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PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Well, our opinion on Russell's potential clearly differ. Time will tell.

I definitely saw and see more potential in Leclerc than in him or Vandoorne. Same with Verstappen, Norris, and Ocon. Will they all live up to their talent? Again, time will tell ...

Just to be very clear: I never said that Russell or Vandoorne are not good drivers or not F1 material. They clearly are IMO.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:38 am 
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Russell is on a very short list, GP2/F2 rookies that won the title. Hamilton, Hulkernberg (had 4 races in GP2 asia beforehand), Leclerc, Russell and Rosberg but that was the first season so it doesn't really count. Its a strong list.

The drivers that took 2+ seasons to win it have always looked ordinary to me. Gasly, Grosjean, Maldonado, Palmer.

Glock and Van Doorne took 2 seasons exactly. If you don't win a feature race or at least get a few strong podiums in your rookie year, then you won't be anything special in F1.

Van Doorne is the biggest anomaly of GP2 drivers though, he fought for the title in his rookie and was beaten by Palmer who at the time he was crowned champion had not even won a feature race. Everything pointed toward him going on to be very good. Who knows what he could have achieved but he was up against Alonso.

It would be interesting to see a list of GP2/F2 drivers that won at least 2 features races in their rookie season and how good they looked once they made F1.

In recent times that list loosk like;
Russell
Leclerc
Giovinazzi
Vandoorne


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Why wouldn't the first season count?

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Russell is on a very short list, GP2/F2 rookies that won the title. Hamilton, Hulkernberg (had 4 races in GP2 asia beforehand), Leclerc, Russell and Rosberg but that was the first season so it doesn't really count. Its a strong list.

The drivers that took 2+ seasons to win it have always looked ordinary to me. Gasly, Grosjean, Maldonado, Palmer.

Glock and Van Doorne took 2 seasons exactly. If you don't win a feature race or at least get a few strong podiums in your rookie year, then you won't be anything special in F1.

Van Doorne is the biggest anomaly of GP2 drivers though, he fought for the title in his rookie and was beaten by Palmer who at the time he was crowned champion had not even won a feature race. Everything pointed toward him going on to be very good. Who knows what he could have achieved but he was up against Alonso.

It would be interesting to see a list of GP2/F2 drivers that won at least 2 features races in their rookie season and how good they looked once they made F1.

In recent times that list loosk like;
Russell
Leclerc
Giovinazzi
Vandoorne


If you are right, it does not look good for Mick Schumacher then ( weil, one more race weekend to come, though) ...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:46 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Why wouldn't the first season count?

Because every single driver in the field was in their first year. It's like saying that Giuseppe Farina won the F1 WDC in his rookie year back in 1950...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 9:30 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Why wouldn't the first season count?

Because every single driver in the field was in their first year. It's like saying that Giuseppe Farina won the F1 WDC in his rookie year back in 1950...

Yes it was a truly level playing field. Which Rosberg won and eventually won the f1 championship as well, it's not like he sticks out or anything.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:07 am 
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Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Why wouldn't the first season count?

Because every single driver in the field was in their first year. It's like saying that Giuseppe Farina won the F1 WDC in his rookie year back in 1950...

Yes it was a truly level playing field. Which Rosberg won and eventually won the f1 championship as well, it's not like he sticks out or anything.


Erm, yes it definitely does. Rosberg didn't have to compete against all the things that make winning F2/GP2 in your debut season especially difficult. He was in the same boat as everyone else. Unlike all the drivers who have won it in their debut seasons since.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:03 am 
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One think I'll say about max at the moment is he should stop criticising every driver and red bull in the media. Everytime I check Google news feed Verstappen is slagging off someone else. Getting quite tiring, we get it lad, you think you are god's gift now give it a rest.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:32 am 
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So did he get his watch back?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:11 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Why wouldn't the first season count?

Because every single driver in the field was in their first year. It's like saying that Giuseppe Farina won the F1 WDC in his rookie year back in 1950...

Yes it was a truly level playing field. Which Rosberg won and eventually won the f1 championship as well, it's not like he sticks out or anything.


