Help please you kind Pf1ers

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Rank how Coulthard's Team Mates performed against him

Rank how Coulthard's Team Mates performed against him
14
13%
Christian Klien
13
12%
Christian Klien_1
0
No votes
Christian Klien_2
14
13%
Christian Klien_3
0
No votes
Christian Klien_4
0
No votes
Damon Hill
6
5%
Damon Hill_1
9
8%
Damon Hill_2
5
4%
Damon Hill_3
0
No votes
Damon Hill_4
0
No votes
Kimi Raikkonen
8
7%
Kimi Raikkonen_1
10
9%
Kimi Raikkonen_2
1
1%
Kimi Raikkonen_3
0
No votes
Kimi Raikkonen_4
0
No votes
Mark Webber
4
4%
Mark Webber_1
6
5%
Mark Webber_2
5
4%
Mark Webber_3
0
No votes
Mark Webber_4
0
No votes
Mika Häkkinen
11
10%
Mika Häkkinen_1
3
3%
Mika Häkkinen_2
3
3%
Mika Häkkinen_3
0
No votes
Mika Häkkinen_4
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 112

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DOLOMITE
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Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

I've been dicking about with yet-another-stats rating system and I want to see how it performs.

Simply put the aim to to rank a drivers teammates in order of how close they were matched. I won't go into the methodology here because 1) they're all flawed anyway 2) I don't have to and 3) I'm not sure I actually understand it myself.

Anyway I don't have a full set of results in my db so I'm picking DC as my test subject for now.

Idea is simple, but please ensure you understand what you're voting for. It's basically how well that driver performed in relation to old Buzz Lightyear when they were in the same garage. In which drivers did he meet his match and which drivers did he batter like a piece of cheap cod.

Order them best top, but remember to try and avoid just ranking the list against each other - it's how they performed against DC. So if think DC never got near Mika-ka-ka put him top and if you think DC and Webbo well and truly covered but him last.

Aim is to see how close my system comes to these results.

Thank-you in advance.

ah crap - just realised I don't know how to make the Poll a ranking option...
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by F1Tyrant »

Remake with corrected poll?
OVERRATED LEGENDS RACING

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Exediron »

This vote doesn't appear to be ranked as of yet, so I'm going to hold off on voting...
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:00 pm
Remake with corrected poll?
How do you do it? or it something only the mods can do?
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Tufty »

I've flagged the OP to ask the mods to do it - no idea if we mere mortals even can.
Anyone in or near North Wales interested in an RC car racing tournament?

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

Tufty wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:15 pm
I've flagged the OP to ask the mods to do it - no idea if we mere mortals even can.
Thanks Tufty. If we can do it, I can't see how.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

I'll hold off on voting until the poll is sorted out but it's actually quite a touch exercise.

Are we taking into account things like Kimi being very inexperienced in 2002 or are we judging them purely in isolation without any context around the performances?

The mind instantly wants to put Hakkinen top but DC had the beating of him in 2001 and was probably as good overall in 97 as well so if we are judging strictly against DC then I think there is a good claim to put Webber top, Kimi next, then Hill, Hakkinen and Klien.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 am
I'll hold off on voting until the poll is sorted out but it's actually quite a touch exercise.

Are we taking into account things like Kimi being very inexperienced in 2002 or are we judging them purely in isolation without any context around the performances?

The mind instantly wants to put Hakkinen top but DC had the beating of him in 2001 and was probably as good overall in 97 as well so if we are judging strictly against DC then I think there is a good claim to put Webber top, Kimi next, then Hill, Hakkinen and Klien.
Purely results. So your last line is makings sense to me.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:27 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 8:24 am
I'll hold off on voting until the poll is sorted out but it's actually quite a touch exercise.

Are we taking into account things like Kimi being very inexperienced in 2002 or are we judging them purely in isolation without any context around the performances?

