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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:05 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.


...and Alonso! :thumbup: :nod:

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.


Was not saying that Fernando did anything wrong in particular but, failure to qualify will not help his claim to be one of the greatest racing drivers ever.

I suspect his legacy and abilities are well enough established that few will be laying any significant part of the blame for non-qualification on him or would be re-assessing his talent as a result.


There is a lot of disagreement as to the greatness of Fernando's career. He has thrown away a lot of opportunities for wins and greatness. He is widely known for making very bad career decisions. Going to Indy with an under-prepared team will likely be seen as another bad decision on his part even if he had little choice after Honda blackballed him. If he comes back in a year or two and does well or wins, this will be forgiven or even seen as a mark of tenacity in pursuit of a goal.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
...and Alonso! :thumbup: :nod:

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.


Was not saying that Fernando did anything wrong in particular but, failure to qualify will not help his claim to be one of the greatest racing drivers ever.

I suspect his legacy and abilities are well enough established that few will be laying any significant part of the blame for non-qualification on him or would be re-assessing his talent as a result.


There is a lot of disagreement as to the greatness of Fernando's career. He has thrown away a lot of opportunities for wins and greatness. He is widely known for making very bad career decisions. Going to Indy with an under-prepared team will likely be seen as another bad decision on his part even if he had little choice after Honda blackballed him. If he comes back in a year or two and does well or wins, this will be forgiven or even seen as a mark of tenacity in pursuit of a goal.

Well he already produced a pretty impressive display in 2017 so I doubt this year's would be given much weight over that tbh


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:02 pm 
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Ouch.. this one will hurt.
I am not surprised one bit(and I am glad) to see both Zak Brown and Alonso receive this good beating.

The fact that they decided to miss Monaco Gp(2017) to do Indy instead and put all the blame on Honda(best chassis bla bla LOL) for their F1 fiasco should tell you all you need to know about their focus and professionalism.

A bunch of amateurs with delusion of grandeur.
Both should be removed ASAP(I have been saying this for many years now. It is good now that many are opening their eyes). What a farce. Stop abusing the McLaren brand and go away.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I suspect his legacy and abilities are well enough established that few will be laying any significant part of the blame for non-qualification on him or would be re-assessing his talent as a result.


There is a lot of disagreement as to the greatness of Fernando's career. He has thrown away a lot of opportunities for wins and greatness. He is widely known for making very bad career decisions. Going to Indy with an under-prepared team will likely be seen as another bad decision on his part even if he had little choice after Honda blackballed him. If he comes back in a year or two and does well or wins, this will be forgiven or even seen as a mark of tenacity in pursuit of a goal.

I think he ultimately underestimated the challenge of winning due to the perfect circumstances of his first entry into the race back in 2017. At that time, he was very easily able to challenge at the front and, if not for the engine failure, he had a pretty good chance of winning the race. He led a large portion of the race. In many ways, this year's entry was the polar opposite of how he entered WEC (from a position where losing was less likely than winning). So he has made some good decisions over the years.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:07 am 
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I've been sitting back and watching this whole "Alonso Goes to Indy" thing, and I have to admit I do not understand what McLaren are doing or why. First off, the 800 lb. gorilla in the room: Alonso failed to make the show because he crashed the car and lost two days of practice. Despite all of their troubles, I don't think anyone can doubt McLaren and Alonso could have found the tiny margin they were ultimately missing with almost twice the practice time. Alonso admitted the crash was due to a mistake by him alone. Yet, at the end of the day, McLaren are apologizing to him! Why is this once great team so beholden to a driver who not only does not drive for them anymore, but who has made it perfectly clear that he has no intention of ever driving for them again unless they can deliver a championship winning car? This whole Indy escapade was just an attempt to placate their former driver, but why? What has Alonso done for McLaren that they are so willing to dilute the team's resources, spend huge amounts of money, and risk the embarrassment they are now facing just so one former employee can chase an ego trip? Is it the loyalty he showed them in 2007? Is it because of the strong ties he helped them forge with engine partner Honda, which is now just coming good? Does he actually own the company? What other team would allow a former driver to turn it into his own personal playground, and what is McLaren getting in return for that?

I am sure some will interpret the above as an Alonso bash, which is not my intention at all. It's a McLaren bash, pure and simple. The tail is wagging the dog, and it doesn't seem to even know. For the record, I have followed Alonso's entire career and have nothing but respect for him as a driver. I was extremely happy for him when he finally dethroned Schumi in 2005, and his title defense in 2006 was masterful. He's made some unfortunate career choices and has sometimes not dealt well with adversity, but he's driven like a true champion and put it all on the line every time he gets in the car.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:22 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
ptr250 wrote:
This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.


...and Alonso! :thumbup: :nod:

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.


Was not saying that Fernando did anything wrong in particular but, failure to qualify will not help his claim to be one of the greatest racing drivers ever.


He did 5 faultless runs in one day in an event that scares drivers doing just one of them and another faultless run on an entirely new set up that they'd never ran before the next day, which would've been more than enough to qualify if his team had just got his gear ratios right but even that was beyond them.

