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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:54 am 
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I haven't been following drivers standings that closely this season, but I just noticed that with 58 points Calros Sainz is by far the "best of the rest" and in 7th place in the WDC. His teammate, Lando Norris, currently sits at 24 and the next driver after Sainz is Kvyat with only 33. It hasn't been a mistake free season for Sainz and he started it with three straight races out of the points, but he has been quite stellar aside from that, and the points tally doesn't lie - he brought great results for the team. I am dedicating a thread to him because he seems to fly very much under the radar and is one of the least talked about drivers on the grid.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:02 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
I haven't been following drivers standings that closely this season, but I just noticed that with 58 points Calros Sainz is by far the "best of the rest" and in 7th place in the WDC. His teammate, Lando Norris, currently sits at 24 and the next driver after Sainz is Kvyat with only 33. It hasn't been a mistake free season for Sainz and he started it with three straight races out of the points, but he has been quite stellar aside from that, and the points tally doesn't lie - he brought great results for the team. I am dedicating a thread to him because he seems to fly very much under the radar and is one of the least talked about drivers on the grid.


He's doing OK but he is also being matched and outqualifued by a rookie. Norris has lost a huge amount of points to bad luck.

That rarely happens to an experienced driver having a great season. I think he's being flattered by the car. Put him in a Racing Point getting matched by Norris and I think he'd be getting panned.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 12:03 pm 
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He is doing very well. I certainly believe that the Macca is much improved and is also best of the rest but Sainz has largely been maximising his results. Norris should probably be a lot closer but he has suffered some misfortune and less-than-optimal strategy at times. Don't get me wrong, Sainz has not been free of bad luck himself but I still think that Norris has had the lion's share in that respect. Between them, they have barely put a foot wrong.
Sainz has shown promise since day one. He had a few iffy races in his earlier years but has really shone this season thus far.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
I haven't been following drivers standings that closely this season, but I just noticed that with 58 points Calros Sainz is by far the "best of the rest" and in 7th place in the WDC. His teammate, Lando Norris, currently sits at 24 and the next driver after Sainz is Kvyat with only 33. It hasn't been a mistake free season for Sainz and he started it with three straight races out of the points, but he has been quite stellar aside from that, and the points tally doesn't lie - he brought great results for the team. I am dedicating a thread to him because he seems to fly very much under the radar and is one of the least talked about drivers on the grid.


He's doing OK but he is also being matched and outqualifued by a rookie. Norris has lost a huge amount of points to bad luck.

That rarely happens to an experienced driver having a great season. I think he's being flattered by the car. Put him in a Racing Point getting matched by Norris and I think he'd be getting panned.


Nail on the head! out of the 2 I would say Norris is a fraction better!


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:27 pm 
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I think both McLaren drivers are having a decent season and are pretty well matched, it’s just that Norris can’t catch a break.

Hydraulic failure in France
Safety car ruined his strategy in Silverstone
Suspension failure in Canada
Engine failure in Spa
Engine failure in Germany

I reckon that cost him about 40 odd points through no fault of his own.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:20 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
I think both McLaren drivers are having a decent season and are pretty well matched, it’s just that Norris can’t catch a break.

Hydraulic failure in France
Safety car ruined his strategy in Silverstone
Suspension failure in Canada
Engine failure in Spa
Engine failure in Germany

I reckon that cost him about 40 odd points through no fault of his own.


Yep, I actually think Norris has been performing better which is why it baffles me how highly Sainz seems to be getting rated. To be out performed by a rookie a driver usually has to be pretty poor.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 2:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I think both McLaren drivers are having a decent season and are pretty well matched, it’s just that Norris can’t catch a break.

Hydraulic failure in France
Safety car ruined his strategy in Silverstone
Suspension failure in Canada
Engine failure in Spa
Engine failure in Germany

I reckon that cost him about 40 odd points through no fault of his own.


Yep, I actually think Norris has been performing better which is why it baffles me how highly Sainz seems to be getting rated. To be out performed by a rookie a driver usually has to be pretty poor.


Even if his teammate is better, and Norris does appear to be quicker, at least in qualifying, doesn't mean that Sainz can't be having a good season by his standards. I think expectation for Norris were always very high whereas for Sainz, not so much.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:32 pm 
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I think mclaren have a solid pair of drivers, are doing great in terms of improvements and are starting to show the DNA that made them great.

I would love them to be pushing red bull again,


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 3:49 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I think both McLaren drivers are having a decent season and are pretty well matched, it’s just that Norris can’t catch a break.

