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tootsie323

Fiki, I think thats why the SC stays out for one more lap in the rules, so there's time for catch up. In normal circumstances, I believe that is correct. It is what happened at the Eifel 2020 GP. The difference between that race, and the Abu Dhabi 2021 race, is that the title was still to be decide...

tootsie323

The regulations didn't explicitly cover the unlapping of a few cars, as per AD21. However, they didn't explicity forbid it and neither the stewards' protest response nor the follow up FIA report state that it did - merely stating that article 48.12 may not have been fully followed. Personally, by no...

tootsie323

Would the argument that the Clerk, RD or even marshals were delaying a restart in order to advantage, or 'gift' the title to, Hamilton sound reasonable? No because then it all went according to the rules and not imaginary procedures made up on site allowed by imaginary overriding authority. I'm inc...

tootsie323

The debate over the legality of what Masi did in releasing the safety car 'early' is one that I can see both sides of. My view is that there was a breach of the safety car procedure and I'm not convinced that the overriding authority referred to relates directly to this (yes, the stewards implied th...

tootsie323

Siao7 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 04, 2024 2:47 pm
... Tootsie mentioned in a much more eloquent way...

I've called a number of things in my time. 'Eloquent' is a bit like this topic subject - a deviation from the norm.

tootsie323

Just a couple of questions related to what hapenned but looking ahead in general... Question: why is it necessary to unlap the lapped cars during a SC period? The Safety Car is there pricipally to bunch up the field and control the pace so that marshals may complete on-track remedial work safely. La...

tootsie323

A dumpster fire, get out while you can? I quite enjoy this thread and I guess that goes for all regulars here. Otherwise, why partake? Because there has been absolutely nothing new raised in over a year. Every time I look in, I see the same points being argued by the same people, without variation ...

tootsie323

The RD by his actions decided who was going to be world champion, he has to be incredibly dense not to realise the advantage he was giving to Max Verstappen by bending the rules and allowing Verstappen to restart the race directly behind Hamilton in a car that had to be about 2 to 3 seconds faster....

tootsie323

The RD by his actions decided who was going to be world champion, he has to be incredibly dense not to realise the advantage he was giving to Max Verstappen by bending the rules and allowing Verstappen to restart the race directly behind Hamilton in a car that had to be about 2 to 3 seconds faster....

tootsie323

He could have finished under green, if there has been some kind of special permission to break the rules which seems somewhat strange, without the need to benefit just one driver. If he was happy not to allow some drivers to unlap themselves then it would have been far fairer then that then applied...

tootsie323

I havent said that. Max fell behind some lapped cars because he pit. Masi gave him a free pitstop by removing lapped cars between Max and Lewis. Why didnt he remove lapped cars only between Max and Sainz ? There are no text in the regulations about partial unlapping. Its pretty obvious Masi has man...

tootsie323

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:50 am
Final Score:
:

Verstappen appears to be missing from this ranking - shouldn't he be 4th?

tootsie323

I give you that, but see that the rules explicitly state that their goal is fairness, and there is nothing written about breaching rules or giving RD overriding authority for a racing finish. Fairness is subjective in itself. I personally didn't think it was fair but others did. Whilst there is not...

tootsie323

pSo you hold racing finish more important than fairness. Fairness would also exclude the rules to be understood as RD have overriding authority. All fine if you dont want fairness, so you say RD does whatever he wants, and orchestrated a wrestling like circus at AD 21, and you liked it, and you fin...

tootsie323

... also there is no rule that drivers cant strangle each other in the pits, so you would also see it happening as perfectly vali and within the rules... I recall that someone also mentioned no rule that means, say, Leclerc can't be awarded 10000 points. As in life, there is an element of reason th...

tootsie323

... There is no such rule, because there is no requirement for selective unlapping. Which doesn't mean removing the lapped cars between the title contenders was not allowed. ... also there is no rule that drivers cant strangle each other in the pits, so you would also see it happening as perfectly ...

tootsie323

... There is no such rule, because there is no requirement for selective unlapping. Which doesn't mean removing the lapped cars between the title contenders was not allowed. ... also there is no rule that drivers cant strangle each other in the pits, so you would also see it happening as perfectly ...

tootsie323

can you point me to the point in the regulation which enables cherry picking cars to unlap ? I think this has been provided to you so many times now by more than one poster, that doing that one more time would be an exercise in futility. Your whole argument comes down to Masi one time said X, I rea...

tootsie323

... I don't know why going back to racing is somehow a manipulation of the race result. You call it that, but nobody told Hamilton to let Verstappen by. I've been watching F1, whenever I could, since the late 1960s, and nearly all the races since 1982. I've been told hundreds of times that Hamilton...

tootsie323

That passage talks about what the Clerk can and cannot do, and it explains RD has overriding authority over his decisions. "The clerk of the course shall work in permanent consultation with the Race Director. The Race Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk o...

tootsie323

RD has no overriding authority, otherwise Masi wouldnt have said at 2020 Eifel GP, that he HAD to unlap all cars because the rule says so, and Mercedes' protest would have been thrown back just pointing at this, instead of making up new "interpretations" of the rules, and you wouldnt say 48.12 was ...