Erm, yes it definitely does. Rosberg didn't have to compete against all the things that make winning F2/GP2 in your debut season especially difficult. He was in the same boat as everyone else. Unlike all the drivers who have won it in their debut seasons since.

Ok yes fair point.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:37 am 
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I said Nico didn’t count as he didn’t fight against any drivers with experience which was my entire point, experience in GP2 is huge. It’s the exact same car, a year of learning the tracks, the car, the team etc. It’s also hard to learn tracks in the rookie year as they don’t have much practise track time or testing.

We have had some weak champions win it in there 3rd year such as Palmer who’s best finish was 11th in his rookie year. These “experienced” champions rarely make F1, the teams know they aren’t great drivers. Palmer is probably the worst driver to come to F1 in a long time.

Nelson Piquet was 8th in 2005 (first year of GP2) but battled Hamilton for the title in 2006 for example. The year Hamilton won it in his rookie year, the rest of the top 10 were in there 2nd season.

This is why I think both Norris and Russell are very impressive, the F2 field is stacked with veterans these days. Albon in comparison looked decent in his first year - lots of 4-6th finishes and in his second year improved, by the second half of his second season he was winning feature races and usually on the podium but my feeling is that he isn’t quite at the Norris or Russell level.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:23 pm 
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Yet another bad race (and quali) by Verstappen. And he had a chance at victory. It's all gone pear-shaped after the summer break. He's making Vettel good by how terrible he is right now. The man needs to sort himself out. He clearly had the pace this weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:56 pm 
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He needs to stop watching his back and look where he's going


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:38 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
He needs to stop watching his back and look where he's going


:lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:49 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Yet another bad race (and quali) by Verstappen. And he had a chance at victory. It's all gone pear-shaped after the summer break. He's making Vettel good by how terrible he is right now. The man needs to sort himself out. He clearly had the pace this weekend.



I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Yet another bad race (and quali) by Verstappen. And he had a chance at victory. It's all gone pear-shaped after the summer break. He's making Vettel good by how terrible he is right now. The man needs to sort himself out. He clearly had the pace this weekend.



I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.

I think you will find that quite a few people blame Hamilton for the first corner incident, in particular his best mate (not), di Resta and also the normally good Palmer, neither acknowledged the initial, contact made by Verstappen, and these are British pundits.

As an overview I believe most people just see it as a racing incident likewise with the Bottas incident it's seen more as high risk in a corner were not many people attempt an overtake.

Regarding the Vettel incident I flagged that up but got few takers, I think as an overview with Verstappen the major mistake was in qualifying and the admittance of guilt thinking that the penalty would be merely losing the one lap.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Yet another bad race (and quali) by Verstappen. And he had a chance at victory. It's all gone pear-shaped after the summer break. He's making Vettel good by how terrible he is right now. The man needs to sort himself out. He clearly had the pace this weekend.



I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.

I think you will find that quite a few people blame Hamilton for the first corner incident, in particular his best mate (not), di Resta and also the normally good Palmer, neither acknowledged the initial, contact made by Verstappen, and these are British pundits.

As an overview I believe most people just see it as a racing incident likewise with the Bottas incident it's seen more as high risk in a corner were not many people attempt an overtake.

Regarding the Vettel incident I flagged that up but got few takers, I think as an overview with Verstappen the major mistake was in qualifying and the admittance of guilt thinking that the penalty would be merely losing the one lap.
I'm still as critical as ever about fiesty Max Verstappen, but I have to say that he was not responsible for the corner 1/2 little incident between him and Hamilton. Both had to catch a rear end slide and there wasn't much room to begin with. If being ahead at the apex counts for something (and I'm still not clear on where the rules are supposed to say so), then Max even had the right to run Hamilton off the road. Having said that, I can't blame Hamilton either, as his little slide was forced on him by Max.
As for Max's overtake on Bottas, that was optimistic, but not overoptimistic. A touch more early awareness on the part of Bottas, and we would only have spoken of a great overtake.

Pokerman is right, Max's real mistake was committed on Saturday. Mikeyg is also right, I feel Max has been criticised too harshly these last few races. His Belgian side must be taking over, there is hope for him yet. ;)

Even before they reached turn 1, I felt that Vettel wasn't so much pushing Hamilton off the track, than making sure he didn't lose even the least little bit of slipstream from Leclerc's car. Technical rule makers must look at this very seriously with an eye on 2021. Just as sporting rule makers must look at when somebody is actually being pushed off the track and whether that is or isn't allowed.