Hydraulic failure in France
Safety car ruined his strategy in Silverstone
Suspension failure in Canada
Engine failure in Spa
Engine failure in Germany

I reckon that cost him about 40 odd points through no fault of his own.


Yep, I actually think Norris has been performing better which is why it baffles me how highly Sainz seems to be getting rated. To be out performed by a rookie a driver usually has to be pretty poor.


Even if his teammate is better, and Norris does appear to be quicker, at least in qualifying, doesn't mean that Sainz can't be having a good season by his standards. I think expectation for Norris were always very high whereas for Sainz, not so much.


Why is that then? His dad was a multiple world champion two times and four times runner up.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 4:33 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
I think both McLaren drivers are having a decent season and are pretty well matched, it’s just that Norris can’t catch a break.

Hydraulic failure in France
Safety car ruined his strategy in Silverstone
Suspension failure in Canada
Engine failure in Spa
Engine failure in Germany

I reckon that cost him about 40 odd points through no fault of his own.


Yep, I actually think Norris has been performing better which is why it baffles me how highly Sainz seems to be getting rated. To be out performed by a rookie a driver usually has to be pretty poor.


Even if his teammate is better, and Norris does appear to be quicker, at least in qualifying, doesn't mean that Sainz can't be having a good season by his standards. I think expectation for Norris were always very high whereas for Sainz, not so much.


We wouldn't normally expect an experienced midfield guy like Sainz to look slower than a rookie. That's pretty rare. I'd say most people expected Sainz to look better against Norris than he has. Sainz is being consistent and doing OK but he's being flattered by a better than expected car.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:14 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
We wouldn't normally expect an experienced midfield guy like Sainz to look slower than a rookie. That's pretty rare. I'd say most people expected Sainz to look better against Norris than he has. Sainz is being consistent and doing OK but he's being flattered by a better than expected car.

I think it says more about Norris than Sainz to be honest. Norris is looking almost as good (arguably better, at least in qualifying) against Sainz as Max did - and Sainz isn't a rookie anymore. I think Norris is being seriously underrated this year.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:22 pm 
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I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:32 pm 
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lord byron wrote:
I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff


Now that's a big call, especially since he just re-signed for Macca for another 3 years.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:32 pm 
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lord byron wrote:
I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff


An astonishingly bad take.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:53 pm 
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lord byron wrote:
I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff


What a weird statement. 8O


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:02 pm 
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lord byron wrote:
I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff


I must have woken up on the wrong side of the bed this morning but I don't recognize "ROJO"??????

Little help???

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Grosjean?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Grosjean?


That's usually RoGro. :?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:20 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
lord byron wrote:
I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff

An astonishingly bad take.

+1

What an odd thing to say.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:33 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
lord byron wrote:
I can see Lando Norris getting replaced by rojo or the hulk.

Its fair to say hes just not top team stuff

An astonishingly bad take.

+1

What an odd thing to say.


Agreed!!! :thumbup: :nod:

Lord Byron may be a great poet but obviously know nothing about Formula 1. :nod:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:39 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Grosjean?


That's usually RoGro. :?


J and G are often confused, I have no idea actually, just guessing, at least I recognise Norris has significant talent though!


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:54 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Grosjean?


That's usually RoGro. :?


J and G are often confused, I have no idea actually, just guessing, at least I recognise Norris has significant talent though!


Norris has significant talent and (barring extraordinary circumstances) a lock on that seat at McLaren for about 3 years. ...or at least one would think.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:55 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Grosjean?


That's usually RoGro. :?


J and G are often confused, I have no idea actually, just guessing, at least I recognise Norris has significant talent though!


Norris has significant talent and (barring extraordinary circumstances) a lock on that seat at McLaren for about 3 years. ...or at least one would think.


Maybe Ferrari will buy out his contract for him to replace Vettel for 2021 or 2022 ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:57 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Grosjean?


That's usually RoGro. :?


J and G are often confused, I have no idea actually, just guessing, at least I recognise Norris has significant talent though!


Norris has significant talent and (barring extraordinary circumstances) a lock on that seat at McLaren for about 3 years. ...or at least one would think.


Maybe Ferrari will buy out his contract for him to replace Vettel for 2021 or 2022 ;)


I think that seat is being reserved for the young Schumi.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:02 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:

That's usually RoGro. :?


J and G are often confused, I have no idea actually, just guessing, at least I recognise Norris has significant talent though!


Norris has significant talent and (barring extraordinary circumstances) a lock on that seat at McLaren for about 3 years. ...or at least one would think.


Maybe Ferrari will buy out his contract for him to replace Vettel for 2021 or 2022 ;)


I think that seat is being reserved for the young Schumi.


