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KingVoid

The last paragraph is irrelevant as Bottas >> Perez_2023. The entire argument that Perez isn’t good is based on his record against Verstappen, as his record against anyone else is more than respectable, including Button. It’s circular reasoning. Interestingly enough, Gasly suffered from the same fa...

KingVoid

What you are showing me is that drivers that came in at older age didn't help them when it came to F1, Montoya did actually improve from getting beat by Ralf Schumacher to looking the better driver, Vandoorne only had 2 years. Montoya should have won 3 races in 2001 to Ralf’s two. The points tally ...

KingVoid

1. Age is at least valuable as experience if not more. Gasly was 20 months older than Verstappen when they were teammates in 2019 (almost two years). He had also began his F1 career in 2017. There is little to no reason to believe why Verstappen was any closer to his peak in 2019 than Gasly was. 2....

KingVoid

The last paragraph is irrelevant as Bottas >> Perez_2023. The entire argument that Perez isn’t good is based on his record against Verstappen, as his record against anyone else is more than respectable, including Button. It’s circular reasoning. Interestingly enough, Gasly suffered from the same fa...

KingVoid

Yes... Which I'm not disputing. How much do you count that against him? I'm not making up the rules, WDC points are the master. In the context of this discussion how much does Verstappen losing to Ricciardo as a teenager hold him back in your opinion? How many spots higher would be be in your list ...

KingVoid

The last paragraph is irrelevant as Bottas >> Perez_2023. The entire argument that Perez isn’t good is based on his record against Verstappen, as his record against anyone else is more than respectable, including Button. It’s circular reasoning. Interestingly enough, Gasly suffered from the same fa...

KingVoid

There was much more to the 2021 season than the last lap in Abu Dhabi. Verstappen went toe-to-toe with the most successful F1 driver of all time and at least matched him. He didn’t match him, he outclassed him in my opinion. He lost significantly more points from bad luck even if you take AD into a...

KingVoid

Who has Verstappen beat? The reason why Verstappen’s record against his teammates is rated so highly is not because of who he beats, but because of how relentlessly he beats them. And of course, when Hamilton has Gasly level drivers as his teammates (such as Bottas), he still does not beat them wit...

KingVoid

I don't see Perez in his 2023 form beating Hamilton 5+ times to wins. That claim looks seriously out of this world to me. That's fair so I will rephrase; Lewis is guaranteed to be giving up 5+ wins to other drivers, including his teammate. Even with the utterly dominant cars guaranteed to qualify o...

KingVoid

Perez is 34 and I don’t think he’s got anything left in him at this stage, there’s a Webber 2013 vibe around Perez at the moment where everyone can feel that he’s on his last legs. Eventually, I think Verstappen will have a teammate like Leclerc, Russell or Norris. But we will have to wait for some...

KingVoid

The biggest thing that holds Hamilton back in the list is that throughout his career he has almost always conceded too many higher race finishes or higher grid starts away to his teammates. It might have taken luck for Rosberg and Russell (but not Button) to outscore him but it wasn't luck that all...

KingVoid

Ok so that does clarify it a little. So to me that indicates he's not concerned with racing Verstappen head-to-head in equal machinery but that it's more to do with doing it at RB, & that it's tough to be competitive with an entrenched top-line teammate straight out of the gates. Both are perfectly...

KingVoid

Perez is 34 and I don’t think he’s got anything left in him at this stage, there’s a Webber 2013 vibe around Perez at the moment where everyone can feel that he’s on his last legs. Eventually, I think Verstappen will have a teammate like Leclerc, Russell or Norris. But we will have to wait for some...

KingVoid

Perez is 34 and I don’t think he’s got anything left in him at this stage, there’s a Webber 2013 vibe around Perez at the moment where everyone can feel that he’s on his last legs. Eventually, I think Verstappen will have a teammate like Leclerc, Russell or Norris. But we will have to wait for some ...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none...

KingVoid

Saudi brake test not doing it for ya? Nah, I wouldn’t put it on the same tier as Jerez 1997 or Suzuka 1990. There is plausible deniability because he was asked to let another driver through. It’s closer to Liegate level in terms of sportsmanship, which is still bad, but there are levels. Newey publ...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none...

KingVoid

The problem is that almost every GOAT contender has at least one serious bullet-hole in their legacy. Schumacher: Jerez 1997, no competitive teammate Senna: Suzuka 1990, probably a ban worthy action. Clark: lost to Moss when he had factory support Hamilton: lost to Button, Rosberg and Russell, none ...

KingVoid

The first half of 2022 remains the best version we have seen of Leclerc to date, even despite that horrific France mistake (to hit a wall on a circuit like that in the dry is horrendous). He was completely dominant over Sainz on pace and easily could have won 8 of the first 13 races. - DNFs from Spa...

KingVoid

So what are the early predictions of this rather fascinating teammate battle? In my opinion, assuming Hamilton doesn’t lose too much pace from age by 2025, this is the strongest driver lineup since 2007. I rate Leclerc half a step more talented than Button and Rosberg, who at various stages have tea...

KingVoid

My impression on this move; 1. Very brave from Hamilton to go to Leclerc’s den. 2. Leclerc extended his contract AFTER knowing that Hamilton would be signed so he doesn’t seem afraid either. 3. It is possible that Ferrari have a class of the field engine lined up for 2026, but not sure if those are ...

