Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

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mcdo
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by mcdo »

Valtteri Bottas got married earlier today

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/art-2000001258305.html
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Black_Flag_11 »

mcdo wrote:Valtteri Bottas got married earlier today

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/art-2000001258305.html

And the best bit... the driver:

Image
Source: article in quote above.

How awesome would that be 8O

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Covalent »

Black_Flag_11 wrote:
mcdo wrote:Valtteri Bottas got married earlier today

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/art-2000001258305.html

And the best bit... the driver:

Image
Source: article in quote above.

How awesome would that be 8O

8O :thumbup:
Congratulations to Valtteri and Emilia!

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Invade »

We don't get a whole lot of traffic in this thread, so I'll just plonk this nice little message from Valtteri, Lewis and Toto here...


LOL I just checked - it's been more than 3 years.


Perhaps driver threads could be used a bit more often. After all, there's plenty of news to discuss and debate for all the drivers in F1.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Invade wrote:We don't get a whole lot of traffic in this thread, so I'll just plonk this nice little message from Valtteri, Lewis and Toto here...


LOL I just checked - it's been more than 3 years.


Perhaps driver threads could be used a bit more often. After all, there's plenty of news to discuss and debate for all the drivers in F1.
It is certainly different seeing this sort of video. Don't usually see them in such a relaxed environment.

I don't know so many people who film on phones do it in portrait though. For this video, they may as well have had the camera still and landscape and then we could have seen them all the whole time.



More to do with Bottas though. It is pretty good that he's managed to be 2nd in the championship in a more challenging season than the 2014 - 2016 era. Mercedes has got the best result they could have hoped for a change. Bottas really hasn't seemed to go downhill since the summer break. As somebody mentioned in another thread, Hamilton has only scored 2 more points than him since Belgium. That is a third of the season gone by since then. A pretty impressive run.

People don't need to worry that I am going to expect him to beat Hamilton, I doubt that will happen. But I do think he has improved this year. He may have made big mistakes in Germany and other weekends too, but he seems to have been off the pace a lot less often, so if he manages to work on this more, I think he will be able to be closer. And who knows, if he stays at Mercedes for some time yet, Hamilton might not be at his best any more which could give him bigger opportunities. But then i expect other teams to be catching and maybe beating them some time.

Don't know what others think, but if Bottas again performs at a similar level next year or better, I can see them retaining him again, and possibly for more than just 1 season. Hamilton and Bottas as a team just seems to work so well, and they have both made a very strong team this year. You notice the respect between them on and off track. If they fight (not often but more so this year), it is kept very clean. This was not the case with Rosberg and Hamilton. Though i can see some thinking Rosberg still would have an edge on Bottas, i think that as a driver line up, with Bottas the way he has been this year, it is a stronger team than it was back then. Hamilton and Rosberg not getting on sometimes resulted badly (Spain 2016 as an example).

I would quite easily Mercedes has been the best driver line up in what most of the time has been the strongest team this year. So I see little need to change it unless things turn for the worse next year and it is heavily down to Bottas not being good enough. I expected Leclerc to be a bit better than he has been and especially Vettel. Ferrari both as a car and a driver line up have had a lot of signs of weaknesses this year.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Invade »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:We don't get a whole lot of traffic in this thread, so I'll just plonk this nice little message from Valtteri, Lewis and Toto here...


LOL I just checked - it's been more than 3 years.


Perhaps driver threads could be used a bit more often. After all, there's plenty of news to discuss and debate for all the drivers in F1.
It is certainly different seeing this sort of video. Don't usually see them in such a relaxed environment.

I don't know so many people who film on phones do it in portrait though. For this video, they may as well have had the camera still and landscape and then we could have seen them all the whole time.



More to do with Bottas though. It is pretty good that he's managed to be 2nd in the championship in a more challenging season than the 2014 - 2016 era. Mercedes has got the best result they could have hoped for a change. Bottas really hasn't seemed to go downhill since the summer break. As somebody mentioned in another thread, Hamilton has only scored 2 more points than him since Belgium. That is a third of the season gone by since then. A pretty impressive run.

