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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:46 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
... It (the safety car) has always been part of F1, and allows the best, least complicated, solution to a sporting problem. I don't see how you can compare this to reverse starts, which serve as a solution to a lack of entertainment, something that has nothing to do with the sport. ...
I can only assume you are a very young F1 fan, because I remember very well how afraid I was that F1 might take over the idea from US motorsport. Perhaps they eventually did, and I'm willing to believe, with safety in mind at first. But its use has been seen to provide artificial excitement possibilities - throwing away all the work that had up to that point been done by drivers and teams - and as we have seen as recently as the last race, bunching up the cars for restarts increases the amount of accidents following each withdrawal of the SC from the track.
What makes you believe it has always been a feature of F1 is frankly puzzling. There is nothing F1 about the whole concept of a Spectacle Car.


Are you implying Fiki that in the past the stewards may have, on the odd occasion, had the interest of the spectacle & not safety as the overriding reason to bring out the safety car or are you just alluding to the fact that the increase in the post safety car race excitement is just a by-product of the safety car?

Just out of interest the first time a safety car was used was at the 1973 Canadian GP but was only officially adopted in 1993.

Speaking of ideas from US motor sport though I will say not only US motorsport, I wonder if F1 could ever head down the track of individual car sponsorship?


I can't speak for Fiki but we have seen on several occasions this season the safety car brought out yet by the time the cars have lined up the issue that supposedly necessitated it has been cleared.

With that in mind you have to ask yourself why it was used?

If it was seen as spicing up races I don't think we would have the safefty car at all anymore tbh. There are other solutions that do the job without corrupting a race result.


Because marshals or vehicles needed to access a particular area of the circuit for an extended period, or there was a car parked in a dangerous position, so the safety car was the safest option?

I'll guarantee you that if the marshals were forced to access the track under a VSC and something went horribly wrong, there'd be hell to pay.

Probably the only safety car incident I can remember this year where I thought they may have been able to get away without using it was Giovanazzi binning it at Silverstone. Other than that, I can't remember any that I didn't think were warranted.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:56 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
... It (the safety car) has always been part of F1, and allows the best, least complicated, solution to a sporting problem. I don't see how you can compare this to reverse starts, which serve as a solution to a lack of entertainment, something that has nothing to do with the sport. ...
I can only assume you are a very young F1 fan, because I remember very well how afraid I was that F1 might take over the idea from US motorsport. Perhaps they eventually did, and I'm willing to believe, with safety in mind at first. But its use has been seen to provide artificial excitement possibilities - throwing away all the work that had up to that point been done by drivers and teams - and as we have seen as recently as the last race, bunching up the cars for restarts increases the amount of accidents following each withdrawal of the SC from the track.
What makes you believe it has always been a feature of F1 is frankly puzzling. There is nothing F1 about the whole concept of a Spectacle Car.


Are you implying Fiki that in the past the stewards may have, on the odd occasion, had the interest of the spectacle & not safety as the overriding reason to bring out the safety car or are you just alluding to the fact that the increase in the post safety car race excitement is just a by-product of the safety car?

Just out of interest the first time a safety car was used was at the 1973 Canadian GP but was only officially adopted in 1993.

Speaking of ideas from US motor sport though I will say not only US motorsport, I wonder if F1 could ever head down the track of individual car sponsorship?


I can't speak for Fiki but we have seen on several occasions this season the safety car brought out yet by the time the cars have lined up the issue that supposedly necessitated it has been cleared.

With that in mind you have to ask yourself why it was used?

If it was seen as spicing up races I don't think we would have the safefty car at all anymore tbh. There are other solutions that do the job without corrupting a race result.


Because marshals or vehicles needed to access a particular area of the circuit for an extended period, or there was a car parked in a dangerous position, so the safety car was the safest option?

I'll guarantee you that if the marshals were forced to access the track under a VSC and something went horribly wrong, there'd be hell to pay.

Probably the only safety car incident I can remember this year where I thought they may have been able to get away without using it was Giovanazzi binning it at Silverstone. Other than that, I can't remember any that I didn't think were warranted.


Ok, so if that is the case why are marshals clearing accidents whilst the cars are still catching up to the safety car? During this period drivers are effectively in VSC conditions. The Giovinazzi one is an example of that. By the time drivers were actually behind the safety car his car was cleared. Same thing happened at Monaco with Leclerc's debris I believe.

