planetf1.com

I find it amazing that, of the three drivers in the thread title, only Ocon has no seat for 2019. Robert Kubica had not raced in an F1 car since 2010 and is literally out there with one hand and yet, because he found $10 million in sponsorship backing, he has a seat. Likewise Lance Stroll has performed quite poorly during his time in F1 (and indeed is performing quite poorly this season as well) but his father has enough money to actually acquire a solid midfield team and so he has a seat too. Esteban Ocon, on the other hand, is both young and extremely talented. He won championships in F3 and GP3 and beat the likes of Max Verstappen in order to do it. He showed very good potential in his first two seasons in F1 as well; displaying superior overall pace to his teammate Sergio Perez (who is now decimating Stroll in the same car).

I just struggle with this and I have for many years. F1 has always claimed to be the pinnacle of motorsport and yet it is undeniable that drivers can actually pay their way onto the grid; taking seats from clearly superior performers. The NBA is the pinnacle of basketball and there is absolutely no way that an inferior player is going to take up a spot on a roster simply because he has money behind him. Some might argue that the EPL is the pinnacle of football but, again, there is no paying your way onto the pitch. Meritocracy is essential to actually being the pinnacle of any sport IMO. If you do not ensure that only the best can make it; you have only a dubious claim to being the pinnacle of your field.

This speaks to the laughably poor financial structure of F1 and the fact that the sport is not financially viable for most of its teams. The fact that Williams chose a bag of money and a guy with only one good hand (no offense intended just being blunt) over a promising 22 year old talent speaks volumes about the reality of the sport.

The Ocon situation is a bit of a fluke but unfortunately it's only going to get worse. It looks like Latiffi will get his license points so that will be us down to 18 real seats. Guys like Stroll and Latiffi are so rich they will have a drive for life.

Stroll is not that bad as many think. He has one major weakness tough: qualifying. In races he was so far quite solid, even surprisingly well at times.

Ocon would be a good second driver at RBR with Verstappen, was it not for his fishy move on him in Brazil 2018.

To Kubica, I really wish that he may redeem himself, he is a nice bloke, and with all the heritage, he does not deserve this situation.

Lt. Drebin wrote:Stroll is not that bad as many think. He has one major weakness tough: qualifying. In races he was so far quite solid, even surprisingly well at times.

Ocon would be a good second driver at RBR with Verstappen, was it not for his fishy move on him in Brazil 2018.

To Kubica, I really wish that he may redeem himself, he is a nice bloke, and with all the heritage, he does not deserve this situation.

I've heard this from a couple of people in the forum but I totally disagree. By no conventional means of assessing a driver's performance can you come to a conclusion that Stroll is a good F1 driver. He has been out-qualified by all of his teammates (including Sirotkin) and he has more race-ending incidents than just about anyone on the grid. Does he turn in a decent performance from time to time? Yes, he does but it is FAR from a consistent occurrence. I don't see Lance as being anything beyond semi-decent in the races and he is downright poor in qualifying. Perez is a tough customer but both Hulkenberg and Ocon proved to be a bit quicker over a single lap (if not quite as proficient in terms of race distance performance). Stroll is not even in Perez's league and he's not an 18 year old rookie anymore. He's an experienced F1 driver with more than 40 grands prix under his belt.

I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

What I find really shocking is why isn't Ocon not getting to drive the Mercedes car either during the tests or anywhere else? The recently concluded test at Barcelona was a good opportunity to evaluate Ocon in their car & decide for 2020 if they wished to.

sandman1347 wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:Stroll is not that bad as many think. He has one major weakness tough: qualifying. In races he was so far quite solid, even surprisingly well at times.

Ocon would be a good second driver at RBR with Verstappen, was it not for his fishy move on him in Brazil 2018.

To Kubica, I really wish that he may redeem himself, he is a nice bloke, and with all the heritage, he does not deserve this situation.

