Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

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TheGiantHogweed
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:24 pm
I am confused by the almost unanimous conclusion here that Max is the best qualifier on the grid. He has a total of 4 pole positions after 120 entries. He also has ten wins which says to me that that his race day performance is more than twice as good as his qualifying performance. Max did not take his first pole position till his 93rd race. Seems to be a very long time in coming. He took two poles in 2019, one in 2020 and one in 2021.

From 2016 thru 2018 Daniel Ricciardo had three pole positions in the exact same car as Max was driving. It was only AFTER Daniel left RBR that Max was able to score his first pole position in 2019. That means that Daniel found three poles in that car before Max found one.

Granted Red Bull have not had the fastest car in most of his career with the team but if he was outperforming his ride then I would have expected a few more poles to his name.
Ye i found it funny to think that until the final race weekend last year, Verstappen only had one more pole than Stroll :lol:

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Mort Canard »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:38 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:24 pm
I am confused by the almost unanimous conclusion here that Max is the best qualifier on the grid. He has a total of 4 pole positions after 120 entries. He also has ten wins which says to me that that his race day performance is more than twice as good as his qualifying performance. Max did not take his first pole position till his 93rd race. Seems to be a very long time in coming. He took two poles in 2019, one in 2020 and one in 2021.

From 2016 thru 2018 Daniel Ricciardo had three pole positions in the exact same car as Max was driving. It was only AFTER Daniel left RBR that Max was able to score his first pole position in 2019. That means that Daniel found three poles in that car before Max found one.

Granted Red Bull have not had the fastest car in most of his career with the team but if he was outperforming his ride then I would have expected a few more poles to his name.
Ye i found it funny to think that until the final race weekend last year, Verstappen only had one more pole than Stroll :lol:
:lol: Haven't noticed Stroll on too many lists!!! :nod:
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Exediron »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:24 pm
I am confused by the almost unanimous conclusion here that Max is the best qualifier on the grid. He has a total of 4 pole positions after 120 entries. He also has ten wins which says to me that that his race day performance is more than twice as good as his qualifying performance. Max did not take his first pole position till his 93rd race. Seems to be a very long time in coming. He took two poles in 2019, one in 2020 and one in 2021.

From 2016 thru 2018 Daniel Ricciardo had three pole positions in the exact same car as Max was driving. It was only AFTER Daniel left RBR that Max was able to score his first pole position in 2019. That means that Daniel found three poles in that car before Max found one.

Granted Red Bull have not had the fastest car in most of his career with the team but if he was outperforming his ride then I would have expected a few more poles to his name.
Poles are not a reliable indicator of qualifying pace when the car is usually incapable of pole.

In terms of the three you mentioned:

2016, Monaco: Verstappen crashed in Q1. His fault, certainly, but no indictment of his pace.
2018, Monaco: Verstappen crashed again, this time in practice. See above comment.
2018, Mexico: Ricciardo beat him to pole by 0.026, after Max looked generally quicker.

So two of them have nothing at all to do with his pace, and the final one is a very close defeat. Yes, Max did arguably choke that pole in Mexico, but it was by a tiny margin.

Over the course of their partnership together, Max substantially outqualified Ricciardo, who is himself one of the quickest qualifiers on the grid. I think that should matter a lot more than what happened on the three occasions the car was capable of taking pole.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:24 pm
I am confused by the almost unanimous conclusion here that Max is the best qualifier on the grid. He has a total of 4 pole positions after 120 entries. He also has ten wins which says to me that that his race day performance is more than twice as good as his qualifying performance. Max did not take his first pole position till his 93rd race. Seems to be a very long time in coming. He took two poles in 2019, one in 2020 and one in 2021.

From 2016 thru 2018 Daniel Ricciardo had three pole positions in the exact same car as Max was driving. It was only AFTER Daniel left RBR that Max was able to score his first pole position in 2019. That means that Daniel found three poles in that car before Max found one.