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Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:38 pm 
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I'm glad there are still some people who can judge these Mexico incidents without bias.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Yet another bad race (and quali) by Verstappen. And he had a chance at victory. It's all gone pear-shaped after the summer break. He's making Vettel good by how terrible he is right now. The man needs to sort himself out. He clearly had the pace this weekend.



I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.

I think you will find that quite a few people blame Hamilton for the first corner incident, in particular his best mate (not), di Resta and also the normally good Palmer, neither acknowledged the initial, contact made by Verstappen, and these are British pundits.

As an overview I believe most people just see it as a racing incident likewise with the Bottas incident it's seen more as high risk in a corner were not many people attempt an overtake.

Regarding the Vettel incident I flagged that up but got few takers, I think as an overview with Verstappen the major mistake was in qualifying and the admittance of guilt thinking that the penalty would be merely losing the one lap.
I'm still as critical as ever about fiesty Max Verstappen, but I have to say that he was not responsible for the corner 1/2 little incident between him and Hamilton. Both had to catch a rear end slide and there wasn't much room to begin with. If being ahead at the apex counts for something (and I'm still not clear on where the rules are supposed to say so), then Max even had the right to run Hamilton off the road. Having said that, I can't blame Hamilton either, as his little slide was forced on him by Max.
As for Max's overtake on Bottas, that was optimistic, but not overoptimistic. A touch more early awareness on the part of Bottas, and we would only have spoken of a great overtake.

Pokerman is right, Max's real mistake was committed on Saturday. Mikeyg is also right, I feel Max has been criticised too harshly these last few races. His Belgian side must be taking over, there is hope for him yet. ;)

Even before they reached turn 1, I felt that Vettel wasn't so much pushing Hamilton off the track, than making sure he didn't lose even the least little bit of slipstream from Leclerc's car. Technical rule makers must look at this very seriously with an eye on 2021. Just as sporting rule makers must look at when somebody is actually being pushed off the track and whether that is or isn't allowed.

I've seen Vettel's onboard he looks in his left hand mirror I believe twice and given that he has full view of his rear tyre he could see Hamilton hence why probably he did it gradually, the notion that he was fully focused on getting the slipstream from Leclerc can be put to bed i think.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:25 pm 
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At least Verstappen has done Vettel a favour, all the talk is about Verstappen who actually didn't do much wrong in the race and what Vettel did has been brushed under the carpet in comparison. Doesn't really help Hamilton and Vettel decide to be best mates for the press conference and have a dig at Verstappen. Verstappen has been the 2nd best driver this year and has been good for some time, was purely unlucky in Mexico on race day and it will hurt him as he should have won the race.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:27 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
At least Verstappen has done Vettel a favour, all the talk is about Verstappen who actually didn't do much wrong in the race and what Vettel did has been brushed under the carpet in comparison. Doesn't really help Hamilton and Vettel decide to be best mates for the press conference and have a dig at Verstappen. Verstappen has been the 2nd best driver this year and has been good for some time, was purely unlucky in Mexico on race day and it will hurt him as he should have won the race.


TBH I think that just shows Hamilton is way more concerned about the threat from Verstappen than Vettel.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Yet another bad race (and quali) by Verstappen. And he had a chance at victory. It's all gone pear-shaped after the summer break. He's making Vettel good by how terrible he is right now. The man needs to sort himself out. He clearly had the pace this weekend.



I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.

I think you will find that quite a few people blame Hamilton for the first corner incident, in particular his best mate (not), di Resta and also the normally good Palmer, neither acknowledged the initial, contact made by Verstappen, and these are British pundits.

As an overview I believe most people just see it as a racing incident likewise with the Bottas incident it's seen more as high risk in a corner were not many people attempt an overtake.