I've heard this from a couple of people in the forum but I totally disagree. By no conventional means of assessing a driver's performance can you come to a conclusion that Stroll is a good F1 driver. He has been out-qualified by all of his teammates (including Sirotkin) and he has more race-ending incidents than just about anyone on the grid.

Put away first three races in 2017 an the had zero race ending incidents in the remaining of the season. The whole 2018 season he had only one single race ending incident, the other two retirements were because of faulty brakes and puncture. The 2019 season sees him having only one race ending incident, at the last race in Spain.
No one claims he is the best driver in the world, but he is much better than his reputation.

UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

I guess they don't want to release Ocon yet just in case Bottas has his mid/late-season slump like he has the last two years. That might make them think twice about re-signing. Although I can't see a situation where they don't re-sign Bottas.

mikeyg123 wrote:The Ocon situation is a bit of a fluke but unfortunately it's only going to get worse. It looks like Latiffi will get his license points so that will be us down to 18 real seats. Guys like Stroll and Latiffi are so rich they will have a drive for life.

If he gets the superlicence points then he deserves an F1 seat as much as anyone else that scores the points

And let's be real, the pay driver phenomenon isn't as bad as it used to be. The new superlicence points system has improved the situation

Given the current sad state of Williams, to me it almost seems better for Ocon's F1 prospect to do something else for a year...

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:The Ocon situation is a bit of a fluke but unfortunately it's only going to get worse. It looks like Latiffi will get his license points so that will be us down to 18 real seats. Guys like Stroll and Latiffi are so rich they will have a drive for life.

If he gets the superlicence points then he deserves an F1 seat as much as anyone else that scores the points

And let's be real, the pay driver phenomenon isn't as bad as it used to be. The new superlicence points system has improved the situation

Not really IMO. If you take 5 seasons at F2 level to get good enough to acquire the points you are less worthy than someone who can do it in 2 seasons. Regardless its not him getting a chance in F1 that irks me. It's that he, along with Stroll will get drives for life. And that's where they differ from pay drivers from previous times. There is also fewer seats on the grid available now.

UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

Ocon was promised a drive at Renault and and was a little more then a week from signing terms when Ricciardo dropped the bombshell.

At the time Bottas was re-signed for Mercedes he was doing well not too unlike now whilst Ocon had yet to prove he could beat/match Perez.

UnlikeUday wrote:What I find really shocking is why isn't Ocon not getting to drive the Mercedes car either during the tests or anywhere else? The recently concluded test at Barcelona was a good opportunity to evaluate Ocon in their car & decide for 2020 if they wished to.

At this point I would say whatever Ocon does is a bit immaterial whilst Bottas is performing like he is.

Most of us saw Montoya in Racing Point's garage. Rumour has it he has joined Racing Point as a coach for Lance Stroll. It's very likely he's joined RP as he was wearing RP's t-shirt at the backside of their garage.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/37182/.html

pokerman wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:What I find really shocking is why isn't Ocon not getting to drive the Mercedes car either during the tests or anywhere else? The recently concluded test at Barcelona was a good opportunity to evaluate Ocon in their car & decide for 2020 if they wished to.

At this point I would say whatever Ocon does is a bit immaterial whilst Bottas is performing like he is.

Yes I'd agree that Ocon's future is very much in Bottas' hands

Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

Frenk Biber wrote:Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

BIB is a total myth.

He beat Perez 9/5 in races finished ahead in 2018 so he very often ends up ahead of his team mate. And Perez is very good. To beat him in that fashion is impressive.

Frenk Biber wrote:Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

Ocon is overrated? See the stats & pick out how many times he crashed, unless You prefer being a pessimist only:


Source - www.imgur.com

mikeyg123 wrote:

Frenk Biber wrote:Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

BIB is a total myth.

He beat Perez 9/5 in races finished ahead in 2018 so he very often ends up ahead of his team mate. And Perez is very good. To beat him in that fashion is impressive.

Especially when you consider the multiple times that Perez crashed him out of the race.

