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Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision
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Author:  F1 Racer [ Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

It looked like Lewis crowded Seb off the outside of the track at turn 1 on lap 1 and Kimi crowded Max off the inside of the track at turn 1 on lap 1. I guess these weren't punished due to it being the opening lap of the race? Max had his race destroyed because of this. I guess you could say it's karma for what he did to Charles in Austria, but still I do not like to see this kind of racing.

Author:  Covalent [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

F1 Racer wrote:
It looked like Lewis crowded Seb off the outside of the track at turn 1 on lap 1 and Kimi crowded Max off the inside of the track at turn 1 on lap 1. I guess these weren't punished due to it being the opening lap of the race? Max had his race destroyed because of this. I guess you could say it's karma for what he did to Charles in Austria, but still I do not like to see this kind of racing.

Max vs. Kimi was a racing incident, but if I had to apportion more blame to one driver, it would be Max.

Author:  mcdo [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

At first I thought Kimi was somewhat at fault but then Max himself said he braked later than the guys around him. So for that reason I put the blame squarely on him. Norris showed us all how Max should have done it - he crawled around the apex and didn't touch a thing, came out the other side in 5th place

Author:  Alienturnedhuman [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

mcdo wrote:
At first I thought Kimi was somewhat at fault but then Max himself said he braked later than the guys around him. So for that reason I put the blame squarely on him. Norris showed us all how Max should have done it - he crawled around the apex and didn't touch a thing, came out the other side in 5th place

Right, Max's comment of "I braked later than them" was an attempt at a brag, as if to say "because I am much better I could brake later" - Kimi probably could have braked later as well, likewise Norris, but it's turn 1 at Spa, the most notorious first corner on the calendar, not a one on one overtake during a duel. The fact he braked later showed the impetuous streak he'd seemed to bury, the catalyst probably being his frustration at his bad start and a determination to immediately try and put it right.

However, I do wonder if this incident warrants its own thread as other than the fact Max was involved there is little connection to the Leclerc incident.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.

Author:  Mod Aqua [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Have split this as it's not relevant to the original Leclerc/Verstappen Austria incident any more...

Author:  pokerman [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Covalent wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It looked like Lewis crowded Seb off the outside of the track at turn 1 on lap 1 and Kimi crowded Max off the inside of the track at turn 1 on lap 1. I guess these weren't punished due to it being the opening lap of the race? Max had his race destroyed because of this. I guess you could say it's karma for what he did to Charles in Austria, but still I do not like to see this kind of racing.

Max vs. Kimi was a racing incident, but if I had to apportion more blame to one driver, it would be Max.

Yep Verstappen back to poor risk/reward management I would say, he lost 2 places at the start and tried to make both places back in one corner, this a corner notorious for first corner scrapes because it's a tight corner.

Most drivers were clearly just looking to make it around unscathed but not Verstappen who's main objective was to make up places, he took the highest risk and paid the price.

It's interesting to see what Perez did, one of the cars Verstappen was passing, he completely jumped well out of the way, he could see what was about to happen, I would call it racecraft on the part of Perez as opposed to a driver being merely aggressive and when it pays off it looks good.

In respect to Hamilton he didn't really run Vettel off the track, Vettel lost grip on the kerb which speared him to the left and off the track.

Author:  pokerman [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
At first I thought Kimi was somewhat at fault but then Max himself said he braked later than the guys around him. So for that reason I put the blame squarely on him. Norris showed us all how Max should have done it - he crawled around the apex and didn't touch a thing, came out the other side in 5th place

Right, Max's comment of "I braked later than them" was an attempt at a brag, as if to say "because I am much better I could brake later" - Kimi probably could have braked later as well, likewise Norris, but it's turn 1 at Spa, the most notorious first corner on the calendar, not a one on one overtake during a duel. The fact he braked later showed the impetuous streak he'd seemed to bury, the catalyst probably being his frustration at his bad start and a determination to immediately try and put it right.

However, I do wonder if this incident warrants its own thread as other than the fact Max was involved there is little connection to the Leclerc incident.

Yeah It was said Kimi braked early to avoid hitting the back of Bottas, drivers are mainly looking to get around the corner unscathed whereas Verstappen saw that as a weakness and an opportunity, oops.

Author:  pokerman [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

mikeyg123 wrote:
The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.

