Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

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Rockie
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 am
Max Verstappen is the same age Hamilton was at the end of his first season. That means he has (Hamilton - 1) years at least left in his career, and Hamilton had established his legacy long before this season.

Max's is still younger than most of the drivers with a legacy were before they started in Formula 1. The idea that anything is ruined for him is among the biggest crazy talk I have ever seen on this forum.
If you spend an entire decade driving in Formula 1 without winning a single title (which is what will happen to Max), that’s a huge dent on your legacy. Doesn’t matter how young or old you are.
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
Wont matter as it will be because of the car.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by j man »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 am
Max Verstappen is the same age Hamilton was at the end of his first season. That means he has (Hamilton - 1) years at least left in his career, and Hamilton had established his legacy long before this season.

Max's is still younger than most of the drivers with a legacy were before they started in Formula 1. The idea that anything is ruined for him is among the biggest crazy talk I have ever seen on this forum.
:thumbup:

These comparisons of what Max has achieved after x years in the sport relative to the other drivers are not really valid. Max effectively skipped the junior formulae and did all of his learning and development in the public eye in Formula 1 instead, something I still consider a mistake despite his success thus far. All racing drivers will have multiple silly crashes in their teens while they are still learning and maturing, the difference is that most of them are racing in series with a very small audience at that age while Max went through that process with millions of eyes on him and a microphone constantly stuffed in his face.

Age comparisons are much more appropriate as it indicates general motor racing experience, and so from this perspective I agree that is fair to say that Max now is at the equivalent point that Lewis was at after his first season.

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Exediron
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:39 pm
Others have questioned Rockie's conclusion that Max would have won 3 WDCs if he had come into the sport in a title-capable car, but it seems like you're questioning the basic premise that you can't compare Max and Lewis' early success because one driver came into the sport in a title-capable car and pretty much never left one, whereas the other has yet to have such a car.
On the highlighted part, let me get something straight are you saying if Verstappen had started in F1 in the Mercedes in the last 7 years he wont have atleast 3 titles to date?

Also for the person you are replying to he does not get logic.
I'm not saying that; personally, I think if Max had debuted in 2015 in the Mercedes he would very likely have lost that title and the next one to Rosberg and then gone on a winning streak against Bottas (if we keep the teammates the same). That's assuming Vettel would still have imploded against Max, obviously: it's possible that faced with someone who isn't Hamilton he would have driven better, and delivered the title for Ferrari in 2017 or 2018.

But what I was actually saying is that I think your estimate of 3 WDCs is the only part being questioned by reasonable people, not the basic idea that Max hasn't had a title-winning car yet and as such you can't knock him for failing to win a title.
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KingVoid
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by KingVoid »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 am
Max Verstappen is the same age Hamilton was at the end of his first season. That means he has (Hamilton - 1) years at least left in his career, and Hamilton had established his legacy long before this season.

Max's is still younger than most of the drivers with a legacy were before they started in Formula 1. The idea that anything is ruined for him is among the biggest crazy talk I have ever seen on this forum.
If you spend an entire decade driving in Formula 1 without winning a single title (which is what will happen to Max), that’s a huge dent on your legacy. Doesn’t matter how young or old you are.
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
His statistics like win % will be completely ruined though. He won’t get anywhere near Hamilton’s 36%, even the 25% of Senna and Prost looks impossible by now.

I know you think that this doesn’t matter, but to the average fan it does.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 am
Max Verstappen is the same age Hamilton was at the end of his first season. That means he has (Hamilton - 1) years at least left in his career, and Hamilton had established his legacy long before this season.

Max's is still younger than most of the drivers with a legacy were before they started in Formula 1. The idea that anything is ruined for him is among the biggest crazy talk I have ever seen on this forum.
If you spend an entire decade driving in Formula 1 without winning a single title (which is what will happen to Max), that’s a huge dent on your legacy. Doesn’t matter how young or old you are.
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
His statistics like win % will be completely ruined though. He won’t get anywhere near Hamilton’s 36%, even the 25% of Senna and Prost looks impossible by now.

I know you think that this doesn’t matter, but to the average fan it does.
Assuming Max races until he is 40, with 24 race seasons, which Liberty has said it is targetting, then he only has to win 30% of the remaining races in his career to get a 25% strike rate. That's in - as has been previously mentioned - a Lewis Hamilton career span, which Hamilton has managed at 36% strike rate, which includes his pre 2014 average.

If Max achieves the 36% strike rate Hamilton achieved for his remaining races, he'll have a win rate of 30%.

But honestly, the average F1 fan does not care about win percentages, only those who take to internet forums to argue about stuff do. And those will know the particulars of a driver's racing career, just as people know the Vettel/RBR domination harmed Hamilton's strike rate for wins, people will know that Hamilton/Merc domination harmed Max's.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by KingVoid »

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:57 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
His statistics like win % will be completely ruined though. He won’t get anywhere near Hamilton’s 36%, even the 25% of Senna and Prost looks impossible by now.