The mind instantly wants to put Hakkinen top but DC had the beating of him in 2001 and was probably as good overall in 97 as well so if we are judging strictly against DC then I think there is a good claim to put Webber top, Kimi next, then Hill, Hakkinen and Klien.
Purely results. So your last line is makings sense to me.
Ok cool.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
That's kind of the aim really though to see if the method supports or contradicts your perceptions. Just go with your gut. We all do it with comments like "Bottas outperformed Massa but a greater margin than Alonso did" etc etc
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Mod Yellow »

Tufty wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:15 pm
I've flagged the OP to ask the mods to do it - no idea if we mere mortals even can.
I've passed it onto the man who can, thanks for flagging it up.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:24 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
That's kind of the aim really though to see if the method supports or contradicts your perceptions. Just go with your gut. We all do it with comments like "Bottas outperformed Massa but a greater margin than Alonso did" etc etc
Well that's a lot more recent and I have the data ready to hand, for what you're asking it's pure guesswork without doing the legwork so probably somewhat inaccurate at least in terms of out and out speed.

Generally speaking I get the feeling that Mika was less consistent than Kimi and in respect to Webber by then DC was somewhat past his sell by date.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.
Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Mod Aqua »

Ok, I have updated this to a sortable poll. Message me if it doesn't work...

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Tufty »

Thanks :)
Anyone in or near North Wales interested in an RC car racing tournament?

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.
Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.
Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

Here is how I voted in the poll:
1Mark Webber
2Kimi Raikkonen
3Damon Hill
4Mika Häkkinen
5Christian Klien

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Exediron »

So 100% of us have put Klien last, not surprisingly.

I'm a little surprised by all the Hakkinen #1 votes. I wonder if those are from people misunderstanding the purpose of the vote? While Hakkinen is very likely the best of the five drivers, my feeling is that he did not dominate Coulthard the way Webber for example did.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:13 pm
So 100% of us have put Klien last, not surprisingly.

I'm a little surprised by all the Hakkinen #1 votes. I wonder if those are from people misunderstanding the purpose of the vote? While Hakkinen is very likely the best of the five drivers, my feeling is that he did not dominate Coulthard the way Webber for example did.
Interesting!
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Siao7 »

Sorry Dolo, I just got around doing it.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

Siao7 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:14 am
Sorry Dolo, I just got around doing it.
No apology necessary, you don't owe me anything!

Looks like DC was actually a good test though as I hadn't realised just how much Webber had dominated. I'm guessing peoples perception here is often affected by how good the car was at the time the teammates were together. So we remember Hakkinen being better simply because that difference resulted in podiums, wins and ultimately championships for one driver and not the other. Whereas with DC/Webber they were fighting for lower positions so we don't really notice how close they were to each other. Although some forumers clearly did!
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.
Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.
Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.
It's just that the Hill sample is so small and DC was a rookie, Hill and Webber came up against DC at the bookends of his career, I would be guessing that the results maybe weighted in their favour.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:24 pm
I don't think I will be able to do it without thorough analysis which would take ages, as an overview he seemed to get beat quite easily by Hakkinen, Kimi and Webber, was a bit closer to Hill and better than Klein.
I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.
Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.
Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.
It's just that the Hill sample is so small and DC was a rookie, Hill and Webber came up against DC at the bookends of his career, I would be guessing that the results maybe weighted in their favour.
I agree but that isn't relevant to the question that's being asked. Dolo asked us to judge them strictly on there performance Vs Coulthard, using DC as a constant. So basically assuming DC was performing at that the same level against all of them.

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by Fiki »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:50 pm
I won't go into the methodology here because 1) they're all flawed anyway 2) I don't have to and 3) I'm not sure I actually understand it myself.
:blush:
4) I'm pretty sure I will need your entire data base to work this out...

Or could the person who borrowed my memory of the 00s please return it soon?
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by tootsie323 »

Fiki wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:38 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:50 pm
I won't go into the methodology here because 1) they're all flawed anyway 2) I don't have to and 3) I'm not sure I actually understand it myself.
:blush:
4) I'm pretty sure I will need your entire data base to work this out...

Or could the person who borrowed my memory of the 00s please return it soon?
I think that they came alongside the aahs.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am
OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.
No real surprise with the analysis, Hill and Webber were against DC at his weakest while Mika and Kimi were up against DC in his prime and as I suspected Kimi being the more consistent edged out Mika, then of course Klein being the only driver that DC came out on top of being last.

