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I think the turn 2 collision was avoidable and a little different from your typical "first couple of corner" type incidents. A 5 second penalty is probably about right, given the context. However with Max.... live by the sword and all that...... Farcical how it was issued though.

Ignoring a Race Control instruction to come in to the pits with loose bodywork, the fact being underlined in it's validity by a bit flying off and hitting another car - after he had been instructed to pit.

That - for me - is effectively ignoring a black and orange flag - if I did that at a club meet, I'd be packing up my stuff for the rest of that weekend and would be in hot water - like race licence revoked hot water - honestly if Race Control has instructed him to pit and he has ignored that.... that is Black flag worthy IMO. It's ignoring a direct safety instruction.

That hit Hamilton's car with enough force to remove a mirror - 30 cm to the other direction and that could have been serious, serious consequences - and I think the question of a 10 second penalty would seem silly.

Really not been impressed with Masi and his running of Race Control.

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The only proviso I will say on this is was Leclerc actually told race control had ordered him in?

If Ferrari were told by Race Control to pit him, I don't think it matters if Ferrari didn't communicate that to him. That is Ferrari's call and between Leclerc and his team. It excuses Leclerc to a point, but doesn't make it any less serious.

I would imagine that the drivers have had plenty to say on this one behind the scenes and in the debriefs.

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Yeah I guess what I mean is that if that's the situation then you can't really blame Leclerc.

If race control are ordering someone to pit to fix damage then I think they really should be hanging the black and white flag out as well. Just for the sake of clarity.

Alonso in Malaysia (2012?) comes to mind.

Didn't pit at the end of the first lap for front wing damage, didn't even make it down the start-finish straight before the wing lodged under the car, ending his race and potentially costing him important WDC points.

Black and Orange spot, displayed with car number, for damaged car. Rarely used flag in F1 and no real need for it with constant comms - except for viewer clarity. You see it at lower levels quite often, usually with cars dropping fluids.

Leclerc would both see the sparks and feel/hear the wing dragging though.

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I've only watched the highlights and I remember a radio com with Leclerc saying that the car actually feels fine. He didn't really show to be eager to come in. Now how much do you put down to Ferrari and how much down to Charles is a different thing.

I also remember Montoya(?) dropping a mirror from his car and never been told anything. Or Kimi driving with things hanging from his car and equally being let off. And I'm not even sure if Rubens ever got punished, after throwing his steering wheel on the track that got collected by a couple of cars. And other examples. It doesn't make it right that they missed these in the past so I'm happy that they finally seem to take action on something like this

What Leclerc did was fine in relation to his car damage, he wasn't given the black and orange flag to remove any doubt.

Well that's my point. If all Charles has been told is to box for a new front wing then he's doing the right thing in saying to his team he doesn't think it's necessary. If he was told the race director has instructed him to pit as bits are going everywhere and he refused then that's a very different case.

Considering communication at Ferrari is often awful I'm inclined to give Charles the benefit of the doubt.

And perhaps driver clarity as well in this case.

I don't actually think Leclerc would have been able to see the damage and probably not the sparks either. He's not really in a position to make a safety call himself.

How many laps extra did he stay out? One? If so it is ridiculously harsh. Maybe it was two, I can't remember but either way there was no flag shown and that is the whole point of the flags.

If CL had not tried to get fastest lap and therefore had a bigger time gap back to 7th place, would the stewards have handed down a bigger time penalty to ensure that he lost at least one place as a result?

I know, I was not arguing Mikey! In fact, after the parts were off, strangely enough the car was ok to drive according to Leclerc. But we cannot know what real damage the wing has, under full load on the main straight it may detach with dire consequences. Thinking about it, it shouldn't be something that Leclerc has a saying on it.

Well if it had been 10 seconds he would have finished 11th and out of the points, just saying.

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Well did it not actually hit Hamilton's car breaking off his wing mirror and damaging his halo, apparently the halo isn't actually guaranteed to 100% protect the driver against debris so would the major accident actually be Hamilton himself getting struck by debris?

Instead of issuing Leclerc with a black and orange safety flag which requires Leclerc to pit immediately the stewards instead asked Ferrari if they would kindly pit their driver seemingly it seems reluctant to issue a Ferrari car with a flag that would remove the car from a podium position?

In this instance I would have thought that Leclerc himself is then not actually required to pit because it wouldn't be the first time a driver has ignored an instruction from the team itself, although I understand that he has now actually received a 10 second for the offense, I'm a bit behind it what has actually happened.

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Verstappen did similar to Ricciardo a year or 2 back and Verstappen got penalised, I'm sure Red Bull didn't protest themselves?

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No.

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Yeah that's what I was saying, if it's merely a team instruction then Leclerc can ignore it, I would say the stewards were negligent in not showing the black and orange flag, they didn't properly take control of the situation.