Granted Red Bull have not had the fastest car in most of his career with the team but if he was outperforming his ride then I would have expected a few more poles to his name.
He dropped he ball a few times against Ricciardo which I would say was unfortunate as much as anything, it was very much against form, but yes the reason that Max has not had more poles is because of an inferior car, he looks set to make a mint this year.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Schermerhorn »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:42 am
Schermerhorn wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:48 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:57 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:49 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:38 pm

Not too much to disagree with there, I might put Ricciardo nearer to Alonso and I think Russell will end up higher than his present position, Vettel's position would indicate that he's lost about 0.1s in the last couple of years, an indication of decline perhaps.
Ricciardo has proven to be a very difficult driver to place, particularly since his Renault comparisons against Hulkenberg and Ocon do not produce the same result. As well, one has to make the decision of whether to include 2016 for his comparison with Verstappen (which I have elected to exclude).

I also agree that Vettel seems in decline, and if he doesn't correct his pace against Stroll -- and especially if Sainz continues to surprise against Leclerc -- the top of that chart may be in for a slight adjustment.
Indeed if you take Ricciardo's performance against Vettel then he's on Hamilton's level, but against the Hulk and Ocon at Renault then that put's him on Alonso's level.

How did he fare against Kvyat?
Well Vettel had one of his years where he clearly wasn't comfortable with his car in 2014. In 2015, Ricciardo did get out qualified by Kvyat 7 times. He got outqualified by Vettel 8 times.

If that was a bad year for Vettel by his standards at the time, i honestly think Kvyat for his first year in the team was probably a stronger qualifier than people gave him credit for.

I myself don't think Ricciardo would really be any closer to Hamilton in qualifying than Bottas is.
I honestly think it's all about confidence. If it disappears, you can be nowhere, the rumours and bad press and you feel (mentally) the walls are closing in and the downward spiral can start.

Kvyat has been mentally buried since Russia 2016. The following race Verstappen replaces him and wins the race, and Kvyat is finally done. Stick a fork in him. No way would he rebound from that.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

I'm legit confused about how people could be confused about Verstappen having a very solid argument for being the best qualifier on the grid.


InB4 he claims more pole positions this season than Hamilton has managed in any of his F1 seasons (granted -- he'll have 23 races to do it).

Get used to Verstappen on pole with alarming frequency this year even when (if) Mercedes have an equally fast car.

Have fun with that.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Invade wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 pm
I'm legit confused about how people could be confused about Verstappen having a very solid argument for being the best qualifier on the grid.


InB4 he claims more pole positions this season than Hamilton has managed in any of his F1 seasons (granted -- he'll have 23 races to do it).

Get used to Verstappen on pole with alarming frequency this year even when (if) Mercedes have an equally fast car.

Have fun with that.
So it appears you believe that the RB is currently faster than the Merc and by that, I assume you believe he's in the quickest car on the grid. That being the case, it stands to reason that even if he does grab pole after pole with the fastest car, this doesn't make him a great qualifier, simply better than his teammate.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:36 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 pm
I'm legit confused about how people could be confused about Verstappen having a very solid argument for being the best qualifier on the grid.


InB4 he claims more pole positions this season than Hamilton has managed in any of his F1 seasons (granted -- he'll have 23 races to do it).

Get used to Verstappen on pole with alarming frequency this year even when (if) Mercedes have an equally fast car.

Have fun with that.
So it appears you believe that the RB is currently faster than the Merc and by that, I assume you believe he's in the quickest car on the grid. That being the case, it stands to reason that even if he does grab pole after pole with the fastest car, this doesn't make him a great qualifier, simply better than his teammate.
I will be very curious to see what people will say when Verstappen regularly takes pole position while Bottas regularly outqualifies Perez.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:36 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 pm
I'm legit confused about how people could be confused about Verstappen having a very solid argument for being the best qualifier on the grid.


