planetf1.com

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

I doubt it. Qualifying for the 500 is the crowning moment of the year for most of these drivers - I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to give up a hard-earned place to anyone else. Although I don't know how much of that decision is made by the team and how much by the driver. If it's the team, money may do the final talking.

Obviously, as an Alonso fan I'm pretty gutted, but I have to agree with what he said after the first day of qualifying. If they're not in, they don't deserve to be in. I hope McLaren will be back, and maybe run the full IndyCar calendar to give a more serious try at the 500. I'll still be going, I just need to figure out who I'll be cheering on instead...

Not thrilled about having another Penske on the pole but if it had to be Pagenaud is not bad.

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

Is this actually true? Literally buying a slot on the grid that another driver earned would severely damage Alonso's reputation. I mean, drivers who pay for their seat in F1 get so much flack as it is - what would people being saying if Lance Stroll's dad paid for him to get Bottas's pole position?

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

Is this actually true? Literally buying a slot on the grid that another driver earned would severely damage Alonso's reputation. I mean, drivers who pay for their seat in F1 get so much flack as it is - what would people being saying if Lance Stroll's dad paid for him to get Bottas's pole position?

As far as I'm aware, it's just a rumor. McLaren was looking to buy an existing team before the 500, but I haven't seen anything more official than Leigh Diffey mentioning it offhand during the broadcast -- which means slightly more than Crofty mentioning something offhand (not very much).

Exediron wrote:

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

Is this actually true? Literally buying a slot on the grid that another driver earned would severely damage Alonso's reputation. I mean, drivers who pay for their seat in F1 get so much flack as it is - what would people being saying if Lance Stroll's dad paid for him to get Bottas's pole position?

As far as I'm aware, it's just a rumor. McLaren was looking to buy an existing team before the 500, but I haven't seen anything more official than Leigh Diffey mentioning it offhand during the broadcast -- which means slightly more than Crofty mentioning something offhand (not very much).

Diffey and Crofty, birds of a feather.

...or should we say cookoos?

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

I doubt it. Qualifying for the 500 is the crowning moment of the year for most of these drivers - I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to give up a hard-earned place to anyone else. Although I don't know how much of that decision is made by the team and how much by the driver. If it's the team, money may do the final talking.

Obviously, as an Alonso fan I'm pretty gutted, but I have to agree with what he said after the first day of qualifying. If they're not in, they don't deserve to be in. I hope McLaren will be back, and maybe run the full IndyCar calendar to give a more serious try at the 500. I'll still be going, I just need to figure out who I'll be cheering on instead...

Apparently it's happened before but anyway Alonso himself has squashed any rumours about it happening he doesn't want to buy a seat.

Alienturnedhuman wrote:

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

Is this actually true? Literally buying a slot on the grid that another driver earned would severely damage Alonso's reputation. I mean, drivers who pay for their seat in F1 get so much flack as it is - what would people being saying if Lance Stroll's dad paid for him to get Bottas's pole position?

It wouldn't have been a top car but anyway the rumour has been quashed.

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

I doubt it. Qualifying for the 500 is the crowning moment of the year for most of these drivers - I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to give up a hard-earned place to anyone else. Although I don't know how much of that decision is made by the team and how much by the driver. If it's the team, money may do the final talking.

Obviously, as an Alonso fan I'm pretty gutted, but I have to agree with what he said after the first day of qualifying. If they're not in, they don't deserve to be in. I hope McLaren will be back, and maybe run the full IndyCar calendar to give a more serious try at the 500. I'll still be going, I just need to figure out who I'll be cheering on instead...

Apparently it's happened before but anyway Alonso himself has squashed any rumours about it happening he doesn't want to buy a seat.

It has happend a number of times over the years. Bruno Junqueira was the last driver I remember having a ride sold out from under him.

Junqueira qualified a Conquest Racing car for the Indy 500 in 2009 and then gave it up for the non-qualified fulltimer at Conquest, Alex Tagliani.

Two years later, when Ryan Hunter-Reay failed to qualify, AJ Foyt Racing sold Junqueira’s qualified entry to Andretti Autosport so Hunter-Reay could start.