I don't think its hurt his standing as a driver one iota, he did his part on the track over both days. Who he chooses to compete with however looks as dodgy as ever but that's got nothing to do with his actual driving. The determination to do it with Macca is what cost him, he had other offers according to Pruett but wanting to do it with Macca took Andretti out of the picture and neither Penske or ECR wanted the McAlonso "circus" around them so they were stuck with Carlin.

But on the flipside considering they were able to purchase the dampers/set ups etc..It's arguable they didn't actually need any official hook up as Carlin would've still been enough if they'd only just got the gear ratios right on the bought set up which is pretty hilarious really. We'd have never even known about all the other failures in management and running with Chevvy would've looked a stroke of genius going by the performance shown so far.

The fine margins of motorsport I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:38 am 
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DanF wrote:
I've been sitting back and watching this whole "Alonso Goes to Indy" thing, and I have to admit I do not understand what McLaren are doing or why. First off, the 800 lb. gorilla in the room: Alonso failed to make the show because he crashed the car and lost two days of practice. Despite all of their troubles, I don't think anyone can doubt McLaren and Alonso could have found the tiny margin they were ultimately missing with almost twice the practice time. Alonso admitted the crash was due to a mistake by him alone. Yet, at the end of the day, McLaren are apologizing to him! Why is this once great team so beholden to a driver who not only does not drive for them anymore, but who has made it perfectly clear that he has no intention of ever driving for them again unless they can deliver a championship winning car? This whole Indy escapade was just an attempt to placate their former driver, but why? What has Alonso done for McLaren that they are so willing to dilute the team's resources, spend huge amounts of money, and risk the embarrassment they are now facing just so one former employee can chase an ego trip? Is it the loyalty he showed them in 2007? Is it because of the strong ties he helped them forge with engine partner Honda, which is now just coming good? Does he actually own the company? What other team would allow a former driver to turn it into his own personal playground, and what is McLaren getting in return for that?

I am sure some will interpret the above as an Alonso bash, which is not my intention at all. It's a McLaren bash, pure and simple. The tail is wagging the dog, and it doesn't seem to even know. For the record, I have followed Alonso's entire career and have nothing but respect for him as a driver. I was extremely happy for him when he finally dethroned Schumi in 2005, and his title defense in 2006 was masterful. He's made some unfortunate career choices and has sometimes not dealt well with adversity, but he's driven like a true champion and put it all on the line every time he gets in the car.


How do you blame a crash on Wednesday for a driver missing out when a guy crashed on Saturday and still made it? McLaren took 30 hours getting the car ready because of a paint and set up issue whereas a team that actually knew what they were doing and with a fraction of the budget did it in 3hrs. Crashes happen and if he'd done it on Saturday and missed out I could understand but he literally crashed 3 days before Hinch did and Hinch still made it. :lol:

That's a team problem and why they're apologising, they were awful before the crash and after it, the handling was atrocious and it only looked a stable car after they had bought the set up and parts from another team. He did 5 runs in a poor handling car in one day and then asked him to do another one on parts and set ups they'd never ran and didn't know worked or not,which he then did without lifting once. But because they also managed to mess up the gear ratios he never made the cut.

Of course they apologised, its an embarrassing list of mistakes while he's out there risking his butt in sub par machinery. You plan for a crash, it's a punishing discipline, but if they were even half as competent as any other team out there then he could've crashed on Saturday and still made it.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:30 am 
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I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:43 am 
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https://racer.com/2019/05/20/miller-was ... -surprise/

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:16 am 
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@ Lotus 49. Every crash is different. Some apparently take longer to repair. In this case, the crashed car was not repairable and the team did not have a spare car ready. I'm pretty sure the driver knew that before turning even one lap. A little extra caution while the car was still being sorted would have made all the difference. Still, stuff happens, I certainly get that, but the team should not be apologizing to the driver. He was at least as much to blame for the fiasco. Just don't get what's going on there.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:04 am 
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DanF wrote:
@ Lotus 49. Every crash is different. Some apparently take longer to repair. In this case, the crashed car was not repairable and the team did not have a spare car ready. I'm pretty sure the driver knew that before turning even one lap. A little extra caution while the car was still being sorted would have made all the difference. Still, stuff happens, I certainly get that, but the team should not be apologizing to the driver. He was at least as much to blame for the fiasco. Just don't get what's going on there.


More cars crashed and didn't take anywhere near 30hrs to prepare the 2nd car, they didn't have to try and repair anything. Teams with a fraction of the budget crashed closer to the weekend and even during qualifying and they still got the spare car out. Even with the crash if they'd just got the gear ratio right then they'd have still qualified even with the crash so how is the crash responsible for not qualifying?

How is Alonso at least as much to blame for not having a steering wheel ready for the Texas test, having the wrong paint job on the spare car, taking 30 days to correct the paint job, not setting up the spare car, taking 30hrs to then set the spare car up, taking an hour to find an electrical fault, having several other electrical faults, buying the wrong tire sensors, messing up the conversion to inches on the ride height on the set up they had to buy from Andretti because their own dampers sucked so much and left the car borderline undriveable and then finally the gear ratio issue which ultimately was what cost them the 000.019km/h they needed on Sunday.

