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KingVoid

Crazy how fast things can change. To be honest, I am still not counting out the idea of Red Bull having a disastrous 2026 engine and Verstappen retiring early (instead of moving a works team like Mercedes, Ferrari or Aston Honda). Of course, it's also possible that all these so-called retirement th...

KingVoid

Crazy how fast things can change. To be honest, I am still not counting out the idea of Red Bull having a disastrous 2026 engine and Verstappen retiring early (instead of moving a works team like Mercedes, Ferrari or Aston Honda). Of course, it's also possible that all these so-called retirement thr...

KingVoid

I have to say I'm a bit surprised by someone who professes himself to be a data person didn't have the data for the driver you support, or maybe not, you guessed it was half a second and hey presto you found the evidence to back up your guess. I’ve just done the maths and have come to the conclusio...

KingVoid

I don’t even need to do any research to know that Pokerman’s figures are false, Verstappen’s gap over Perez last year in qualifying was definitely bigger than 0.32s. If I have time I will do proper research myself. Closer to half a second would sound about right. Again perception at this point. “Ma...

KingVoid

I don’t even need to do any research to know that Pokerman’s figures are false, Verstappen’s gap over Perez last year in qualifying was definitely bigger than 0.32s. If I have time I will do proper research myself. Closer to half a second would sound about right.

KingVoid

Interesting data! We also see demonstrated here one of the limitations of teammate comparisons: Ocon was already quicker than Perez at the beginning of his career, but we now see that Ocon isn't any quicker than Gasly and potentially slower, but Gasly was significantly worse against a weaker versio...

KingVoid

I doubt Ricciardo or Sainz are that much better than Perez (Ricciardo before his disastrous McLaren stint probably was, but not by a huge margin). They would have all met the same fate if they faced Verstappen after the age of around 21/22. Verstappen is a very unique driver because he’s the only on...

KingVoid

Since we are on the topic of age discourse and how young drivers are when they begin racing, I find an interesting comparison between Jacques Villeneuve and Bruno Senna. Both began driving go karts when they were very young, like as young as Max (when they were five), both grew up in racing families...

KingVoid

Clear steps? 2017 and 2018 are very similar. Furthermore 2016 had a distinct pattern. Max was new to the car and was crushed in the first 12 races before beating Ricciardo 4-2 in the last 6 races. Everyone is running different numbers here. Pokerman has 2017 as a score of 10-6 and 2018 as a score o...

KingVoid

You can't measure how much Verstappen improved from 2016-2020 but we see there wasn't that much improvement from 2017 to 2018. There was improvement from 2017 to 2018. By 2018, 20 year old Verstappen had the same pace gap over prime Ricciardo as prime Hamilton had over prime Bottas. 15-6 in quali a...

KingVoid

As much as I disagree with you KV, god damn it man I admire your commitment to your cause. You know, my favourite driver growing up was actually Michael Schumacher. It’s said the driver who leaves the strongest impression on you is the best driver when you were a kid. For me personally, I think tha...

KingVoid

You can't measure how much Verstappen improved from 2016-2020 but we see there wasn't that much improvement from 2017 to 2018. There was improvement from 2017 to 2018. By 2018, 20 year old Verstappen had the same pace gap over prime Ricciardo as prime Hamilton had over prime Bottas. 15-6 in quali a...

KingVoid

I don't believe anyone has said that but at the time he got beat by Riccardo he was in his third season of F1 and had turned 20 during the season, you reference football Pele at 17 won the world cup with Brazil scoring 3 goals in the semi-final and 2 goals in the final. In the past it was normal fo...

KingVoid

1. Age is at least valuable as experience if not more. Gasly was 20 months older than Verstappen when they were teammates in 2019 (almost two years). He had also began his F1 career in 2017. There is little to no reason to believe why Verstappen was any closer to his peak in 2019 than Gasly was. 2....

KingVoid

I've posted my top 25 list in this very thread, Alonso, Button and Rosberg feature, none of Verstappen's teammates feature, you have to guess how Verstappen would perform against such drivers. Everyone knows that Hamilton’s teammates are stronger than Verstappen, but what the point that is being ma...

KingVoid

I would put forward Button as another example of someone who stepped up massively between 20 and 22/23/24 Rosberg and Hamilton both made their F1 debut after winning GP2, both had unlimited testing, so you’d expect both to start around the same point. But Hamilton 2007 was INFINITELY better than Ro...

KingVoid

Sebastian Vettel is another interesting case study for the whole “racing age” argument. Vettel was outqualified 4-3 by Liuzzi in 2007, even though Vettel had been testing F1 cars since 2005, in the days of unlimited testing. According to Mario Theissen, he was slower than Heidfeld and Kubica, which...

KingVoid

Sebastian Vettel is another interesting case study for the whole “racing age” argument. Vettel was outqualified 4-3 by Liuzzi in 2007, even though Vettel had been testing F1 cars since 2005, in the days of unlimited testing. According to Mario Theissen, he was slower than Heidfeld and Kubica, which ...