He won't be in F1 until 2021 at the earliest though and that will be probably be with Alfa so they might replace Vettel before Mick Schumacher is ready.

*I'm assuming Vettel leaves Ferrari once his current contract is up at the end of next year.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:28 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
I think that seat is being reserved for the young Schumi.


He'll have to buck his ideas up a tad to even get into F1. Winning a reverse grid race at a circuit notoriously difficult for overtaking is one thing but in a pretty weak F2 field he hasn't exactly shone. In feature races, which translate closest to an F1 format, his only points are two 8th place finishes.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:42 pm 
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Once again Carlos finishes as best of the rest, this time in 5th. He is rapidly making a habit of this kind of result. (Baring mechanical gremlins with the Maca)

I would love to see Carlos in one of the top three team's cars, but I don't see a seat opening up there for him till 2021 at the earliest, if then. Maybe the best he can hope for in the foreseeable future is a major resurgence of McLaren. Would be great to see the big three become the big four when McLaren gets Merc power in 2021. Carlos and Lando would be great additions to any podium!!! :thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:07 pm 
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i've said this a few times, but I don't think Sianz is that good. There is no doubt he has been solid, but Norris has looked better in qualifying and has had so much bad luck in the races. i think they ahven't been comparable on race day over half the time now. I also think that the McLaren is a fair bit better than the rest of the field and closer to Red Bull than Sainz is making it look. I think that if Verstappen was driving that car, he would be challenging Red Bull drivers in it actually.

Sainz IMO is pretty quick, but doesn't have very good spacial awareness and is not a great racer. A year or two ago when he was in a team closer to more compettitors, he had many clumsy moments. In 2017, he caused more retirements than any other driver, despite all the criticism drivers like Ericsson, Stroll, Grosjean and Kvyat were getting. IMO, Sainz is quite possibly looking a lot better because he has probably been about the least challenged driver of the year. He's pretty lonely out there on race day.


I can't take away the fact that he's been really solid, but he hasn't done much special for how good i think the car is. He just been good. When involved in more racing, i feel he will start to look not that special again and have more incidents.

Sorry to say this for those who think he's doing great. But I think it is more the car and his team mates bad luck that is making him look so good.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:08 pm 
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Personally I think he's been solid but not great. The car is faster than we expected and that flatters a driver. If he was getting matched for pace by a rookie and driving for a Racing Point or a Haas he would be getting panned.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:23 pm 
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It is very unlikely that Sainz has found a tonne of speed. It is more likely that he is still a midfield type driver and remember he is only marginally beating an unknown in Norris, (it's not like it's Alonso in the other McLaren that Sainz is beating!)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:37 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It is very unlikely that Sainz has found a tonne of speed. It is more likely that he is still a midfield type driver and remember he is only marginally beating an unknown in Norris, (it's not like it's Alonso in the other McLaren that Sainz is beating!)


That is the million dollar question.
Is Sainz in career best form, or is the McLaren better than we think? (Remembering that Hulk and Max beat Sainz)

Maybe by extension, Norris isn’t as good as we think too...

I would love to see Max or Dan in the McLaren. Could they have achieved a podium? Maybe.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:44 pm 
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Randine wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It is very unlikely that Sainz has found a tonne of speed. It is more likely that he is still a midfield type driver and remember he is only marginally beating an unknown in Norris, (it's not like it's Alonso in the other McLaren that Sainz is beating!)


That is the million dollar question.
Is Sainz in career best form, or is the McLaren better than we think? (Remembering that Hulk and Max beat Sainz)

Maybe by extension, Norris isn’t as good as we think too...

I would love to see Max or Dan in the McLaren. Could they have achieved a podium? Maybe.


There is no maybe about it, Norris is not good. He's likely a bit better than Vandoorne but is not top level and will never challenge for WDC's. He's just treading water making up the numbers for the next few years until his 'Hulkenberg' moment where he suddenly finds himself out of a drive.

Sainz has not just randomly found pace, does this ever happen to experienced drivers or are they stuck in their ways? Far more often than not they are stuck in their ways.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:53 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
There is no maybe about it, Norris is not good.

That's a pretty authoritative statement considering you can't possibly know that for certain.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:39 am 
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As usual F1 fans forumers generally tend to converge to a consensus even tough it is a cr*p one such as in Sainz's case.

Sainz's Renault was hugely misleading as he was not happy about his situation(he said that himself) and failed to score BIG (also because of lack of reliability or misunderstanding of the car) when the car was competitive at the beginning of the year like Hulkenberg.