When you are concentrating on not hitting the car in front you are not necessarily aware of everything around you especially as Verstappen's car was masked by Perez's as Verstappen deemed it wise to dive on the inside of not one but two cars, this feels like a deja vue to recent 2017 discussions.

Author:  DOLOMITE [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Racing incident but Verstappen probably should have hung back. There was a gap, but it was always going to close and it's not a risk you should take on the first lap. Respect to Verstappen for absolving Raikkonen of any blame. Wasn't that bad and it's stupid of people to say Verstappen is "returning to old ways" - one fairly inoffensive incident in a run of otherwise fantastic form.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.

When you are concentrating on not hitting the car in front you are not necessarily aware of everything around you especially as Verstappen's car was masked by Perez's as Verstappen deemed it wise to dive on the inside of not one but two cars, this feels like a deja vue to recent 2017 discussions.


Oh this was a bigger risk than any of his 3 lap one incidents in 2017. He put himself in a risky position here.

Author:  Fiki [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

mikeyg123 wrote:
The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.
I think you need to have a re-read of the current rules. :blush: Nowhere do the rules say anything about a significant portion of the car; that was a few years ago and was taken out almost as quickly as it was put in.
The portion about leaving space is also wrong, as it only says that in relation to a defending car going off the racing line and then moving back towards it.
Don't feel bad about this though; most of the drivers seem to have given up trying to keep up to date with the rules.

If you look at the start, Max comes away worse than Kimi and Checo. When he gets going, Checo realises he is going to be squeezed between Kimi on the left, and Max trying to make up for another bad start on the right. Checo pulls out and moves completely to the outside of the first corner. It is possible Kimi saw him pull out, and it is likely he didn't notice Max further to the inside. Max's penny should have dropped when he saw Checo pull out, but it didn't. And while it is acceptable to let this go as a first lap, first corner racing incident, it really was Max's fault.

Personally, in this case, I blame the Brexit scandal for Max's penny remaining weightless... :D

Author:  Mort Canard [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.
I think you need to have a re-read of the current rules. :blush: Nowhere do the rules say anything about a significant portion of the car; that was a few years ago and was taken out almost as quickly as it was put in.
The portion about leaving space is also wrong, as it only says that in relation to a defending car going off the racing line and then moving back towards it.
Don't feel bad about this though; most of the drivers seem to have given up trying to keep up to date with the rules.

If you look at the start, Max comes away worse than Kimi and Checo. When he gets going, Checo realises he is going to be squeezed between Kimi on the left, and Max trying to make up for another bad start on the right. Checo pulls out and moves completely to the outside of the first corner. It is possible Kimi saw him pull out, and it is likely he didn't notice Max further to the inside. Max's penny should have dropped when he saw Checo pull out, but it didn't. And while it is acceptable to let this go as a first lap, first corner racing incident, it really was Max's fault.

Personally, in this case, I blame the Brexit scandal for Max's penny remaining weightless... :D


:lol:

Author:  F1 Racer [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.
I think you need to have a re-read of the current rules. :blush: Nowhere do the rules say anything about a significant portion of the car; that was a few years ago and was taken out almost as quickly as it was put in.
The portion about leaving space is also wrong, as it only says that in relation to a defending car going off the racing line and then moving back towards it.


Firstly, you can't crowd a driver off the track, and Kimi did this to Max by moving laterally across into him and Max had no further space to go up the inside, (no different to Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018 where Max just chopped across).

You mention about a defending car going off the racing line, (Kimi in the middle of the track and off the racing line at the approach to the corner), and then moving back towards it, (again Kimi moving towards the inside apex of the corner which is the racing line assuming you are taking the corner with no cars around you), so Kimi is in the wrong as per what you say.

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?

Didn't Kimi and Max collide at this corner a couple of years ago if my memory serves me correct? I'm pretty sure it was the same issue with cars being pinched up the inside.

Author:  TheGiantHogweed [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 5:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

I thought that it was a racing incident. But Verstappen was very optomistic with what he did. Don't think either should have got a penalty for this. But the manner in which Verstappen drove after that pretty heavy impact was really really stupid and dangerous. You could tell by looking at his car that it had a big problem, so the fact he didn't bother slowing down when he was trying to steer was crazy. He kept trying and wrecked the car when he could have gone slow and pulled over sensibly or maybe even driven to the pits. I almost feel he should have been investigated for driving down the hill in the manner he did with that damage.