KingVoid

Massa being close to Kimi in 2007, 2008 and 2009 told Ferrari that Kimi was not the driver they thought he was and they sacked him and replaced him with Alonso, he won the title in 2007 because he had the fastest car. I think on balance the cars were pretty similar, but I understand that not everyo...

KingVoid

It's much harder now than in the Schumacher era (provided the car stays reliable). Far more safety cars and red flags, qualifying that mixes up the order, grid penalties, general measures taken to spice up racing etc. If you look at Vettel’s 9 in a row, they were also very straight forward races. N...

KingVoid

It is no coincidence that 2 of the longest winning streaks came from 2 Red Bull drivers (Vettel and now Verstappen). The dominance of this team(operations, strategy, team dynamics, aerodynamics) is even superior to any kind of dominance Verstappen could have against any driver. I have watched long ...

KingVoid

Mansell and Berger were evenly matched in qualifying. Mansell and Prost were also evenly matched in qualifying (8-8 in 1990). Senna dominated both Prost and Berger. It all adds up, Senna was just innately half a second quicker than the Prost/Mansell/Berger trio over one lap. There is no need to over...

KingVoid

There is quite a lot I could say about all your comments above but I don't think there is any merit in me arguing with someone who thinks that the 1993 seasons was a "good battle throughout the season" and uses Ayrton Senna outscoring a rookie Damon Hill by 4 points as proof of that. We are just to...

KingVoid

It's typical for me to be against alonso, but I really don't see how he can be rated 1st in 2016. He made a massive misjudgement in the first race when he hit gutierrez, then missed out on the next race due to this which should also count against him. He also spun and heavily compromised his races ...

KingVoid

1. Verstappen 2023 This one is self explanatory, it’s the most dominant season of all time by a country mile with a car that didn’t have a particularly special advantage relative to dominant cars of the past. 2. Alonso 2012 The best season in F1 history with an inferior car. His job was definitely h...

KingVoid

Out of interest Mikey:- KingVoid 1. Schumacher 34 2. Hamilton 30 3. Alonso 28 4. Verstappen 17 Mikey 1. Schumacher 34 2. Alonso 27 3. Hamilton 27 4. Verstappen 17 I guess that Schumacher might have some more points for 1992 and 1993? I have him in third for 1992 (behind Mansell and Senna, in that o...

KingVoid

tootsie323 wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 03, 2024 12:28 pm

KingVoid wrote: ↑
Wed Jan 03, 2024 5:50 am
Final Score:
:
Verstappen appears to be missing from this ranking - shouldn't he be 4th?

Please ignore my final score ranking, it’s littered with errors. I will count it again when I am more awake.

KingVoid

I have to say I'm a little surprised you've given Hamilton the win in 2020. I am feeling generous plus Max did mess up in Turkey so eh, you could make a case either way. I'm also curious as to your rationale for ranking 2010 as you have. Kubica had a great year but I'm more circumspect to you givin...

KingVoid

Final Score: 1. Michael Schumacher 9 wins, 2 silver, 3 bronze 33 points 2. Lewis Hamilton 6 wins, 4 silver, 4 bronze 30 points 3. Fernando Alonso 5 wins, 5 silver, 3 bronze 28 points 4. Sebastian Vettel 2 wins, 1 silver, 2 bronze 10 points 5. Mika Hakkinen 3 silver, 3 bronze 9 points 6. Robert Kubi...

KingVoid

I thought this would be an interesting off season topic and certainly one that can cause some debate. I will only be doing every season since 1994 as I view that as the beginning of a new era, with Prost retiring, Senna dying, and the rise of a new generation of drivers. This is entirely performance...

KingVoid

If Kubica was only a little bit better than Heidfeld, is it really fair to say that he was a better driver than the likes of Webber, or did he simply look better circumstantially? I find him very hard to judge. A Heidfeld level driver who had only 1 career win technically shouldn’t be rated that hig...

KingVoid

Percentage of winnable races won (difficulty would be assigning a value to 'winnable' races) modified by teammate quality (because losing winnable races to a fellow top driver is obviously much better than losing winnable races to a second-tier driver) The easy way of doing this would be to only lo...

KingVoid

I think that win percentage between the first and last win is in some ways, more accurate than just win percentage. It removes unfortunate drivers who spend a lot of time, either at the start or end of their careers in poor machinery. Alonso is by far the biggest victim of this, but some others like...

KingVoid

Having a 10 race minimum automatically removes silly outliers like Wallard and Vukovich.

One thing I find interesting is that Max is currently at 29.2% and Lewis is at 31.0%

At the current rate Max will almost certainly surpass Lewis very soon, unless we have a shock in the 2024 pecking order.

KingVoid

Massa.... I just don't rate Massa so perhaps I'm biased against him. His entire reputation is built on those 2.5 years with Kimi. Outside of that he was beaten by every teammate apart from a long past his best JV. That includes even a young Bottas. He doesn't have the WDC or the legacy of Kimi eith...

KingVoid

I have just realized that my previous list of top 40 drivers in the last 30 years had completely forgotten about Kovalainen, so I will do a quick redo of it. I have a few more changes to make as well, as I’ve thought about it for longer. 41. KOBAYASHI, Kamui 40. MAGNUSSEN, Kevin 39. GROSJEAN, Romain...

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