Regarding the Vettel incident I flagged that up but got few takers, I think as an overview with Verstappen the major mistake was in qualifying and the admittance of guilt thinking that the penalty would be merely losing the one lap.
I'm still as critical as ever about fiesty Max Verstappen, but I have to say that he was not responsible for the corner 1/2 little incident between him and Hamilton. Both had to catch a rear end slide and there wasn't much room to begin with. If being ahead at the apex counts for something (and I'm still not clear on where the rules are supposed to say so), then Max even had the right to run Hamilton off the road. Having said that, I can't blame Hamilton either, as his little slide was forced on him by Max.
As for Max's overtake on Bottas, that was optimistic, but not overoptimistic. A touch more early awareness on the part of Bottas, and we would only have spoken of a great overtake.

Pokerman is right, Max's real mistake was committed on Saturday. Mikeyg is also right, I feel Max has been criticised too harshly these last few races. His Belgian side must be taking over, there is hope for him yet. ;)

Even before they reached turn 1, I felt that Vettel wasn't so much pushing Hamilton off the track, than making sure he didn't lose even the least little bit of slipstream from Leclerc's car. Technical rule makers must look at this very seriously with an eye on 2021. Just as sporting rule makers must look at when somebody is actually being pushed off the track and whether that is or isn't allowed.

I've seen Vettel's onboard he looks in his left hand mirror I believe twice and given that he has full view of his rear tyre he could see Hamilton hence why probably he did it gradually, the notion that he was fully focused on getting the slipstream from Leclerc can be put to bed i think.
It's clear from Hamilton's on-board also that Vettel is looking for him. But I didn't say, nor mean, that Vettel's only focus was on Hamilton. But it was primarily on slipstreaming, I'm fairly certain.

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Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:


I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.

I think you will find that quite a few people blame Hamilton for the first corner incident, in particular his best mate (not), di Resta and also the normally good Palmer, neither acknowledged the initial, contact made by Verstappen, and these are British pundits.

As an overview I believe most people just see it as a racing incident likewise with the Bottas incident it's seen more as high risk in a corner were not many people attempt an overtake.

Regarding the Vettel incident I flagged that up but got few takers, I think as an overview with Verstappen the major mistake was in qualifying and the admittance of guilt thinking that the penalty would be merely losing the one lap.
I'm still as critical as ever about fiesty Max Verstappen, but I have to say that he was not responsible for the corner 1/2 little incident between him and Hamilton. Both had to catch a rear end slide and there wasn't much room to begin with. If being ahead at the apex counts for something (and I'm still not clear on where the rules are supposed to say so), then Max even had the right to run Hamilton off the road. Having said that, I can't blame Hamilton either, as his little slide was forced on him by Max.
As for Max's overtake on Bottas, that was optimistic, but not overoptimistic. A touch more early awareness on the part of Bottas, and we would only have spoken of a great overtake.

Pokerman is right, Max's real mistake was committed on Saturday. Mikeyg is also right, I feel Max has been criticised too harshly these last few races. His Belgian side must be taking over, there is hope for him yet. ;)

Even before they reached turn 1, I felt that Vettel wasn't so much pushing Hamilton off the track, than making sure he didn't lose even the least little bit of slipstream from Leclerc's car. Technical rule makers must look at this very seriously with an eye on 2021. Just as sporting rule makers must look at when somebody is actually being pushed off the track and whether that is or isn't allowed.

I've seen Vettel's onboard he looks in his left hand mirror I believe twice and given that he has full view of his rear tyre he could see Hamilton hence why probably he did it gradually, the notion that he was fully focused on getting the slipstream from Leclerc can be put to bed i think.
It's clear from Hamilton's on-board also that Vettel is looking for him. But I didn't say, nor mean, that Vettel's only focus was on Hamilton. But it was primarily on slipstreaming, I'm fairly certain.


I'm sure Vettel had a reason for wanting to take that line but so what? Hamilton was already there.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:32 am 
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1 race for Hamilton fighting a bit to the back, and suddenly the drama starts. Because he started in front for the last million years of course he will complain about not being enough space, cause it's uncharted teritory for him.

At the same time, Verstappen is Verstappen. I don't think he went further than he has in the past.

I just think that this time he had to deal with the "wrong" driver. And Hamilton is Hamilton, even with 6 titles under his belt, he will still complain and hold resentments, even towards a dog, if he'd step in his poo.