Author:  Asphalt_World [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

F1 Racer wrote:

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?



Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.

Author:  Exediron [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Racing incident. Verstappen took a risky move, and Kimi should have left a little more space or moved earlier.

That said, I think it was poor racecraft on Max's part to attempt it. He's got a car quick enough to win now; you don't win at the first corner. In a lap or two he would have made back all those places anyway.

Author:  sandman1347 [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

I think they both got it wrong there. Kimi should probably have expected that someone might be in his blind spot there and left a little room by default. Max had a bad start and I think he was being overly aggressive there trying to make up for it. He should have known that was likely to happen. Call it a racing incident and move on.

Author:  StanB123 [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The rules definitely say Kimi was at fault. If someone as a significant portion of their car alongside you have to leave space and Kimi didn't. Max took a risk he perhaps didn't need to take but the blame for the accident is all on Kimi.
I think you need to have a re-read of the current rules. :blush: Nowhere do the rules say anything about a significant portion of the car; that was a few years ago and was taken out almost as quickly as it was put in.
The portion about leaving space is also wrong, as it only says that in relation to a defending car going off the racing line and then moving back towards it.


Firstly, you can't crowd a driver off the track, and Kimi did this to Max by moving laterally across into him and Max had no further space to go up the inside, (no different to Max vs Ocon in Brazil 2018 where Max just chopped across).

You mention about a defending car going off the racing line, (Kimi in the middle of the track and off the racing line at the approach to the corner), and then moving back towards it, (again Kimi moving towards the inside apex of the corner which is the racing line assuming you are taking the corner with no cars around you), so Kimi is in the wrong as per what you say.

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?

Didn't Kimi and Max collide at this corner a couple of years ago if my memory serves me correct? I'm pretty sure it was the same issue with cars being pinched up the inside.

Hear hear! I was thinking I was nuts for thinking exactly this.

I can understand Kimi attempting the line he took, but it was quite opportunistic to just assume no one was there.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?



Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.


These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

sandman1347 wrote:
I think they both got it wrong there. Kimi should probably have expected that someone might be in his blind spot there and left a little room by default. Max had a bad start and I think he was being overly aggressive there trying to make up for it. He should have known that was likely to happen. Call it a racing incident and move on.


If Kimi leaves a car's width, they don't touch, so only Kimi needed to change what he did and there would have been no crash. Max did nothing wrong here, don't we want the driver that is behind to try and get their car at least partially alongside the car in front, why should he back out? We want them to race so he should try and stick his car up the inside whenever he gets the chance and he has a right not to be turned into when these chances arise. It seems like you want to believe that Max is always at least partially to blame, but he is innocent here, he is only guilty of trying to race Kimi, it is Kimi that is the one that moved laterally into contact, Max moved as far right as he could until the presence of the wall allowed him to move over no further.

Now Max is guilty in Brazil 2018 for an identical incident of being a 'Kimi' and chopping into the inside driver and not giving the nose of their car space, but in Belgium 2019 he is the innocent victim.

Remember we want the driver that is behind to try to get his nose partially past the rear of the car in front, whether that be on the inside or the outside, (to promote and increase 'racing'), and we don't want to see the defending driver moving across into the nose of the attacker's car when this happens.

A racing incident would be something like Hungary 2019 between Hamilton and Bottas where there is such minor overlap of cars going around a quick corner that it is difficult to apportion blame or see who should have backed out of it.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

Author:  Fiki [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

StanB123 wrote:
Hear hear! I was thinking I was nuts for thinking exactly this.
You're not, plenty of fans make the same mistake.

F1 Racer wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?



Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.


These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.
Right... alright let's discuss this then. Would you start by disclosing which rule states that in this case Kimi had to leave a car's width of room? If you can find that rule, we'll continue on from there.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 8:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?



Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.


These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.
Right... alright let's discuss this then. Would you start by disclosing which rule states that in this case Kimi had to leave a car's width of room? If you can find that rule, we'll continue on from there.


The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.