InB4 he claims more pole positions this season than Hamilton has managed in any of his F1 seasons (granted -- he'll have 23 races to do it).

Get used to Verstappen on pole with alarming frequency this year even when (if) Mercedes have an equally fast car.

Have fun with that.
So it appears you believe that the RB is currently faster than the Merc and by that, I assume you believe he's in the quickest car on the grid. That being the case, it stands to reason that even if he does grab pole after pole with the fastest car, this doesn't make him a great qualifier, simply better than his teammate.
Well firstly, I said to expect it even if/when Mercedes equal them on pace.

And also, I'm sure there is a sentiment from some which supposes Hamilton as the best qualifier. But he's put up his best qualifying numbers also in the best cars. So I'm saying that Verstappen will beat those numbers given a similar circumstance and show that he is in that Hamilton league or better. The general point is that Verstappen has shown over recent seasons that he's a great, dominant qualifier and that when he's in the equal best or best car that he'll emphatically demonstrate that and probably better Hamilton's numbers. Other drivers have achieved great qualifying dominance in dominant cars who aren't elite qualifiers overall (take Vettel) but Verstappen will prove his case exactly because the Mercedes will often be highly competitive and Max will still regularly outdo Lewis anyway. At least that's my prediction.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Invade »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:20 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:36 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 pm
I'm legit confused about how people could be confused about Verstappen having a very solid argument for being the best qualifier on the grid.


InB4 he claims more pole positions this season than Hamilton has managed in any of his F1 seasons (granted -- he'll have 23 races to do it).

Get used to Verstappen on pole with alarming frequency this year even when (if) Mercedes have an equally fast car.

Have fun with that.
So it appears you believe that the RB is currently faster than the Merc and by that, I assume you believe he's in the quickest car on the grid. That being the case, it stands to reason that even if he does grab pole after pole with the fastest car, this doesn't make him a great qualifier, simply better than his teammate.
I will be very curious to see what people will say when Verstappen regularly takes pole position while Bottas regularly outqualifies Perez.
They will say that Verstappen (or Leclerc) is the best qualifier on the grid and that he has at least 1 tenth + change on Hamilton.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by WHoff78 »

I do have to say that I am a little surprised at how close the gap between Max and Lewis based on the models/numbers, given the differing circumstances for large portions of their time together on the grid.

I have to wonder whether there have been a reasonable number of races over the last 6/7 years where Hamilton has perhaps been able to take a little less risk on a Saturday and we’re obviously talking fine margins? I guess in some respects Max has been in a similar situation as there have been many weekends where he is pretty much guaranteed third and the chances of him finishing higher or lower are relatively low.

Either way, it would be great for everyone if the gap between Red Bull and Merc is close enough this season that the drivers go into Q3 knowing that it’s on their shoulders and not the car. Very different ball game also when they are competing against different teams, rather than the situation we’ve had where the Mercedes drivers look across the garage and can look exactly where the other guy is faster to see if they can steal pole. At the end of the day though it’s also Sunday where the points are scored so whoever comes out on top on Saturday, ultimately it will be race day that Merc and Red Bull have their eye on. The past several seasons that race has been generally been won at Merc on the Saturday, but with different teams I’m curious if that pendulum could swing. One race in and we were very close to two changes of the race leader on the Sunday, albeit at a good circuit for overtaking.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by JN23 »

WHoff78 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:17 pm
I do have to say that I am a little surprised at how close the gap between Max and Lewis based on the models/numbers, given the differing circumstances for large portions of their time together on the grid.

I have to wonder whether there have been a reasonable number of races over the last 6/7 years where Hamilton has perhaps been able to take a little less risk on a Saturday and we’re obviously talking fine margins? I guess in some respects Max has been in a similar situation as there have been many weekends where he is pretty much guaranteed third and the chances of him finishing higher or lower are relatively low.