I know you think that this doesn’t matter, but to the average fan it does.
Assuming Max races until he is 40, with 24 race seasons, which Liberty has said it is targetting, then he only has to win 30% of the remaining races in his career to get a 25% strike rate. That's in - as has been previously mentioned - a Lewis Hamilton career span, which Hamilton has managed at 36% strike rate, which includes his pre 2014 average.

If Max achieves the 36% strike rate Hamilton achieved for his remaining races, he'll have a win rate of 30%.

"only" :?: :?: :?:

Mercedes dominance has truly skewed people's perception of how easy it is to rack up statistics.

Alonso has been stuck on 32 wins for over 7 years.

Ricciardo has been one of the top drivers in the sport since the beginning of the hybrid era, and he has 7 wins in 7 years to show for it.

Verstappen has competed in 116 races in his career with 9 wins to show for it.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Alienturnedhuman »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:14 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:57 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
His statistics like win % will be completely ruined though. He won’t get anywhere near Hamilton’s 36%, even the 25% of Senna and Prost looks impossible by now.

I know you think that this doesn’t matter, but to the average fan it does.
Assuming Max races until he is 40, with 24 race seasons, which Liberty has said it is targetting, then he only has to win 30% of the remaining races in his career to get a 25% strike rate. That's in - as has been previously mentioned - a Lewis Hamilton career span, which Hamilton has managed at 36% strike rate, which includes his pre 2014 average.

If Max achieves the 36% strike rate Hamilton achieved for his remaining races, he'll have a win rate of 30%.

"only" :?: :?: :?:

Mercedes dominance has truly skewed people's perception of how easy it is to rack up statistics.

Alonso has been stuck on 32 wins for over 7 years.

Ricciardo has been one of the top drivers in the sport since the beginning of the hybrid era, and he has 7 wins in 7 years to show for it.

Verstappen has competed in 116 races in his career with 9 wins to show for it.


You are the one targeting a 25% win rate for Max, to put him on the same level as Prost and Senna. The whole thread is about getting the legacy as an all time great. It shouldn't be easy, and I never said it would be easy. You are very very deliberately changing the meaning of the word by putting it in a completely different context. 'Only' is in reference to the numbers required, not to the ease within the sport it is to attain those numbers. 25% is a hard number to achieve which is why so few drivers have managed it. It's also an average over an entire career which means any interval in a driver's career will include runs both above and below it, particularly at the start of their career where they are usually in less competitive machinery.

The first 40% of Senna's career, he won 6 out of 64 races, which is 9.3% of races. Max has won 9 from 116 which is 7.8% in exactly the same ballpark. Senna went on to win 41 out for 162 races, 25.3%, in a career cut short because of his death aged 34, achieving a win rate of 35.7% for the remaining 98 races. If Senna had remained with Williams and retired at the end of the 1997 season, he would have retired with 64 wins and 28.3% win rate. If he had had a 50% win rate like Hamilton, he would have had 89 race wins and a 39.4% win rate, which given the performance Williams achieved with Hill and Villenuve, it's very likely that with Senna's skill and technical input this could have been achieved.

Of course, it takes a driver like Senna or Hamilton to achieve those numbers - and yes the equipment too. But given that Senna, Hamilton and Schumacher all ended up in cars that allowed them to have such high strike rates - Alonso is probably the only driver of their calibre that didn't - it means it is more likely than not that if Max does warrant the greatness already being bestowed upon him that he too will end up in a dominant car.

However, even if Max was to ONLY win 25% of the races remaining in his career, the target you have set for him, he would still have a 21% win rate for the entirety of his career.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 am
Max Verstappen is the same age Hamilton was at the end of his first season. That means he has (Hamilton - 1) years at least left in his career, and Hamilton had established his legacy long before this season.

Max's is still younger than most of the drivers with a legacy were before they started in Formula 1. The idea that anything is ruined for him is among the biggest crazy talk I have ever seen on this forum.
If you spend an entire decade driving in Formula 1 without winning a single title (which is what will happen to Max), that’s a huge dent on your legacy. Doesn’t matter how young or old you are.
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
His statistics like win % will be completely ruined though. He won’t get anywhere near Hamilton’s 36%, even the 25% of Senna and Prost looks impossible by now.

I know you think that this doesn’t matter, but to the average fan it does.
Do you honestly think the average fan has any idea what win percentage Hamilton, Prost or Senna are on?

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:52 am
Do you honestly think the average fan has any idea what win percentage Hamilton, Prost or Senna are on?
The average fan -- and a fair new more dedicated ones -- will look to see if he has a WDC next to his name. That's what defines a legacy or greatness to them, not percentages.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:52 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:39 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:02 pm
Rockie wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:35 pm


Even explaining the logic to you, you still can't get it.
Others have also questioned your posts.
Others have questioned Rockie's conclusion that Max would have won 3 WDCs if he had come into the sport in a title-capable car, but it seems like you're questioning the basic premise that you can't compare Max and Lewis' early success because one driver came into the sport in a title-capable car and pretty much never left one, whereas the other has yet to have such a car.