Author:  Fiki [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Here is an explanation of what Kimi should have done. If a track is 10m wide say, and an F1 car is 2m wide say, then if we assume your car is positioned on corner entry for a right-hander with 5m of track between you and the left edge of the track, and 3m between you and the right edge of the track, (therefore 1.5 x a car width to your inside and 2.5 car width's to your outside). Then it is your job, (if you can't see cars around you easily but you know they are likely to be there), to try and drive around the corner with a trajectory or path that maintains that 5m gap to your left and 3m gap to your right as much as possible at all times through that corner. Instead what Kimi did is he turned in super sharply so that he could take up the apex leaving about 0.5m to his right and 7.5m to his left, hence why Max got pinched off the track which is not fair. Why couldn't Kimi just maintain his trajectory by staying in the middle of the track?



Yeah, cos we can all get our tape measure out whilst braking from 140mph into a hairpin surrounded by multiple cars, all of whom are on unknown trajectories and speeds.


These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.
Right... alright let's discuss this then. Would you start by disclosing which rule states that in this case Kimi had to leave a car's width of room? If you can find that rule, we'll continue on from there.


The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.
OK, how do you decide that Kimi was deliberately crowding Max off the track? Because the word deliberate is in the actual rule, and it is important. According to Max himself after the race, Kimi didn't do it on purpose. So it was not deliberate, and the crowding rule is not applicable.

I know the rule about leaving a car's width is mentioned often. Even by drivers who should know what it says and still get it wrong. So, would you explain why you think it applied in this case, please?

Author:  F1 Racer [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Should Verstappen get a penalty for his overtake on LeCl

Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Fiki wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
These are approximate distances, there is no need to measure anything. Kimi could have moved over slightly to the right, so long as he left at least a car's width between him and the wall. Unfortunately he left less than a car's width. You are just frustrated that I have presented the solution that would have allowed racing here whilst also avoiding contact, hence your immature response.
Right... alright let's discuss this then. Would you start by disclosing which rule states that in this case Kimi had to leave a car's width of room? If you can find that rule, we'll continue on from there.


The rule is you cannot crowd another driver off the track, and the talk of a car's width of space has been brought up many times and was the reason for Hamilton not getting a penalty against Danny Ric at Monaco 2018 for example, because he left space.

Back to you.
OK, how do you decide that Kimi was deliberately crowding Max off the track? Because the word deliberate is in the actual rule, and it is important. According to Max himself after the race, Kimi didn't do it on purpose. So it was not deliberate, and the crowding rule is not applicable.

I know the rule about leaving a car's width is mentioned often. Even by drivers who should know what it says and still get it wrong. So, would you explain why you think it applied in this case, please?


It is turn 1 on lap 1 so you have to be aware of other cars around you and take the first turn sub-optimally to avoid contact. This is why the 20th place driver is 15+ seconds off the leader at the end of the first lap, because he took the opening corners sub-optimally to avoid ramming other cars. This cost him tonnes of time so why should he do this? Why can't he just race through turn 1 at 100% racing speed and on the racing line? Because he has a duty of care to not crash into others.

Cars need to brake earlier for turn 1 on lap 1 to avoid shunting the cars in front up the rear, so why aren't they also required to take a sub-optimal trajectory/pathing through the corner to also avoid contact with drivers that could be on their inside or outside? Many other cars took sub-optimal paths through turn 1 and avoided contact, but the line Kimi chose caused contact. This is a slam dunk driving cock-up from Kimi.

It was a deliberate crowd off because Kimi can't say that he had no realistic way of knowing if a car was on his inside, it is turn 1 of lap 1 for Christ's sake, so of course you have to assume that someone could be there. If you turn in on them anyway, then what you did was deliberate.

Author:  Option or Prime [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Just consider what you are suggesting for a minute:

1) You are saying F1 racing drivers should go slower in the the first corner of a grand prix and give room to all around them. The fastest drivers in the world are never going to do that they want to race in addition they would need swivel heads to do that. Looking backwards is a nice idea but they are going to assume that no-one is going to do anything daft.

2) That the day after they lost a fellow driver an ex world champion deliberately caused an accident.

Verstappen must have been in a hyped up mood because to drive to the next turn at close to racing speed with broken steering suspension is particularly sensible, especially when it is so close to the turn where the accident happened the day before.

I think it is a racing incident, Verstappen was daft to go there, Kimi turned in not expecting a dive down the inside. Even if MV had made the corner I'm not sure where he would have ended up!