If the safety car is actually needed marshals would not be sent on track to clear incidents before safety car conditions actually genuinely took effect, but they are.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:12 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I can only assume you are a very young F1 fan, because I remember very well how afraid I was that F1 might take over the idea from US motorsport. Perhaps they eventually did, and I'm willing to believe, with safety in mind at first. But its use has been seen to provide artificial excitement possibilities - throwing away all the work that had up to that point been done by drivers and teams - and as we have seen as recently as the last race, bunching up the cars for restarts increases the amount of accidents following each withdrawal of the SC from the track.
What makes you believe it has always been a feature of F1 is frankly puzzling. There is nothing F1 about the whole concept of a Spectacle Car.


Are you implying Fiki that in the past the stewards may have, on the odd occasion, had the interest of the spectacle & not safety as the overriding reason to bring out the safety car or are you just alluding to the fact that the increase in the post safety car race excitement is just a by-product of the safety car?

Just out of interest the first time a safety car was used was at the 1973 Canadian GP but was only officially adopted in 1993.

Speaking of ideas from US motor sport though I will say not only US motorsport, I wonder if F1 could ever head down the track of individual car sponsorship?


I can't speak for Fiki but we have seen on several occasions this season the safety car brought out yet by the time the cars have lined up the issue that supposedly necessitated it has been cleared.

With that in mind you have to ask yourself why it was used?

If it was seen as spicing up races I don't think we would have the safefty car at all anymore tbh. There are other solutions that do the job without corrupting a race result.


Because marshals or vehicles needed to access a particular area of the circuit for an extended period, or there was a car parked in a dangerous position, so the safety car was the safest option?

I'll guarantee you that if the marshals were forced to access the track under a VSC and something went horribly wrong, there'd be hell to pay.

Probably the only safety car incident I can remember this year where I thought they may have been able to get away without using it was Giovanazzi binning it at Silverstone. Other than that, I can't remember any that I didn't think were warranted.


Ok, so if that is the case why are marshals clearing accidents whilst the cars are still catching up to the safety car? During this period drivers are effectively in VSC conditions. The Giovinazzi one is an example of that. By the time drivers were actually behind the safety car his car was cleared. Same thing happened at Monaco with Leclerc's debris I believe.

If the safety car is actually needed marshals would not be sent on track to clear incidents before safety car conditions actually genuinely took effect, but they are.

Well with Giovanazzi he ended up a fair way off the circuit, hence why I thought that maybe the situation could've been handled under a VSC, or even left in-situ, instead of the safety car & the race was under yellow flag / safety car conditions so the risk factor was quite low. I was thinking more a scenario where the marshals needed to access the actual racing surface.

Sometimes marshals might dart out onto the track to get a large piece of debris like a body part (the car variety I mean)or something like that, but if there's a large amount of small debris that'll need prolonged attention, the safety car is usually called.

Happy to further examine any situation where marshals may have been on track while cars were outside of safety car formation.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:02 pm 
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Posts: 16249
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Are you implying Fiki that in the past the stewards may have, on the odd occasion, had the interest of the spectacle & not safety as the overriding reason to bring out the safety car or are you just alluding to the fact that the increase in the post safety car race excitement is just a by-product of the safety car?

Just out of interest the first time a safety car was used was at the 1973 Canadian GP but was only officially adopted in 1993.

Speaking of ideas from US motor sport though I will say not only US motorsport, I wonder if F1 could ever head down the track of individual car sponsorship?


I can't speak for Fiki but we have seen on several occasions this season the safety car brought out yet by the time the cars have lined up the issue that supposedly necessitated it has been cleared.

With that in mind you have to ask yourself why it was used?

If it was seen as spicing up races I don't think we would have the safefty car at all anymore tbh. There are other solutions that do the job without corrupting a race result.


Because marshals or vehicles needed to access a particular area of the circuit for an extended period, or there was a car parked in a dangerous position, so the safety car was the safest option?

I'll guarantee you that if the marshals were forced to access the track under a VSC and something went horribly wrong, there'd be hell to pay.

Probably the only safety car incident I can remember this year where I thought they may have been able to get away without using it was Giovanazzi binning it at Silverstone. Other than that, I can't remember any that I didn't think were warranted.