The least competitive car Hamilton ever drove was probably in 2009, which was a genuine non-challenger (although in the second half it was stronger than anything Max has driven). Other than that, 2013 was the only car he drove that was probably not capable of challenging for the WDC. In my opinion, Hamilton on peak form could have challenged with the 2011 McLaren.

Max, in contrast, has never had a car that was capable of challenging for the WDC in any way. The most competitive car Max has had was probably in 2016, or possibly this year - in both cases, a distant second-best.

Note that if you remove Hamilton from the picture and assume two copies of Bottas driving for Mercedes, Max would gain 0 WDCs from it. So it's not just because Hamilton is out-driving him.
I just find it ridiculous with the comparisons he makes, put Verstappen in the 2007 McLaren and then let's see how his career pans out, of course that's totally impractical, so instead put him in the 2014 Mercedes, a better car than what Hamilton started his career in, even that's impractical a 15 year old kid in karts going straight into a dominant F1 car.

Let's not forget that Verstappen turned down Mercedes, so history actually tells us he turned down the chance to walk into a dominant car, F1 is often defined by career choices that's the reality rather than what if scenarios.
Not even my 6 year old would interpret it like this, the logic is simple as Max getting into a title challenging car on his debut in the sport like Lewis did.

Title winning car when Lewis made his debut Ferrari or Mclaren.

Title winning car when Max made his debut Mercedes.

It's not rocket science.
You're comparison is to start Verstappen's career in a better car than Hamilton started his F1 career in and then look to make some kind of comparison, it took Hamilton 8 years to get in a dominant car, Verstappen has been in f1 for 6 years so in direct comparison he's not even earned the right yet to be in a dominant car.

I'm sure Hamilton could have won more titles if we could put him in certain cars like the 2009-2013 Red Bulls.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:52 am
KingVoid wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 3:40 am
mikeyg123 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:47 pm
KingVoid wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:59 am
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:40 am
Max Verstappen is the same age Hamilton was at the end of his first season. That means he has (Hamilton - 1) years at least left in his career, and Hamilton had established his legacy long before this season.

Max's is still younger than most of the drivers with a legacy were before they started in Formula 1. The idea that anything is ruined for him is among the biggest crazy talk I have ever seen on this forum.
If you spend an entire decade driving in Formula 1 without winning a single title (which is what will happen to Max), that’s a huge dent on your legacy. Doesn’t matter how young or old you are.
I don't know how you can be convinced that will happen to Max but even if it does I don't agree.

I think this period of F1 will be known as an aberration. A complete deviation from the norm. If he wins 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 titles between 2025 and 2035 the fact that he didn't win until his 11th season won't affect his legacy one jot. People will understand he didn't have the car to challenge.
His statistics like win % will be completely ruined though. He won’t get anywhere near Hamilton’s 36%, even the 25% of Senna and Prost looks impossible by now.

I know you think that this doesn’t matter, but to the average fan it does.
Do you honestly think the average fan has any idea what win percentage Hamilton, Prost or Senna are on?
I consider myself to be a bit of an anorak but like you say I have no interest in % stats, the two biggies are titles and wins, Verstappen has plenty of time to amass both.
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Rockie
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

Exediron wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 9:11 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:42 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:39 pm
Others have questioned Rockie's conclusion that Max would have won 3 WDCs if he had come into the sport in a title-capable car, but it seems like you're questioning the basic premise that you can't compare Max and Lewis' early success because one driver came into the sport in a title-capable car and pretty much never left one, whereas the other has yet to have such a car.
On the highlighted part, let me get something straight are you saying if Verstappen had started in F1 in the Mercedes in the last 7 years he wont have atleast 3 titles to date?

Also for the person you are replying to he does not get logic.
I'm not saying that; personally, I think if Max had debuted in 2015 in the Mercedes he would very likely have lost that title and the next one to Rosberg and then gone on a winning streak against Bottas (if we keep the teammates the same). That's assuming Vettel would still have imploded against Max, obviously: it's possible that faced with someone who isn't Hamilton he would have driven better, and delivered the title for Ferrari in 2017 or 2018.