Author:  sandman1347 [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I think they both got it wrong there. Kimi should probably have expected that someone might be in his blind spot there and left a little room by default. Max had a bad start and I think he was being overly aggressive there trying to make up for it. He should have known that was likely to happen. Call it a racing incident and move on.


If Kimi leaves a car's width, they don't touch, so only Kimi needed to change what he did and there would have been no crash. Max did nothing wrong here, don't we want the driver that is behind to try and get their car at least partially alongside the car in front, why should he back out? We want them to race so he should try and stick his car up the inside whenever he gets the chance and he has a right not to be turned into when these chances arise. It seems like you want to believe that Max is always at least partially to blame, but he is innocent here, he is only guilty of trying to race Kimi, it is Kimi that is the one that moved laterally into contact, Max moved as far right as he could until the presence of the wall allowed him to move over no further.

Now Max is guilty in Brazil 2018 for an identical incident of being a 'Kimi' and chopping into the inside driver and not giving the nose of their car space, but in Belgium 2019 he is the innocent victim.

Remember we want the driver that is behind to try to get his nose partially past the rear of the car in front, whether that be on the inside or the outside, (to promote and increase 'racing'), and we don't want to see the defending driver moving across into the nose of the attacker's car when this happens.

A racing incident would be something like Hungary 2019 between Hamilton and Bottas where there is such minor overlap of cars going around a quick corner that it is difficult to apportion blame or see who should have backed out of it.

What? This is literally the first comment I have posted about this incident and I said that both drivers got it wrong and it should be chalked up as a racing incident. You take that as me always wanting to blame Max? Honestly the things people say in here are amazing.

As far as what "we want to see"; that is totally irrelevant. Max was not alongside Kimi. He was behind him and he was very aggressive on the brakes into that corner at a very narrow angle. The move wasn't on IMO (and that's what it was - an overtaking attempt). For Max to have gotten through there cleanly, Kimi would have had to let him through in a situation where Max shouldn't have been going for it. It's not always up to the other guy to get out of the way.

I certainly think Kimi would have been better off had he left more space there and he will regret taking the normal racing line the way he did into the first corner here at Spa. It's always a traffic jam there at the start. Max does share some of the blame there though for being too optimistic. You seem to think that Max should be able to be super-aggressive while everyone else should tip toe around to make sure he doesn't hit them. That simply doesn't make sense.

Author:  sandman1347 [ Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

F1 Racer wrote:
Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

No it wasn't against the rules nor was it an incident worthy of review. Seb had a bad start and Lewis was by him; done and dusted. Their cars never even touched. Seb just didn't want to tuck in behind and lose momentum so he gunned it through the runoff area. That's not on Lewis.

Author:  WHoff78 [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Kimi was trying to avoid those around him. I feel like on reflection he would probably do the same again. Max perhaps would do the same again to but only because he tends to take more risks and can afford to. But I would guess that when he's in a championship fight we wouldn't see max take a similar risk if he has any sense. Right now there's far less pressure on those decisions for Max so it's hard to be sure.

Author:  mmi16 [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

Max made a move of no probability and got the result such a move pays.

Author:  DFWdude [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

I've read countless times through the years, how a driver, seeing (or not seeing) a driver next to hiim, feels entitled to take his normal apex at a corner because he was well ahead at turn in. All this "making room" argument is bullocks, triggered by VER brake-testing himself into a debatable position of entitlement. Someone playing it safe would not have done so, redirecting us to the previous sentence.

Had VER not broken and continued on, the stewards would have considered whether he caused an accident with RAI.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

sandman1347 wrote:
What? This is literally the first comment I have posted about this incident and I said that both drivers got it wrong and it should be chalked up as a racing incident. You take that as me always wanting to blame Max? Honestly the things people say in here are amazing.

As far as what "we want to see"; that is totally irrelevant. Max was not alongside Kimi. He was behind him and he was very aggressive on the brakes into that corner at a very narrow angle. The move wasn't on IMO (and that's what it was - an overtaking attempt). For Max to have gotten through there cleanly, Kimi would have had to let him through in a situation where Max shouldn't have been going for it. It's not always up to the other guy to get out of the way.