People don't need to worry that I am going to expect him to beat Hamilton, I doubt that will happen. But I do think he has improved this year. He may have made big mistakes in Germany and other weekends too, but he seems to have been off the pace a lot less often, so if he manages to work on this more, I think he will be able to be closer. And who knows, if he stays at Mercedes for some time yet, Hamilton might not be at his best any more which could give him bigger opportunities. But then i expect other teams to be catching and maybe beating them some time.

Don't know what others think, but if Bottas again performs at a similar level next year or better, I can see them retaining him again, and possibly for more than just 1 season. Hamilton and Bottas as a team just seems to work so well, and they have both made a very strong team this year. You notice the respect between them on and off track. If they fight (not often but more so this year), it is kept very clean. This was not the case with Rosberg and Hamilton. Though i can see some thinking Rosberg still would have an edge on Bottas, i think that as a driver line up, with Bottas the way he has been this year, it is a stronger team than it was back then. Hamilton and Rosberg not getting on sometimes resulted badly (Spain 2016 as an example).

I would quite easily Mercedes has been the best driver line up in what most of the time has been the strongest team this year. So I see little need to change it unless things turn for the worse next year and it is heavily down to Bottas not being good enough. I expected Leclerc to be a bit better than he has been and especially Vettel. Ferrari both as a car and a driver line up have had a lot of signs of weaknesses this year.

Ye, I'd say Mercedes have had the best driver pairing this year. Bottas to my mind has proven his worth this year not just as a super teammate but as a driver who can often bring a very high level to the table. It's clear he's made strides this year, particularly regarding his race pace - something he himself admits. It's unreasonable to now suggest Bottas will beat Hamilton in the future, but he's now much better equipped to bring the fight and he himself has said that he's very excited for next year which is going to be "interesting". He knows that in Mercedes he has a platform to win on merit and has it in his own hands to produce a Championship push.

As for the longterm future of the Bottas-Hamilton partnership, I won't be surprised to see it last quite a while longer before Lewis either retires or goes elsewhere, leading to a Bottas-Russell partnership. But these things are almost impossible to predict. Toto has said that he wants the two most competitive drivers possible, which could be read as him wanting to try and bring Max into the Mercedes fold from 2021 onwards.

All I can say is that Bottas is certainly a strong racer and has developed in his partnership with Mercedes and Lewis in an exceptionally open environment with very few secrets, which allows a driver to tap into their potential. Having Lewis as a benchmark has been useful for him, and Lewis can be very thankful to Valtteri for his contributions.

I doubt Bottas has peaked yet, and he will continue to make strides and Hamilton will continue to try and keep that edge and holding those ace cards, as he puts it. However, 2020 will be the final chapter of an era, and in 2021 in some ways every driver on the grid will start from scratch. It will be interesting to see who naturally adapts quicker to the drastically different cars we have in store for 2021. As such, 2020 might well end up being Bottas' best chance to win the WDC. He won't be favoured but it's not out of the question for it to happen, especially if Mercedes build a very dominant machine. But even if they don't and Mercedes are close to Ferrari and Red Bull, I do not doubt that Bottas can still put on the battle with the other drivers around him from the top 3 teams.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Maybe something else to keep this thread active. This is what Bottas has been up to this weekend.

Winning the rally at Paul Ricard.

https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 38/photo/1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-IfpI9 ... e=youtu.be

Hopefully another way to build his confidence for the start of next year.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Covalent »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:Maybe something else to keep this thread active. This is what Bottas has been up to this weekend.

Winning the rally at Paul Ricard.

https://twitter.com/ValtteriBottas/stat ... 38/photo/1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-IfpI9 ... e=youtu.be

Hopefully another way to build his confidence for the start of next year.
Well done Vale! :thumbup:

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Johnson »

mcdo wrote:Valtteri Bottas got married earlier today

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/art-2000001258305.html
Married and Divorced, all on the same page of his official thread

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Johnson wrote:
mcdo wrote:Valtteri Bottas got married earlier today

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/viihde/art-2000001258305.html
Married and Divorced, all on the same page of his official thread
yea and just 8 posts later too. a bit dead this thread.... At least one or two of us have tried to keep it existing in the past few weeks.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=250C66ZHhdI&t=13s

May as well post this here. This may not help Bottas this year! Will get in the way!

