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Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:That's true helped by the rain.

Or helped by his rival not having tyres ready when he was called in? I don't see how you can classify 2016 as anything but a lucky win, pure and simple.

As lucky as his 2016 win was, it was also probably his best Monaco performance. He was the only driver not to use the intermediate tyre on the drying track, instead keeping the full wets in good shape and making the switch straight to slicks later on. It saved him a pitstop and put him in position to capitalise on Red Bull's pitstop calamity.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:That's true helped by the rain.

Or helped by his rival not having tyres ready when he was called in? I don't see how you can classify 2016 as anything but a lucky win, pure and simple.

Did I not agree it was lucky?

I mentioned the rain specifically because he would never have got passed Rosberg in the dry, Rosberg being 2 to 3 seconds off the pace of Ricciardo forced Mercedes to give a team order to Rosberg.

In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Hamiltons Monaco 2008 is similar to Buttons canada 2011. Both were great drives but both made big errors, Button multiple.

KingVoid wrote:In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Not in terms of results but he's always had the speed around Monaco.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Not in terms of results but he's always had the speed around Monaco.

Is there a track where Hamilton doesn't have speed?

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Not in terms of results but he's always had the speed around Monaco.

Is there a track where Hamilton doesn't have speed?

I’m inclined to say Austria but the sample size is rather small.

I’m also inclined to say Russia, but again, small sample size.

In general Hamilton is fast everywhere, but less so around some circuits than others.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Not in terms of results but he's always had the speed around Monaco.

Is there a track where Hamilton doesn't have speed?

Obviously he is good everywhere but he does have tracks where he is better than others. Russia, Austria and Brazil possibly.

KingVoid wrote:I’m inclined to say Austria but the sample size is rather small.

I’m also inclined to say Russia, but again, small sample size.

mikeyg123 wrote:Obviously he is good everywhere but he does have tracks where he is better than others. Russia, Austria and Brazil possibly.

Russia is a bit of an unclear one, because he's only had two teammates since it arrived on the calendar: one of them was generally quicker than him there (Rosberg), while the other (Bottas) was a well-known Russia specialist before they were ever partnered. It's hard to say if Hamilton is weak around Russia, or if it was a good track for Rosberg as well as for Bottas (for whom we know it is).

Austria is a good call. He seemed to lack pace there compared to both Rosberg and Bottas, and it didn't seem like an outstanding track for Bottas before he joined Mercedes. Brazil I would have agreed at one point, but the last few years he's been very good there.

One other occurred to me after I posed the question, which is Baku, but that has a very small sample size and is more related to something always going wrong than not having pace - a bit like Monaco, perhaps.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Not in terms of results but he's always had the speed around Monaco.

Is there a track where Hamilton doesn't have speed?

As a long time Ham supporter I would say at the tracks that are more 'restrained' in terms of creativity, complexity, so tracks that are a bit more dull in that sense.
So yea, Austria, Russia (at which its all about precision and finesse) and one one that stands out I'd say Suzuka - although beautiful, but narrow track, smooth surface, not much possibility to throw around the car as you wish and get away with it; it's all about details and smoothness to get the best lap.
Not that he wasn't fast at these tracks, but he didn't shine the same against his teammates.
I see Hamilton more like one that likes wide tracks, corners with various radius, multiple racing lines....Like Silverstone for ex.

Exediron wrote:

KingVoid wrote:I’m inclined to say Austria but the sample size is rather small.

I’m also inclined to say Russia, but again, small sample size.

mikeyg123 wrote:Obviously he is good everywhere but he does have tracks where he is better than others. Russia, Austria and Brazil possibly.

Russia is a bit of an unclear one, because he's only had two teammates since it arrived on the calendar: one of them was generally quicker than him there (Rosberg), while the other (Bottas) was a well-known Russia specialist before they were ever partnered. It's hard to say if Hamilton is weak around Russia, or if it was a good track for Rosberg as well as for Bottas (for whom we know it is).

Austria is a good call. He seemed to lack pace there compared to both Rosberg and Bottas, and it didn't seem like an outstanding track for Bottas before he joined Mercedes. Brazil I would have agreed at one point, but the last few years he's been very good there.

One other occurred to me after I posed the question, which is Baku, but that has a very small sample size and is more related to something always going wrong than not having pace - a bit like Monaco, perhaps.

I think at Hamilton's better tracks it wouldn't matter how good Rosberg or Bottas were round them.

It was nice to see Hamilton's tweet from Brand's Hatch, supporting his brother in the BTCC.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:In 2008 Hamilton hit the wall, got a puncture, and strategically benefited from it. To this day, I cannot recall any other race in history where a driver strategically benefited from getting a puncture.