I certainly think Kimi would have been better off had he left more space there and he will regret taking the normal racing line the way he did into the first corner here at Spa. It's always a traffic jam there at the start. Max does share some of the blame there though for being too optimistic. You seem to think that Max should be able to be super-aggressive while everyone else should tip toe around to make sure he doesn't hit them. That simply doesn't make sense.


What you are saying doesn't make sense though. You are suggesting that Kimi should have left room, in which case this means that Max wouldn't be driving optimistically by attempting a pass on the inside as he would know that Kimi was correctly giving him space. Why is it optimistic if you are assuming that the other driver will not try to crash into you. Didn't Senna say to Jackie Stewart that if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver. No one holds it against Damon Hill in Australia 1994 for going for a gap on the inside, they hold it against Schumacher for steering across into him like Kimi did to Max in Belgium.

I think you need to start your argument again and base it only on complete logic here.

I don't think it was deliberate from Kimi, I think it was careless and poor driving that he did without thinking and it was easily avoidable, hence a penalty should be given to him. Also Max had enough of his car alongside to be regarded as alongside, otherwise there would not have been such a heavy impact. Are you only counting cars perfectly in alignment to be alongside each other now? I don't think that makes sense.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

No it wasn't against the rules nor was it an incident worthy of review. Seb had a bad start and Lewis was by him; done and dusted. Their cars never even touched. Seb just didn't want to tuck in behind and lose momentum so he gunned it through the runoff area. That's not on Lewis.


Does Lewis drive fully to the exit edge of the track? I believe that he does with Vettel alongside him, therefore he crowded Vettel off, and did the same thing that Vettel did to him in Canada.

What you are saying is that Vettel accelerated into the run off area so that he could pass Lewis 10 seconds later by getting a good run on him, therefore Vettel should be penalised.

At least one of them did something wrong there.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

DFWdude wrote:
I've read countless times through the years, how a driver, seeing (or not seeing) a driver next to hiim, feels entitled to take his normal apex at a corner because he was well ahead at turn in. All this "making room" argument is bullocks, triggered by VER brake-testing himself into a debatable position of entitlement. Someone playing it safe would not have done so, redirecting us to the previous sentence.

Had VER not broken and continued on, the stewards would have considered whether he caused an accident with RAI.


Then why did all the drivers leave space for each other at the previous race into the hairpin of turn 1 at Hungary? It is not quite as tight a corner as Spa, but it's still fairly tight as corners go and yet everyone made it round without getting chopped across or contact.

Author:  jono794 [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

F1 Racer wrote:
Didn't Senna say to Jackie Stewart that if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver.


He did. As justification for a horrific act of poor sportsmanship that could have resulted in injuries or worse.

F1 Racer wrote:
Also Max had enough of his car alongside to be regarded as alongside, otherwise there would not have been such a heavy impact.


The impact was Max's front to Kimi's rear. This is 'alongside' in your book I assume.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

jono794 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Didn't Senna say to Jackie Stewart that if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver.


He did. As justification for a horrific act of poor sportsmanship that could have resulted in injuries or worse.

F1 Racer wrote:
Also Max had enough of his car alongside to be regarded as alongside, otherwise there would not have been such a heavy impact.


The impact was Max's front to Kimi's rear. This is 'alongside' in your book I assume.


At the point of corner entry, (when Kimi should be making his decision about what line he should take through the corner), Max has about 70% of his car length overlapping with Kimi's car. That is massively alongside and Max is fully justified in going for this overtaking move.

About a second later at the corner apex where they actually touch, Max has about 30% of his car overlapping, (because Kimi is incorrectly taking a faster line through the corner than Max and so was able to pull away a little bit on Max over that period of a second). If Kimi had maintained his car following a middling path through the corner, (like the line Bottas took), then there would be more than 30% of the car's overlapping at the apex but also no contact either and Max and Kimi would have exited the corner side by side and free to race going downhill into the next section of the track.

So yes, 30% to 70% of your car overlapping with the other car, is a pretty serious amount of overlapping that counts as 'alongside' in my book.

Also, looking at the replay there is PLENTY of space to Kimi's left so it wasn't like he was being squeezed himself by another driver. Please look at the overhead replay of the incident on youtube, look at it a few times pausing and unpausing to take in what the cars are doing and you will see that Kimi taking the line he did was completely unecessary and completely avoidable. The crash occurred 100% down to Kimi and where he chose to put his car.