It's just his way of being, doesn't mean he's a bad person. The same with Verstappen, he will not accept that somebody else might be right from time to time.

It's funny, these traits are admired if you win, and are not accepted if you lose. If you win you're just passionate, if you are losing, you're just a sore loser. Even if your behaviour is identical, It's all down to circumstances.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 9:41 am 
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^ Interesting observation. I recall an Olympic rowing champion stating that his desire to win was such that, if he had finished second, he would have thrown his silver medal away. In the context of winning that demonstrates the desire to settle for being the best. Has he actually not won (and thrown away any said medal) he'd most likely be seen in quite a different light!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I find myself defending Verstappen an awful lot recently but in my defence I've been in the same situation with Hamilton and Vettel in the past in periods where they have had a lot of unfair criticism.

Since Canada 2018 I don't think Verstappen has been making more mistakes, being more reckless or being more dangerous than anybody else apart from Hamilton.

I think he suffers from his more aggressive attitude earlier in his career. Anything Verstappen does draws for more criticism than if any other driver did it.

Vettel drove Hamilton off in a straight line (I can only imagine the cries of foul play and "golden boy" if Verstappen had done this without even an investigation) and ran into the back of his team mate. Worse than anything Verstappen did during the race. Only a few races ago he wiped out Stroll whilst rejoining the circuit. A few races before that he ran into the back of Verstappen.

Leclerc got penalised only a race ago for taking Verstappen out in turn one. a few races before that he drove Hamilton off track in Monza.

In this race Verstappen was pretty blameless for both incidents yet he still gets the criticism. for taking unneeded risks despite nobody in the top 6 managed to come close to overtaking each other all race showing he could hardly pick and choose when to make moves.

I think you will find that quite a few people blame Hamilton for the first corner incident, in particular his best mate (not), di Resta and also the normally good Palmer, neither acknowledged the initial, contact made by Verstappen, and these are British pundits.

As an overview I believe most people just see it as a racing incident likewise with the Bottas incident it's seen more as high risk in a corner were not many people attempt an overtake.

Regarding the Vettel incident I flagged that up but got few takers, I think as an overview with Verstappen the major mistake was in qualifying and the admittance of guilt thinking that the penalty would be merely losing the one lap.
I'm still as critical as ever about fiesty Max Verstappen, but I have to say that he was not responsible for the corner 1/2 little incident between him and Hamilton. Both had to catch a rear end slide and there wasn't much room to begin with. If being ahead at the apex counts for something (and I'm still not clear on where the rules are supposed to say so), then Max even had the right to run Hamilton off the road. Having said that, I can't blame Hamilton either, as his little slide was forced on him by Max.
As for Max's overtake on Bottas, that was optimistic, but not overoptimistic. A touch more early awareness on the part of Bottas, and we would only have spoken of a great overtake.

Pokerman is right, Max's real mistake was committed on Saturday. Mikeyg is also right, I feel Max has been criticised too harshly these last few races. His Belgian side must be taking over, there is hope for him yet. ;)

Even before they reached turn 1, I felt that Vettel wasn't so much pushing Hamilton off the track, than making sure he didn't lose even the least little bit of slipstream from Leclerc's car. Technical rule makers must look at this very seriously with an eye on 2021. Just as sporting rule makers must look at when somebody is actually being pushed off the track and whether that is or isn't allowed.

I've seen Vettel's onboard he looks in his left hand mirror I believe twice and given that he has full view of his rear tyre he could see Hamilton hence why probably he did it gradually, the notion that he was fully focused on getting the slipstream from Leclerc can be put to bed i think.
It's clear from Hamilton's on-board also that Vettel is looking for him. But I didn't say, nor mean, that Vettel's only focus was on Hamilton. But it was primarily on slipstreaming, I'm fairly certain.

Yes that was his prime concern but first he needed to edge Hamilton out of the way, I'm not buying that he didn't see him but then again maybe I'm giving him too much respect given that he's well known for lack of peripheral vision when having to deal with more than one car at the start of races.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:36 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
1 race for Hamilton fighting a bit to the back, and suddenly the drama starts. Because he started in front for the last million years of course he will complain about not being enough space, cause it's uncharted teritory for him.