My point is that Monaco has never been Lewis’ best circuit. Although knowing my history of jinxing, he will probably dominate the race this year.

Not in terms of results but he's always had the speed around Monaco.

Is there a track where Hamilton doesn't have speed?

I don't believe so, it's whether the poster himself thought that was an issue for Hamilton at Monaco?

Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Reality is Mercedes are going to be title contenders until 2021 at least, the win record is as good as Hamiltons IMO.

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Reality is Mercedes are going to be title contenders until 2021 at least, the win record is as good as Hamiltons IMO.

That would still be close, if he continues at his same win rate of 17/18, 9 and 11 wins, he would just get it at about the last race of 2020. If he does do it then, he will likely be a 7 times WDC too.

Johnson wrote:

Black_Flag_11 wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Reality is Mercedes are going to be title contenders until 2021 at least, the win record is as good as Hamiltons IMO.

That would still be close, if he continues at his same win rate of 17/18, 9 and 11 wins, he would just get it at about the last race of 2020. If he does do it then, he will likely be a 7 times WDC too.

Sure but you have to assume someone of his caliber will be able to get a few wins even if Mercedes aren't in championship contention after 2021.

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

FormulaFun wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

To be fair in that 2010-2012 period he still only had one title to his name and hadn't yet really put together a consistent, error-free season in his career. The talent was clearly there, but he wasn't the well-rounded complete package that he is now and to call him one of the greatest at that time was a bit of a stretch. Having said that, the claims at the time of Button being the better driver didn't make much sense to me either. Anyone who actually watched the races and qualifying rather than just taking the results at face value could see that Button was not on the same level.

FormulaFun wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

Ah yes! Who could forget that 3 year championship that Button eventually won over Lewis between 2010-2012? Lol

The good old days...

Now 7 wdc seem inevitable and so do the total wins record. Unreal!

j man wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

To be fair in that 2010-2012 period he still only had one title to his name and hadn't yet really put together a consistent, error-free season in his career. The talent was clearly there, but he wasn't the well-rounded complete package that he is now and to call him one of the greatest at that time was a bit of a stretch. Having said that, the claims at the time of Button being the better driver didn't make much sense to me either. Anyone who actually watched the races and qualifying rather than just taking the results at face value could see that Button was not on the same level.

No doubt he's a better driver now, but 2011 aside which I think we can all agree was a really tough year, I would say Hamilton was still very very strong in 2010 and 2012 and could have been classed as one of the sports best racers and fastest guys and personally always rated him above vettel. I think the main thing going against him back then was the weight of expectation he put on himself abd others put on him meant he was often trying too hard and that led to a lot more mistakes. In 2010 he was arguably the best driver along with Fernando and fought for the wdc in 2nd-3rd best car, and 2012 he was very strong but let down by the team, and these kinds of situatioks used to put him in a downward spiral of frustration whereas now he is a lot better at knowing when he's beat and that's key to improving his consistency

FormulaFun wrote:

j man wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

To be fair in that 2010-2012 period he still only had one title to his name and hadn't yet really put together a consistent, error-free season in his career. The talent was clearly there, but he wasn't the well-rounded complete package that he is now and to call him one of the greatest at that time was a bit of a stretch. Having said that, the claims at the time of Button being the better driver didn't make much sense to me either. Anyone who actually watched the races and qualifying rather than just taking the results at face value could see that Button was not on the same level.

No doubt he's a better driver now, but 2011 aside which I think we can all agree was a really tough year, I would say Hamilton was still very very strong in 2010 and 2012 and could have been classed as one of the sports best racers and fastest guys and personally always rated him above vettel. I think the main thing going against him back then was the weight of expectation he put on himself abd others put on him meant he was often trying too hard and that led to a lot more mistakes. In 2010 he was arguably the best driver along with Fernando and fought for the wdc in 2nd-3rd best car, and 2012 he was very strong but let down by the team, and these kinds of situatioks used to put him in a downward spiral of frustration whereas now he is a lot better at knowing when he's beat and that's key to improving his consistency

I agree with both of you, both good points. Only thing I would add is that 2010 was pretty faultless until he started taking a few risks to stay in the title fight, once the Mclaren was clear 3rd best car. The start at Monza and the move on Webber in Singapore.

Johnson wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:

j man wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:

Johnson wrote:Win 75, 17 to go to beat Schumacher.

It’s crazy to think that Hamilton could be at the top or joint top of every single meaningful F1 record in 18 months time.

Wins is looking reasonably realistic now, given that Hamilton has won 10 of the last 14 races. It will mostly depend on next years Mercedes. Championships will be the toughest to equal.

Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

To be fair in that 2010-2012 period he still only had one title to his name and hadn't yet really put together a consistent, error-free season in his career. The talent was clearly there, but he wasn't the well-rounded complete package that he is now and to call him one of the greatest at that time was a bit of a stretch. Having said that, the claims at the time of Button being the better driver didn't make much sense to me either. Anyone who actually watched the races and qualifying rather than just taking the results at face value could see that Button was not on the same level.

No doubt he's a better driver now, but 2011 aside which I think we can all agree was a really tough year, I would say Hamilton was still very very strong in 2010 and 2012 and could have been classed as one of the sports best racers and fastest guys and personally always rated him above vettel. I think the main thing going against him back then was the weight of expectation he put on himself abd others put on him meant he was often trying too hard and that led to a lot more mistakes. In 2010 he was arguably the best driver along with Fernando and fought for the wdc in 2nd-3rd best car, and 2012 he was very strong but let down by the team, and these kinds of situatioks used to put him in a downward spiral of frustration whereas now he is a lot better at knowing when he's beat and that's key to improving his consistency

I agree with both of you, both good points. Only thing I would add is that 2010 was pretty faultless until he started taking a few risks to stay in the title fight, once the Mclaren was clear 3rd best car. The start at Monza and the move on Webber in Singapore.

Yeah they are perfect examples of him trying too hard when really if he'd have just settled for a podium or decent finishing position in either of those races he'd have won the WDC, and I think if you put the 2018 Hamilton in those situations we would have seen... But still he was an absolute animal for the first half of 2010.

Apparently Jackie Stewart still hasn’t got a very high opinion of Lewis Hamilton’s achievements and puts it down to him being a ‘lucky boy’.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... rcedes/amp
“What Lewis has done is moved at the right time to Mercedes. Of course he’s a very good driver. But is he better than Sebastian Vettel?

Only with the power of hindsight though and only because all three of the other title contenders would have 1 or 2 awful races in the final 4.
Vettel, DNF
Webber, DNF and an 8th
Alonso, a 7th

The final race also would have played out a lot differently if Hamilton was in serious title contention too. I doubt Alonso and Webber end up back there.

FormulaFun wrote:

Johnson wrote:

FormulaFun wrote:

j man wrote:

FormulaFun wrote: Definitely crazy, doesn't feel like 5 minutes ago we were having to argue that he was better than button since he got more points then him between 2010 and 2012 and that calling Hamilton one of the greatest would make you some deluded Hamilton fanboy. Now it's undeniable. Feels good man

To be fair in that 2010-2012 period he still only had one title to his name and hadn't yet really put together a consistent, error-free season in his career. The talent was clearly there, but he wasn't the well-rounded complete package that he is now and to call him one of the greatest at that time was a bit of a stretch. Having said that, the claims at the time of Button being the better driver didn't make much sense to me either. Anyone who actually watched the races and qualifying rather than just taking the results at face value could see that Button was not on the same level.

No doubt he's a better driver now, but 2011 aside which I think we can all agree was a really tough year, I would say Hamilton was still very very strong in 2010 and 2012 and could have been classed as one of the sports best racers and fastest guys and personally always rated him above vettel. I think the main thing going against him back then was the weight of expectation he put on himself abd others put on him meant he was often trying too hard and that led to a lot more mistakes. In 2010 he was arguably the best driver along with Fernando and fought for the wdc in 2nd-3rd best car, and 2012 he was very strong but let down by the team, and these kinds of situatioks used to put him in a downward spiral of frustration whereas now he is a lot better at knowing when he's beat and that's key to improving his consistency

I agree with both of you, both good points. Only thing I would add is that 2010 was pretty faultless until he started taking a few risks to stay in the title fight, once the Mclaren was clear 3rd best car. The start at Monza and the move on Webber in Singapore.

Yeah they are perfect examples of him trying too hard when really if he'd have just settled for a podium or decent finishing position in either of those races he'd have won the WDC, and I think if you put the 2018 Hamilton in those situations we would have seen... But still he was an absolute animal for the first half of 2010.

For me 2007-10 Hamilton was the best driver in F1, he lost his way a bit after 2011 a season when he seemed to have some kind of mental breakdown.

In the second half of the 2010 season Hamilton was competing in the third best car and finished only 12 points being Alonso making fewer mistakes than Alonso during the season, however I think nowadays more is made of Alonso taking the title down to the wire in an inferior car to Vettel?

bonecrasher wrote:Apparently Jackie Stewart still hasn’t got a very high opinion of Lewis Hamilton’s achievements and puts it down to him being a ‘lucky boy’.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.expr ... rcedes/amp
“What Lewis has done is moved at the right time to Mercedes. Of course he’s a very good driver. But is he better than Sebastian Vettel?