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by pokerman »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=250C66ZHhdI&t=13s

May as well post this here. This may not help Bottas this year! Will get in the way!
I got misinformed I was lead to believe next year would be Bottas 2.77, half man, half cyborg. :x
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

I think it's time to face the facts. Short of Hamilton hanging up his helmet, Bottas won't win a WDC. The post race interview after Mugello Bottas seemed a beaten man. What are you going to have to do to beat Lewis? He had no answer - in every sense. He was strong in Qualy, but Hamilton, unbelievably has raised his game there. So whatever Bottas Version emerges in 21 I just don't see it.

Anyone genuinely believe otherwise?
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Lord Crc »

Only way I see Bottas winning the WDC is for Hamilton to have an exceptionally poor year w.r.t. external issues (mechanical issues, getting taken out by others etc). Bottas is within reach over a single lap, similar to Rossberg, but on a normal race day Hamilon is simply better.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Invade »

Probably needs Hamilton to get Covid and for him to make a mistake which causes a race ban through penalty points and 1 additional DNF compared to himself — then he can win.

Anything can happen in sport, but the chances are exceedingly low.

At this stage I'm wondering how many drivers on the grid would be doing a better job than Bottas and if it's many, or if it's only a few and that going up against Hamilton doesn't flatter him.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Invade »


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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Zazu »

DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:23 pm
I think it's time to face the facts. Short of Hamilton hanging up his helmet, Bottas won't win a WDC. The post race interview after Mugello Bottas seemed a beaten man. What are you going to have to do to beat Lewis? He had no answer - in every sense. He was strong in Qualy, but Hamilton, unbelievably has raised his game there. So whatever Bottas Version emerges in 21 I just don't see it.

Anyone genuinely believe otherwise?

Not sure how you acted him to behave post race. He was faster than Hamilton all weekend then Ocon overtook him on the outlap in Q3 before proceeding to bring out yellow flags stopping him having a second run. He then got a good start overtaking Hamilton, maintained it after a safety car start only for the red flags to come out and force another standing start.

In qualifying there has been very little between them bar the odd race. His starts have been dreadful and its like the Rosberg era where whichever Mercedes leads after the first lap is going to win unless theres a problem like Silverstone race 2 with the tyres (where he was leading)

He's clearly not going to win the title and I dont think he is a top calibre driver like Hamilton or Verstappen but he never seems to get the rub of the green.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by pokerman »

Zazu wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:59 pm
DOLOMITE wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:23 pm
I think it's time to face the facts. Short of Hamilton hanging up his helmet, Bottas won't win a WDC. The post race interview after Mugello Bottas seemed a beaten man. What are you going to have to do to beat Lewis? He had no answer - in every sense. He was strong in Qualy, but Hamilton, unbelievably has raised his game there. So whatever Bottas Version emerges in 21 I just don't see it.

Anyone genuinely believe otherwise?

Not sure how you acted him to behave post race. He was faster than Hamilton all weekend then Ocon overtook him on the outlap in Q3 before proceeding to bring out yellow flags stopping him having a second run. He then got a good start overtaking Hamilton, maintained it after a safety car start only for the red flags to come out and force another standing start.

In qualifying there has been very little between them bar the odd race. His starts have been dreadful and its like the Rosberg era where whichever Mercedes leads after the first lap is going to win unless theres a problem like Silverstone race 2 with the tyres (where he was leading)

He's clearly not going to win the title and I dont think he is a top calibre driver like Hamilton or Verstappen but he never seems to get the rub of the green.
Hamilton was faster in Q2 and the first run in Q3, he also was faster in the race, the prizes don't get handed out in practice.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Exediron »

pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:47 pm
Hamilton was faster in Q2 and the first run in Q3, he also was faster in the race, the prizes don't get handed out in practice.
He was a really minuscule amount faster in both Q2 and Q3, and if that had held true in the race I would have agreed Bottas was robbed by circumstance. But when Hamilton wanted to open a gap to Bottas he did it with frightening ease; his race pace is on a whole different level to Bottas, and that -- not outright speed -- is why Bottas will never beat him over a season.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Invade »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:28 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:47 pm
Hamilton was faster in Q2 and the first run in Q3, he also was faster in the race, the prizes don't get handed out in practice.
He was a really minuscule amount faster in both Q2 and Q3, and if that had held true in the race I would have agreed Bottas was robbed by circumstance. But when Hamilton wanted to open a gap to Bottas he did it with frightening ease; his race pace is on a whole different level to Bottas, and that -- not outright speed -- is why Bottas will never beat him over a season.
Who else on the grid (or in recent-ish F1 history) has Hamilton beat on race pace?