But what I was actually saying is that I think your estimate of 3 WDCs is the only part being questioned by reasonable people, not the basic idea that Max hasn't had a title-winning car yet and as such you can't knock him for failing to win a title.
Oh maybe you don't get what I was saying not slagging off Max just saying for folks who want to compare both that the only reason I feel Max hasn't won is basically because he's not in a championship winning car, and I believe if he was in the Merc irrespective of the opposition in the other car he'll have 3 titles.
When you have a predictable car you can adjust your impatience and weakness.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rockie »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:25 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:52 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:39 pm
pokerman wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:02 pm

Others have also questioned your posts.
Others have questioned Rockie's conclusion that Max would have won 3 WDCs if he had come into the sport in a title-capable car, but it seems like you're questioning the basic premise that you can't compare Max and Lewis' early success because one driver came into the sport in a title-capable car and pretty much never left one, whereas the other has yet to have such a car.

The least competitive car Hamilton ever drove was probably in 2009, which was a genuine non-challenger (although in the second half it was stronger than anything Max has driven). Other than that, 2013 was the only car he drove that was probably not capable of challenging for the WDC. In my opinion, Hamilton on peak form could have challenged with the 2011 McLaren.

Max, in contrast, has never had a car that was capable of challenging for the WDC in any way. The most competitive car Max has had was probably in 2016, or possibly this year - in both cases, a distant second-best.

Note that if you remove Hamilton from the picture and assume two copies of Bottas driving for Mercedes, Max would gain 0 WDCs from it. So it's not just because Hamilton is out-driving him.
I just find it ridiculous with the comparisons he makes, put Verstappen in the 2007 McLaren and then let's see how his career pans out, of course that's totally impractical, so instead put him in the 2014 Mercedes, a better car than what Hamilton started his career in, even that's impractical a 15 year old kid in karts going straight into a dominant F1 car.

Let's not forget that Verstappen turned down Mercedes, so history actually tells us he turned down the chance to walk into a dominant car, F1 is often defined by career choices that's the reality rather than what if scenarios.
Not even my 6 year old would interpret it like this, the logic is simple as Max getting into a title challenging car on his debut in the sport like Lewis did.

Title winning car when Lewis made his debut Ferrari or Mclaren.

Title winning car when Max made his debut Mercedes.

It's not rocket science.
You're comparison is to start Verstappen's career in a better car than Hamilton started his F1 career in and then look to make some kind of comparison, it took Hamilton 8 years to get in a dominant car, Verstappen has been in f1 for 6 years so in direct comparison he's not even earned the right yet to be in a dominant car.

I'm sure Hamilton could have won more titles if we could put him in certain cars like the 2009-2013 Red Bulls.
Lol I GIVE UP!!!!

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Harpo »

So, concerning Verstappen's legacy, we'll have to wait a good ten years, at least.
For now the questions that matter are : "Is Hamilton ruining Mercedes legacy?" and its corollary "Is Mercedes ruining Hamilton's legacy?"
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Rockie wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 4:46 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:25 pm
Rockie wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:52 pm
pokerman wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:05 pm
Exediron wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:39 pm


Others have questioned Rockie's conclusion that Max would have won 3 WDCs if he had come into the sport in a title-capable car, but it seems like you're questioning the basic premise that you can't compare Max and Lewis' early success because one driver came into the sport in a title-capable car and pretty much never left one, whereas the other has yet to have such a car.

The least competitive car Hamilton ever drove was probably in 2009, which was a genuine non-challenger (although in the second half it was stronger than anything Max has driven). Other than that, 2013 was the only car he drove that was probably not capable of challenging for the WDC. In my opinion, Hamilton on peak form could have challenged with the 2011 McLaren.

Max, in contrast, has never had a car that was capable of challenging for the WDC in any way. The most competitive car Max has had was probably in 2016, or possibly this year - in both cases, a distant second-best.

Note that if you remove Hamilton from the picture and assume two copies of Bottas driving for Mercedes, Max would gain 0 WDCs from it. So it's not just because Hamilton is out-driving him.
I just find it ridiculous with the comparisons he makes, put Verstappen in the 2007 McLaren and then let's see how his career pans out, of course that's totally impractical, so instead put him in the 2014 Mercedes, a better car than what Hamilton started his career in, even that's impractical a 15 year old kid in karts going straight into a dominant F1 car.

Let's not forget that Verstappen turned down Mercedes, so history actually tells us he turned down the chance to walk into a dominant car, F1 is often defined by career choices that's the reality rather than what if scenarios.
Not even my 6 year old would interpret it like this, the logic is simple as Max getting into a title challenging car on his debut in the sport like Lewis did.

Title winning car when Lewis made his debut Ferrari or Mclaren.

Title winning car when Max made his debut Mercedes.

It's not rocket science.
You're comparison is to start Verstappen's career in a better car than Hamilton started his F1 career in and then look to make some kind of comparison, it took Hamilton 8 years to get in a dominant car, Verstappen has been in f1 for 6 years so in direct comparison he's not even earned the right yet to be in a dominant car.