The guy continues to be jealous of Hamilton because he took away from him the standing of being the most successful British driver in F1, every Sky interview you seem with him there is always thrown in a barbed comment.

pokerman wrote:In the second half of the 2010 season Hamilton was competing in the third best car and finished only 12 points being Alonso making fewer mistakes than Alonso during the season, however I think nowadays more is made of Alonso taking the title down to the wire in an inferior car to Vettel?

Speaking as an Alonso fan, I don't think 2010 was an impressive season from Fernando. While I do think the 2010 Ferrari was inferior to the Red Bull, Alonso had a car to win the title if he'd driven as well as he did in other seasons (such as 2012 or 2014, both seasons where he drove almost flawlessly and didn't get rewarded).

I think he will surpass the 91 wins record next season.

Merc will be near the top again next season, and you'd have to think he will have a car capable of delivering 17 wins in 40 odd races.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:In the second half of the 2010 season Hamilton was competing in the third best car and finished only 12 points being Alonso making fewer mistakes than Alonso during the season, however I think nowadays more is made of Alonso taking the title down to the wire in an inferior car to Vettel?

Speaking as an Alonso fan, I don't think 2010 was an impressive season from Fernando. While I do think the 2010 Ferrari was inferior to the Red Bull, Alonso had a car to win the title if he'd driven as well as he did in other seasons (such as 2012 or 2014, both seasons where he drove almost flawlessly and didn't get rewarded).

I didn't realise that.

In hindsight it's a shame that Alonso didn't win in both in 2010 and 2012, Alonso as a 4 time WDC and Vettel as a 2 time WDC sits better for me.

Badgeronimous wrote:I think he will surpass the 91 wins record next season.

Merc will be near the top again next season, and you'd have to think he will have a car capable of delivering 17 wins in 40 odd races.

I think with Mercedes we are now seeing that it's not all about the engine, they build a really good car so I think there are still plenty of wins for him post 2021 if he decides to carry on, the wins record is there for him if he wants it?

pokerman wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:I think he will surpass the 91 wins record next season.

Merc will be near the top again next season, and you'd have to think he will have a car capable of delivering 17 wins in 40 odd races.

I think with Mercedes we are now seeing that it's not all about the engine, they build a really good car so I think there are still plenty of wins for him post 2021 if he decides to carry on, the wins record is there for him if he wants it?

To be fair, it was never just about their engine, as when the same power unit was put in the back of the Williams, Force India etc. those teams were still slow in comparison to Mercedes.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:I think he will surpass the 91 wins record next season.

Merc will be near the top again next season, and you'd have to think he will have a car capable of delivering 17 wins in 40 odd races.

I think with Mercedes we are now seeing that it's not all about the engine, they build a really good car so I think there are still plenty of wins for him post 2021 if he decides to carry on, the wins record is there for him if he wants it?

To be fair, it was never just about their engine, as when the same power unit was put in the back of the Williams, Force India etc. those teams were still slow in comparison to Mercedes.

Well I meant more about the other top teams like Ferrari and Red Bull.

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:I think he will surpass the 91 wins record next season.

Merc will be near the top again next season, and you'd have to think he will have a car capable of delivering 17 wins in 40 odd races.

I think with Mercedes we are now seeing that it's not all about the engine, they build a really good car so I think there are still plenty of wins for him post 2021 if he decides to carry on, the wins record is there for him if he wants it?

To be fair, it was never just about their engine, as when the same power unit was put in the back of the Williams, Force India etc. those teams were still slow in comparison to Mercedes.

Well I meant more about the other top teams like Ferrari and Red Bull.

Yes, but if the Mercedes engine was all-conquering and the main reason for their success, then Williams and Force India would have been top teams too if their chassis' were fairly good. It's only because their chassis' were poor compared to Mercedes very good chassis, that they weren't top teams. Williams in 2014 were kind of a top team but were still not really that competitive with Mercedes and it was just a Hamilton/Rosberg title fight and one pole position in Austria for Williams where they were much slower in the race.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Badgeronimous wrote:I think he will surpass the 91 wins record next season.

Merc will be near the top again next season, and you'd have to think he will have a car capable of delivering 17 wins in 40 odd races.

I think with Mercedes we are now seeing that it's not all about the engine, they build a really good car so I think there are still plenty of wins for him post 2021 if he decides to carry on, the wins record is there for him if he wants it?

