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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:45 am 
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https://twitter.com/F1/status/1183316240326184960

Ricciardo up to P6, Leclerc P7


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:48 am 
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I think Leclerc and Ferrari are lucky the 10sec and 25,000 fine isn't a harsher penalty.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:55 am 
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Leclerc has been extremely fortunate a few times of late to avoid time penalties for some of his incidents. This has been a long time coming and will hopefully calm him down a bit.

Some will say it should have been harsher, but at least action has been taken. Although he might get that position back if Racing Point's protest about the legality of the Renault bears fruit.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:06 am 
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5 seconds for taking someone out the race...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:09 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
5 seconds for taking someone out the race...


......and a further 10 seconds for being an idiot.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:11 am 
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I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:14 am 
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When was the last time a driver was penalised for a first lap incident, after the race?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:16 am 
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So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

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Last edited by Jezza13 on Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:16 am 
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Too lenient.

His wing could have caused a major accident had Hamilton been a little closer.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:16 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:24 am 
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Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:30 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.


It’s quite rare for drivers to continue with dangling bodywork. Leclercs end plate was flapping around for over a lap. Causing sparks as it bottomed out on the straights.

Ironically, by the time Leclerc pitted he was actually safe to continue as it had broken off. If it had broken off during lap 1 he likely would have been ok to continue.

I think this incident was especially dangerous because it was in front of the front tyre and could have gone under it and ended in massive accident.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:32 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.

Drivers tend to continue to get back to the pits for repairs not stay out two extra laps after being told to pit. The FIA had been told Leclerc was coming in straight away for repairs so probably why they didn’t give the black and orange flag. It seemed Leclerc disobeyed the team and stayed out. Like we saw Hamilton was lucky the debris didn’t hit his helmet but some of the debris got into Norris’ wheel and caused the brake temps to soar. Which pretty much ended his race. I actually think it’s a lenient penalty for Leclerc and won’t teach him anything.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14655 ... amaged-car


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:44 am 
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It reminds me of this one - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBIWvuFyNWs


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:47 am 
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Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.


It’s quite rare for drivers to continue with dangling bodywork. Leclercs end plate was flapping around for over a lap. Causing sparks as it bottomed out on the straights.

Ironically, by the time Leclerc pitted he was actually safe to continue as it had broken off. If it had broken off during lap 1 he likely would have been ok to continue.

I think this incident was especially dangerous because it was in front of the front tyre and could have gone under it and ended in massive accident.


It's rare but I don't recall it being penalised when it has happened. A long time ago I admit but the example that springs to mind is Kimi driving half the race Magny Cours 2008 with a big piece of exhaust flailing around.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:52 am 
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Also a long time ago, Schumacher was told to pit at Australia 2003 when his barge board was flapping around.

I can’t recall a recent example but it probably occurs behind the scenes. I.e. Leclerc was told to pit today, that’s what usually occurs and we never hear of it.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:54 am 
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Pest44 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.

Drivers tend to continue to get back to the pits for repairs not stay out two extra laps after being told to pit. The FIA had been told Leclerc was coming in straight away for repairs so probably why they didn’t give the black and orange flag. It seemed Leclerc disobeyed the team and stayed out. Like we saw Hamilton was lucky the debris didn’t hit his helmet but some of the debris got into Norris’ wheel and caused the brake temps to soar. Which pretty much ended his race. I actually think it’s a lenient penalty for Leclerc and won’t teach him anything.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14655 ... amaged-car


Yea you can see on this video at 1:01. A slow motion replay of leclerc losing part of his car and it hitting Hamilton's mirror. Leclerc only a bit later loses his own mirror too. Damaging Hamilton's mirror, wrecking his own car, wrecking Norris's race, endangering loads of other cars and them having to take evasive action. 10 second penalty for this is very little indeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:02 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.