I'm sure Hamilton could have won more titles if we could put him in certain cars like the 2009-2013 Red Bulls.
Lol I GIVE UP!!!!
I hope so with the what ifs, I see your latest post is slightly different to your opening post with the glaring mistake, your last post would have been a better starting point, your original post being.
Rockie wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:03 pm
The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Harpo wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:35 pm
So, concerning Verstappen's legacy, we'll have to wait a good ten years, at least.
For now the questions that matter are : "Is Hamilton ruining Mercedes legacy?" and its corollary "Is Mercedes ruining Hamilton's legacy?"
Hardly unless Ferrari also ruined Schumacher's legacy.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:52 pm
I hope so with the what ifs, I see your latest post is slightly different to your opening post with the glaring mistake, your last post would have been a better starting point, your original post being.

"The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now."
I have to say I think you're just picking on the phonetics here, attacking some poorly worded elements of Rockie's post to avoid arguing the actual statement being made.

There is a huge, objective difference between how Hamilton and Verstappen started their F1 careers, and it provides a very compelling argument that Verstappen's legacy isn't being defined in this era - because he hasn't yet had any chance to achieve more than what he has achieved.

As for the part about Verstappen starting in a Mercedes, which seems to be throwing you off, I'll give my own attempt at explaining it. I think I get where Rockie is coming from.

In Hamilton's first six years in the sport (2007-2012), anywhere from 2 (2007, 2008, 2009, 2011) to 4 (2012) cars were probably fast enough to win the championship with the right combination of driver and luck. Out of those six years, Hamilton was in one of those title-capable cars for five of them, excepting only 2009.

In Verstappen's first six years in the sport (2015-2020), either one (2015, 2016, maybe 2019, 2020) or two (2017, 2018, maybe 2019) cars have been fast enough to win the championship, even with the right driver. And here's the difference: Verstappen has been in none of them. Not a single one.

Were Hamilton's title-capable cars from 2007-2012 anywhere near as quick as the current Mercedes cars? No, of course not. That's why he didn't win every opportunity he got. But the point is that he had opportunities. Prior to 2014, it was a legitimate criticism of Hamilton that he was only a 1-time champion despite having spent essentially his whole career in winning machinery.

Max has driven in an era that's quite different. In the current F1 era, you're either in the dominant car or you're out in the cold. When intelligent, informed F1 fans look back on the start of Max's career, they're not going to underrate him for failing to win a title in his first six years. They'll lament the fact that he was never given an opportunity.

Max's legacy as a champion (if he becomes one in the future) will start to be defined when he has his first chance at a championship, and not before.
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mikeyg123
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:52 pm
I hope so with the what ifs, I see your latest post is slightly different to your opening post with the glaring mistake, your last post would have been a better starting point, your original post being.

"The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now."
I have to say I think you're just picking on the phonetics here, attacking some poorly worded elements of Rockie's post to avoid arguing the actual statement being made.

There is a huge, objective difference between how Hamilton and Verstappen started their F1 careers, and it provides a very compelling argument that Verstappen's legacy isn't being defined in this era - because he hasn't yet had any chance to achieve more than what he has achieved.

As for the part about Verstappen starting in a Mercedes, which seems to be throwing you off, I'll give my own attempt at explaining it. I think I get where Rockie is coming from.

In Hamilton's first six years in the sport (2007-2012), anywhere from 2 (2007, 2008, 2009, 2011) to 4 (2012) cars were probably fast enough to win the championship with the right combination of driver and luck. Out of those six years, Hamilton was in one of those title-capable cars for five of them, excepting only 2009.

In Verstappen's first six years in the sport (2015-2020), either one (2015, 2016, maybe 2019, 2020) or two (2017, 2018, maybe 2019) cars have been fast enough to win the championship, even with the right driver. And here's the difference: Verstappen has been in none of them. Not a single one.

Were Hamilton's title-capable cars from 2007-2012 anywhere near as quick as the current Mercedes cars? No, of course not. That's why he didn't win every opportunity he got. But the point is that he had opportunities. Prior to 2014, it was a legitimate criticism of Hamilton that he was only a 1-time champion despite having spent essentially his whole career in winning machinery.

Max has driven in an era that's quite different. In the current F1 era, you're either in the dominant car or you're out in the cold. When intelligent, informed F1 fans look back on the start of Max's career, they're not going to underrate him for failing to win a title in his first six years. They'll lament the fact that he was never given an opportunity.

Max's legacy as a champion (if he becomes one in the future) will start to be defined when he has his first chance at a championship, and not before.
100% this.

This is the least competitive era of F1 ever. If Verstappen goes on to win multiple WDC's then his legacy will reflect those WDC's not the fact that he couldn't win in an era where he had the opportunity to win.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Option or Prime »

All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.

Siao7
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:15 am
Exediron wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:52 pm
I hope so with the what ifs, I see your latest post is slightly different to your opening post with the glaring mistake, your last post would have been a better starting point, your original post being.

"The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now."
I have to say I think you're just picking on the phonetics here, attacking some poorly worded elements of Rockie's post to avoid arguing the actual statement being made.