To be fair, it was never just about their engine, as when the same power unit was put in the back of the Williams, Force India etc. those teams were still slow in comparison to Mercedes.

Well I meant more about the other top teams like Ferrari and Red Bull.

Yes, but if the Mercedes engine was all-conquering and the main reason for their success, then Williams and Force India would have been top teams too if their chassis' were fairly good. It's only because their chassis' were poor compared to Mercedes very good chassis, that they weren't top teams. Williams in 2014 were kind of a top team but were still not really that competitive with Mercedes and it was just a Hamilton/Rosberg title fight and one pole position in Austria for Williams where they were much slower in the race.

Williams were never a top team though, despite the Mercedes engine they never finished 2nd in the WDC, with inferior engines both Ferrari and Red Bull managed to beat them.

pokerman wrote: Williams were never a top team though, despite the Mercedes engine they never finished 2nd in the WDC, with inferior engines both Ferrari and Red Bull managed to beat them.

Exactly, Williams were never a top team because their chassis was average/poor, which means by implication that Mercedes must have had a good chassis to actually be competing for the championships and beating Ferrari/Red Bull while having the same engine as the Williams. Therefore Mercedes have always had a good chassis during all of the years of this domination, they were never just a team that was a one-trick pony that happened to ace the engine rules; they aced all the other rules too.

So going back to your original point, this idea of Mercedes having a good chassis finally being apparent now in 2019 is not correct; it was clear in 2014 and 2015 that their chassis was good or they wouldn't have been able to crush the teams with the same engine like that.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote: Williams were never a top team though, despite the Mercedes engine they never finished 2nd in the WDC, with inferior engines both Ferrari and Red Bull managed to beat them.

Exactly, they were never a top team because their chassis was average/poor, which means by implication that Mercedes must have had a good chassis to actually be competing for the championships and beating Ferrari/Red Bull while having the same engine as the Williams. Therefore Mercedes have always had a good chassis during all of the years of this domination, they were never just a team that was a one-trick pony that happened to ace the engine rules; they aced all the other rules too.

Well I guess we are agreeing then?

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote: Williams were never a top team though, despite the Mercedes engine they never finished 2nd in the WDC, with inferior engines both Ferrari and Red Bull managed to beat them.

Exactly, they were never a top team because their chassis was average/poor, which means by implication that Mercedes must have had a good chassis to actually be competing for the championships and beating Ferrari/Red Bull while having the same engine as the Williams. Therefore Mercedes have always had a good chassis during all of the years of this domination, they were never just a team that was a one-trick pony that happened to ace the engine rules; they aced all the other rules too.

Well I guess we are agreeing then?

No, we are disagreeing about your original point of it only now being apparent that Mercedes have a good car. You can't dominate the opposition in 2014, 2015 and 2016 unless you are getting virtually everything right and leaving no stone unturned to be as best as possible.

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote:

F1 Racer wrote:

pokerman wrote: Williams were never a top team though, despite the Mercedes engine they never finished 2nd in the WDC, with inferior engines both Ferrari and Red Bull managed to beat them.

Exactly, they were never a top team because their chassis was average/poor, which means by implication that Mercedes must have had a good chassis to actually be competing for the championships and beating Ferrari/Red Bull while having the same engine as the Williams. Therefore Mercedes have always had a good chassis during all of the years of this domination, they were never just a team that was a one-trick pony that happened to ace the engine rules; they aced all the other rules too.

Well I guess we are agreeing then?

No, we are disagreeing about your original point of it only now being apparent that Mercedes have a good car. You can't dominate the opposition in 2014, 2015 and 2016 unless you are getting virtually everything right and leaving no stone unturned to be as best as possible.

Yeah I see your point, it wasn't really expressing my own opinion but what I believe the general opinion might have been in regards to the engine doing all the winning for Mercedes, even in 2017 this was still being mooted.

After the Azerbaijan Grand Prix today, Lewis Hamilton said he was guilty of being “too friendly” with Valtteri Bottas in their first-lap fight for the race lead at the Azerbaijan Grand Prix. He and Valtteri went side by side through a number of corners before Lewis conceded the position.

I am wondering if Lewis is taking Valtteri seriously enough as a title rival. Valtteri has his head down because he knows his ride is anything but safe. With Ocon siting next to Toto at the races Bottas has to be nervous about next year. Lewis on the other hand, seems to be more concerned with Ferriari rivals Vettel and Leclerc. So far as long as Mercedes comes 1-2 Lewis is happy.

I would rather not go back to team mate animosity like we had with Rosberg/Hamilton in 2015 & 2016 but I do think Lewis needs to keep his focus on winning and that includes beating Bottas.