He's a driver, he can't be partly responsible for managing every aspect of the entire project, that's ridiculous. And when drivers crash 3 days after Alonso did and still make the show its pretty moot to point to that which is why he's getting those apologies from the team because it was their mistakes on their side which ultimately cost him while he was faultless across 6 runs on the weekend. If he'd crashed in Qualifying and the team were perfect then he'd obviously be the one doing the apologising like we see all the time from drivers, it's not rocket science here.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:14 am 
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DanF wrote:
I've been sitting back and watching this whole "Alonso Goes to Indy" thing, and I have to admit I do not understand what McLaren are doing or why. First off, the 800 lb. gorilla in the room: Alonso failed to make the show because he crashed the car and lost two days of practice. Despite all of their troubles, I don't think anyone can doubt McLaren and Alonso could have found the tiny margin they were ultimately missing with almost twice the practice time. Alonso admitted the crash was due to a mistake by him alone. Yet, at the end of the day, McLaren are apologizing to him! Why is this once great team so beholden to a driver who not only does not drive for them anymore, but who has made it perfectly clear that he has no intention of ever driving for them again unless they can deliver a championship winning car? This whole Indy escapade was just an attempt to placate their former driver, but why? What has Alonso done for McLaren that they are so willing to dilute the team's resources, spend huge amounts of money, and risk the embarrassment they are now facing just so one former employee can chase an ego trip? Is it the loyalty he showed them in 2007? Is it because of the strong ties he helped them forge with engine partner Honda, which is now just coming good? Does he actually own the company? What other team would allow a former driver to turn it into his own personal playground, and what is McLaren getting in return for that?

I am sure some will interpret the above as an Alonso bash, which is not my intention at all. It's a McLaren bash, pure and simple. The tail is wagging the dog, and it doesn't seem to even know. For the record, I have followed Alonso's entire career and have nothing but respect for him as a driver. I was extremely happy for him when he finally dethroned Schumi in 2005, and his title defense in 2006 was masterful. He's made some unfortunate career choices and has sometimes not dealt well with adversity, but he's driven like a true champion and put it all on the line every time he gets in the car.

I'll leave the crash and failure to qualify alone but I do agree with your larger point about the relationship between Mclaren and Fernando Alonso. Since coming back to the team ahead of the 2015 season; this relationship has never worked. It hasn't been productive for either party. McLaren failed to produce a car capable of competing at the front. He was there for 4 seasons and they never even came close. In fact, this current season for Mclaren is already superior to any year they had while Alonso was there in terms of their competitiveness. It's not just that they failed to win; they failed to even make meaningful progress year-on-year. There was some improvement between 2015 and 2016 but then immediate regression in 2017 and even more deterioration in 2018. There was no significant improvement over time and, if one were to be critical, one might point out that Alonso did not have a galvanizing impact on the team.

I see Fernando Alonso as a sort of Donald Trump-like character in some ways (although with the actual talent to back up his attitude). When he gets involved in something; that thing becomes all about him. He seems able to effectively enlist sycophants and worshipers; who are willing to placate his ego and put up with his antics, however, his impact on the bigger picture is highly questionable. His many derisive and insulting public comments about the team and it's performance (almost always including some tidbit about how he has driven perfectly or has extracted the maximum possible from the car) certainly don't strike me as helpful or endearing.

Above all, there is no logical reason why McLaren are spending so much time and energy on Fernando Alonso at this stage. I thought it was a stretch in 2017 for them to fund his Indy 500 entry while allowing him to sit out the Monaco GP of all races! That was patently absurd in hindsight; especially because that was one of few races where McLaren actually had a shot at points. At least then he was driving for them. Now he is not. Why are they still doing this? It seems that some part of this organization is still clinging to the notion that they might be very close to delivering a championship winning car and that they might need Alonso when that happens. This is very bad leadership. They have two young drivers (one of whom is in his rookie season and showing a lot of promise) and the message that they are sending them with this hovering specter of Alonso is that, ultimately, if there is a massive upturn in performance, they will be shuffled out off to the side. Move on already!

Even if you go back to Alonso's initial involvement with the team back in 2007, it was disastrous. His arrival just so happened to coincide with the arrival of Lewis Hamilton; a driver who McLaren sponsored through the junior ranks going all the way back to karts and who ultimately won them their last title. Hamilton could have won them the title that year too if not for the internal chaos between him and Alonso. Don't get me wrong; Alonso could also have won that title without the internal conflict but the point is that things worked out worse with him there than they would have if he was not there. The whole blackmailing thing and all of the craziness in the press just served to create a massive financial and public relations nightmare. I only bring this up to point out that there is no analysis of Alonso's time with McLaren that would logically lead you to an understanding of their current slavish devotion to him. It just doesn't make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:41 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
DanF wrote:
I've been sitting back and watching this whole "Alonso Goes to Indy" thing, and I have to admit I do not understand what McLaren are doing or why. First off, the 800 lb. gorilla in the room: Alonso failed to make the show because he crashed the car and lost two days of practice. Despite all of their troubles, I don't think anyone can doubt McLaren and Alonso could have found the tiny margin they were ultimately missing with almost twice the practice time. Alonso admitted the crash was due to a mistake by him alone. Yet, at the end of the day, McLaren are apologizing to him! Why is this once great team so beholden to a driver who not only does not drive for them anymore, but who has made it perfectly clear that he has no intention of ever driving for them again unless they can deliver a championship winning car? This whole Indy escapade was just an attempt to placate their former driver, but why? What has Alonso done for McLaren that they are so willing to dilute the team's resources, spend huge amounts of money, and risk the embarrassment they are now facing just so one former employee can chase an ego trip? Is it the loyalty he showed them in 2007? Is it because of the strong ties he helped them forge with engine partner Honda, which is now just coming good? Does he actually own the company? What other team would allow a former driver to turn it into his own personal playground, and what is McLaren getting in return for that?