Either way, it would be great for everyone if the gap between Red Bull and Merc is close enough this season that the drivers go into Q3 knowing that it’s on their shoulders and not the car. Very different ball game also when they are competing against different teams, rather than the situation we’ve had where the Mercedes drivers look across the garage and can look exactly where the other guy is faster to see if they can steal pole. At the end of the day though it’s also Sunday where the points are scored so whoever comes out on top on Saturday, ultimately it will be race day that Merc and Red Bull have their eye on. The past several seasons that race has been generally been won at Merc on the Saturday, but with different teams I’m curious if that pendulum could swing. One race in and we were very close to two changes of the race leader on the Sunday, albeit at a good circuit for overtaking.
Funny you should mention your thoughts on whether Hamilton has been able to take less risk in the last 6/7 years.

I was thinking back to the Hamilton/Rosberg years and I seem to remember (possibly wrongly) that they both used to mess up qualifying laps every now and again by locking up/braking too late etc, but Hamilton doesn’t seem to have done this anywhere near as much since 2017. Don’t know if this could be explained by the cars being easier to drive, him being more consistent or perhaps as you wonder that Hamilton can afford to take a little less risk due to his car advantage for most of the period.

Again, I could be misremembering the Hamilton/Rosberg era part of my thoughts, which renders the rest of my thoughts pointless.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by JN23 »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:38 pm
Mort Canard wrote:
Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:24 pm
I am confused by the almost unanimous conclusion here that Max is the best qualifier on the grid. He has a total of 4 pole positions after 120 entries. He also has ten wins which says to me that that his race day performance is more than twice as good as his qualifying performance. Max did not take his first pole position till his 93rd race. Seems to be a very long time in coming. He took two poles in 2019, one in 2020 and one in 2021.

From 2016 thru 2018 Daniel Ricciardo had three pole positions in the exact same car as Max was driving. It was only AFTER Daniel left RBR that Max was able to score his first pole position in 2019. That means that Daniel found three poles in that car before Max found one.

Granted Red Bull have not had the fastest car in most of his career with the team but if he was outperforming his ride then I would have expected a few more poles to his name.
Ye i found it funny to think that until the final race weekend last year, Verstappen only had one more pole than Stroll :lol:
To be fair up until Turkey, Verstappen had a whole two more poles than Stroll ;)

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:20 pm
Asphalt_World wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:36 pm
Invade wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 pm
I'm legit confused about how people could be confused about Verstappen having a very solid argument for being the best qualifier on the grid.


InB4 he claims more pole positions this season than Hamilton has managed in any of his F1 seasons (granted -- he'll have 23 races to do it).

Get used to Verstappen on pole with alarming frequency this year even when (if) Mercedes have an equally fast car.

Have fun with that.
So it appears you believe that the RB is currently faster than the Merc and by that, I assume you believe he's in the quickest car on the grid. That being the case, it stands to reason that even if he does grab pole after pole with the fastest car, this doesn't make him a great qualifier, simply better than his teammate.
I will be very curious to see what people will say when Verstappen regularly takes pole position while Bottas regularly outqualifies Perez.
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
When Perez tried to qualify on mediums and half of the grid out qualified him, that's your evidence?
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Asphalt_World »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
Do you think the RB is and will probably remain the quickest car this season?
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
Well, if your prediction comes true this way, people will only conclude that Perez is not up to the job.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:31 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
When Perez tried to qualify on mediums and half of the grid out qualified him, that's your evidence?
Verstappen, Perez, Hamilton, and Bottas all qualified on mediums in Q2. Perez was the only one who could not put in a lap fast enough, and despite two attempts he was still 0.378s behind Verstappen in the end.

In the hands of Perez, Red Bull looked slower than Mercedes.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:32 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
Well, if your prediction comes true this way, people will only conclude that Perez is not up to the job.
Perez is a very well-established benchmark. We know exactly how good he is.

If Verstappen trashes Perez by a (significantly) larger margin than Hamilton has over Bottas, then the inevitable conclusion will be an uncomfortable one.