For the reasons given I don't think we can use the list as a definitive of which drivers were better in respect to one another.
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:20 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:15 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:55 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:17 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:36 pm


I'd argue on pure performance he was closer to Hakkinen than Hill. He was better than Hakkinen in 2001, parts of 2000 and the first half of 97.
Well DC was a rookie against Hill, I just have the memory of DC having a run of poles against Hill, also with Hill and Hakkinen they both had a brief spell against Senna and Mika was much more impressive.
Dolo asked us to factor things like that out. Just judge the performance in isolation of extraneous nuance.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that Hakkinen wasn't better than Hill.
It's just that the Hill sample is so small and DC was a rookie, Hill and Webber came up against DC at the bookends of his career, I would be guessing that the results maybe weighted in their favour.
I agree but that isn't relevant to the question that's being asked. Dolo asked us to judge them strictly on there performance Vs Coulthard, using DC as a constant. So basically assuming DC was performing at that the same level against all of them.
I know and I said in respect to that it was impossible to judge without analysis.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:07 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am
OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.
No real surprise with the analysis, Hill and Webber were against DC at his weakest while Mika and Kimi were up against DC in his prime and as I suspected Kimi being the more consistent edged out Mika, then of course Klein being the only driver that DC came out on top of being last.

For the reasons given I don't think we can use the list as a definitive of which drivers were better in respect to one another.
Do we know that though? If so, how? You have inexperience to explain first 1-2 years maybe, but at what point do we really know a driver is in decline? DC would have been @ 34 when he went to Red Bull with 10 years of experience with a top team. If I was Red Bull signing him, I wouldn't be doing so expecting him to be past his best, but maybe that's weighed up against what you require from the driver and the cost. Do you think Hamilton is past his best? I don't know, maybe you're right but I think we make a lot of judgments about things like this, it would be interesting to see if there's anything to back it up. It would be fascinating to see what the determining factors are - age/experience etc. Verstappen would be an interesting study. 5 Years, 120 races, 10 wins and he's pretty much the same age DC when DC started in F1!

I think the majority of drivers I've seen come in, hit their potential from about their 3rd year, but how long they stay there it's hard to tell.
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

pokerman
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by pokerman »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:53 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:07 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:04 am
OK well some more votes would have been good, but forum seems pretty quiet right now.

So my system compares the following 4 metrics across the two teammates over all their races together:

[Average Qualifying Position
Ahead in Qualifying
Average Finish Position When Both Finished
Ahead When Both Finished

It then balances each driver score as a % for that metric, and finally averages those 4 to give a total.

Worked example for DC vs Hill (25 races)

Av Qualifying: 3.6 / 2.5 (41%/59%)
Ahead in Qualifying: 8 / 17 (32%/68%)
Av Pos When Both Finished: 3.4 / 1.6 (32%/68%)
Ahead When Both Finished: 2/7 (22%/78%)

So across all 4 measures the % come out as DC 32% to Hills 68%

and using that across all the teammates listed in the Poll gives:

David Coulthard vs Mark Webber = 29.1/70.9
David Coulthard vs Damon Hill = 31.8/68.2
David Coulthard vs Kimi Raikkonen = 36.8/63.2
David Coulthard vs Mika Häkkinen = 41.9/58.1
----------------------------------------------------------
David Coulthard vs Christian Klien = 52.9/47.1

So under this system Webber had the biggest margin over DC, DC was most closely matched with Mika and was only actually better than Klien.

Seems harsh!

Thoughts? Does it basically work? How did your list compare?

Some points:
I don't use lap time comparisons because 1) I don't have the data and 2) in the race, a faster lap doesn't indicate the driver was quicker over the race
I haven't compared points hauls...yet. I think I can add them in in a similar way (totals, when both finished etc) but I'm not sure they are going to add anything to the result.
I think I could weight each metric but that's getting a bit subjective and I'm trying let the numbers speak for themselves.


Thoughts/observations?

Any other driver you want me to try it with? I currently only have data up to end of 2015, and a couple of races are missing so have some catching up to do.
No real surprise with the analysis, Hill and Webber were against DC at his weakest while Mika and Kimi were up against DC in his prime and as I suspected Kimi being the more consistent edged out Mika, then of course Klein being the only driver that DC came out on top of being last.