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I would disagree, ignoring your team is different than ignoring the officials.

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My view is that had Leclerc pitted after the first lap to replace his front wing, he wouldn’t have received either penalty.
1st lap, he understeered on cold tyres into Max.
However if he pitted I am sure the stewards would have deemed him dropping to the back of the order to be punishment enough.


Race control told Ferrari to pit Leclerc. Ferrari agreed did tell race control that he would pit on the 2nd lap. Right at the end of the lap the bits fell off and he stayed out. Race control got back in contact with Ferrari were they argued back and forth and finally Leclerc came in on lap 4.

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No why would they? Often it's the closest competitors or someone most likely to benefit from a penalty that do the protesting I would presume.

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The thing is that the wing itself was in tact and just the endplate was damaged and hanging on.
We've seen plenty of drivers continue on with that kind of damage and worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDz8I6rFxBw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBIWvuFyNWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql0n1DsIGsE <— That's so terrible it's pretty much the same thing. LOL


As for the time penalties Leclerc was handed, I totally disagree. With all the nonsensical and loose throwing around of "Racing Incident" for just about every contact involving certain drivers, if EVER there was an incident more appropriate of such, this was it. Leclerc was driving cleanly until Vettel drove across his bow and completely pulled the air away from Leclerc and his car immediately drifts outward without him moving the steering wheel and the impact pulls the wheel straight (left) and he wrestles to pull it back right.

Leclerc in Japan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzu22_zYCxE

Vestappen in Austria: https://youtu.be/hBpJD0WFq1o?t=219

Verstappen drifting into Leclerc in Austria was a purposeful move that forced contact and Leclerc off the road and it received no penalty so this is insulting to say the least. Just look at how Verstappen opens up early mid corner to force Leclerc wide on the 2nd attempt compared to the first attempt. It was CLEARLY a deliberate tactic and it went unpunished. Were I in charge of Ferrari I'd be inclined to "Gunther Steiner" it up in the worst way towards the Stewards and the FIA so as to call out the BS all day long.

James Hunt's take on these undeserved penalties: https://youtu.be/khA67-r5lSQ?t=24

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STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA

I agree that Austria was more deliberate and Japan was more a mistake, (albeit avoidable if Leclerc lifted a bit more), so punishing the latter but not the former is bizarre.

Your link shows that in Austria Max even protests ''He turned in on me'' which is a joke when Max has knowingly forced him off like that.

There was no reason for it not to be penalised during the race in Japan either, it was a lap 1 incident so why do they take forever to make a decision? Ferrari might not have pitted for the fastest lap attempt if they had known how much of a time penalty they would be getting, (and to be honest the penalty should have been decided by lap 4 or lap5 when Leclerc still had another stop to make where he could serve the penalty).

I read the thread title and found myself thinking, the chequered flag drops and - just 15 seconds later - we have a decision.

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But the difference between the 2 incident was intent.

In Austria, Verstappen’s intent was quite apparent and in Japan Leclerc’s ONLY intent was in trying to take the turn, but thanks to his teammates turning across his nose, taking much of his downforce away and the car drifted outward irrespective of Leclerc’s attempt to hold the line.

Being as there was no intent in Japan, it should be chalked up to a racing incident and no penalty was the right call. The late ruling after the race seems indicative of some calls being made and pressure applied to coerce a penalty. That as a load of manure.

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I've just thought of something. Now i think about it, Verstappen really should have been punished for in Spain 2018. Part of his terrible opening 6 races of the year.

On lap 43, when the safety car was ending, he hit Stroll and damaged his left front wing end plate. Stroll may have been going slow, But Verstappen seriously should not have suddenly got that close to Stroll either. Now Stroll maybe should not have slowed down this much, but in these conditions, drivers have to be prepared to slow down or stop. Verstappen hit a car that was still moving. So i think Verstappen is 100% to blame there. However, this is not related to what I think Verstappen should have been given the penalty for. Right after this, the yellow flags went and the race was on. He was driving around with a dangerous car with the plate nearly falling off. It then did fall off and Vettel had to take avoiding action or the outcome could have been terrible. Then one of Saubers had to do the same, then Perez ran over it and incredibly did not get damage.

But I do wonder why... Why did he not get investigated? The team even said "You've got endplate damage". Why was he not instructed to bit. Continuing on out there was as or more dangerous than what Leclerc did in Japan.

Great memory. A great example of why I am surprised Leclerc got a penalty. Driving around with damage has always been previously allowed.

Haha my memory is terrible. I have recorded every race for the past 4 years and have them all on a hard drive I was just sure i could remember Verstappen drove around with damage so i checked it to see what happened.

maybe it is because Leclerc's car actually visibly caused damage to another. A bit silly really given Verstappen's endplate could have caused Perez to get a puncture and then spin and cause those behind him to crash into him. I think what leclerc got was correct, but Verstappen should have got punished too for this.