That inevitable conclusion is that Verstappen > Hamilton. This is something I have believed since 2019, but it will be reinforced this season.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:32 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
Well, if your prediction comes true this way, people will only conclude that Perez is not up to the job.
Perez is a very well-established benchmark. We know exactly how good he is.

If Verstappen trashes Perez by a (significantly) larger margin than Hamilton has over Bottas, then the inevitable conclusion will be an uncomfortable one.

That inevitable conclusion is that Verstappen > Hamilton. This is something I have believed since 2019, but it will be reinforced this season.
Why would Verstappen > Hamilton be an "uncomfortable conclusion"? That is a possibility.

However and notwithstanding, if Perez keeps performing like in Bahrain (which I don't believe he will), this will not lead to this conclusion. It was obvious in the race that Perez drove one of the best cars on the grid. The inevitable conclusion is that he messed up qualifying - and that's really all.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by F1Tyrant »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 am
If Verstappen trashes Perez by a (significantly) larger margin than Hamilton has over Bottas, then the inevitable conclusion will be an uncomfortable one.
Someone is projecting hard. I have no problem with conceding that Verstappen is faster than Hamilton after he's demonstrated that consistently across this season. Not uncomfortable just the reality of one driver rising to peak performance and another driver's one lap pace plateauing or marginally regressing.
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 am
That inevitable conclusion is that Verstappen > Hamilton. This is something I have believed since 2019, but it will be reinforced this season.
A lot of a priori experience and confirmation bias mixed into this.

It can be simultaneously true that Verstappen is faster and driving the best car and Perez isn't quick enough on Saturday to trouble Bottas in a marginally quicker car.

There seems to be a desperate need to paint Verstappen as the driver making the difference in a marginally inferior car despite a marginal but visible superiority at Bahrain due to drivability and engine performance of Red Bull. I feel someone may be steadying themselves for a "but Mercedes was the better car" if Hamilton somehow outqualifies Verstappen this season.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:31 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
When Perez tried to qualify on mediums and half of the grid out qualified him, that's your evidence?
Verstappen, Perez, Hamilton, and Bottas all qualified on mediums in Q2. Perez was the only one who could not put in a lap fast enough, and despite two attempts he was still 0.378s behind Verstappen in the end.

In the hands of Perez, Red Bull looked slower than Mercedes.
At that point Max was also slower than the Mercedes cars, you're very quick to jump to conclusions.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:32 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
Well, if your prediction comes true this way, people will only conclude that Perez is not up to the job.
Perez is a very well-established benchmark. We know exactly how good he is.

If Verstappen trashes Perez by a (significantly) larger margin than Hamilton has over Bottas, then the inevitable conclusion will be an uncomfortable one.

That inevitable conclusion is that Verstappen > Hamilton. This is something I have believed since 2019, but it will be reinforced this season.
Is that not kind of excepted that Max may be quicker than Hamilton over one lap.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:07 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:31 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
When Perez tried to qualify on mediums and half of the grid out qualified him, that's your evidence?
Verstappen, Perez, Hamilton, and Bottas all qualified on mediums in Q2. Perez was the only one who could not put in a lap fast enough, and despite two attempts he was still 0.378s behind Verstappen in the end.

In the hands of Perez, Red Bull looked slower than Mercedes.
At that point Max was also slower than the Mercedes cars, you're very quick to jump to conclusions.
Perez was 4 tenths slower than Verstappen despite doing 2 laps while Verstappen only did one. At the end of Q, Bottas was only 2 tenths slower than Hamilton.

The gaps between Verstappen and Perez were consistently bigger than the gaps between Hamilton and Bottas.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:57 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:07 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:18 am
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:31 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm

Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
When Perez tried to qualify on mediums and half of the grid out qualified him, that's your evidence?
Verstappen, Perez, Hamilton, and Bottas all qualified on mediums in Q2. Perez was the only one who could not put in a lap fast enough, and despite two attempts he was still 0.378s behind Verstappen in the end.