For the reasons given I don't think we can use the list as a definitive of which drivers were better in respect to one another.
Do we know that though? If so, how? You have inexperience to explain first 1-2 years maybe, but at what point do we really know a driver is in decline? DC would have been @ 34 when he went to Red Bull with 10 years of experience with a top team. If I was Red Bull signing him, I wouldn't be doing so expecting him to be past his best, but maybe that's weighed up against what you require from the driver and the cost. Do you think Hamilton is past his best? I don't know, maybe you're right but I think we make a lot of judgments about things like this, it would be interesting to see if there's anything to back it up. It would be fascinating to see what the determining factors are - age/experience etc. Verstappen would be an interesting study. 5 Years, 120 races, 10 wins and he's pretty much the same age DC when DC started in F1!

I think the majority of drivers I've seen come in, hit their potential from about their 3rd year, but how long they stay there it's hard to tell.
DC was 36 when he teamed up with Webber and the following season he was terrible crashing left right and centre and many saw him as being washed up.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 98 (1st)
Pole Positions: 100 (1st)
Podiums: 169 (1st)


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DOLOMITE
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

Anyone give me another driver to try it with?
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

mikeyg123
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:34 pm
Anyone give me another driver to try it with?
How about Trulli? Teamed with Katayama, Panis, Frentzen, Button, Alonso, Ralf Schumacher, Glock and Kovalainen.

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.

Or if you wanted a more modern one then perhaps Ricciardo - Vergne, Vettel, Kvyat, Verstappen, Hulk, Ocon.

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DOLOMITE
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

How about Trulli? Teamed with Katayama, Panis, Frentzen, Button, Alonso, Ralf Schumacher, Glock and Kovalainen.

Jarno Trulli vs Heikki Kovalainen = 39 / 61
Jarno Trulli vs Fernando Alonso = 46.3 / 53.7
----------Jarno Trulli--------------------------------------
Jarno Trulli vs Ralf Schumacher = 56.7 / 43.3
Jarno Trulli vs Timo Glock = 57.1 / 42.9
Jarno Trulli vs Jenson Button = 59.8 / 40.2
Jarno Trulli vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 59.9 / 40.1
Jarno Trulli vs Olivier Panis = 63.7 / 36.3

Quite the enigma Trulli wasn't he. As fast as they come but never a contender. So not as good as Kovalainen or but better than Button?
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

And the odd thing is apart from Alonso he was pretty consistent against all his teammates.

He looked similar against Frentzen in 00 as he did in 01, same with Ralf 05-07.

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DOLOMITE
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.
Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

mikeyg123
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.
Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8
That's not what I would have expected at all. Very interesting.

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DOLOMITE
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by DOLOMITE »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.
Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8
That's not what I would have expected at all. Very interesting.
How so? Thought he was better?
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss

mikeyg123
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Re: Help please you kind Pf1ers

Post by mikeyg123 »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:42 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:29 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:41 pm

Or Herbert could be interesting if you just take the drivers he partnered full time -

Nannini, Hakkinen, Zanardi, Schumacher, Frentzen, Alesi, Barrichello, Irvine.
Johnny Herbert vs Michael Schumacher = 13.8 / 86.2
Johnny Herbert vs Heinz-Harald Frentzen = 33.6 / 66.4
Johnny Herbert vs Eddie Irvine = 35.5 / 64.5
Johnny Herbert vs Rubens Barrichello = 39.4 / 60.6
Johnny Herbert vs Jean Alesi = 43.6 / 56.4
Johnny Herbert vs Mika Häkkinen = 45.7 / 54.3
----Heres's Johnny!-----
Johnny Herbert vs Alessandro Zanardi = 72.2 / 27.8
That's not what I would have expected at all. Very interesting.
How so? Thought he was better?
Not better but I would have guessed how others stacked up completely wrong. I would have guessed at something like -

Schumacher
Barrichello
Hakkinen
Irvine
Alesi
Frentzen
Zanardi

So completely wrong.

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