There is a huge, objective difference between how Hamilton and Verstappen started their F1 careers, and it provides a very compelling argument that Verstappen's legacy isn't being defined in this era - because he hasn't yet had any chance to achieve more than what he has achieved.

As for the part about Verstappen starting in a Mercedes, which seems to be throwing you off, I'll give my own attempt at explaining it. I think I get where Rockie is coming from.

In Hamilton's first six years in the sport (2007-2012), anywhere from 2 (2007, 2008, 2009, 2011) to 4 (2012) cars were probably fast enough to win the championship with the right combination of driver and luck. Out of those six years, Hamilton was in one of those title-capable cars for five of them, excepting only 2009.

In Verstappen's first six years in the sport (2015-2020), either one (2015, 2016, maybe 2019, 2020) or two (2017, 2018, maybe 2019) cars have been fast enough to win the championship, even with the right driver. And here's the difference: Verstappen has been in none of them. Not a single one.

Were Hamilton's title-capable cars from 2007-2012 anywhere near as quick as the current Mercedes cars? No, of course not. That's why he didn't win every opportunity he got. But the point is that he had opportunities. Prior to 2014, it was a legitimate criticism of Hamilton that he was only a 1-time champion despite having spent essentially his whole career in winning machinery.

Max has driven in an era that's quite different. In the current F1 era, you're either in the dominant car or you're out in the cold. When intelligent, informed F1 fans look back on the start of Max's career, they're not going to underrate him for failing to win a title in his first six years. They'll lament the fact that he was never given an opportunity.

Max's legacy as a champion (if he becomes one in the future) will start to be defined when he has his first chance at a championship, and not before.
100% this.

This is the least competitive era of F1 ever. If Verstappen goes on to win multiple WDC's then his legacy will reflect those WDC's not the fact that he couldn't win in an era where he had the opportunity to win.
Of course 100% this.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Of course he's not the only talent, but I think CL is just a step behind of Max in that he is not as polished yet. Max has pretty much ironed out the major faults he had in his first couple of seasons, CL is still getting there. That's the impression I get when I watch them, I may be wrong of course as the most recent memory is CL's brain fart!

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:41 pm
pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:52 pm
I hope so with the what ifs, I see your latest post is slightly different to your opening post with the glaring mistake, your last post would have been a better starting point, your original post being.

"The difference between Hamilton and Verstappen is this where they started in the sport if Verstappen like Hamilton had come into F1 and straight into the Mercedes I have no doubt he'll have atleast 3 championships now."
I have to say I think you're just picking on the phonetics here, attacking some poorly worded elements of Rockie's post to avoid arguing the actual statement being made.

There is a huge, objective difference between how Hamilton and Verstappen started their F1 careers, and it provides a very compelling argument that Verstappen's legacy isn't being defined in this era - because he hasn't yet had any chance to achieve more than what he has achieved.

As for the part about Verstappen starting in a Mercedes, which seems to be throwing you off, I'll give my own attempt at explaining it. I think I get where Rockie is coming from.

In Hamilton's first six years in the sport (2007-2012), anywhere from 2 (2007, 2008, 2009, 2011) to 4 (2012) cars were probably fast enough to win the championship with the right combination of driver and luck. Out of those six years, Hamilton was in one of those title-capable cars for five of them, excepting only 2009.

In Verstappen's first six years in the sport (2015-2020), either one (2015, 2016, maybe 2019, 2020) or two (2017, 2018, maybe 2019) cars have been fast enough to win the championship, even with the right driver. And here's the difference: Verstappen has been in none of them. Not a single one.

Were Hamilton's title-capable cars from 2007-2012 anywhere near as quick as the current Mercedes cars? No, of course not. That's why he didn't win every opportunity he got. But the point is that he had opportunities. Prior to 2014, it was a legitimate criticism of Hamilton that he was only a 1-time champion despite having spent essentially his whole career in winning machinery.

Max has driven in an era that's quite different. In the current F1 era, you're either in the dominant car or you're out in the cold. When intelligent, informed F1 fans look back on the start of Max's career, they're not going to underrate him for failing to win a title in his first six years. They'll lament the fact that he was never given an opportunity.

Max's legacy as a champion (if he becomes one in the future) will start to be defined when he has his first chance at a championship, and not before.
It's hard to know what he's trying to say beyond perhaps that Verstappen is better than Hamilton when he stipulates that Verstappen would have 3 titles by now driving for Mercedes, we have to bear in mind that it wasn't until 2017 that he was starting to beat Ricciardo although he did still lose out on points, not all his own fault though.