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by cmax »

Bottas has had this demenour of "almost there" since he joined Mercedes. He should just accept he can't beat the guy just like Heikki and be content with collecting the occasional pole and win.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by cmax »

Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:36 pm
Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:28 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:47 pm
Hamilton was faster in Q2 and the first run in Q3, he also was faster in the race, the prizes don't get handed out in practice.
He was a really minuscule amount faster in both Q2 and Q3, and if that had held true in the race I would have agreed Bottas was robbed by circumstance. But when Hamilton wanted to open a gap to Bottas he did it with frightening ease; his race pace is on a whole different level to Bottas, and that -- not outright speed -- is why Bottas will never beat him over a season.
Who else on the grid (or in recent-ish F1 history) has Hamilton beat on race pace?
How has he been winning if he is not beating them on race pace?

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Invade »

cmax wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:47 pm
Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:36 pm
Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:28 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:47 pm
Hamilton was faster in Q2 and the first run in Q3, he also was faster in the race, the prizes don't get handed out in practice.
He was a really minuscule amount faster in both Q2 and Q3, and if that had held true in the race I would have agreed Bottas was robbed by circumstance. But when Hamilton wanted to open a gap to Bottas he did it with frightening ease; his race pace is on a whole different level to Bottas, and that -- not outright speed -- is why Bottas will never beat him over a season.
Who else on the grid (or in recent-ish F1 history) has Hamilton beat on race pace?
How has he been winning if he is not beating them on race pace?
I can see how my wording can be confusing so I'll ask again:

Who else on the grid (or in recent-ish F1 history) has better race pace than Hamilton?

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by KingVoid »

Invade wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:56 pm
I can see how my wording can be confusing so I'll ask again:

Who else on the grid (or in recent-ish F1 history) has better race pace than Hamilton?
I think that Schumacher and Alonso at their peak had every bit of the relentless race pace that Hamilton possesses.

Verstappen is still a bit of a mystery. All we know is that he was quicker than Ricciardo, who has smashed every other teammates he's ever had.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by KingVoid »

Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:54 pm
At this stage I'm wondering how many drivers on the grid would be doing a better job than Bottas and if it's many, or if it's only a few and that going up against Hamilton doesn't flatter him.
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.

Verstappen has won the same number of races in the same timespan... driving for Red Bull.

8 race wins in 71 races while driving for the best team is rather mediocre. If you look at some of the other traditional number 2 drivers, it's right in line with their return.

- Rubens won 9 races from 2000-2004 with Ferrari
- Webber won 9 races from 2009-2013 with Red Bull

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Lord Crc »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.
Looked up Nico's stats[1], the last three he was there (2014 to 2016), and in that period he had 20 race wins. Then again clearly Hamilton has stepped up a level. One thing about Hamilton now is that he seems so confident and rather relaxed, which may be a result of Bottas not pushing him as hard as Nico? Maybe just age.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosb ... ne_results

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Herb »

Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:51 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.
Looked up Nico's stats[1], the last three he was there (2014 to 2016), and in that period he had 20 race wins. Then again clearly Hamilton has stepped up a level. One thing about Hamilton now is that he seems so confident and rather relaxed, which may be a result of Bottas not pushing him as hard as Nico? Maybe just age.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosb ... ne_results
They also had a clearly dominant car in that 14-16 period. Since Bottas joined, that has not always been the case. That will skew results in Rosberg's favour.

I do think Rosberg was probably better than Bottas is, but I'm not sure he is worth more than double the wins.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Lord Crc »

Herb wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:15 am
They also had a clearly dominant car in that 14-16 period. Since Bottas joined, that has not always been the case. That will skew results in Rosberg's favour.