Author:  F1 Racer [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Author:  sandman1347 [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What? This is literally the first comment I have posted about this incident and I said that both drivers got it wrong and it should be chalked up as a racing incident. You take that as me always wanting to blame Max? Honestly the things people say in here are amazing.

As far as what "we want to see"; that is totally irrelevant. Max was not alongside Kimi. He was behind him and he was very aggressive on the brakes into that corner at a very narrow angle. The move wasn't on IMO (and that's what it was - an overtaking attempt). For Max to have gotten through there cleanly, Kimi would have had to let him through in a situation where Max shouldn't have been going for it. It's not always up to the other guy to get out of the way.

I certainly think Kimi would have been better off had he left more space there and he will regret taking the normal racing line the way he did into the first corner here at Spa. It's always a traffic jam there at the start. Max does share some of the blame there though for being too optimistic. You seem to think that Max should be able to be super-aggressive while everyone else should tip toe around to make sure he doesn't hit them. That simply doesn't make sense.


What you are saying doesn't make sense though. You are suggesting that Kimi should have left room, in which case this means that Max wouldn't be driving optimistically by attempting a pass on the inside as he would know that Kimi was correctly giving him space. Why is it optimistic if you are assuming that the other driver will not try to crash into you. Didn't Senna say to Jackie Stewart that if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver. No one holds it against Damon Hill in Australia 1994 for going for a gap on the inside, they hold it against Schumacher for steering across into him like Kimi did to Max in Belgium.

I think you need to start your argument again and base it only on complete logic here.

I don't think it was deliberate from Kimi, I think it was careless and poor driving that he did without thinking and it was easily avoidable, hence a penalty should be given to him. Also Max had enough of his car alongside to be regarded as alongside, otherwise there would not have been such a heavy impact. Are you only counting cars perfectly in alignment to be alongside each other now? I don't think that makes sense.

Nope. I said Kimi would have been better off had he left more space (which is obvious due to the fact that the collision ruined his race). Max would also have been better off had he not tried to lunge there from so far back. You are only looking at this from one side apparently, though I cannot understand why that makes sense for you. Max was NOT alongside Raikkonen. He pulled partially alongside under braking due to braking extremely late into the corner. Before braking, Kimi was clearly in front. Max braked so late that he would have always made contact there; if not where they actually did then on exit as he ran wide. The move was not on I'm afraid.

As for your Senna, Schumacher comparisons; not at all a good fit. Michael had just crashed and damaged his car and he was weaving in order to take Damon out. Not even remotely comparable. Let's not be ridiculous here. As for the Senna interview; going for a gap several laps into a race where you are battling with one car is not the same as lunging into the first corner with cars all around you.

Author:  sandman1347 [ Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Verstappen / Kimi turn one collision

F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Also, why is no one mentioning about Lewis crowding Seb off the track at the same corner? It looked naughty what he did, just so that he could have great acceleration down the hill, and is completely different to the line he took at turn 1 in Baku 2019 with Bottas, where he delayed getting on the power at corner exit.

Basically because there is plenty of outside run-off area and because there was immediate focus drawn to the Kimi/Max crash, the Lewis/Seb incident got no attention at all, but it was still poor driving etiquette and also was against the rules.

No it wasn't against the rules nor was it an incident worthy of review. Seb had a bad start and Lewis was by him; done and dusted. Their cars never even touched. Seb just didn't want to tuck in behind and lose momentum so he gunned it through the runoff area. That's not on Lewis.


Does Lewis drive fully to the exit edge of the track? I believe that he does with Vettel alongside him, therefore he crowded Vettel off, and did the same thing that Vettel did to him in Canada.

What you are saying is that Vettel accelerated into the run off area so that he could pass Lewis 10 seconds later by getting a good run on him, therefore Vettel should be penalised.

At least one of them did something wrong there.

No that's not even remotely the same thing as in Canada Vettel ran all 4 wheels off the circuit and then returned to the track in Hamilton's path; causing him to hit the brakes. How do you see that as being the same? I honestly don't know what you are watching man.

There doesn't need to be a penalty for every thing that happens in a race. No penalty was warranted there for either of them. It's crowded at the first corner and you have to make split second decisions to avoid contact while still racing for position. I don't want to see the sport over-policed like you seem to.

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