I am sure some will interpret the above as an Alonso bash, which is not my intention at all. It's a McLaren bash, pure and simple. The tail is wagging the dog, and it doesn't seem to even know. For the record, I have followed Alonso's entire career and have nothing but respect for him as a driver. I was extremely happy for him when he finally dethroned Schumi in 2005, and his title defense in 2006 was masterful. He's made some unfortunate career choices and has sometimes not dealt well with adversity, but he's driven like a true champion and put it all on the line every time he gets in the car.

I'll leave the crash and failure to qualify alone but I do agree with your larger point about the relationship between Mclaren and Fernando Alonso. Since coming back to the team ahead of the 2015 season; this relationship has never worked. It hasn't been productive for either party. McLaren failed to produce a car capable of competing at the front. He was there for 4 seasons and they never even came close. In fact, this current season for Mclaren is already superior to any year they had while Alonso was there in terms of their competitiveness. It's not just that they failed to win; they failed to even make meaningful progress year-on-year. There was some improvement between 2015 and 2016 but then immediate regression in 2017 and even more deterioration in 2018. There was no significant improvement over time and, if one were to be critical, one might point out that Alonso did not have a galvanizing impact on the team.

I see Fernando Alonso as a sort of Donald Trump-like character in some ways (although with the actual talent to back up his attitude). When he gets involved in something; that thing becomes all about him. He seems able to effectively enlist sycophants and worshipers; who are willing to placate his ego and put up with his antics, however, his impact on the bigger picture is highly questionable. His many derisive and insulting public comments about the team and it's performance (almost always including some tidbit about how he has driven perfectly or has extracted the maximum possible from the car) certainly don't strike me as helpful or endearing.

Above all, there is no logical reason why McLaren are spending so much time and energy on Fernando Alonso at this stage. I thought it was a stretch in 2017 for them to fund his Indy 500 entry while allowing him to sit out the Monaco GP of all races! That was patently absurd in hindsight; especially because that was one of few races where McLaren actually had a shot at points. At least then he was driving for them. Now he is not. Why are they still doing this? It seems that some part of this organization is still clinging to the notion that they might be very close to delivering a championship winning car and that they might need Alonso when that happens. This is very bad leadership. They have two young drivers (one of whom is in his rookie season and showing a lot of promise) and the message that they are sending them with this hovering specter of Alonso is that, ultimately, if there is a massive upturn in performance, they will be shuffled out off to the side. Move on already!

Even if you go back to Alonso's initial involvement with the team back in 2007, it was disastrous. His arrival just so happened to coincide with the arrival of Lewis Hamilton; a driver who McLaren sponsored through the junior ranks going all the way back to karts and who ultimately won them their last title. Hamilton could have won them the title that year too if not for the internal chaos between him and Alonso. Don't get me wrong; Alonso could also have won that title without the internal conflict but the point is that things worked out worse with him there than they would have if he was not there. The whole blackmailing thing and all of the craziness in the press just served to create a massive financial and public relations nightmare. I only bring this up to point out that there is no analysis of Alonso's time with McLaren that would logically lead you to an understanding of their current slavish devotion to him. It just doesn't make sense.


I don't see a slavish devotion, they use him because he brings boatloads of attention at a time where their competitiveness and standing in F1 wouldn't. Zak wants to increase McLaren's brand in the States in particular, he has an interest in other racing series himself and thinks that's a route that can help their brand while the F1 team struggles and Alonso's desire to race in other series, his ability and reputation as one of the best drivers in the World and the attention he garners at every event helps them in both of those areas.

I think you're over thinking it. Zak has been able to pull in a bunch of sponsors I'm sure in part because of the attention they are getting from doing other series with Alonso. They literally just partnered with Arrow from the 500 for example despite their failings.

I don't think they owe each other anything, its just mutually beneficial for the time being at least. I don't think if McLaren had a different boss with no interest in other series they'd be doing it tbh. Nor do I think if they'd managed to win the 500 Alonso would go back even if Zak took McLaren back. It just works for both just now. The F1 stint is self explanatory.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 9:20 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Above all, there is no logical reason why McLaren are spending so much time and energy on Fernando Alonso at this stage.

He's just that good, simple as. Lewis Hamilton is the only other driver in the world on his level. And maybe Max Verstappen

For me, there's no logical reason why Alonso is spending so much time and energy on McLaren. Zak Brown is talking about racing McLarens in F1, Indy and WEC - maybe he sees a drive for life hopping around whichever category he feels like. But if this entire event doesn't send Alonso running a mile I don't know what will. I mean, I'm pretty sure an Indy team like Andretti would snap him up in a heartbeat

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:58 am 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Above all, there is no logical reason why McLaren are spending so much time and energy on Fernando Alonso at this stage.