How can you think Verstappen should have been punished if he wasn't asked to pit by race control? Or do you mean he should have been instructed to come in?

That's my guess, two cars, two races, one of them instructed and one of them not. And the examples may go as far back as the 70's, but this is as recent as last year. Either Leclerc should have been left out or the race control should have asked Max last year to come in. If I'm not mistaken the Ferrari had already been instructed to come in before the piece flew and hit Lewis's car. So if the FIA (correctly) asked a damaged car to come in before it became dangerous to the rest of the field, then why didn't they do this last year?

In any case, as always, it is the consistency that is lacking.

I was just pointing out that the stewards penalised a first lap incident between teammates so I'm not sure that a team has to protest to get incidents on the first lap investigated.

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The point is that drivers have ALWAYS run with damage of differing levels and only in cases where the damage is extensive enough and components are noticeably flailing about have drivers been forced to pit by race control. Leclerc's end plate damage was so insignificant it should never have warranted a pit stop to begin with because structurally it was still perfectly intact. It was just the end plate and we've seen countless drivers turn in countless laps with far greater damage.

The difference between Lclerc and Verstappen is Goldenboy preference because since he arrived in F1 Verstappen has been elbows out all the time with the occasional leg out to trip his fellow competitors when the elbows weren't enough and he's gone unpunished for the most part. On the other hand, other drivers coming together due to incidental contact usually gets a penalty so Verstappen not getting so much as a second look sometimes leaves me scratching my head.

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Well, he did go full speed at set fastest lap despite getting told he had got damage. It seemed like he was trying to drive in a manner to get rid of it. But driving with that damage he had was extremely dangerous and i personally think all drivers and/or teams should be punished if they keep driving quickly without pitting when it it likely their car will fall apart.

Its kind of on the team really. Don't forget a driver can't see their front wing at all. We've been OK with body work falling off cars for years.

Verstappen did ask to team to look at it and they said they had seen it and told him exactly what it was. But he kept going full speed despite this. Not that other drivers haven't done similar but I think Verstappen is very bad at this. Spa this year for example. It was simply idiotic to keep going fast and keep accelerating when you could tell your car was not steer as it should (which he was trying out). That was one of the most stupid ways to crash out this year.

But then I can't say leclerc is great in this area this year either. He IMO should have been given points on his licence or a grid drop next race for the manner in which he drove back to the pits in Monaco. Other drivers have managed to do an entire lap on a really long track with a puncture and get back out unharmed. He destroyed the possibility of him finishing. His car was flying all over the place. I still do wonder why more drivers are not punished for these things. When they know their car is damaged, they should drive slower IMO. I'm more concerned for safety than anything else. It could well be the case that they will change the approach to this once something bad happens...

It's there job to drive as quickly as possible. I don't think we want them driving off the pace due to minor front wing damage that they can't even see. It's also a pretty unrealistic expectation. They can't even get them to slow down for waved yellow flags. Drivers have always driven with damaged front wings. I remember in Fuji 07 Button did a number of laps without one.

If the race director thinks something is dangerous then it is up to them to act.

But i just feel that given so many bad things have happened in motor sport more recently, they really should make changes by now. Maybe not force them to drive that slow, but i think they should start forcing drivers to box if they have loose parts on their car.

It is a fact that this instance with Verstappen in Spain could have gone terribly wrong if Vettel hadn't reacted. I feel they only start to make changed once something has gone wrong... It was still bouncing high and had he taken the normal like, it likely would have slid up his front wing and towards the cockpit. I may be in the minority, but i really think they should change allowing drivers to stay out even with a small amount of damage if this sort of thing can happen.

Then I am confused. What are you actually blaming Verstappen for? It seems to me like you expect him to have taken unprecedented measures to ensure his car return as safely as possible to the pits. No driver does this. Verstappen wasn't instructed to do it and the race director didn't ask him to. I don't see how his actions here can be criticised regardless of if you think the race director should have intervened.

I don't think i am exactly against verstappen other than the crash in the first place (that i really think should have got some penalty). I just personally think that the team and/or driver should get punished for these things. I understand that Leclerc got punished, and I think Verstappen last year should have got punished too. But at leased he did not ignore orders. Unfortunate for the driver sometimes if the team haven't given them the advice about the damage. But drivers often get penalties for team related problems.

But if the stewards criticized Ferrari for telling Leclerc to stay out when he had a damaged car (part of the reason why he got a penalty), this is effectively why i think verstappen should have had one too. It is a very similar situation and i understand the reasons for Leclerc getting one. But Verstappen got away with hitting Stroll and nearly having his end plate ruin several other drivers races.