KingVoid

The last paragraph is irrelevant as Bottas >> Perez_2023. The entire argument that Perez isn’t good is based on his record against Verstappen, as his record against anyone else is more than respectable, including Button. It’s circular reasoning. Interestingly enough, Gasly suffered from the same fa...

KingVoid

What you are showing me is that drivers that came in at older age didn't help them when it came to F1, Montoya did actually improve from getting beat by Ralf Schumacher to looking the better driver, Vandoorne only had 2 years. Montoya should have won 3 races in 2001 to Ralf’s two. The points tally ...

KingVoid

1. Age is at least valuable as experience if not more. Gasly was 20 months older than Verstappen when they were teammates in 2019 (almost two years). He had also began his F1 career in 2017. There is little to no reason to believe why Verstappen was any closer to his peak in 2019 than Gasly was. 2....

KingVoid

The last paragraph is irrelevant as Bottas >> Perez_2023. The entire argument that Perez isn’t good is based on his record against Verstappen, as his record against anyone else is more than respectable, including Button. It’s circular reasoning. Interestingly enough, Gasly suffered from the same fa...

KingVoid

Yes... Which I'm not disputing. How much do you count that against him? I'm not making up the rules, WDC points are the master. In the context of this discussion how much does Verstappen losing to Ricciardo as a teenager hold him back in your opinion? How many spots higher would be be in your list ...

KingVoid

The last paragraph is irrelevant as Bottas >> Perez_2023. The entire argument that Perez isn’t good is based on his record against Verstappen, as his record against anyone else is more than respectable, including Button. It’s circular reasoning. Interestingly enough, Gasly suffered from the same fa...

KingVoid

There was much more to the 2021 season than the last lap in Abu Dhabi. Verstappen went toe-to-toe with the most successful F1 driver of all time and at least matched him. He didn’t match him, he outclassed him in my opinion. He lost significantly more points from bad luck even if you take AD into a...

KingVoid

Who has Verstappen beat? The reason why Verstappen’s record against his teammates is rated so highly is not because of who he beats, but because of how relentlessly he beats them. And of course, when Hamilton has Gasly level drivers as his teammates (such as Bottas), he still does not beat them wit...

KingVoid

I don't see Perez in his 2023 form beating Hamilton 5+ times to wins. That claim looks seriously out of this world to me. That's fair so I will rephrase; Lewis is guaranteed to be giving up 5+ wins to other drivers, including his teammate. Even with the utterly dominant cars guaranteed to qualify o...

KingVoid

Perez is 34 and I don’t think he’s got anything left in him at this stage, there’s a Webber 2013 vibe around Perez at the moment where everyone can feel that he’s on his last legs. Eventually, I think Verstappen will have a teammate like Leclerc, Russell or Norris. But we will have to wait for some...

KingVoid

The biggest thing that holds Hamilton back in the list is that throughout his career he has almost always conceded too many higher race finishes or higher grid starts away to his teammates. It might have taken luck for Rosberg and Russell (but not Button) to outscore him but it wasn't luck that all...

KingVoid

Ok so that does clarify it a little. So to me that indicates he's not concerned with racing Verstappen head-to-head in equal machinery but that it's more to do with doing it at RB, & that it's tough to be competitive with an entrenched top-line teammate straight out of the gates. Both are perfectly...

KingVoid

Perez is 34 and I don’t think he’s got anything left in him at this stage, there’s a Webber 2013 vibe around Perez at the moment where everyone can feel that he’s on his last legs. Eventually, I think Verstappen will have a teammate like Leclerc, Russell or Norris. But we will have to wait for some...

KingVoid

Perez is 34 and I don’t think he’s got anything left in him at this stage, there’s a Webber 2013 vibe around Perez at the moment where everyone can feel that he’s on his last legs. Eventually, I think Verstappen will have a teammate like Leclerc, Russell or Norris. But we will have to wait for some ...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none...

KingVoid

Saudi brake test not doing it for ya? Nah, I wouldn’t put it on the same tier as Jerez 1997 or Suzuka 1990. There is plausible deniability because he was asked to let another driver through. It’s closer to Liegate level in terms of sportsmanship, which is still bad, but there are levels. Newey publ...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none ...

KingVoid

The first half of 2022 remains the best version we have seen of Leclerc to date, even despite that horrific France mistake (to hit a wall on a circuit like that in the dry is horrendous). He was completely dominant over Sainz on pace and easily could have won 8 of the first 13 races. - DNFs from Spa...

KingVoid

So what are the early predictions of this rather fascinating teammate battle? In my opinion, assuming Hamilton doesn’t lose too much pace from age by 2025, this is the strongest driver lineup since 2007. I rate Leclerc half a step more talented than Button and Rosberg, who at various stages have tea...

KingVoid

My impression on this move; 1. Very brave from Hamilton to go to Leclerc’s den. 2. Leclerc extended his contract AFTER knowing that Hamilton would be signed so he doesn’t seem afraid either. 3. It is possible that Ferrari have a class of the field engine lined up for 2026, but not sure if those are ...

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