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Quick survey, what do we think?

Yes, for consistencies sake, please penalise Max with a 5 or 10 second penalty. He crowded another driver off the circuit, and they should have been able to navigate that corner side-by-side as they were able to do on the previous lap.

By giving Leclerc space, it allows Leclerc to fight Max back on the next straight. Max realises this and so bumps him off the course to prevent a fightback. It is a clear penalty and this race must be decided in Leclerc's favour.

He shouldn't get a penalty. But I wouldn't exactly call it a "clean overtake". It's a poorly worded option

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

No penalty. It clearly wasnt a 'clean' overtake since there was contact, so I'd consider removing that from the poll option personally.

Edit having seen reply above: arguably nitpicking but it did make me second guess which option I was choosing, I could see some people not voting at all on the basis that none of the options meet their view.

Deserved penalty.

Verstappen managed to leave a car width the lap before but couldn't on that lap & he clearly opened up the steering on exit forcing Leclerc off.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Haha yeah

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

I've been complaining about this sort of thing for a while, I don't see how it is fair to run the other driver off the road on the exit of the corner when they are side by side. There is no reason why Leclerc should have needed to back out given how far alongside he was, and Verstappen could and should have given him space. The move was not done by any means.

However having said that, we see this all the time and I don't see any precedent for a penalty being awarded here. I'd like it to be clamped down on, but it needs to be made clear at the start of the season that the stewards are going to start viewing these incidents differently.

Didn't Rosberg get a penalty in 2016 for forcing Hamilton off at the same corner?

Max essentially took the corner exit as though there was no car on his outside, he started flooring the accelerator from the apex onwards. Instead knowing a car was on his outside he needed to be full-lock right and gradually delaying planting his foot on the accelerator pedal to allow him to exit the corner with a tighter trajectory than normal. This would have allowed further racing between the two down the next straight and into turn four, exactly as we saw on the lap prior. That is the great thing about this incident, the lap earlier showed how close racing should always be handled, and the lap after it shows how badly it affects the racing when the outside driver is forced off the track and not allowed the chance to fight back for position.

Vettel's penalty in Canada was because he tried to force Hamilton off the outside of the circuit, the presence of the wall in Canada forced Hamilton to brake. Had the wall not been there Hamilton would have not braked and instead continued on and been forced off the circuit like Leclerc was here in Austria.

If there is no penalty dished out to Max then there is no consistency, something that the stewards are supposedly trying to address so a penalty should be given to Max here and I am hopeful that it will be. It is time to stop this crowding off the circuit of the outside driver, it's not fair and it's not right.

In 2016 Hamilton was slightly ahead though, and Rosberg didn't make any effort to make the corner at all. In this case I know that Leclerc was significantly alongside, but he was still slightly behind. Max could have left more room, but what he did there people do all the time. I think Perez overtook grosjean in Canada the same way, but GRosjean backed off completely because he saw it coming. Leclerc should have seen it coming.

So I don't think this particular move should be penalized. It was harsh, but fair enough imo.

failed to leave room, forced other driver off track, hit other drive twice despite not being other than equal - didn't fully lock to avoid collision - three red flags and Max should get 5 sec penalty imo

That's according to current rules - but it's hard as we all want good racing

The precedent is the lap prior showed what should always be done and the lap the incident occurred showed the contrast and how unnecessary it was.

There have been penalties for crowd-offs before, like Austria 2016, but not all the time, (like I believe Japan 2015 or 2014 when Nico was crowded off by Hamilton at turn two and Nico was unfairly forced to back out of contact). It doesn't get punished enough though, but here is a perfect chance to penalise it, and hopefully more consistency going forward should make this crowding off the circuit thing get punished more frequently.

They're not remotely similar. And in addition to that move, Rosberg blocked Hamilton from getting back on the track


https://i.eurosport.com/2016/07/04/1888493-39765700-2560-1440.jpg?w=1050

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I don't rely entirely on God

I rely on Prost

This is what I disagree with. it wouldn't be consistent at all to penalise Verstappen. Drivers do that to each other all the time and it never usually even raises an eyebrow.

This 'slighty ahead' thing is irrelevant when we are talking millimetres. Watching the replay Leclerc is slightly ahead of Max, but even if he was a few millimetres behind what difference does it really make to the nature of the incident? If you are close enough to have a good portion of your car alongside, then you deserve space whether you are fractionally ahead or fractionally behind, it shouldn't matter.

Why should Leclerc have ''seen it coming'' when he actually saw on the previous lap that he was given space in exactly the same situation? Even if you suspect you are about to be crowded off the circuit, you need to leave your car there and allow the other driver to barge you so that they can be penalised. If you back out of it, you are essentially giving into the bully and allowing them to get away with poor and unfair driving. So well done for Leclerc not backing out, he shouldn't have to back out at all.

A precedent would require a similar incident to have been punished in the past. I agree that Verstappen could have left more room but the previous lap doesn't really set a precedent as such.

The Hamilton/Rosberg incident in 2016 was different in that Rosberg didn't actually turn into the corner. Verstappen was pretty much holding the racing line here.

I agree that this sort of thing should be penalised, but I don't think it's right to suddenly start punishing it without a clear directive from the stewards.