In the hands of Perez, Red Bull looked slower than Mercedes.
At that point Max was also slower than the Mercedes cars, you're very quick to jump to conclusions.
Perez was 4 tenths slower than Verstappen despite doing 2 laps while Verstappen only did one. At the end of Q, Bottas was only 2 tenths slower than Hamilton.

The gaps between Verstappen and Perez were consistently bigger than the gaps between Hamilton and Bottas.
Which is what we expected anyway, further to that Perez is new to the team does he not get time to bed in?
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Probably worth noting that qualifying is probably Perez's weakest area and Bottas' strongest.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:46 pm
Probably worth noting that qualifying is probably Perez's weakest area and Bottas' strongest.
Yes they have opposite strengths presumably.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by tootsie323 »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:19 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:32 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:32 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:20 pm
WHEN, you seem confident that's going to be the case.
Well it's already happened once, in Bahrain.
Well, if your prediction comes true this way, people will only conclude that Perez is not up to the job.
Perez is a very well-established benchmark. We know exactly how good he is.

If Verstappen trashes Perez by a (significantly) larger margin than Hamilton has over Bottas, then the inevitable conclusion will be an uncomfortable one.

That inevitable conclusion is that Verstappen > Hamilton. This is something I have believed since 2019, but it will be reinforced this season.
I'm not convinced that this necessarily follows. Don't get me wrong; I suspect that Verstappen - and Leclerc - are pretty mighty over one lap, based on what I've seen, but Hamilton is no slouch himself. He has put in some mega quali laps, at times when even that Merc has not demonstrated itself to be the quickest car over a single lap.
I think that the outcome will be an exciting one.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:46 pm
Probably worth noting that qualifying is probably Perez's weakest area and Bottas' strongest.
And yet the Perez-Button-Hamilton-Bottas cross comparison suggests that Bottas has, at most, a tenth on Perez over one lap. Not the most accurate method obviously, but it does suggest that Perez is not as slow as people think. He outqualified Button in 2013 despite being new to the team.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 am
However and notwithstanding, if Perez keeps performing like in Bahrain (which I don't believe he will), this will not lead to this conclusion. It was obvious in the race that Perez drove one of the best cars on the grid. The inevitable conclusion is that he messed up qualifying - and that's really all.
When Gasly and Albon were being annihilated left and right, the excuse was that those two were mediocre drivers. That's despite the fact that Gasly has always looked like a promising talent at every stage of his career, apart form the first half of 2019.

I wonder what the revisionists will say when an established benchmark like Perez gets trashed. At that point, there is an inevitable conclusion that will have to be made. A conclusion that many fans may find very uncomfortable.

Max is just ludicrously fast, and yes, faster than their own favourite driver.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:12 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 am
However and notwithstanding, if Perez keeps performing like in Bahrain (which I don't believe he will), this will not lead to this conclusion. It was obvious in the race that Perez drove one of the best cars on the grid. The inevitable conclusion is that he messed up qualifying - and that's really all.
When Gasly and Albon were being annihilated left and right, the excuse was that those two were mediocre drivers. That's despite the fact that Gasly has always looked like a promising talent at every stage of his career, apart form the first half of 2019.

I wonder what the revisionists will say when an established benchmark like Perez gets trashed. At that point, there is an inevitable conclusion that will have to be made. A conclusion that many fans may find very uncomfortable.

Max is just ludicrously fast, and yes, faster than their own favourite driver.
Nah, people who want to deny Max's speed will just go back to the old line about how the car is designed for him and no one else can drive it. They did it with Alonso for years, so why would it be any different for Max?
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:12 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 am
However and notwithstanding, if Perez keeps performing like in Bahrain (which I don't believe he will), this will not lead to this conclusion. It was obvious in the race that Perez drove one of the best cars on the grid. The inevitable conclusion is that he messed up qualifying - and that's really all.
When Gasly and Albon were being annihilated left and right, the excuse was that those two were mediocre drivers. That's despite the fact that Gasly has always looked like a promising talent at every stage of his career, apart form the first half of 2019.