He's just that good, simple as. Lewis Hamilton is the only other driver in the world on his level. And maybe Max Verstappen

For me, there's no logical reason why Alonso is spending so much time and energy on McLaren. Zak Brown is talking about racing McLarens in F1, Indy and WEC - maybe he sees a drive for life hopping around whichever category he feels like. But if this entire event doesn't send Alonso running a mile I don't know what will. I mean, I'm pretty sure an Indy team like Andretti would snap him up in a heartbeat


You have your answer right there in your post and others above you.
McLaren have nothing to gain and unlike Alonso who has nothing to lose.

You see? If they fail, people will blame McLaren not Alonso.
Alonso is only there for the glory and "easy" championship otherwise he would have done a full season.

McLaren would have been better off with another pair of drivers many years ago and despite what other think, they would have been in a much better shape now.

I have no idea how people like Zak took control of such an iconic team like McLaren in the first place. Just sad.

The need to bring into the conversation Hamilton or Verstappen just to validate Alonso "reputation" is the reason why he is chasing his own tail now.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 11:15 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Above all, there is no logical reason why McLaren are spending so much time and energy on Fernando Alonso at this stage.

He's just that good, simple as. Lewis Hamilton is the only other driver in the world on his level. And maybe Max Verstappen

For me, there's no logical reason why Alonso is spending so much time and energy on McLaren. Zak Brown is talking about racing McLarens in F1, Indy and WEC - maybe he sees a drive for life hopping around whichever category he feels like. But if this entire event doesn't send Alonso running a mile I don't know what will. I mean, I'm pretty sure an Indy team like Andretti would snap him up in a heartbeat


You have your answer right there in your post and others above you.
McLaren have nothing to gain and unlike Alonso who has nothing to lose.

You see? If they fail, people will blame McLaren not Alonso.
Alonso is only there for the glory and "easy" championship otherwise he would have done a full season.

McLaren would have been better off with another pair of drivers many years ago and despite what other think, they would have been in a much better shape now.

I have no idea how people like Zak took control of such an iconic team like McLaren in the first place. Just sad.

The need to bring into the conversation Hamilton or Verstappen just to validate Alonso "reputation" is the reason why he is chasing his own tail now.

I'm curious how you feel McLaren would have been in a better shape without Alonso when their issues haven't been driver-related?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:22 pm 
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Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.


This is how low this team has sunk.
As it stands McLaren has nothing has nothing to gain from this relationship but it plays into Alonso's hands and has been so for many years.

No sane Team principal would have gave a driver so much power and would have missed the most important(Monaco) GP of the season.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.


This is how low this team has sunk.
As it stands McLaren has nothing has nothing to gain from this relationship but it plays into Alonso's hands and has been so for many years.

No sane Team principal would have gave a driver so much power and would have missed the most important(Monaco) GP of the season.


I think it's hard to argue that at that stage tooling round at the back in Monaco was more important than a good run at success in Indy for Mclaren.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:58 pm 
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rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.


This is how low this team has sunk.
As it stands McLaren has nothing has nothing to gain from this relationship but it plays into Alonso's hands and has been so for many years.

No sane Team principal would have gave a driver so much power and would have missed the most important(Monaco) GP of the season.


I think it's hard to argue that at that stage tooling round at the back in Monaco was more important than a good run at success in Indy for Mclaren.

:thumbup:

The Indy 2017 story was huge for motorsport, huge for IndyCar, huge for Alonso, huge for McLaren, huge for Andretti. Ultimately the only person that the whole thing ended up negatively impacting was Pascal Wehrlein

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

The idea of an unofficial triple crown has always been around. At least since the '60s. He hasn't invented it

Also, he never said that a driver must prove themselves in different categories. He quite openly said go win 8 F1 titles or go win motorsport's biggest races. And there is a current Mercedes F1 driver who could well achieve 8 titles, which would fit Alonso's definition of being the greatest

Anyway winning the Indy 500 is one of the greatest achievements in motorsport, regardless of your opinion on the race

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:14 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.


This is how low this team has sunk.
As it stands McLaren has nothing has nothing to gain from this relationship but it plays into Alonso's hands and has been so for many years.

No sane Team principal would have gave a driver so much power and would have missed the most important(Monaco) GP of the season.


I think it's hard to argue that at that stage tooling round at the back in Monaco was more important than a good run at success in Indy for Mclaren.

:thumbup:

The Indy 2017 story was huge for motorsport, huge for IndyCar, huge for Alonso, huge for McLaren, huge for Andretti. Ultimately the only person that the whole thing ended up negatively impacting was Pascal Wehrlein


The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:23 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.


This is how low this team has sunk.
As it stands McLaren has nothing has nothing to gain from this relationship but it plays into Alonso's hands and has been so for many years.

No sane Team principal would have gave a driver so much power and would have missed the most important(Monaco) GP of the season.


I think it's hard to argue that at that stage tooling round at the back in Monaco was more important than a good run at success in Indy for Mclaren.