Drivers tend to continue to get back to the pits for repairs not stay out two extra laps after being told to pit. The FIA had been told Leclerc was coming in straight away for repairs so probably why they didn’t give the black and orange flag. It seemed Leclerc disobeyed the team and stayed out. Like we saw Hamilton was lucky the debris didn’t hit his helmet but some of the debris got into Norris’ wheel and caused the brake temps to soar. Which pretty much ended his race. I actually think it’s a lenient penalty for Leclerc and won’t teach him anything.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14655 ... amaged-car


Yea you can see on this video at 1:01. A slow motion replay of leclerc losing part of his car and it hitting Hamilton's mirror. Leclerc only a bit later loses his own mirror too. Damaging Hamilton's mirror, wrecking his own car, wrecking Norris's race, endangering loads of other cars and them having to take evasive action. 10 second penalty for this is very little indeed.

I’m all for more lenient penalties when it comes to racing but this was just idiotic from Leclerc. The FIA have set a low bar. I’ve not been that impressed by Masi so far.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:12 am 
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Pest44 wrote:
I’m all for more lenient penalties when it comes to racing but this was just idiotic from Leclerc. The FIA have set a low bar. I’ve not been that impressed by Masi so far.


Same here. From what I can see Massi's let them race ethos is more a case of him sitting on the fence and hoping everything turns out OK.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:31 am 
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Leclerc may be getting his position back if Racing Point's protest against Renault are successful and the drivers get penalised!

https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/ren ... t-protest/


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 11:36 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
I’m all for more lenient penalties when it comes to racing but this was just idiotic from Leclerc. The FIA have set a low bar. I’ve not been that impressed by Masi so far.


Same here. From what I can see Massi's let them race ethos is more a case of him sitting on the fence and hoping everything turns out OK.

Exactly and it’ll come to bite him. Why wasn’t Leclerc penalised straight away for the Verstappen incident? It was clearly his fault. There was no need for it to be investigated after the race


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:18 pm 
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Pest44 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
I’m all for more lenient penalties when it comes to racing but this was just idiotic from Leclerc. The FIA have set a low bar. I’ve not been that impressed by Masi so far.


Same here. From what I can see Massi's let them race ethos is more a case of him sitting on the fence and hoping everything turns out OK.

Exactly and it’ll come to bite him. Why wasn’t Leclerc penalised straight away for the Verstappen incident? It was clearly his fault. There was no need for it to be investigated after the race


Leclerc wasn't penalized straight away simply because it looks like race control weren't investigating the incident.

Go to 1:03 (Lap 4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Orp6T8uU2k

For some reason they changed their mind. I'd like to find out why.

I agree it shouldn't have taken until 3 hrs after the end of the race to come up with a result. That's ridiculous.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:45 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

That's the $6M question, maybe they did a quick fan poll? (sarcasm on)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:54 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
I’m all for more lenient penalties when it comes to racing but this was just idiotic from Leclerc. The FIA have set a low bar. I’ve not been that impressed by Masi so far.


Same here. From what I can see Massi's let them race ethos is more a case of him sitting on the fence and hoping everything turns out OK.

This all changed post Canada after the fans protested, now they're too scared to punish certain teams/drivers and then this has to filter down to other drivers, I mean how could they penalise Albon for ramming Norris off the track when they were going to deal with a more serious incident with Leclerc and Verstappen after the race.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:56 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

That's the $6M question, maybe they did a quick fan poll? (sarcasm on)


Maybe they got a visit from a representative of a race team on behalf of the circuit owners.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:58 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

That's the $6M question, maybe they did a quick fan poll? (sarcasm on)


Maybe they got a visit from a representative of a race team on behalf of the circuit owners.


I doubt it. How does Leclerc getting a penalty for help Honda. I don't think anyone would argue the penalty wasn't deserved either.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:59 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

That's the $6M question, maybe they did a quick fan poll? (sarcasm on)


Maybe they got a visit from a representative of a race team on behalf of the circuit owners.