I wonder what the revisionists will say when an established benchmark like Perez gets trashed. At that point, there is an inevitable conclusion that will have to be made. A conclusion that many fans may find very uncomfortable.

Max is just ludicrously fast, and yes, faster than their own favourite driver.
So, since you based your claim, to which I am responding here, on Bahrain: what do you want to say? That Perez actually performed well in qualifying and that the Red Bull is actually a midfield car? Well, Perez speed in the race rather indicates that Perez was heavily underperforming in qualifying.

As for Verstappen, I really don't see your problem. The vast majority agrees that Verstappen is extremely fast.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:12 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 am
However and notwithstanding, if Perez keeps performing like in Bahrain (which I don't believe he will), this will not lead to this conclusion. It was obvious in the race that Perez drove one of the best cars on the grid. The inevitable conclusion is that he messed up qualifying - and that's really all.
When Gasly and Albon were being annihilated left and right, the excuse was that those two were mediocre drivers. That's despite the fact that Gasly has always looked like a promising talent at every stage of his career, apart form the first half of 2019.

I wonder what the revisionists will say when an established benchmark like Perez gets trashed. At that point, there is an inevitable conclusion that will have to be made. A conclusion that many fans may find very uncomfortable.

Max is just ludicrously fast, and yes, faster than their own favourite driver.
As for Verstappen, I really don't see your problem. The vast majority agrees that Verstappen is extremely fast.
Everyone knows that Verstappen is fast. The critical question is: how fast?

That is where Perez will give us the answers.

We will just have to wait for this season to unfold to see how Perez and Bottas compare to their respective teammates. I can’t wait.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by KingVoid »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:55 am
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:12 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 am
However and notwithstanding, if Perez keeps performing like in Bahrain (which I don't believe he will), this will not lead to this conclusion. It was obvious in the race that Perez drove one of the best cars on the grid. The inevitable conclusion is that he messed up qualifying - and that's really all.
When Gasly and Albon were being annihilated left and right, the excuse was that those two were mediocre drivers. That's despite the fact that Gasly has always looked like a promising talent at every stage of his career, apart form the first half of 2019.

I wonder what the revisionists will say when an established benchmark like Perez gets trashed. At that point, there is an inevitable conclusion that will have to be made. A conclusion that many fans may find very uncomfortable.

Max is just ludicrously fast, and yes, faster than their own favourite driver.
Nah, people who want to deny Max's speed will just go back to the old line about how the car is designed for him and no one else can drive it. They did it with Alonso for years, so why would it be any different for Max?
Alonso trashing Kimi by a bigger margin than he trashed Massa was quite amusing, it left a lot of people with an egg in their face.

2014 was low-key one of the most important seasons ever because it answered so many critical questions. Many of our opinions on the quality of different cars and drivers are highly influenced by what we saw happen to Vettel and Raikkonen in 2014.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Asphalt_World »

Nobody ever seems to allow for a drivers current form. In pretty much all other sports, competitors have good and bad years and these are taken into account.

This never seems to happen in F1. Just because driver A beat driver B a certain number of years ago and now driver B is beating driver C, it doesn't necessarily mean you can simply rank the drivers.

Add the fact that in F1 the cars are different each year and different car characteristics can make a big difference, the whole going back over past season results is a little grey.
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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:30 am
Nobody ever seems to allow for a drivers current form. In pretty much all other sports, competitors have good and bad years and these are taken into account.

This never seems to happen in F1. Just because driver A beat driver B a certain number of years ago and now driver B is beating driver C, it doesn't necessarily mean you can simply rank the drivers.