There may have been other recent instances but I don't remember them.

Mort Canard wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:Herta top Honda driver in 5th, apparently Alonso is looking to buy his way into the race if anyone is prepared to give up their slot?

I doubt it. Qualifying for the 500 is the crowning moment of the year for most of these drivers - I'd be surprised if anyone was willing to give up a hard-earned place to anyone else. Although I don't know how much of that decision is made by the team and how much by the driver. If it's the team, money may do the final talking.

Obviously, as an Alonso fan I'm pretty gutted, but I have to agree with what he said after the first day of qualifying. If they're not in, they don't deserve to be in. I hope McLaren will be back, and maybe run the full IndyCar calendar to give a more serious try at the 500. I'll still be going, I just need to figure out who I'll be cheering on instead...

Apparently it's happened before but anyway Alonso himself has squashed any rumours about it happening he doesn't want to buy a seat.

It has happend a number of times over the years. Bruno Junqueira was the last driver I remember having a ride sold out from under him.

Junqueira qualified a Conquest Racing car for the Indy 500 in 2009 and then gave it up for the non-qualified fulltimer at Conquest, Alex Tagliani.

Two years later, when Ryan Hunter-Reay failed to qualify, AJ Foyt Racing sold Junqueira’s qualified entry to Andretti Autosport so Hunter-Reay could start.

There may have been other recent instances but I don't remember them.

That's tough on Junqueira for it to happen twice, I hope he got some recompense for it?

I've not really followed Indy qualy too closely until this weekend.

One question - does the track evolve over the weekend, or not really? It wasn't mentioned at all over the weekend as far as I can recall.

After the track dried up yesterday, I wondered if the first couple (or however many) of runners may have been hampered by no rubber on the track because of the rain.

Or do their tyres work differently so it's not a concern?

Yellowbin74 wrote:I've not really followed Indy qualy too closely until this weekend.

One question - does the track evolve over the weekend, or not really? It wasn't mentioned at all over the weekend as far as I can recall.

After the track dried up yesterday, I wondered if the first couple (or however many) of runners may have been hampered by no rubber on the track because of the rain.

Or do their tyres work differently so it's not a concern?

It seems the biggest difference is how hot the track is, the hotter the slower they go.

In the main qualifying session the early runners had the better cooler conditions, Alonso ran in position 20 out of 36 cars so he wasn't greatly disadvantaged in respect to making the top 30, Herta ran much nearer to the end and went 8th quickest.

I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

sidders wrote:Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

Incredible.

That's a mightily impressive list of failures for one team. And even if they'd just got the gear ratio right for the last run they'd have likely got away with it all.

Impressive levels of dumbassery, kudos.

sidders wrote:Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

Embarrassing to say the least. McLaren have made an art form of over-promising and under-delivering. If Alonso wants to continue in motor racing, it's high time he changed teams. Someone needs to send him that memo that Lewis got back in 2012.

sidders wrote:Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

Embarrassing. Really embarrassing.

Honestly, as a McLaren fan this whole fiasco has been even more painful than the worst of the F1 Honda years. There's just no excuse for any top-level motorsport team to make the plethora of mistakes they made. Amateur hour just begins to describe it. Alonso knew what he was talking about when he said they didn't deserve to be in the race.

As an Alonso fan, I such mixed emotions about this. I have felt all along that he would benefit from running the whole or most of the series. Montoya and DeFerrin made mention of this a couple of years ago. And while some might argue that it wouldn't help with indy because the aero is different, id also mention that it also helps get all the bugs out of the car (ie-they lost a whole day of practice due to transmission problems). I like indycar and F1, and often feel like people think that indycar drivers are vastly inferior. I guess this proves that you can't just walk into a team and a car and go win against the big boys. It also proves that while indycar is a spec series, there is still a lot of tuning that matters. It also proves that McLaren, even using the best engine and a spec chassis, can still find a ways to screw it up. It also shows me that McLaren are extremely arrogant to think that they can walk in and have one of the best open wheel drivers and just win, with less practice, less experience and a big budget and driver. I think that Fernandos success in 2017 gave them a lot of over confidence that it would be easy. Oh, and So much for it all being Hondas fault!! Im hoping now that Alonso commits to indycar for a season and gives it another try.