:thumbup:

The Indy 2017 story was huge for motorsport, huge for IndyCar, huge for Alonso, huge for McLaren, huge for Andretti. Ultimately the only person that the whole thing ended up negatively impacting was Pascal Wehrlein


The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
rodH wrote:
I am kind of wondering what Alonso's next move is going to be and where he and McLaren stand. Will he come back to indy, or was that just an idea when he had a top running car (at Andretti) and now that it looks like its going to take much more work, will he just forget about it? If he and McLaren separate, will he run any indycar races or do another series? Also, will McLaren want to save face and want to develop and come back to indy (and indycar)? I am a huge Alonso fan, but I am not sure what his best move would be. I'd like to see Andretti give him a ride for a full or part season (IF they can talk Honda into letting that happen). The current situation at Penske with who they have and possibly who might come in (Rossi?), I am not sure they have any room. Ganassi is now a 2 team effort, and they certainly have resources for much more (again, a Honda issue?). Could anyone else pay him enough to even tempt him? Is he worried that maybe succeeding in indycar might be a little more difficult than her previously thought? (what would happen if he were at a big team and only won a couple of races and didn't win the series? Could this tarnish his status? At the same time, what if he did compete in indycar for a couple/few years and won a championship? That could look very good on his CV....

I'd venture to say with his abilities, he would have a better chance of winning the whole series than he does at winning the indy500, because the 500 takes soooo much luck and timing, etc...). At any rate, its going to be interesting to see, I just hope he doesn't go to Japan like Button or be hidden from TV (for most people) in a deal doing Dakar or something similar. After he left indy quali, I got the impression that he didn't want to commit and that he was so bummed that he just needs to step away and clear his mind and re-evaluate what options he has and what he is willing to commit to. I almost think he may want to do indycar just to save face, even if he only does win a few races, just so show what he can do (at least thats what I am kind of hoping).

I agree that Alonso would have more chance of winning the series than the Indy500 because that tends to be a bit of a lottery however I would question how much Alonso actually respects the series to do a full season and also the Indy500 itself, would you ever see him compete in the race again if he actually won it?

I see the only importance of the race to him as being obtaining this mythical triple crown he has created for himself and this rhetoric that a driver must prove himself in several series in order to be considered great something I don't think he would be pedaling if the was driving a Mercedes F1 car?

So looking at the Indy500 maybe a more deserved winner is someone who thinks it's a great achievement in itself rather than someone who merely sees it as some kind of bucket list for this mythical triple crown being pedaled it seems as being better that winning multiple F1 WDC's, which I see more of as a driver disappointed with how his F1 career petered out in terms of achievement after starting out at the time as the youngest F1 double WDC.

I don't know why you would call it a mythical triple crown when it even has its own Wikipedia page so it's not like it's something Alonso has made up or "created for himself." And I agree that it would probably not be quite as important to him if he was in a Mercedes F1 car but he's not so he has to look at whatever other consolation prize he can get surely? I don't see why that's something to be derided.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:35 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?


I'm saying that Mclaren got more out of Alonso running well at Indy in 2017 rather than tooling round at that back in Monaco. Nothing more.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?


I'm saying that Mclaren got more out of Alonso running well at Indy in 2017 rather than tooling round at that back in Monaco. Nothing more.


I have stopped taking them(the current management) seriously after the 2017 Indy trip.
I have supported McLaren long before Alonso ever turned a wheel for them.
It once meant excellence and dedication to the craft, but now they have to resort to cheap tactics and dubious marketing tricks like a new HAAS team.
All that matters now is to first rename the cars and just use papaya color and voila.

A very sad state of affairs indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

I also have my doubts on exactly how much the publicity is worth, but I don't think I'd agree with the focusing on improving their car bit. I very much doubt they are pulling resources from their F1 team to focus on Indy and I don't see why they can't do both?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:42 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?


I'm saying that Mclaren got more out of Alonso running well at Indy in 2017 rather than tooling round at that back in Monaco. Nothing more.


I have stopped taking them(the current management) seriously after the 2017 Indy trip.
I have supported McLaren long before Alonso ever turned a wheel for them.
It once meant excellence and dedication to the craft, but now they have to resort to cheap tactics and dubious marketing tricks like a new HAAS team.
All that matters now is to first rename the cars and just use papaya color and voila.

A very sad state of affairs indeed.


Well they gained respect from me by be willing to do something different.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

Newsflash, the reason why someone like Merc competes in F1 is for publicity. Same with any manufacturer. They are only racing so that they can sell road cars. As soon as the board determines the publicity isn't worth the F1 investment they'll be gone

McLaren got huge publicity in 2017 - even though they had no hand in designing, building or running the car! They got huge publicity again this year but for all of the wrong, comical reasons. If they had done a good job, qualified and run a good race of course it would have been worth it

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

Newsflash, the reason why someone like Merc competes in F1 is for publicity. Same with any manufacturer. They are only racing so that they can sell road cars. As soon as the board determines the publicity isn't worth the F1 investment they'll be gone

McLaren got huge publicity in 2017 - even though they had no hand in designing, building or running the car! They got huge publicity again this year but for all of the wrong, comical reasons. If they had done a good job, qualified and run a good race of course it would have been worth it

That's way oversimplified. Marketing is a big reason why teams compete in F1 but, for organizations like Mercedes, they also use it to develop technology that they use for commercial products.