Looks like Mercedes was more interested in getting money from Latifi for the test run on the 2nd day than give Ocon a chance to drive their car at all. Does Mercedes really need the money which looks likely so as I don't believe Mercedes find latifi a future prospect for Mercedes..

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Frenk Biber wrote:Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

BIB is a total myth.

He beat Perez 9/5 in races finished ahead in 2018 so he very often ends up ahead of his team mate. And Perez is very good. To beat him in that fashion is impressive.

Especially when you consider the multiple times that Perez crashed him out of the race.

Once in 2018?

mikeyg123 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Frenk Biber wrote:Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

BIB is a total myth.

He beat Perez 9/5 in races finished ahead in 2018 so he very often ends up ahead of his team mate. And Perez is very good. To beat him in that fashion is impressive.

Especially when you consider the multiple times that Perez crashed him out of the race.

Once in 2018?

Twice if I'm not mistaken in 2018

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

Frenk Biber wrote:Nobody yet? OK, let me do the honors.

Ocon is overrated. Speed is there but usually ends behind his team mate. Crashes too much, especially in incidents with people that he wants to beat too hard (like his team mates and direct rivals). Will fight for the Formula E title soon with Wehrlein.

BIB is a total myth.

He beat Perez 9/5 in races finished ahead in 2018 so he very often ends up ahead of his team mate. And Perez is very good. To beat him in that fashion is impressive.

Especially when you consider the multiple times that Perez crashed him out of the race.

Once in 2018?

Twice if I'm not mistaken in 2018

I recall Singapore. I'm struggling to think of another. I could well be wrong though.

Spa or was they the year before?

JamWalsh wrote:Spa or was they the year before?

Spa and Baku were both 2017.

mikeyg123 wrote:

JamWalsh wrote:Spa or was they the year before?

Spa and Baku were both 2017.

Ah, that's right. I think you're right. It was only Singapore then.

sandman1347 wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

JamWalsh wrote:Spa or was they the year before?

Spa and Baku were both 2017.

Ah, that's right. I think you're right. It was only Singapore then.

Guys see Ocon's career graph above. Overall, he in 2018 just crashed once. He was Oconsistent.

pokerman wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

Ocon was promised a drive at Renault and and was a little more then a week from signing terms when Ricciardo dropped the bombshell.

At the time Bottas was re-signed for Mercedes he was doing well not too unlike now whilst Ocon had yet to prove he could beat/match Perez.

And he had a drive at McLaren on the cards as well, before his management team snubbed them by going to Renault after McLaren made an agreement in principle for him to drive for them. There was a sizable degree of mismanagement that resulted in Ocon not having a seat this year.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

Ocon was promised a drive at Renault and and was a little more then a week from signing terms when Ricciardo dropped the bombshell.

At the time Bottas was re-signed for Mercedes he was doing well not too unlike now whilst Ocon had yet to prove he could beat/match Perez.

And he had a drive at McLaren on the cards as well, before his management team snubbed them by going to Renault after McLaren made an agreement in principle for him to drive for them. There was a sizable degree of mismanagement that resulted in Ocon not having a seat this year.

Sounds like the first thing Ocon should do is get another manager frankly...

Siao7 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

Ocon was promised a drive at Renault and and was a little more then a week from signing terms when Ricciardo dropped the bombshell.

At the time Bottas was re-signed for Mercedes he was doing well not too unlike now whilst Ocon had yet to prove he could beat/match Perez.

And he had a drive at McLaren on the cards as well, before his management team snubbed them by going to Renault after McLaren made an agreement in principle for him to drive for them. There was a sizable degree of mismanagement that resulted in Ocon not having a seat this year.

Sounds like the first thing Ocon should do is get another manager frankly...

I think he's managed by Mercedes, so he might have to give up on driving for them if he did...

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

UnlikeUday wrote:I wonder if Mercedes should've signed Ocon for 2019 after Ocon gained 2 years experience at Force India. This would've proved Mercedes truly believes in their junior program for harvesting good talent.