Of course Verstappen's legacy is not being damaged, we all know he's not had a WDC capable car, however I'm not sure what you're meaning that Hamilton has always had a race winning car, Verstappen has won a race in every season since 2016.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.
In respect to Leclerc I think the 2019 Ferrari could have made a much stronger run to the title with Hamilton on board.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.
In respect to Leclerc I think the 2019 Ferrari could have made a much stronger run to the title with Hamilton on board.
It's possible although unless the Merc pairing were quite weak I think he would have struggled to make the difference in 2019. Either way I'm willing to forgive Leclerc a bit of inconsistency in his second year in F1 and first in a new team.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by KingVoid »

pokerman wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.
In respect to Leclerc I think the 2019 Ferrari could have made a much stronger run to the title with Hamilton on board.
In 2019 Ferrari was at most equal with Mercedes on qualifying pace, had vastly inferior on race pace, and had worse reliability to boot.

Unreliability arguably cost Ferrari victory in Bahrain, Russia, and arguably Germany. Hamilton enjoyed bulletproof reliability in 2019.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by mikeyg123 »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.
In respect to Leclerc I think the 2019 Ferrari could have made a much stronger run to the title with Hamilton on board.
In 2019 Ferrari was at most equal with Mercedes on qualifying pace, had vastly inferior on race pace, and had worse reliability to boot.

Unreliability arguably cost Ferrari victory in Bahrain, Russia, and arguably Germany. Hamilton enjoyed bulletproof reliability in 2019.
Bottas beat Leclerc by 62 points. Hamilton at least gets that under 50 and takes the championship to the penultimate race. You underestimate the difference a top driver makes. Both Ferrari's were closer to Bottas than Bottas was to Hamilton.

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Asphalt_World »

The utter certainty some people have in totally theoretical situations never fails to astonish me.
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Exediron »

Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

...

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
I'm not a fan of Verstappen, and I personally believe that in the fullness of time it will become clear that Leclerc was the better driver. I agree that there's a very unfortunate side to Max's personality that makes it very difficult to like him as a person, rather than simply as an exciting driver.

But this thread is about Verstappen, and that's why we're talking about him and not Leclerc...
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Paolo_Lasardi »

Siao7 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:13 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Of course he's not the only talent, but I think CL is just a step behind of Max in that he is not as polished yet. Max has pretty much ironed out the major faults he had in his first couple of seasons, CL is still getting there. That's the impression I get when I watch them, I may be wrong of course as the most recent memory is CL's brain fart!
So, you already forgot Verstappen 's several brain fades in Istanbul?
;-)

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Option or Prime »

Siao7 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:13 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Of course he's not the only talent, but I think CL is just a step behind of Max in that he is not as polished yet. Max has pretty much ironed out the major faults he had in his first couple of seasons, CL is still getting there. That's the impression I get when I watch them, I may be wrong of course as the most recent memory is CL's brain fart!
Thats part of my point, even with that brain fart, Leclerc still finished 2 places above Verstappen in an underpowered car. I agree though it was a very basic error but he was going for it!

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:14 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:13 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Of course he's not the only talent, but I think CL is just a step behind of Max in that he is not as polished yet. Max has pretty much ironed out the major faults he had in his first couple of seasons, CL is still getting there. That's the impression I get when I watch them, I may be wrong of course as the most recent memory is CL's brain fart!
So, you already forgot Verstappen 's several brain fades in Istanbul?
;-)
He had a bad start (not really a brain fade) and then spun once trying to overtake Cheko. Am I missing some other brain fades?

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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Pest44 »

Siao7 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:28 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:14 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:13 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Of course he's not the only talent, but I think CL is just a step behind of Max in that he is not as polished yet. Max has pretty much ironed out the major faults he had in his first couple of seasons, CL is still getting there. That's the impression I get when I watch them, I may be wrong of course as the most recent memory is CL's brain fart!
So, you already forgot Verstappen 's several brain fades in Istanbul?
;-)
He had a bad start (not really a brain fade) and then spun once trying to overtake Cheko. Am I missing some other brain fades?
He had another spin and also had to make one more pit stop than needed as he overcooked his tyres to early trying to make up for lost time. I’d count them as brain fades as well

Rotax Max 125
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Rotax Max 125 »

shay550 wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:29 pm
Today’s race seemed like an open goal for one of the Red Bull boys to win the race especially since there were no safety cars. It’s becoming more and more clearer with each year that rolls by that Lewis in his prime years has been on another level compared to most of his peers.

The question is with each passing year that Merc and Hamilton continue their dominance does it hurt Max Verstappen’s long term legacy in the sport? It seems like he doesn’t maximize his opportunities on many occasions - none clearer than today.

Even if Max starts challenging Lewis next season or the following it won’t ever be treated as a fair comparison as there will always be an excuse of Hamilton’s best years being behind him. So even when he eventually overcomes him in a couple years it will be seen more of a passing of the torch versus Max beating Hamilton in his prime.
I guess that's similar to what we have seen in the past. Was Michael Schumacher past his prime when Fernando Alonso de-throned him in 2005? I believe he was. Was senna past his prime when Schumacher started to challenge him? Its possible.