Above all, winning is what produces effective publicity. Simply showing up is not. You can't be seen as a serious competitor in F1 without running in the Monaco GP. You also cannot be seen as a serious Indycar competitor when you only compete in the 500. So they chose the route of gimmicky glory-chasing rather than being a serious competitor. For a company that is trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari in the world of performance sports car brands, that comes across as pathetic.

I also reject the idea that it was a "huge" publicity gain. Again, I would ask how you quantify that?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

Newsflash, the reason why someone like Merc competes in F1 is for publicity. Same with any manufacturer. They are only racing so that they can sell road cars. As soon as the board determines the publicity isn't worth the F1 investment they'll be gone

McLaren got huge publicity in 2017 - even though they had no hand in designing, building or running the car! They got huge publicity again this year but for all of the wrong, comical reasons. If they had done a good job, qualified and run a good race of course it would have been worth it

That's way oversimplified. Marketing is a big reason why teams compete in F1 but, for organizations like Mercedes, they also use it to develop technology that they use for commercial products.

Above all, winning is what produces effective publicity. Simply showing up is not. You can't be seen as a serious competitor in F1 without running in the Monaco GP. You also cannot be seen as a serious Indycar competitor when you only compete in the 500. So they chose the route of gimmicky glory-chasing rather than being a serious competitor. For a company that is trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari in the world of performance sports car brands, that comes across as pathetic.

I also reject the idea that it was a "huge" publicity gain. Again, I would ask how you quantify that?


Mclaren did contest the Monaco Grand Prix though.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 1:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

Newsflash, the reason why someone like Merc competes in F1 is for publicity. Same with any manufacturer. They are only racing so that they can sell road cars. As soon as the board determines the publicity isn't worth the F1 investment they'll be gone

McLaren got huge publicity in 2017 - even though they had no hand in designing, building or running the car! They got huge publicity again this year but for all of the wrong, comical reasons. If they had done a good job, qualified and run a good race of course it would have been worth it

And they did so without their $30 million a year driver...
That's way oversimplified. Marketing is a big reason why teams compete in F1 but, for organizations like Mercedes, they also use it to develop technology that they use for commercial products.

Above all, winning is what produces effective publicity. Simply showing up is not. You can't be seen as a serious competitor in F1 without running in the Monaco GP. You also cannot be seen as a serious Indycar competitor when you only compete in the 500. So they chose the route of gimmicky glory-chasing rather than being a serious competitor. For a company that is trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari in the world of performance sports car brands, that comes across as pathetic.

I also reject the idea that it was a "huge" publicity gain. Again, I would ask how you quantify that?


Mclaren did contest the Monaco Grand Prix though.

And they did so without their $30 million a year driver...


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

I also have my doubts on exactly how much the publicity is worth, but I don't think I'd agree with the focusing on improving their car bit. I very much doubt they are pulling resources from their F1 team to focus on Indy and I don't see why they can't do both?

It's not exactly about pulling resources. It's more about allocating them to begin with. However many millions of dollars they spent on that, it wasn't worth it IMO. Trying to compete in both F1 and Indy will only guarantee that you win neither. They already lack the budget to match the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes (remember when Ferrari and McLaren were the two big boys of F1?). It all just seems very short-sighted to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:14 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

I also have my doubts on exactly how much the publicity is worth, but I don't think I'd agree with the focusing on improving their car bit. I very much doubt they are pulling resources from their F1 team to focus on Indy and I don't see why they can't do both?

It's not exactly about pulling resources. It's more about allocating them to begin with. However many millions of dollars they spent on that, it wasn't worth it IMO. Trying to compete in both F1 and Indy will only guarantee that you win neither. They already lack the budget to match the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes (remember when Ferrari and McLaren were the two big boys of F1?). It all just seems very short-sighted to me.


But you're assuming the money they spent on Indy came out of the F1 budget?


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

I also have my doubts on exactly how much the publicity is worth, but I don't think I'd agree with the focusing on improving their car bit. I very much doubt they are pulling resources from their F1 team to focus on Indy and I don't see why they can't do both?

It's not exactly about pulling resources. It's more about allocating them to begin with. However many millions of dollars they spent on that, it wasn't worth it IMO. Trying to compete in both F1 and Indy will only guarantee that you win neither. They already lack the budget to match the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes (remember when Ferrari and McLaren were the two big boys of F1?). It all just seems very short-sighted to me.


But you're assuming the money they spent on Indy came out of the F1 budget?

I think the first two sentences of my previous post clarify my thoughts on that. If we want to discuss this purely in terms of business; they are diluting their brand. They are becoming a "Jack of all trades, master of none" brand. The McLaren brand has already faded far from it's previous reputation of excellence in motor sport's highest level.