As of now, they should release him immediately as they'll go with Bottas in 2020. Ocon surely is very unlucky because his career is at crossroads despite being a Mercedes & Toto's apple of the eye.

Ocon was promised a drive at Renault and and was a little more then a week from signing terms when Ricciardo dropped the bombshell.

At the time Bottas was re-signed for Mercedes he was doing well not too unlike now whilst Ocon had yet to prove he could beat/match Perez.

And he had a drive at McLaren on the cards as well, before his management team snubbed them by going to Renault after McLaren made an agreement in principle for him to drive for them. There was a sizable degree of mismanagement that resulted in Ocon not having a seat this year.

Sounds like the first thing Ocon should do is get another manager frankly...

I think he's managed by Mercedes, so he might have to give up on driving for them if he did...

I thought he has a management team. Are you sure it is Mercedes?

Siao7 wrote:

Exediron wrote:

Siao7 wrote:

Exediron wrote:And he had a drive at McLaren on the cards as well, before his management team snubbed them by going to Renault after McLaren made an agreement in principle for him to drive for them. There was a sizable degree of mismanagement that resulted in Ocon not having a seat this year.

Sounds like the first thing Ocon should do is get another manager frankly...

I think he's managed by Mercedes, so he might have to give up on driving for them if he did...

I thought he has a management team. Are you sure it is Mercedes?

No, I'm not sure. But it's clear that Mecedes has a lot of say in where he goes, even if they aren't his official management.

Is Toto not his manager?

JamWalsh wrote:Is Toto not his manager?

Toto will make sure Ocon gets a seat next year.

mikeyg123 wrote:

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:The Ocon situation is a bit of a fluke but unfortunately it's only going to get worse. It looks like Latiffi will get his license points so that will be us down to 18 real seats. Guys like Stroll and Latiffi are so rich they will have a drive for life.

If he gets the superlicence points then he deserves an F1 seat as much as anyone else that scores the points

And let's be real, the pay driver phenomenon isn't as bad as it used to be. The new superlicence points system has improved the situation

Not really IMO. If you take 5 seasons at F2 level to get good enough to acquire the points you are less worthy than someone who can do it in 2 seasons. Regardless its not him getting a chance in F1 that irks me. It's that he, along with Stroll will get drives for life. And that's where they differ from pay drivers from previous times. There is also fewer seats on the grid available now.

When the superlicence rules change to "driver must not have taken 5 years in F2 to get to this level" you might have an argument. Otherwise you don't

Plenty of drivers have spent multiple seasons buying seats wherever they could get them. And I would wager that Lance Stroll does a better job than most of them. He brings home a decent amount of points relative to his teammates. He's no world champion but the team can count on him to contribute adequately to the points haul. And that is better than a lot of pay drivers have historically performed

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:The Ocon situation is a bit of a fluke but unfortunately it's only going to get worse. It looks like Latiffi will get his license points so that will be us down to 18 real seats. Guys like Stroll and Latiffi are so rich they will have a drive for life.

If he gets the superlicence points then he deserves an F1 seat as much as anyone else that scores the points

And let's be real, the pay driver phenomenon isn't as bad as it used to be. The new superlicence points system has improved the situation

Not really IMO. If you take 5 seasons at F2 level to get good enough to acquire the points you are less worthy than someone who can do it in 2 seasons. Regardless its not him getting a chance in F1 that irks me. It's that he, along with Stroll will get drives for life. And that's where they differ from pay drivers from previous times. There is also fewer seats on the grid available now.

When the superlicence rules change to "driver must not have taken 5 years in F2 to get to this level" you might have an argument. Otherwise you don't

Plenty of drivers have spent multiple seasons buying seats wherever they could get them. And I would wager that Lance Stroll does a better job than most of them. He brings home a decent amount of points relative to his teammates. He's no world champion but the team can count on him to contribute adequately to the points haul. And that is better than a lot of pay drivers have historically performed

Of course I have an argument. We've seen countless times that someone who takes forever to be successful in F2 is not as good in F1 as someone who could succeed right away in F2. The better driver you are the more right you have to a chance in an F1 car.