Ok, so if that is the case why are marshals clearing accidents whilst the cars are still catching up to the safety car? During this period drivers are effectively in VSC conditions. The Giovinazzi one is an example of that. By the time drivers were actually behind the safety car his car was cleared. Same thing happened at Monaco with Leclerc's debris I believe.

If the safety car is actually needed marshals would not be sent on track to clear incidents before safety car conditions actually genuinely took effect, but they are.

Well with Giovanazzi he ended up a fair way off the circuit, hence why I thought that maybe the situation could've been handled under a VSC, or even left in-situ, instead of the safety car & the race was under yellow flag / safety car conditions so the risk factor was quite low. I was thinking more a scenario where the marshals needed to access the actual racing surface.

Sometimes marshals might dart out onto the track to get a large piece of debris like a body part (the car variety I mean)or something like that, but if there's a large amount of small debris that'll need prolonged attention, the safety car is usually called.

Happy to further examine any situation where marshals may have been on track while cars were outside of safety car formation.


It happened twice at Silverstone I believe. It seems to be general protocol. I agree if marshals need to actually go on track then there is more call for it but the safety car is regularly called out to deal with cars off track as well. Marshals are sent out in these cases to retrieve the cars before the cars have lined up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 12:51 pm 
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Return to single car quali of three laps per entry. The duration of quali would be about the same (20 cars x 3 laps). No one in the way, quickest car and driver sits on the pole. Fewer tires used, less posing and strategy in pit lane traffic. Safety. Expedience. Costs.

Alternately

The FIA supplies 20 equal ATM cars and all drivers do a sprint race with the proposed points setting the grid. Cover that entire cost by not awarding manufacture points money. Yee Haaaaaaaaa!

Or, aside from overall dimensions and engine displacement and fuel allotment. Run what you brung (including bringing your own tires).

Bah and Humbug

Although, spectator attendance would increase with a reverse order sprint and everyone gets a raise.

Bah and humbug

A more amusing alternative, drivers are assigned to drive another's car via computer lot and quali remains as it is. Entertainment would be amazing. Or save even more money and drivers do a foot race, one lap around the course.

Or............

:P


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Ok, a foot race would be cruel. How about a ping pong match?

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:38 pm 
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Oh what compelling counterarguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:18 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:

Are you implying Fiki that in the past the stewards may have, on the odd occasion, had the interest of the spectacle & not safety as the overriding reason to bring out the safety car or are you just alluding to the fact that the increase in the post safety car race excitement is just a by-product of the safety car?

Just out of interest the first time a safety car was used was at the 1973 Canadian GP but was only officially adopted in 1993.

Speaking of ideas from US motor sport though I will say not only US motorsport, I wonder if F1 could ever head down the track of individual car sponsorship?


I can't speak for Fiki but we have seen on several occasions this season the safety car brought out yet by the time the cars have lined up the issue that supposedly necessitated it has been cleared.

With that in mind you have to ask yourself why it was used?

If it was seen as spicing up races I don't think we would have the safefty car at all anymore tbh. There are other solutions that do the job without corrupting a race result.


Because marshals or vehicles needed to access a particular area of the circuit for an extended period, or there was a car parked in a dangerous position, so the safety car was the safest option?

I'll guarantee you that if the marshals were forced to access the track under a VSC and something went horribly wrong, there'd be hell to pay.

Probably the only safety car incident I can remember this year where I thought they may have been able to get away without using it was Giovanazzi binning it at Silverstone. Other than that, I can't remember any that I didn't think were warranted.


Ok, so if that is the case why are marshals clearing accidents whilst the cars are still catching up to the safety car? During this period drivers are effectively in VSC conditions. The Giovinazzi one is an example of that. By the time drivers were actually behind the safety car his car was cleared. Same thing happened at Monaco with Leclerc's debris I believe.

If the safety car is actually needed marshals would not be sent on track to clear incidents before safety car conditions actually genuinely took effect, but they are.

Well with Giovanazzi he ended up a fair way off the circuit, hence why I thought that maybe the situation could've been handled under a VSC, or even left in-situ, instead of the safety car & the race was under yellow flag / safety car conditions so the risk factor was quite low. I was thinking more a scenario where the marshals needed to access the actual racing surface.

Sometimes marshals might dart out onto the track to get a large piece of debris like a body part (the car variety I mean)or something like that, but if there's a large amount of small debris that'll need prolonged attention, the safety car is usually called.