I think that it shows that certain factors come into play when deciding such things other that hard and fast rules and decisions.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

That's the $6M question, maybe they did a quick fan poll? (sarcasm on)


Maybe they got a visit from a representative of a race team on behalf of the circuit owners.


I doubt it. How does Leclerc getting a penalty for help Honda. I don't think anyone would argue the penalty wasn't deserved either.

Nominally it should have been a slam dunk penalty, there's other things in play here, it's not dissimilar to when Kimi hit Hamilton and spun him around on the opening lap of Silverstone last year, a penalty was issued within a few laps I believe?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:19 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I actually think the 10 second bit is a really inconsistent penalty. We have seen drivers continue with damaged cars for years and I can't recall anyone getting penalised for it.


His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.

Drivers tend to continue to get back to the pits for repairs not stay out two extra laps after being told to pit. The FIA had been told Leclerc was coming in straight away for repairs so probably why they didn’t give the black and orange flag. It seemed Leclerc disobeyed the team and stayed out. Like we saw Hamilton was lucky the debris didn’t hit his helmet but some of the debris got into Norris’ wheel and caused the brake temps to soar. Which pretty much ended his race. I actually think it’s a lenient penalty for Leclerc and won’t teach him anything.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14655 ... amaged-car


Yea you can see on this video at 1:01. A slow motion replay of leclerc losing part of his car and it hitting Hamilton's mirror. Leclerc only a bit later loses his own mirror too. Damaging Hamilton's mirror, wrecking his own car, wrecking Norris's race, endangering loads of other cars and them having to take evasive action. 10 second penalty for this is very little indeed.



:thumbup: :nod:

The fact that Leclerc's wing took off Hamilton's mirror and came so close to Lewis' head, is pretty damning against Leclerc and Ferrari's behavior.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
So originally the FIA said there was no investigation necessary into the Leclerc / Verstappen incident. They then decided there was.

Any word on why they changed their mind?

That's the $6M question, maybe they did a quick fan poll? (sarcasm on)

A few years back they would only investigate incident if demanded by some team, maybe in this case Red Bull just were a bit slow to file a complaint against Leclerc?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 1:59 pm 
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I was thinking about the two parts of this and from the perspective of the penalty being more severe for continuing with a car that was clearly damaged than for causing a collision, it did make sense. 5 seconds for effectively ending Verstappen’s race seemed lenient when looking at it in isolation, but then I wondered, by postponing the investigation until after the race, had they closed the door on awarding anything more severe (short of a disqualification?) So no chance of the heavier stop-go post race adding more time than the standard time penalty?

Looking at the decision documents, Charles has also been given 2 superlicence penalty points for the collision. Ferrari were fined €25,000 for the unsafe condition of the car. On reflection I think it’s pretty fair.

Here are the documents in case anyone wants to read them:

https://www.fia.com/file/101740/download/29480

https://www.fia.com/file/101742/download/29482


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 3:36 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
5 seconds for taking someone out the race...


usually 1st lap incident penalties are more lenient


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:

His debris nearly struck Hamilton on the helmet, it also damaged Hamiltons cars sidepod wings.

Loose bodywork, you usually aren’t allowed to continue. That was the worst case of it I can remember, he continued for 2 laps after Ferrari were told to pit him. Fair penalty for me.


When have we seen this? Drivers tend to keep going.

Drivers tend to continue to get back to the pits for repairs not stay out two extra laps after being told to pit. The FIA had been told Leclerc was coming in straight away for repairs so probably why they didn’t give the black and orange flag. It seemed Leclerc disobeyed the team and stayed out. Like we saw Hamilton was lucky the debris didn’t hit his helmet but some of the debris got into Norris’ wheel and caused the brake temps to soar. Which pretty much ended his race. I actually think it’s a lenient penalty for Leclerc and won’t teach him anything.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14655 ... amaged-car


Yea you can see on this video at 1:01. A slow motion replay of leclerc losing part of his car and it hitting Hamilton's mirror. Leclerc only a bit later loses his own mirror too. Damaging Hamilton's mirror, wrecking his own car, wrecking Norris's race, endangering loads of other cars and them having to take evasive action. 10 second penalty for this is very little indeed.