Stroll showed a lot more ability pre F1 than Latiffi.

mikeyg123 wrote:

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:The Ocon situation is a bit of a fluke but unfortunately it's only going to get worse. It looks like Latiffi will get his license points so that will be us down to 18 real seats. Guys like Stroll and Latiffi are so rich they will have a drive for life.

If he gets the superlicence points then he deserves an F1 seat as much as anyone else that scores the points

And let's be real, the pay driver phenomenon isn't as bad as it used to be. The new superlicence points system has improved the situation

Not really IMO. If you take 5 seasons at F2 level to get good enough to acquire the points you are less worthy than someone who can do it in 2 seasons. Regardless its not him getting a chance in F1 that irks me. It's that he, along with Stroll will get drives for life. And that's where they differ from pay drivers from previous times. There is also fewer seats on the grid available now.

When the superlicence rules change to "driver must not have taken 5 years in F2 to get to this level" you might have an argument. Otherwise you don't

Plenty of drivers have spent multiple seasons buying seats wherever they could get them. And I would wager that Lance Stroll does a better job than most of them. He brings home a decent amount of points relative to his teammates. He's no world champion but the team can count on him to contribute adequately to the points haul. And that is better than a lot of pay drivers have historically performed

Of course I have an argument. We've seen countless times that someone who takes forever to be successful in F2 is not as good in F1 as someone who could succeed right away in F2. The better driver you are the more right you have to a chance in an F1 car.

Stroll showed a lot more ability pre F1 than Latiffi.

As long as the superlicence rules stay as they are and a team is willing to take him on, he deserves his chance. He's fairly killing it in F2 at the moment too so it's not like he's sneaking through a backdoor

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

mcdo wrote:

mikeyg123 wrote:

mcdo wrote: If he gets the superlicence points then he deserves an F1 seat as much as anyone else that scores the points

And let's be real, the pay driver phenomenon isn't as bad as it used to be. The new superlicence points system has improved the situation

Not really IMO. If you take 5 seasons at F2 level to get good enough to acquire the points you are less worthy than someone who can do it in 2 seasons. Regardless its not him getting a chance in F1 that irks me. It's that he, along with Stroll will get drives for life. And that's where they differ from pay drivers from previous times. There is also fewer seats on the grid available now.

When the superlicence rules change to "driver must not have taken 5 years in F2 to get to this level" you might have an argument. Otherwise you don't

Plenty of drivers have spent multiple seasons buying seats wherever they could get them. And I would wager that Lance Stroll does a better job than most of them. He brings home a decent amount of points relative to his teammates. He's no world champion but the team can count on him to contribute adequately to the points haul. And that is better than a lot of pay drivers have historically performed

Of course I have an argument. We've seen countless times that someone who takes forever to be successful in F2 is not as good in F1 as someone who could succeed right away in F2. The better driver you are the more right you have to a chance in an F1 car.

Stroll showed a lot more ability pre F1 than Latiffi.

As long as the superlicence rules stay as they are and a team is willing to take him on, he deserves his chance. He's fairly killing it in F2 at the moment too so it's not like he's sneaking through a backdoor

Yeah at least the super license points are assuring that drivers reach a certain level before entering F1.

mcdo wrote: As long as the superlicence rules stay as they are and a team is willing to take him on, he deserves his chance. He's fairly killing it in F2 at the moment too so it's not like he's sneaking through a backdoor

It's not so much him not deserving a chance. He won't just get a chance. He'll get a decade long career unless he's absolutely terrible.

Williams know the answers about Latiffi's pace, there are rumours that he's in line to replace Kubrica but I think he should stick to F2 at the moment unless he's allowed to do both (I think not)

As for Esteban Ocon it all depends on if Bottas continues his good form and also what Mercedes intends to do with their Formula E programme regarding their other two drivers there.