Happy to further examine any situation where marshals may have been on track while cars were outside of safety car formation.


So safety car called....

Note marshals and truck on circuit side of the barriers starting the recovery of Grosjean's car before all the cars are lined up behind the safety car so in VSC conditions.

Why was it needed if that is deemed safe enough?

And again the Williams cleared before all the cars lined up.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Spa, Paul Ricard and Sochi being targeted for reverse grid races! Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Spa, Paul Ricard and Sochi being targeted for reverse grid races! Aghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Paul Ricard's still on the calender?! x(

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:34 pm 
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It’s pretty artificial and a bit of a gimmick, but I am keeping an open mind. Can you imagine a 25 lap race at Spa with the Williams on the front row and Red bull, Ferrari, Mercedes occupying the back 3 rows. It would an amazing spectacle although I don’t really agree with it, it would be fun to watch, no doubt. There is no way I would miss that race.

Formula one YouTube repeated the 2005 Japanese GP today and it was the fact the three fastest drivers started 16th,17th and 18th that made this an epic race and a modern classic.

I wouldn’t want to see this more than 3 times per season, but all sports evolve and move with the times. The sport has and will always have some artificial elements, the current SC and VSC system in place and that can strike at any race at any time for example.

Under the current system, the top 3 teams will still make it into the top 10. I’m not sure who would be favourite to win this qualifying race. Possibly Vettel starting 16th? Grosjean starting 4th?


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
It’s pretty artificial and a bit of a gimmick, but I am keeping an open mind. Can you imagine a 25 lap race at Spa with the Williams on the front row and Red bull, Ferrari, Mercedes occupying the back 3 rows. It would an amazing spectacle although I don’t really agree with it, it would be fun to watch, no doubt. There is no way I would miss that race.

Formula one YouTube repeated the 2005 Japanese GP today and it was the fact the three fastest drivers started 16th,17th and 18th that made this an epic race and a modern classic.

I wouldn’t want to see this more than 3 times per season, but all sports evolve and move with the times. The sport has and will always have some artificial elements, the current SC and VSC system in place and that can strike at any race at any time for example.

:thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:35 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
I wouldn’t want to see this more than 3 times per season, but all sports evolve and move with the times. The sport has and will always have some artificial elements, the current SC and VSC system in place and that can strike at any race at any time for example.


Surely it's absurd to have different rules at some races than at others in a year long championship. I had assumed that if the 3-race trial was successful the new format would be rolled out to all the races. If it's already been decided that the new system won't work at half the races on the calendar (and it clearly won't where overtaking is a problem) then IMO even trialling it is a waste of time.

I mean, where will this end? I bet the big teams are already looking at building specific sprint race cars. That will really help cut costs! Perhaps we should allow cars that can take off and literally over-take at street circuit races! That would liven up the show no end. x(


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:40 pm 
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I am interested to see how it works in practice but I don't like the inconsistent rules from event to event.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:45 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
I wouldn’t want to see this more than 3 times per season, but all sports evolve and move with the times. The sport has and will always have some artificial elements, the current SC and VSC system in place and that can strike at any race at any time for example.


Surely it's absurd to have different rules at some races than at others in a year long championship. I had assumed that if the 3-race trial was successful the new format would be rolled out to all the races. If it's already been decided that the new system won't work at half the races on the calendar (and it clearly won't where overtaking is a problem) then IMO even trialling it is a waste of time.

I mean, where will this end? I bet the big teams are already looking at building specific sprint race cars. That will really help cut costs! Perhaps we should allow cars that can take off and literally over-take at street circuit races! That would liven up the show no end. x(


We had double points in Abu Dhabi 2014. We had best of results for the majority of F1 history which affectively deleted race results. We used to have none championship races. We have had the Indy 500 count towards the championship when most teams didn’t even enter it... the last race itself was run to a different format and as races that award half points.

It’s not completely absurd to run an event to different rules or it have a different weighting. But the FIA have said it will no happen at all tracks if it was fully implemented. Only ones where overtaking is possible. Imagine it in Monaco for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:18 pm 
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That's why Sochi is included ... ???


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 Post subject: Re: Sprint races in 2020
PostPosted: Sat Oct 19, 2019 3:26 pm 
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14666 ... am-impasse

Currently looks like they won't go ahead with this plan since some top team is concerned they won't be able to get through in the reverse grid... Big surprise.

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