It was not like he pushed him to overtake. He had already got him and then you control where you want to position your car. I am pretty sure he is safe. At the most it is racing incident.

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Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

It not raising eyebrows in the past is the issue though, not this incident. In the rules you are not allowed to crowd other drivers off the circuit. It is all the unpunished previous incidents which are wrong, and not this one. The great racing on the lap before show why crowding off should not be happening. This incident across the two laps puts to bed forever this whole crowding issue for me, just compare the nature of the racing across the prior lap and the subsequent lap. What happened on the prior lap is what we want to be encouraging more of, great action whilst still respecting the other drivers space and track limits. The subsequent lap is the example of what we do not want to see happen, unclean passes and unfairly forcing yourself through by crowding and bumping the other driver off the circuit.

This will help shed some light on the scenario.

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Feel The Fourth

He had not already got him, just look at the previous lap.

If Max exits turn 3 tighter and slower by giving Leclerc space, then Leclerc repasses him into turn 4, so Max was not cleanly through here at all!

Very well put. The previous lap actually makes Max's position look weaker as that was a truly fair passing attempt.

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Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
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Do you not think it's unfair to penalise someone for an action that usually goes unpunished?

I think it still matters. If someone is slightly ahead of you you have to respect them more. You always have to respect the car in front of you, it's racing 101. I watched it again, paused it at the apex and I can clearly see that Max's car is further ahead than Charle's. That's the moment Leclerc should have backed off.

In the tweet above, around the 33rd second, it looks as if Max does push him off. He should've kept space as he knew Leclerc was there.

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Feel The Fourth

You can even see Verstappen clearly missing the apex by a fair margin on that lap whereas the previous lap i'm pretty sure he hit the apex perfect.

To me it looks like he intended to run Leclerc wide from the get go.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

Absolutely nothing wrong with that pass, Max took the line and remained full lock without losing control. It will be a sad day if that is considered penalty worthy.

People can happily believe that kind of pass is fair, that's everyone's prerogative. However, it's proven that he didn't fully maintain full lock.

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Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

It is right to start getting the racing fairly judged. The past has had mistakes, there's no need to keep the mistakes happening, hence Canada 2019 and hopefully Austria 2019.

Once you have the inside and nose is front basically you can position your car and Charles would be late to get the power down. I do not think he had any chance even though both were using max engine power the traction and grip that RBR had the move was done.

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Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"

No penalty, he had full lock on. Not much else he could do.

And lock is irrelevant anyway, because he can lift off the gas and not force his car to the outside by exiting the corner slower. However if he does that he gives Leclerc a fair chance to get a run on him into turn four, like what happened on the prior lap. Instead Max resorted to being unfair to stop Leclerc fighting back at him and this is wrong. Please let this selfish move from Max be punished.

So in terms of full-lock or partial lock, or was he accelerating or not accelerating, none of it matters, all that matters is whether he allowed his car to move completely towards the outside edge of the circuit, (thereby giving no space to Leclerc). The answer is that he did indeed move his car to the outside edge of the circuit, so he crowded Leclerc off.

Err... lift off the accelerator pedal maybe? He was in full control of his car and is fully able to exit that corner tighter than he chose to, as he demonstrated on the previous lap when he was racing fairly.

Not the smoothest of overtakes but job done by Verstappen.

In my opinion, no penalty - and I'm a Leclerc fan...

Absolutely fantastic drive by Max and a truly deserved win. He was bound to pass Charles at some point on the last couple of laps.

Still gutted that Leclerc hasn't obtained his first GP victory. Even if they do decide to penalise Max, is it really the way you would want to win your first ever GP? Charles will get there and he'll win it fair and square at some point (this season, hopefully!)

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Alfa Romeo Racing

PF1 Autosport GP 2017: 3rd Place

Exactly. There's more than one person on here who are letting Max off because he was accelerating and couldn't therefore turn any harder. What a poor reason that is. Take you foot off it.

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Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world

The previous lap shows that the move was not done, Leclerc exiting the corner on the outside would have been able to get the power down firmly, whereas Max if he was leaving a car's width of space on the oustide would be getting on the power a little more gingerly. This would allow Leclerc a decent chance of holding Max off into turn four.

So was it poor driving by Max on the earlier lap then, as he didn't punt Leclerc off but apparently he should have done as it was acceptable for him to do it a lap later?

Check out the attempt pass at 0:50. Leclerc left him just enough room & Verstappen managed to hit the apex & race clean leaving Leclerc room on exit.

Then go to 1:40. Leclerc leaves Verstappen more room but instead of catching the apex, he keeps it wide by i'd guess 1/2 a car width, then, even though he'd had more than enough room to tighten up the corner, he instead straightens the car up, allowing it to drift to the outside & forces Leclerc off the track.

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Races since last non RB, Merc, Ferrari winner (After Brazil- 19) - 138 & counting.( Last win, Lotus, 17/3/13)

Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 360 trophies available, 26 won

2017 WCC CPTTC - Jalopy Racing (Herb & Me)

When seeing from Verstappen's viewpoint, it does look as if he came out of the steering lock & didn't try to make the turn as neatly as possible to obscure Leclerc.

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Feel The Fourth

It wasn’t super clean but it would be refreshing to have a close, exciting race end with a pass with no Steward action

People are treating this as if Max is the one defending his position and not the one overtaking.