Lets me honest, the rules in WEC in favor of Toyota almost make that part of the "triple crown" a total JOKE!! You couldnt do that in indycar.

rodH wrote:Lets me honest, the rules in WEC in favor of Toyota almost make that part of the "triple crown" a total JOKE!! You couldnt do that in indycar.

Isn't this whole Indy 500 DNQ debacle pretty clear proof that the team matters a huge amount in IndyCar?

Every step of the triple crown relies on having a strong team. Yes, the current one-team situation in WEC is a little beyond the norm, but anyone who has ever won in motorsport has had a team giving them the car to win.

Exediron wrote:

rodH wrote:Lets me honest, the rules in WEC in favor of Toyota almost make that part of the "triple crown" a total JOKE!! You couldnt do that in indycar.

Isn't this whole Indy 500 DNQ debacle pretty clear proof that the team matters a huge amount in IndyCar?

Every step of the triple crown relies on having a strong team. Yes, the current one-team situation in WEC is a little beyond the norm, but anyone who has ever won in motorsport has had a team giving them the car to win.

Would say that the team is not as important in Indycar as in Formula 1 since they all run basically the same car with a choice for now of two different engines. In Formula 1 you have to drive exceptionally well if you are not at one of the top 3 teams to even come close to a podium.

Still you need an experienced team in Indycar so that you don't give away time and speed to rookie mistakes.

This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

sidders wrote:Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

Wow. Very disappointing. What a farce.

Mort Canard wrote:

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.

sidders wrote:Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

I have no words to explain how much fail went on here.

This is an absolute embarrassment.

No steering wheel ? I mean, come on ..!

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

sandman1347 wrote:

sidders wrote:Looks like they made a right pig's ear of it

https://apnews.com/a8653967a9714ac7a9a3ba576f712fff

Embarrassing to say the least. McLaren have made an art form of over-promising and under-delivering. If Alonso wants to continue in motor racing, it's high time he changed teams. Someone needs to send him that memo that Lewis got back in 2012.

Yep I think Hamilton sussed out all was not well at McLaren when he walked away from a race winning car, the fastest car of the season?

Exediron wrote:

rodH wrote:Lets me honest, the rules in WEC in favor of Toyota almost make that part of the "triple crown" a total JOKE!! You couldnt do that in indycar.

Isn't this whole Indy 500 DNQ debacle pretty clear proof that the team matters a huge amount in IndyCar?

Every step of the triple crown relies on having a strong team. Yes, the current one-team situation in WEC is a little beyond the norm, but anyone who has ever won in motorsport has had a team giving them the car to win.

Indeed but hark back to 2017 and I'm sure many gave Alonso 90% of the credit?

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

The engines are clearly not equal either:-

Fast 9

1. Chevrolet
2. Chevrolet
3. Chevrolet
4. Chevrolet
5. Honda
6. Chevrolet
7. Honda
8. Chevrolet
9. Honda

Siao7 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.

It's more that it's just embarrassing to be associated with such a goofy operation.

sandman1347 wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.

It's more that it's just embarrassing to be associated with such a goofy operation.

Yes I agree. In my head though he was actually spot on when they presented the problems to him and he said "let's get on with it", instead of just running away from it.

McLaren underestimated what is required to be competitive at Indy. A common mistake for first time organizations (nobody currently with McLaren was with the team when they had the cars to beat, back in the 70's).

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

Now I read again what I wrote and it leaves an impression that I blamed solely the driver. No, the whole operation of Indycar is an underestimated science.

yep, this year at least the chevy is slightly quicker at indy, but on road courses the honda is better, puts the power down quicker. The fact that McLaren was using the Chevy even makes it more odd. On road courses and street courses I think Alonso could do better even if he is in a subpar car, because so much of that is the driver. Like Wickens last year, he was doing so well in a small team, until his injury.

pokerman wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

The engines are clearly not equal either:-

Fast 9

1. Chevrolet
2. Chevrolet
3. Chevrolet
4. Chevrolet
5. Honda
6. Chevrolet
7. Honda
8. Chevrolet
9. Honda

pokerman wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

The engines are clearly not equal either:-

Fast 9

1. Chevrolet
2. Chevrolet
3. Chevrolet
4. Chevrolet
5. Honda
6. Chevrolet
7. Honda
8. Chevrolet
9. Honda

Of course teams make a difference, always have and always will...in every racing series. One difference with F1 is that teams there are not limited to only 2 cars....which puts more drivers in competitive cars.