I do think Rosberg was probably better than Bottas is, but I'm not sure he is worth more than double the wins.
True lots of factors at play, just hadn't done the comparison before. As for dominant car, I'd say Mercedes has been matching the form it had in 2014-2016 in the current and last season, but I agree it was less dominant during 2017 and 2018 seasons.

I've got far to poor memory to be able to argue race craft between the two, but I think Nico seems to have been better at understanding himself and analyzing what he needs to do to get better and beat Hamilon.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by DOLOMITE »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
Invade wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 8:54 pm
At this stage I'm wondering how many drivers on the grid would be doing a better job than Bottas and if it's many, or if it's only a few and that going up against Hamilton doesn't flatter him.
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.

Verstappen has won the same number of races in the same timespan... driving for Red Bull.

8 race wins in 71 races while driving for the best team is rather mediocre. If you look at some of the other traditional number 2 drivers, it's right in line with their return.

- Rubens won 9 races from 2000-2004 with Ferrari
- Webber won 9 races from 2009-2013 with Red Bull
that's some interesting numbers, thanks. While you're at it.... How do they compare with the wins being racked up by the driver of the car in the same period (i.e Schu, Vettel, Hamilton)
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by TheGiantHogweed »

Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:51 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.
Looked up Nico's stats[1], the last three he was there (2014 to 2016), and in that period he had 20 race wins. Then again clearly Hamilton has stepped up a level. One thing about Hamilton now is that he seems so confident and rather relaxed, which may be a result of Bottas not pushing him as hard as Nico? Maybe just age.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosb ... ne_results
Given that we all think Rosberg is better than Bottas and that Hamilton has improved since Rosberg left - plus that Mercedes had not been as dominant since 2016, 8 wins for Bottas in that sense isn't exactly that bad compared to 20 for Rosberg.

I also don't think Bottas has had any lucky wins without any challenge from Hamilton. Other than Australia last year. But he got the lead, and likely would have kept it even without Hamilton's issues there. So I still wouldn't describe that as lucky.

I can only think of a couple of times where Bottas was unlucky to miss a fully deserved win and they were China and Russia in 2018. But if we start including some races where he had some luck earlier in the race then things turned against him, I could list a few more possible wins. Baku 2018 was pretty much certain and although others may disagree here with the next ones, Germany that year could have gone differently had he not got team orders (or ignored them) I'd also say Britain was a possibility. He had extreme luck to get into the lead, but handled the pressure from Vettel every restart perfectly until pretty much bang on the number of racing laps that his tyres had gone past their recommended life. Even hamilton said he was surprised why they pitted Bottas so early. Obviously Mercedes won't have known the future, but had they pitted Bottas a little later, I think he would have won that race.

Looking at Hamilton's reliability since Bottas has been team mates, he's had 1 DNF in 71 races. Bottas still has had a pretty good run reliability wise with only 3 retirements being down to that but with an additional one being down to bad luck and one being his fault in Germany 2019 (but them Hamilton wanted to retire there too)

If Hamilton had more retirements like he did while he was team mates with Rosberg (clearly very unlucky in 2016), Bottas likely will have taken a few more wins over these 3 years which including my other points probably would bring Bottas up to around 15 wins. Which isn't really that bad vs Rosberg given the car is closer to those teams behind. Basically, if Hamilton had a year like 2016 and Mercedes were dominant again, Bottas probably would have a good chance of beating him, but this is the only sort of situation that may let that happen unless hamilton fades.


I still don't think Bottas has a particularly good amount of wins for the team, but Hamilton being his team mate as well as improving won't help with that. Interestingly, when you look at the amount of 2nd place finishes that Rosberg had from 2014-2016, he had 22. Bottas from 2017-2019 had 19.

Bottas has had 9 3rd place finishes, Rosberg 4. Over those 3 seasons they each had against Hamilton, Rosberg scored 956 podium points while Bottas scored just over 300 less at 652. (not including fastest laps for Bottas in 2019) That doesn't look good. Rosberg got the rest of his points off the podium (68) rounding up to 1024. Bottas scored 224 points off the podium adding up to a total of 876. You do wonder if this was down to Bottas underperforming or if the car being worse that it was when Rosberg was there had anything to do with it. In the end, the points difference between them is 148. None of this is particularly representative though and at the time, you do wonder that if Bottas had been there, the team may well have collected more points as there will have been less collisions between the two.