At the same time, Verstappen is Verstappen. I don't think he went further than he has in the past.

I just think that this time he had to deal with the "wrong" driver. And Hamilton is Hamilton, even with 6 titles under his belt, he will still complain and hold resentments, even towards a dog, if he'd step in his poo.

It's just his way of being, doesn't mean he's a bad person. The same with Verstappen, he will not accept that somebody else might be right from time to time.

It's funny, these traits are admired if you win, and are not accepted if you lose. If you win you're just passionate, if you are losing, you're just a sore loser. Even if your behaviour is identical, It's all down to circumstances.

I think that more than Hamilton flagged up what Vettel did at the start including some F1 pundits and if that results in a crash like we saw in Singapore 2017, we then can blame the other drivers for not getting out of his way perhaps but not Vettel himself?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 3:54 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.


I reiterate, Max and his mistakes can cost him. If he was fighting for a title, he could very well be his worst nightmare. Similar to Ferrari/Vettel with such a high pressure to succeed for the red car... we've seen (yet again) mistakes made by them and losing out to Lewis/Merc.

Important to remember that Lewis could very well win the title in the next race.. with two to spare. At a time when 3 different teams have been qualifying 1st and winning races. That is always potentially 6 drivers with a car capable of doing the job.

If anyone wants to do the math, I'd love to see how many points Max, both Ferrari drivers could have.. IF things went their way. I bet this title fight would go down to the wire as it could have in the last couple of years. The driver and team that made the least mistakes while performing.. is Lewis/Merc. I hope Max opens his eyes.. so we really do get the title fight we want from him.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 5:44 am 
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SPA was the only race where he made a big mistake. He seems to be little frustrated especially since Ferrari has improved after summer break. Before that he seem pretty relaxed and was going to finish P3 in the standings. In Mexico I think it was just hard racing and it could have gone either way. He was just impatient and too eager to get on with it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 6:53 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
I'd be very surprised if Verstappen is not feeling the heat right now.

I am a big fan of max but he is starting to come out with... some... silly comments. The arrogance and belief in his own level (which is better than any driver on the grid apparently). Max has forgotten how many mistakes he has made in the last 12 months but because he's had a two team mates that struggle to even get close to him... (when Ric would at least put up a fight).... He now thinks he is the best driver by .2 of a second.


I reiterate, Max and his mistakes can cost him. If he was fighting for a title, he could very well be his worst nightmare. Similar to Ferrari/Vettel with such a high pressure to succeed for the red car... we've seen (yet again) mistakes made by them and losing out to Lewis/Merc.

Important to remember that Lewis could very well win the title in the next race.. with two to spare. At a time when 3 different teams have been qualifying 1st and winning races. That is always potentially 6 drivers with a car capable of doing the job.

If anyone wants to do the math, I'd love to see how many points Max, both Ferrari drivers could have.. IF things went their way. I bet this title fight would go down to the wire as it could have in the last couple of years. The driver and team that made the least mistakes while performing.. is Lewis/Merc. I hope Max opens his eyes.. so we really do get the title fight we want from him.

A big fan of Max huh :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:18 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

I reiterate, Max and his mistakes can cost him. If he was fighting for a title, he could very well be his worst nightmare. Similar to Ferrari/Vettel with such a high pressure to succeed for the red car... we've seen (yet again) mistakes made by them and losing out to Lewis/Merc.

Important to remember that Lewis could very well win the title in the next race.. with two to spare. At a time when 3 different teams have been qualifying 1st and winning races. That is always potentially 6 drivers with a car capable of doing the job.

If anyone wants to do the math, I'd love to see how many points Max, both Ferrari drivers could have.. IF things went their way. I bet this title fight would go down to the wire as it could have in the last couple of years. The driver and team that made the least mistakes while performing.. is Lewis/Merc. I hope Max opens his eyes.. so we really do get the title fight we want from him.

A big fan of Max huh :lol:


Very strange comment to be frank. I've noticed it with other fanatical fans, it seems that they are unable to see that its perfectly OK to criticise your favoured driver and recognize their faults.