tootsie323

I'm going to throw my tuppence-worth in again: The safety car deployment itself was the primary factor in potentially changing the race outcome. Prior to that, Hamilton held a commanding lead which Verstappen was not eating into. The SC bunched the field and brought strategy into play. Merc opted f...

tootsie323

I'm going to throw my tuppence-worth in again: The safety car deployment itself was the primary factor in potentially changing the race outcome. Prior to that, Hamilton held a commanding lead which Verstappen was not eating into. The SC bunched the field and brought strategy into play. Merc opted f...

tootsie323

I'm going to throw my tuppence-worth in again: The safety car deployment itself was the primary factor in potentially changing the race outcome. Prior to that, Hamilton held a commanding lead which Verstappen was not eating into. The SC bunched the field and brought strategy into play. Merc opted fo...

tootsie323

As far as 'any' vs 'all' goes, the use of mandatory language makes a case for 'all' being the valid meaning. By stating that 'any cars that have been lapped by the leader are required to pass the cars on the lead lap' (48.12) the regulation is effectively saying that if you have been lapped you mus...

tootsie323

As far as 'any' vs 'all' goes, the use of mandatory language makes a case for 'all' being the valid meaning. By stating that 'any cars that have been lapped by the leader are required to pass the cars on the lead lap' (48.12) the regulation is effectively saying that if you have been lapped you must...

tootsie323

Apologies for this rather long-winded summary from reading through the stewards’ protest decision..! Mercedes argued that: … had [article 48.12] been complied with, Car 44 would have won the race. That I agree with. Red Bull argued that: 1. “Any” does not mean “all”. In the context of lapped cars be...

tootsie323

... lets add that even without Masi's Eifel confesssion, the rule reads that all cars must be unlapped, and there is no precedent before and after... I've been arguing the any-versus-all point on here and am re-reading 48.12 from the 2021 regulations: ... any cars that have been lapped by the leade...

tootsie323

I never said I couldn't. I just don't think I need to to prove my point. I'm the one you're accusing in a roundabout way; rather uncharacteristic of you. I would say it's more of an observation. My observation is that in any even slightly controversial issue that involves Hamilton you appear to com...

tootsie323

"any" in that context means all, and there is absolutely no "may unlap" in there. furthermore you didnt answer the question, how can the same rule mean totally opposite things ? one of the interpretations must be invalid. That's your interpretation - and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with it. Mor...

tootsie323

... here is the link. https://www.fia.com/2021-f1-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-report-world-motor-sport-council-19-march-2022 P.s. I trust no one here thinks that the race was restarted in an unsafe manner? This is the crux - as much as I did not like the manner in which the race finished, it was within a ...

tootsie323

and why is in your opinion both meaning reasonable: a) the rule means that all cars must unlap b) RD may pick whichever car to unlap both cant be true at the same time ? The rule stated that any lapped car may unlap. We've (in a broad forum member sense) had the debate over the meaning of this alre...

tootsie323

... here is the link. https://www.fia.com/2021-f1-abu-dhabi-grand-prix-report-world-motor-sport-council-19-march-2022 P.s. I trust no one here thinks that the race was restarted in an unsafe manner? This is the crux - as much as I did not like the manner in which the race finished, it was within a ...

tootsie323

I think any rule can be "interpreted" any way you want. With "letter" of the rules you obviously meant not a message encased in an envelope, but I could interpret it like that if I want right? But is it a valid interpretation? Maybe you would like to comment why did Masi interpret the rules differe...

tootsie323

Yes I read it, I just quoted it. There are 2 clear admittance of errors: The report mentions that there was a misunderstanding of the wording which has now been amended to prevent any confusion in future - this is in reference to the 'any' not meaning all argument (a wording they 'corrected' now), ...

tootsie323

The inquiry report and the official statement from the FIA President do not disagree with each other both clearly identify misunderstandings and the fact they corrected something as outlined in the report is confirmed by the FIA presidents statements as to why there were corrections to process to r...

tootsie323

Its bad faith ot argue that there is nothing to see here. We saw him dictate a procedure never before or since seen in order to engineer a faux-race, a decision he made which later saw him removed from the position of Race Director after an enquiry into the night and forced to sign an NDA. A decisi...

tootsie323

It is wonderful that people view matters as bad faith when you refer to the official (and binding) document from the Stewards and to the World Motorsport Council report, but good faith when conspiracy theories are bandied about. :? Its bad faith ot argue that there is nothing to see here. We saw hi...

tootsie323

It is wonderful that people view matters as bad faith when you refer to the official (and binding) document from the Stewards and to the World Motorsport Council report, but good faith when conspiracy theories are bandied about. :? I'm also a bit surprised by people who forget Bonnington's insight;...

tootsie323

I wonder... If we had a sort of calculation for "expected pass" like XG in football what Verstappen's "EP" would have been for that final lap. It would be very high. Max finished the final lap 2.2 seconds ahead, having started behind. Considering he weaved on the straight and went defensive, that's...

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