I think that Bottas isn't quite as good as Rosberg and Hamilton has simply improved since 2016 and as Lord Crc mentioned, maybe Hamilton is more relaxed because of lack of pressure from Bottas which has possibly allowed him to perform even better.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by pokerman »

Exediron wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:28 pm
pokerman wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:47 pm
Hamilton was faster in Q2 and the first run in Q3, he also was faster in the race, the prizes don't get handed out in practice.
He was a really minuscule amount faster in both Q2 and Q3, and if that had held true in the race I would have agreed Bottas was robbed by circumstance. But when Hamilton wanted to open a gap to Bottas he did it with frightening ease; his race pace is on a whole different level to Bottas, and that -- not outright speed -- is why Bottas will never beat him over a season.
Indeed but I was answering a post that said that Bottas had been quicker all weekend and would have been on pole if not for Ocon.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by pokerman »

Herb wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:15 am
Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:51 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.
Looked up Nico's stats[1], the last three he was there (2014 to 2016), and in that period he had 20 race wins. Then again clearly Hamilton has stepped up a level. One thing about Hamilton now is that he seems so confident and rather relaxed, which may be a result of Bottas not pushing him as hard as Nico? Maybe just age.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosb ... ne_results
They also had a clearly dominant car in that 14-16 period. Since Bottas joined, that has not always been the case. That will skew results in Rosberg's favour.

I do think Rosberg was probably better than Bottas is, but I'm not sure he is worth more than double the wins.
Also off the top of my head Rosberg had 3 gifted wins in 2016 when Hamilton had to start from the back because of engine penalties/problems.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by pokerman »

Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:32 am
Herb wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:15 am
They also had a clearly dominant car in that 14-16 period. Since Bottas joined, that has not always been the case. That will skew results in Rosberg's favour.

I do think Rosberg was probably better than Bottas is, but I'm not sure he is worth more than double the wins.
True lots of factors at play, just hadn't done the comparison before. As for dominant car, I'd say Mercedes has been matching the form it had in 2014-2016 in the current and last season, but I agree it was less dominant during 2017 and 2018 seasons.

I've got far to poor memory to be able to argue race craft between the two, but I think Nico seems to have been better at understanding himself and analyzing what he needs to do to get better and beat Hamilon.
Not last season, Leclerc had the most poles afterall.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by KingVoid »

In the past, Rosberg’s record against Hamilton was always discredited because Mercedes was more dominant in his days. Well now in 2020, Mercedes have matched their dominance from 2014-2016, so now Bottas is in a very similar position to what Rosberg was then. The excuses for Bottas are running out.

Anyway, the difference between Bottas and Rosberg was that Rosberg would capitalize on Hamilton having any misfortune or making a mistake, while Bottas does not. Take the 2020 Italian GP for instance. I can guarantee you that Rosberg wins that instead of finishing 5th like Bottas.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by pokerman »

KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:29 pm
In the past, Rosberg’s record against Hamilton was always discredited because Mercedes was more dominant in his days. Well now in 2020, Mercedes have matched their dominance from 2014-2016, so now Bottas is in a very similar position to what Rosberg was then. The excuses for Bottas are running out.

Anyway, the difference between Bottas and Rosberg was that Rosberg would capitalize on Hamilton having any misfortune or making a mistake, while Bottas does not. Take the 2020 Italian GP for instance. I can guarantee you that Rosberg wins that instead of finishing 5th like Bottas.
First of all I think that Rosberg is better than Bottas, but unfortunately for Bottas he's never had the benefit of Hamilton having mechanical unreliability, the second part is a little more unsavoury and what Rosberg was prepared to do which Bottas will not do.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by F1_Ernie »

Rosberg and Bottas drove different cars, still dont think this year is as dominant as 14-16, plus Bottas is driving against a better Hamilton. Bottas would have picked up quite a few wins from reliability and better starts. Theres also 2015 when Hamilton qualified on pole 11 times out of the first 12 races against Rosberg and Rosberg put more wins on the board when the season was over early. Bottas will need what Rosberg got and that's certain things all happening in one season.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by KingVoid »

TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:35 am
Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:51 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.
Looked up Nico's stats[1], the last three he was there (2014 to 2016), and in that period he had 20 race wins. Then again clearly Hamilton has stepped up a level. One thing about Hamilton now is that he seems so confident and rather relaxed, which may be a result of Bottas not pushing him as hard as Nico? Maybe just age.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosb ... ne_results
Given that we all think Rosberg is better than Bottas and that Hamilton has improved since Rosberg left - plus that Mercedes had not been as dominant since 2016, 8 wins for Bottas in that sense isn't exactly that bad compared to 20 for Rosberg.
I don’t believe that Hamilton improved since Rosberg left. Generally speaking drivers don’t improve after the age of 32. The more likely explanation is that Bottas is not as good as Rosberg which in turn makes Hamilton look better.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by KingVoid »

F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Rosberg and Bottas drove different cars, still dont think this year is as dominant as 14-16, plus Bottas is driving against a better Hamilton. Bottas would have picked up quite a few wins from reliability and better starts. Theres also 2015 when Hamilton qualified on pole 11 times out of the first 12 races against Rosberg and Rosberg put more wins on the board when the season was over early. Bottas will need what Rosberg got and that's certain things all happening in one season.
I think it is, and the only reason why one might think not is because Verstappen is so much better than Bottas that he is able to beat him regularly even despite a clear car disadvantage.

The qualifying gaps are identical or slightly bigger than they were circa 2014-2016.

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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by Exediron »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:21 pm
F1_Ernie wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:41 pm
Rosberg and Bottas drove different cars, still dont think this year is as dominant as 14-16, plus Bottas is driving against a better Hamilton. Bottas would have picked up quite a few wins from reliability and better starts. Theres also 2015 when Hamilton qualified on pole 11 times out of the first 12 races against Rosberg and Rosberg put more wins on the board when the season was over early. Bottas will need what Rosberg got and that's certain things all happening in one season.
I think it is, and the only reason why one might think not is because Verstappen is so much better than Bottas that he is able to beat him regularly even despite a clear car disadvantage.

The qualifying gaps are identical or slightly bigger than they were circa 2014-2016.
Indeed. Mercedes' biggest challenger through 2014-2016 was Vettel; through 2019-2020 it's been Verstappen and Leclerc, and Verstappen and Leclerc are better drivers than Vettel.
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Re: Official Valtteri Bottas Thread

Post by kleefton »

KingVoid wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:19 pm
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:35 am
Lord Crc wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:51 am
KingVoid wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:15 am
The thing that gets me about Bottas is that he has 8 race wins since he joined Mercedes in 2017.
Looked up Nico's stats[1], the last three he was there (2014 to 2016), and in that period he had 20 race wins. Then again clearly Hamilton has stepped up a level. One thing about Hamilton now is that he seems so confident and rather relaxed, which may be a result of Bottas not pushing him as hard as Nico? Maybe just age.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Rosb ... ne_results
Given that we all think Rosberg is better than Bottas and that Hamilton has improved since Rosberg left - plus that Mercedes had not been as dominant since 2016, 8 wins for Bottas in that sense isn't exactly that bad compared to 20 for Rosberg.
I don’t believe that Hamilton improved since Rosberg left. Generally speaking drivers don’t improve after the age of 32. The more likely explanation is that Bottas is not as good as Rosberg which in turn makes Hamilton look better.
That is just not true. They may not become more talented, but they can get better with experience and maturity. Lewis obviously got better, he is just way more consistent now. As a fan and keen observer of Lewis i could definitely say he wasn't always applying himself fully to the job during the Rosberg rivalry. Heck, I remember a weekend at Monaco where he arrived late to he track (can't remember what year but it was in the Rosberg era) for a practice session and the reason was that he overslept. Try telling that to my boss. There are also reports out there that he just didn't spend as much time at the factory as Rosberg, just didn't always do the homework. You just don't hear that kind of stuff anymore, in fact Bottas said he was surprised how hard Lewis works.

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