:thumbup: :nod:

The fact that Leclerc's wing took off Hamilton's mirror and came so close to Lewis' head, is pretty damning against Leclerc and Ferrari's behavior.


He got off very lightly, to be honest, his actions are indefensible. He's lucky... I like Leclerc but his driving and brain failed today & he should have ended up with 3 points and maybe been black flagged.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Like I mentioned in another thread; I think Charles felt that he got the short end of things in Austria when Max kind of shoved him off the track to take the win. Ever since then, Charles has been overly aggressive to the point of often compromising other drivers. I felt that some of his defensive moves at races like Silverstone (against Max) and Monza (against Lewis) were over the line. He forced the other drivers off the road and forced them to avoid collisions. I think it's high time he got a slap on the wrist for this type of driving.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
I’m all for more lenient penalties when it comes to racing but this was just idiotic from Leclerc. The FIA have set a low bar. I’ve not been that impressed by Masi so far.


Same here. From what I can see Massi's let them race ethos is more a case of him sitting on the fence and hoping everything turns out OK.

This all changed post Canada after the fans protested, now they're too scared to punish certain teams/drivers and then this has to filter down to other drivers, I mean how could they penalise Albon for ramming Norris off the track when they were going to deal with a more serious incident with Leclerc and Verstappen after the race.


Did Albon receive any penalty?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:53 pm 
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While I agree with the penalties for Leclerc today, it was hilarious how Verstappen whined for giving him one. I mean, Verstappen who always advocates hard racing when he is on the giving side - but he instantly starts to whine when he is on the receiving end .... Verstappen is the main reason that driving like this is deemed to be acceptable nowadays by some. And just some races ago he won Austria that way ... and kept his win ...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 6:26 pm 
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Should have been an immediate 10 second stop/go for not pitting with that damage. We've seen from the Massa/Hungary incident just how dangerous loose bits flying off cars can be and the halo offers no protection from that. The FIA need to crack down on this; any damage and you box immediately. Not carry on for a few laps and see if it just falls off and sorts itself. The worst case scenario could be a repeat of either the Ratzenberger or Wilson fatal accidents.

Probably a 10 second time penalty for the Max incident at the start, although after Austria I felt there was a certain element of karma with Max being taken out. Today was worse but Austria was wrong too.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Is there any material difference between what happened between Max and Charles today as what happened in Austria?

The only difference I can see is that in Japan it was lap 1 where the inside car forces the outside car off the track, and some people like to argue that stewards are more lenient with lap 1 collisions. Yet the lap 1 collision got punished and Austria did not.

Very inconsistent stewarding again. I am glad they penalised this one today, but I suspect there will be more future incidents similar to today that will go unpunished.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:33 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Like I mentioned in another thread; I think Charles felt that he got the short end of things in Austria when Max kind of shoved him off the track to take the win. Ever since then, Charles has been overly aggressive to the point of often compromising other drivers. I felt that some of his defensive moves at races like Silverstone (against Max) and Monza (against Lewis) were over the line. He forced the other drivers off the road and forced them to avoid collisions. I think it's high time he got a slap on the wrist for this type of driving.


He chopped Bottas in Hungary as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:32 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
While I agree with the penalties for Leclerc today, it was hilarious how Verstappen whined for giving him one. I mean, Verstappen who always advocates hard racing when he is on the giving side - but he instantly starts to whine when he is on the receiving end .... Verstappen is the main reason that driving like this is deemed to be acceptable nowadays by some. And just some races ago he won Austria that way ... and kept his win ...


Max contacted Rosberg's car and forced him off the track at corner 1 in Mexico 2016.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI-nMx-gnTU

No penalty.


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