

Greenman wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:08 am
.

The regulations state that the wings should not flex.

Red Bull has failed to comply with that regulation - they are in the wrong.

The false argument that the test(s) is the only requirement was shown to be wrong with the front wing, it equally applies to the rear wing.

Why have people such poor ( and "convienient" ) memories ? Why do they advance KNOWINGLY WRONG arguments, dealt with a decade ago.

.
The FIA is implementing a more rigorous test for (rear) wing flexing from 15th June - in what looks like a similar scenario when we had the front wing flexing years ago. I'd say that this isn't so much an issue with forum members memories than with the FIA not extending its original 'clarification' on front wing flexing to the rear wing as well at the time.
Red Bull may not have complied with the spirit, or intention, of the regulation but they have not formally broken it.
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EPROM
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by EPROM »

Greenman wrote:
Tue May 18, 2021 9:08 am
.

The regulations state that the wings should not flex.

Red Bull has failed to comply with that regulation - they are in the wrong.
If that's the case, then all teams are in the wrong - as all wings flex - it's just a matter of how much. If a wing flexes by 0.01mm, it's still flexing. Does that mean that it fails to comply? No, because this is a technical regulation - and you either pass or fail an objective, measurable, quantitative test under controlled conditions. Anything else, it's a crappy technical reg.

This attitude just sounds like sour grapes. Racing teams have traditionally attempted to stretch the envelope of technical regs; in fact, we'd look dimly on a team that does not attempt to maximize its performance within the technical regulations.

Is it not expected of a team to engineer a car optimized to whatever specification is in force? Really now?

Actually, I question why the regs need to change in short order, forcing various ingenious competitors to reengineer parts of their entries to meet tighter new specs in weeks instead of over the normal off-season. In contrast, why did DAS not get banned by a quick rules change early in the season last year?

Greenman
Posts: 485
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Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by Greenman »

.

Why are some people trying to avoid the simple issue that Red Bull have deliberately avoided the regulations ?

Some people want to get all lawyerish by equating ordinary, extremely small, flexing,with extremely large flexing as the speed increases (all as per the front wing fiasco).

And, at least 1, seems to think that deliberate cheating is to be encouraged.

This is all a repeat from a decade ago, and is tedious (and amusing).

.

mikeyg123
Posts: 19084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm

Re: Mercedes vs Red Bull - 2021

Post by mikeyg123 »

Greenman wrote:
Wed May 19, 2021 8:10 am
.

Why are some people trying to avoid the simple issue that Red Bull have deliberately avoided the regulations ?

Some people want to get all lawyerish by equating ordinary, extremely small, flexing,with extremely large flexing as the speed increases (all as per the front wing fiasco).

And, at least 1, seems to think that deliberate cheating is to be encouraged.

This is all a repeat from a decade ago, and is tedious (and amusing).

.
The degree of flex is clearly an important issue as all wings flex. It isn't black and white.

I don't know if the Red Bull are legal or illegal. That's a bit above my level. I'd love to say I trust the FIA to reach a fair conclusion.

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