So this kind of speaks to an earlier conversation about McLaren and their relationship with Alonso. They went all in on Fernando's quest for glory; a quest prompted by McLaren's inability to produce a winning car in F1. There just doesn't seem to be a viable reason for them to have done that. A lot of people perceive their brand as almost subservient to the whole Alonso circus. They find rides for him in WEC and Indy and try to help him build his legacy. When not focusing on that, they also compete in Formula 1. An exaggeration of course but the question is; why are they doing that? If it's really just for attention then I'd question their long-term strategy in F1.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Posts: 805
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

I also have my doubts on exactly how much the publicity is worth, but I don't think I'd agree with the focusing on improving their car bit. I very much doubt they are pulling resources from their F1 team to focus on Indy and I don't see why they can't do both?

It's not exactly about pulling resources. It's more about allocating them to begin with. However many millions of dollars they spent on that, it wasn't worth it IMO. Trying to compete in both F1 and Indy will only guarantee that you win neither. They already lack the budget to match the likes of Ferrari and Mercedes (remember when Ferrari and McLaren were the two big boys of F1?). It all just seems very short-sighted to me.


But you're assuming the money they spent on Indy came out of the F1 budget?

I think the first two sentences of my previous post clarify my thoughts on that. If we want to discuss this purely in terms of business; they are diluting their brand. They are becoming a "Jack of all trades, master of none" brand. The McLaren brand has already faded far from it's previous reputation of excellence in motor sport's highest level.

So this kind of speaks to an earlier conversation about McLaren and their relationship with Alonso. They went all in on Fernando's quest for glory; a quest prompted by McLaren's inability to produce a winning car in F1. There just doesn't seem to be a viable reason for them to have done that. A lot of people perceive their brand as almost subservient to the whole Alonso circus. They find rides for him in WEC and Indy and try to help him build his legacy. When not focusing on that, they also compete in Formula 1. An exaggeration of course but the question is; why are they doing that? If it's really just for attention then I'd question their long-term strategy in F1.


Excellent post. :thumbup:
The only winner here is Fernando Alonso.


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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Sad as it is Alonso is Mclaren's only visible link left to greatness.

So true.

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 Post subject: Re: Indy500
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:44 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

The indycar story was huge only for Alonso(popularity) and indycar(popularity and legitimacy).
McLaren has not gain much from this and I have no idea what Zak is/was thinking.

They should have concentrated their efforts on F1.


Of course it was big for Mclaren as well. Bringing a former WDC out of retirement for Monaco also brought them more publicity as well.

I'm sorry but I reject this notion that "publicity" is worth all of the time and resources that they have devoted to these side-shows. I think they'd be better off focusing on improving their car. The notion that all of this is worth it because it attracts attention is dubious at best. How do you quantify that?

Newsflash, the reason why someone like Merc competes in F1 is for publicity. Same with any manufacturer. They are only racing so that they can sell road cars. As soon as the board determines the publicity isn't worth the F1 investment they'll be gone

McLaren got huge publicity in 2017 - even though they had no hand in designing, building or running the car! They got huge publicity again this year but for all of the wrong, comical reasons. If they had done a good job, qualified and run a good race of course it would have been worth it

That's way oversimplified. Marketing is a big reason why teams compete in F1 but, for organizations like Mercedes, they also use it to develop technology that they use for commercial products.

The VAG group pulling their race programmes from the likes of WEC says otherwise. As soon as public opinion went negative, the board determined that the investment in LMP1 wasn't going to change public opinion

Where are they now? Going for the green credentials in FE. It's all about publicity. The wonderful technology developed in WEC didn't even enter the equation

sandman1347 wrote:
Above all, winning is what produces effective publicity. Simply showing up is not.

If this was true then Ferrari would have left F1 decades ago. They all would have because only one team succeeds every year. Selling cars is the real reason why a car maker will stay involved. Selling drinks cans is the only reason why Red Bull stays involved. If they can still sell their goods despite just showing up then they will continue to do so

sandman1347 wrote:
You can't be seen as a serious competitor in F1 without running in the Monaco GP.

McLaren did run the Monaco GP. And a world champion came out of retirement to drive the car! They had positive publicity coming out the wazoo! It was probably the largest amount of positive news written about the McLaren organization since landing the Honda deal and signing Alonso

sandman1347 wrote:
You also cannot be seen as a serious Indycar competitor when you only compete in the 500. So they chose the route of gimmicky glory-chasing rather than being a serious competitor. For a company that is trying to compete with the likes of Ferrari in the world of performance sports car brands, that comes across as pathetic.

This is nonsense. There are always one off appearances for the Indy 500. It has always been an aspect of the race and adds to the spectacle as well as the anticipation of Bump Day (which delivered in spades this year). Most of the fans - and I mean the people that genuinely follow the Indy 500 - are big admirers of what McLaren and Alonso were trying to do. They want their series to grow too and they want F1/McLaren/Alonso fans watching the Indy 500 (which probably won't happen this year)

sandman1347 wrote:
I also reject the idea that it was a "huge" publicity gain. Again, I would ask how you quantify that?

You're questioning the basic tenets of marketing here. And that's fine. But it's not up to me to answer that

All I know is that the American market is the one that they all want. Do you think the US gives a toss about the Monaco GP? They don't. The Indy 500 run meant that the name "McLaren" was discussed among Americans - at home, in the stands, on the internet, in the newspapers, on the TV. In all likelihood, if you ask them who won the Monaco GP in 2017 they'd probably guess the wrong answer

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