Lewis is at his best and still improving in my opinion and that is why he is still continuing to lead the way. Max's time will come. I feel his all out attack approach is not as intense as it once was but it does still catch him out from time to time and when it does Lewis is always there to take advantage of that.

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Frenk Biber
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Frenk Biber »

I raised this question to my mate who is a Verstappen fan just like me. Our conclusion: we would be disapointed if he would never be a world champion. However: G. Villeneuve was never a DWC and Hakkinen only twice. If he will get the same legacy as our old heroes we are happy enough, regardless of the amount of silverware. We were the happiest in 2015 and 2016 anyway (I hadn't been as drunk after Barcelona 2016 since Holland - Brazil in de World Cup 2010).

Siao7
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Pest44 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:27 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:28 am
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:14 pm
Siao7 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:13 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Of course he's not the only talent, but I think CL is just a step behind of Max in that he is not as polished yet. Max has pretty much ironed out the major faults he had in his first couple of seasons, CL is still getting there. That's the impression I get when I watch them, I may be wrong of course as the most recent memory is CL's brain fart!
So, you already forgot Verstappen 's several brain fades in Istanbul?
;-)
He had a bad start (not really a brain fade) and then spun once trying to overtake Cheko. Am I missing some other brain fades?
He had another spin and also had to make one more pit stop than needed as he overcooked his tyres to early trying to make up for lost time. I’d count them as brain fades as well
Thank you, I thought he only spun once, my bad.

Siao7
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Siao7 »

Frenk Biber wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:56 pm
I raised this question to my mate who is a Verstappen fan just like me. Our conclusion: we would be disapointed if he would never be a world champion. However: G. Villeneuve was never a DWC and Hakkinen only twice. If he will get the same legacy as our old heroes we are happy enough, regardless of the amount of silverware. We were the happiest in 2015 and 2016 anyway (I hadn't been as drunk after Barcelona 2016 since Holland - Brazil in de World Cup 2010).
I just had to watch that again, damn these vuvuzelas!

Harpo
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by Harpo »

pokerman wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 6:39 pm
Harpo wrote:
Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:35 pm
So, concerning Verstappen's legacy, we'll have to wait a good ten years, at least.
For now the questions that matter are : "Is Hamilton ruining Mercedes legacy?" and its corollary "Is Mercedes ruining Hamilton's legacy?"
Hardly unless Ferrari also ruined Schumacher's legacy.
Schumacher needed no one else to taint his own legacy...
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".

pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:50 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.
In respect to Leclerc I think the 2019 Ferrari could have made a much stronger run to the title with Hamilton on board.
It's possible although unless the Merc pairing were quite weak I think he would have struggled to make the difference in 2019. Either way I'm willing to forgive Leclerc a bit of inconsistency in his second year in F1 and first in a new team.
Yeah I fully agree you have to take into account Leclerc's inexperience, this year my statement wouldn't be quite as convincing.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
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pokerman
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Re: Is Hamilton ruining Max’s legacy?

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:02 pm
pokerman wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:37 pm
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:28 am
Option or Prime wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:01 am
All getting a bit odd now, I really think all eyes are focussed on why Verstappen isn't a WDC. Take a step back and consider this. If Ferrari had a Honda engine in it this year Verstappen would be battling Leclerc to get on the podium. Why does everyone fall over MV and ignore CL. Its as though he is the only talent driving and it will remain that way for the next 10 years.

Getting a top drive is part of becoming a WDC, LH has done it twice. MV has screwed up on chance, he now has to come up with the goods. F1 is different now, its commercial, look how well Hamilton surfs that wave even if you don't agree with the way he is doing it.

Do you really think F1 wants or needs a driver who abuses the disabled. Being quick isn't enough MV needs the full package.
Verstappen has a top drive. It just isn't enough anymore. He's unfortunate that he has entered F1 in it's least competitive era. Where he is fortunate is that he has plenty of time for that to change.

We don't know how Verstappen will drive in a championship battle. That remains the one question mark over him in terms of ability. Same for Leclerc. Right now both are doing everything they need to do in terms of showing how good they are. Max can't win the championship. All he can do is beat his team mate by as much as possible. Same for Leclerc.
In respect to Leclerc I think the 2019 Ferrari could have made a much stronger run to the title with Hamilton on board.
In 2019 Ferrari was at most equal with Mercedes on qualifying pace, had vastly inferior on race pace, and had worse reliability to boot.

Unreliability arguably cost Ferrari victory in Bahrain, Russia, and arguably Germany. Hamilton enjoyed bulletproof reliability in 2019.
Leclerc still scored podiums in Bahrain and Russia, Germany wasn't great for either Hamilton or Leclerc.
Lewis Hamilton #44

World Drivers Titles: 7 (1st)
Grand Prix Wins: 94 (1st)
Pole Positions: 97 (1st)
Podiums: 163 (1st)


PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2014: Champion

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