These are things drivers have to work on to get better, in fact if you asked Max himself I doubt he would deny it, he seems to relish straight talking.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:42 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
SPA was the only race where he made a big mistake. He seems to be little frustrated especially since Ferrari has improved after summer break. Before that he seem pretty relaxed and was going to finish P3 in the standings. In Mexico I think it was just hard racing and it could have gone either way. He was just impatient and too eager to get on with it.


Unfortunately I'm not just talking about big mistakes where a good chance of a win was lost. RBR have had qualifying issues and reliability problems, I'm sure Max didn't perform to the max at every race/qualifying. I'm sure strat calls were not perfect.

You look at Bottas, he hasn't always performed at his best, at times luck hasn't gone his way, strat calls or Lewis was just on another level. So I say again, I think it could have gone to the wire or certainly still in contention if things went their way. Likewise for Ferrari. At best we could have seen Max win another 2 races potentially 3 if things had been in their favour. Maybe not enough to topple Lewis but even if they had taken another 50 points and stopped Lewis taking so many, how many does that add up in a season? Certainly enough to be in contention towards the last few races. After all, it was the F1 pundits talking about the title when he did win 2 and on merit where him and the car seemed unstoppable - likewise for Leclerc.

Everyone else just simply lacked consistency, reliability and made mistakes when compared to Lewis. Plus Max hasn't had the team mate to really back him and take points from Lewis.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:49 am 
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Covalent wrote:
A big fan of Max huh :lol:

It's called being realistic.

During the time of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button, I witnessed Lewis constantly making huge mistakes and costly ones. Some of which were frankly rookie mistakes. I was very critical of Lewis during his 2011 season where Button was quite consistent that year.

I guess people forget that you can be a fan and still critical. I'm also a football fan for a team that is one of the biggest names in the world but currently struggling to keep track of top four. I'm critical of that team and even some players. Does that mean I'm not a fan because I should just praise them all day every day regardless?

I've been a fan of Hill, Mansell, Senna, Hakkinenin in my time (including Lewis/Button/Ric/Max/LeClerc and a soft spot for Norris). I've been critical of every single one of them at some point. So it makes me NOT a fan? I mean seriously? I really need to be obsessive and defend them no matter what?

Nah thanks, I'd rather be realistic compared to being blinded.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:07 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
A big fan of Max huh :lol:

It's called being realistic.

During the time of Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button, I witnessed Lewis constantly making huge mistakes and costly ones. Some of which were frankly rookie mistakes. I was very critical of Lewis during his 2011 season where Button was quite consistent that year.

I guess people forget that you can be a fan and still critical. I'm also a football fan for a team that is one of the biggest names in the world but currently struggling to keep track of top four. I'm critical of that team and even some players. Does that mean I'm not a fan because I should just praise them all day every day regardless?

I've been a fan of Hill, Mansell, Senna, Hakkinenin in my time (including Lewis/Button/Ric/Max/LeClerc and a soft spot for Norris). I've been critical of every single one of them at some point. So it makes me NOT a fan? I mean seriously? I really need to be obsessive and defend them no matter what?

Nah thanks, I'd rather be realistic compared to being blinded.

Fair enough.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:33 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
1 race for Hamilton fighting a bit to the back, and suddenly the drama starts. Because he started in front for the last million years of course he will complain about not being enough space, cause it's uncharted teritory for him.

At the same time, Verstappen is Verstappen. I don't think he went further than he has in the past.

I just think that this time he had to deal with the "wrong" driver. And Hamilton is Hamilton, even with 6 titles under his belt, he will still complain and hold resentments, even towards a dog, if he'd step in his poo.

It's just his way of being, doesn't mean he's a bad person. The same with Verstappen, he will not accept that somebody else might be right from time to time.

It's funny, these traits are admired if you win, and are not accepted if you lose. If you win you're just passionate, if you are losing, you're just a sore loser. Even if your behaviour is identical, It's all down to circumstances.


What a total load of hogwash mate. Hamilton did nothing wrong - Vettel just had a screw you attitude and kept going Left. He ran Hamilton off the track. The FIA stewards are utterly incompetent. Vettel's actions also caused Lewis to hit the breaks and take avoiding action, which let Verstappen get slightly past him.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:35 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
One think I'll say about max at the moment is he should stop criticising every driver and red bull in the media. Everytime I check Google news feed Verstappen is slagging off someone else. Getting quite tiring, we get it lad, you think you are god's gift now give it a rest.