Add the fact that in F1 the cars are different each year and different car characteristics can make a big difference, the whole going back over past season results is a little grey.
Simply put, we don't have the luxury of being able to account for form. It's almost impossibly hard to try and deduce how good a driver is without accounting for it. In other sports you see competitors compete against one another on equal terms very regularly. You can build up a picture of how good they are in relation to one an other much more quickly and as such a drop in from will become clear more quickly and clearly as well.

In F1 on the other hand in some cases we will never see two drivers in directly comparable circumstances (as teammates). It takes every scrap of evidence produced for us to work out the general pecking order without trying to figure out short term form peaks and troughs as well.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by F1Tyrant »

Asphalt_World wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:30 am
This never seems to happen in F1. Just because driver A beat driver B a certain number of years ago and now driver B is beating driver C, it doesn't necessarily mean you can simply rank the drivers.
Take your nuance elsewhere! It isn't welcome here! :twisted:

In all seriousness, there is definite merit to this argument and form is a factor in all sports. There are several clear examples of this in F1:
  1. Post-McLaren Raikkonen clearly failed to reach the heights of his 2003-2006 form.
  2. Alonso was clearly in terrible form in 2007 and that contributed to Hamilton matching him.
  3. Hamilton had obviously patchy form in 2011 and 2013.
  4. Vettel's form dipped massively in 2014 and from 2nd half of 2018-present.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by JN23 »

F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:18 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:30 am
This never seems to happen in F1. Just because driver A beat driver B a certain number of years ago and now driver B is beating driver C, it doesn't necessarily mean you can simply rank the drivers.
Take your nuance elsewhere! It isn't welcome here! :twisted:

In all seriousness, there is definite merit to this argument and form is a factor in all sports. There are several clear examples of this in F1:
  1. Post-McLaren Raikkonen clearly failed to reach the heights of his 2003-2006 form.
  2. Alonso was clearly in terrible form in 2007 and that contributed to Hamilton matching him.
  3. Hamilton had obviously patchy form in 2011 and 2013.
  4. Vettel's form dipped massively in 2014 and from 2nd half of 2018-present.
Question on the Raikkonen-McLaren era - is there anything to suggest he was actually better at that point and he failed to reach that level 2007 onwards? Is it possible he just looked a lot better 2003-06 because he was in a car that was actually quicker than generally agreed on at the time? I know some people put it down to the Michelin tyres suiting him back then more than tyres since.

I agree with the general point of AW's post though. The biggest weakness of A > B > C is that it can't account for dips/peaks in form, which is especially a problem when there is only limited data to go off in some cases.

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Re: Who are the BEST QUALIFIERS on the grid?

Post by Covalent »

JN23 wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:32 am
F1Tyrant wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 11:18 am
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:30 am
This never seems to happen in F1. Just because driver A beat driver B a certain number of years ago and now driver B is beating driver C, it doesn't necessarily mean you can simply rank the drivers.
Take your nuance elsewhere! It isn't welcome here! :twisted:

In all seriousness, there is definite merit to this argument and form is a factor in all sports. There are several clear examples of this in F1:
  1. Post-McLaren Raikkonen clearly failed to reach the heights of his 2003-2006 form.
  2. Alonso was clearly in terrible form in 2007 and that contributed to Hamilton matching him.
  3. Hamilton had obviously patchy form in 2011 and 2013.
  4. Vettel's form dipped massively in 2014 and from 2nd half of 2018-present.
Question on the Raikkonen-McLaren era - is there anything to suggest he was actually better at that point and he failed to reach that level 2007 onwards? Is it possible he just looked a lot better 2003-06 because he was in a car that was actually quicker than generally agreed on at the time? I know some people put it down to the Michelin tyres suiting him back then more than tyres since.

I agree with the general point of AW's post though. The biggest weakness of A > B > C is that it can't account for dips/peaks in form, which is especially a problem when there is only limited data to go off in some cases.
Kimi's been around long enough to likely have several a-b-c's, maybe someone has the data to see if by comparing the various different abc's, there is a pattern of discontinuity around 2007.

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