I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Carlos is no Hulkenberg and will take his first podium at the very first occasion.

He is the best starter in today's grid, consistent in the race, and very good in the rain. People will be shocked the day he will put his hands on a Top car. Mark my words. 😉

I was even more surprised to learn that McLaren were the first to be impressed by Sainz's speed and concistency(did you forget the beating he gave to Kvyat??).
It seems that F1 teams are as bad as the average F1 fan who bases his impression on what is shown by the TV director and on what the most vocal forum members or Crofty or Brundle say. The only guy(not really, because I know of another WDC 😉) in the entire paddock who rated Sainz at the Top is Franz Tost.

And the more I see of Ricciardo vs Hulkenberg the more I am convinced he will kick some serious a*s when given the right tools. RIC is always there about with HUL in the race, unlike SAI who when he was fast he was really fast and was leaving HUL in his wake.

I said years ago(the only one foolish enough) that he will put a much better fight against Verstappen than Ricciardo but for some reason in F1 reputation or hype are more important than actual talent and results.

Norris is doing very well, the problem is Sainz who is underrated!!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:13 am 
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No doubt the McLaren has improved tonnes this year. It's easily the best car after the top 3. Imagine how good the leap would be when McLaren gets Mercedes engines. Sainz is doing a good job, similar to what Perez was doing in 2016 & 2017.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:29 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Exactly, I think this is the biggest merit Sainz has as of date. Although he lost to Verstappen in points, pace-wise he was very close to Verstappen, probably even closer than Ricciardo. Purely on that, I would rate Sainz higher than just another average midfield driver as some here are saying. Still unproven whether he can be considered a top driver but I would say he definitely has potential.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:48 am 
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froze wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Exactly, I think this is the biggest merit Sainz has as of date. Although he lost to Verstappen in points, pace-wise he was very close to Verstappen, probably even closer than Ricciardo. Purely on that, I would rate Sainz higher than just another average midfield driver as some here are saying. Still unproven whether he can be considered a top driver but I would say he definitely has potential.


It's hard to know. Verstappen was in only his second year of racing cars. Sainz was a lot more experienced. I would guess Sainz is about Hulkenberg level. They were about even as team mates by the end of last year. I would put Hulk, Perez, Sainz and Bottas in a group together. Maybe with Perez slightly above the rest.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:56 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
froze wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Exactly, I think this is the biggest merit Sainz has as of date. Although he lost to Verstappen in points, pace-wise he was very close to Verstappen, probably even closer than Ricciardo. Purely on that, I would rate Sainz higher than just another average midfield driver as some here are saying. Still unproven whether he can be considered a top driver but I would say he definitely has potential.


It's hard to know. Verstappen was in only his second year of racing cars. Sainz was a lot more experienced. I would guess Sainz is about Hulkenberg level. They were about even as team mates by the end of last year. I would put Hulk, Perez, Sainz and Bottas in a group together. Maybe with Perez slightly above the rest.


That's Ricciardo 😉


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:00 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
froze wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Exactly, I think this is the biggest merit Sainz has as of date. Although he lost to Verstappen in points, pace-wise he was very close to Verstappen, probably even closer than Ricciardo. Purely on that, I would rate Sainz higher than just another average midfield driver as some here are saying. Still unproven whether he can be considered a top driver but I would say he definitely has potential.


It's hard to know. Verstappen was in only his second year of racing cars. Sainz was a lot more experienced. I would guess Sainz is about Hulkenberg level. They were about even as team mates by the end of last year. I would put Hulk, Perez, Sainz and Bottas in a group together. Maybe with Perez slightly above the rest.


That's Ricciardo 😉


I'm confused.. Hulkenberg and Sainz were team mates last year.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:36 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
froze wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I followed all the FP sessions when Sainz and Verstappen were both in ToroRosso and there was nothing between them.

Exactly, I think this is the biggest merit Sainz has as of date. Although he lost to Verstappen in points, pace-wise he was very close to Verstappen, probably even closer than Ricciardo. Purely on that, I would rate Sainz higher than just another average midfield driver as some here are saying. Still unproven whether he can be considered a top driver but I would say he definitely has potential.


It's hard to know. Verstappen was in only his second year of racing cars. Sainz was a lot more experienced. I would guess Sainz is about Hulkenberg level. They were about even as team mates by the end of last year. I would put Hulk, Perez, Sainz and Bottas in a group together. Maybe with Perez slightly above the rest.


That's Ricciardo 😉


I'm confused.. Hulkenberg and Sainz were team mates last year.


You are right.. I was thinking about this year and how HUL and RIC are the most closely matched pairing in the grid.


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