About the engines, thus far we have seen certain tracks favor one engine, but the other engine cars better on other courses. Should be an interesting year in INDYCar this year.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

Now I read again what I wrote and it leaves an impression that I blamed solely the driver. No, the whole operation of Indycar is an underestimated science.

You blamed both the driver and the team, Alonso was not to blame apart perhaps because of his crash but other drivers crashed and the teams were able to get the drivers back on track much quicker than what McLaren did.

rodH wrote:yep, this year at least the chevy is slightly quicker at indy, but on road courses the honda is better, puts the power down quicker. The fact that McLaren was using the Chevy even makes it more odd. On road courses and street courses I think Alonso could do better even if he is in a subpar car, because so much of that is the driver. Like Wickens last year, he was doing so well in a small team, until his injury.

pokerman wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

The engines are clearly not equal either:-

Fast 9

1. Chevrolet
2. Chevrolet
3. Chevrolet
4. Chevrolet
5. Honda
6. Chevrolet
7. Honda
8. Chevrolet
9. Honda

Yeah it seems at Indy the car very much has to work for the driver.

Blake wrote:

pokerman wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:I have heard often that Indycar as series, and drivers therein are on a much lower level than F1. Turns out that racing is a science, no matter on which side of the ocean it is.

I'm not sure that you can blame Alonso for what happened, even in a spec series it seems the team can make a difference:-

Indy500 grid

01. Penske
02. ECR
03. ECR
04. ECR
05. Harding/Andretti
06. Penske
07. Dale Coyne
08. Penske
09. Andretti
10. Andretti
11. Andretti
12. Penske
v
v
v
34. McLaren/Carlin
35. Carlin
36. Carlin

The engines are clearly not equal either:-

Fast 9

1. Chevrolet
2. Chevrolet
3. Chevrolet
4. Chevrolet
5. Honda
6. Chevrolet
7. Honda
8. Chevrolet
9. Honda

Of course teams make a difference, always have and always will...in every racing series. One difference with F1 is that teams there are not limited to only 2 cars....which puts more drivers in competitive cars.

About the engines, thus far we have seen certain tracks favor one engine, but the other engine cars better on other courses. Should be an interesting year in INDYCar this year.

Yeah I've seen it's more open on the road courses both with cars and engines, in F1 do you really want to see 4 Mercedes cars competing?

Siao7 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.

Was not saying that Fernando did anything wrong in particular but, failure to qualify will not help his claim to be one of the greatest racing drivers ever.

Mort Canard wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.

Was not saying that Fernando did anything wrong in particular but, failure to qualify will not help his claim to be one of the greatest racing drivers ever.

I suspect his legacy and abilities are well enough established that few will be laying any significant part of the blame for non-qualification on him or would be re-assessing his talent as a result.

Zoue wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

ptr250 wrote:This whole fiasco was a huge embarrassment for McLaren.

...and Alonso!

Not sure what Alonso could have done differently. He also did the right thing by not buying a seat. I think he did ok, all things considering, gave it his best shot and despite all of these setbacks, he just about missed the spot.

Was not saying that Fernando did anything wrong in particular but, failure to qualify will not help his claim to be one of the greatest racing drivers ever.

I suspect his legacy and abilities are well enough established that few will be laying any significant part of the blame for non-qualification on him or would be re-assessing his talent as a result.

Yeah, I see what Mort Canard is saying, but I think his previous/first Indy outing established him well enough to get a standing ovation for his try. Let's not forget there are a host of other greats that failed in Indy, in a worse way than Alonso and I don't think that it hurt their legacy. IT is not after all Alonso that failed, he had a blunt chisel to work with...