It's how Verstappen works. He seems to love attention and stirring up the pot.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:23 am 
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This thread is utter nonsense. Between Belgium last year and Hungary this year, a span of 21 races (so exactly a full season), Max had 21 straight finishes of 5th or better, including 3 wins and 4 second places. In the 3rd best car. Aside from Hamilton, nobody on the grid is as fast and as consistent, and Max is only 22 years old, which is the age Hamilton was when he started in F1. Max is taking more risks of late, but that's no surprise as he is mostly shooting for race wins and not interested in finishing 2nd-5th.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:17 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
This thread is utter nonsense. Between Belgium last year and Hungary this year, a span of 21 races (so exactly a full season), Max had 21 straight finishes of 5th or better, including 3 wins and 4 second places. In the 3rd best car. Aside from Hamilton, nobody on the grid is as fast and as consistent, and Max is only 22 years old, which is the age Hamilton was when he started in F1. Max is taking more risks of late, but that's no surprise as he is mostly shooting for race wins and not interested in finishing 2nd-5th.


But that is exactly the point, if he is happy with top 5 finishes he is doing brilliant, If he wants to be in the top team rather than 3rd best he needs to have a unique selling point. Love or hate Hamilton he is a massive promotional tool for Mercedes, In Vettel and Leclerc they can represent the brand off track. Vettel is great at that.
Sulky, moody behavior with side swipes at his peers isn't appealing in the slightest. If he wants a top drive he has to swap teams or wait for RB to come good. If RB found a quick youngster, how long do you think MV would last, they "spit drivers out". That's why Verstappen needs to watch his back!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:24 am 
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dpastern wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
1 race for Hamilton fighting a bit to the back, and suddenly the drama starts. Because he started in front for the last million years of course he will complain about not being enough space, cause it's uncharted teritory for him.

At the same time, Verstappen is Verstappen. I don't think he went further than he has in the past.

I just think that this time he had to deal with the "wrong" driver. And Hamilton is Hamilton, even with 6 titles under his belt, he will still complain and hold resentments, even towards a dog, if he'd step in his poo.

It's just his way of being, doesn't mean he's a bad person. The same with Verstappen, he will not accept that somebody else might be right from time to time.

It's funny, these traits are admired if you win, and are not accepted if you lose. If you win you're just passionate, if you are losing, you're just a sore loser. Even if your behaviour is identical, It's all down to circumstances.


What a total load of hogwash mate. Hamilton did nothing wrong - Vettel just had a screw you attitude and kept going Left. He ran Hamilton off the track. The FIA stewards are utterly incompetent. Vettel's actions also caused Lewis to hit the breaks and take avoiding action, which let Verstappen get slightly past him.
The problem with saying the stewards are incompetent is that we have no report to base that on, so we can't see their reasoning for taking no further action. I agree with Jolyon Palmer that it should have been looked into.
The more we see this kind of judgement, the more I believe it is actually the F1 owners and the FIA who lean on the stewards to "let them race". Which is dangerous and sets exactly the wrong message to youngsters.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:30 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
This thread is utter nonsense. Between Belgium last year and Hungary this year, a span of 21 races (so exactly a full season), Max had 21 straight finishes of 5th or better, including 3 wins and 4 second places. In the 3rd best car. Aside from Hamilton, nobody on the grid is as fast and as consistent, and Max is only 22 years old, which is the age Hamilton was when he started in F1. Max is taking more risks of late, but that's no surprise as he is mostly shooting for race wins and not interested in finishing 2nd-5th.


I think most people are basing their views on the totality and trajectory of the current season. So the 2019 season, rather than your unique 'exactly a full season'. I think in that season Hamilton achieved 14 wins to your boys 3; and not all in a dominant car.

Today you have Ham at the top of his game, Vettel regaining a bit of form, and the emergence of Leclerc. So whilst I disagree with the 'watching his back' terminology; this thread is in no way 'nonsense'.


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