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Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Rockie wrote: You are being disingenuous, Mercedes were toying with the rest in this race.

Leclerc would have had same strategy so no way was he doing anything without the SC which didn't come on pure pace he was no where near the Mercs even if we go by the FP's like you want to do!

What SC are you talking about?

Leclerc was much quicker than Vettel throughout the weekend and Vettel only missed pole by 3 tenths and that was without the tow that benefited Bottas.

yeah, but you know, Bottas only pipped Hamilton by half a tenth and Hamilton didn't have a tow either, so...

So we don't know which is basically the point I'm making.

We can o with the balance of probabilities which showed the race sim results reflected in the race itself

Which it didn't because you said the race sim showed Red Bull to be faster than Ferrari.

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:...or he wasn't happy that the drivers ignored the instructions not to go for fastest lap which Hamilton seemingly ignored by chasing down Bottas thus risking the 1-2 which is basically all he cares about?

Possibly, but that only addresses this particular incident of course.

So you go with Wolff having to play up to Hamilton's brittle ego, nice.

2016 resolved around Hamilton getting a dressing down for the way he drove in the season finale were he felt he had the right to do whatever possible to win the WDC which was still within sporting reason as in not looking to crash out an opponent.

Oh, don't get all bent out of shape. I did say it was circumstantial.

Well I don't understand why you even went there?

Because it was answering a question why Toto might not have looked happy whenever Bottas beat Hamilton?

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I think the Softs lasted a lot less than was originally predicted to be fair. And maybe the Hards were simply too slow?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:What SC are you talking about?

Leclerc was much quicker than Vettel throughout the weekend and Vettel only missed pole by 3 tenths and that was without the tow that benefited Bottas.

yeah, but you know, Bottas only pipped Hamilton by half a tenth and Hamilton didn't have a tow either, so...

So we don't know which is basically the point I'm making.

We can o with the balance of probabilities which showed the race sim results reflected in the race itself

Which it didn't because you said the race sim showed Red Bull to be faster than Ferrari.

Max was faster than Vettel for quite a while. When the VSC interrupted he lost temp in the tyres and couldn't recover, but up to that point Max looked like he would be a threat to Vettel to be fair

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

Yeah I saw that, I thought he'd won the corner but then didn't want to compromise Bottas.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I think the Softs lasted a lot less than was originally predicted to be fair. And maybe the Hards were simply too slow?

It must be that, they must have been really bad not to use them?

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I think the Softs lasted a lot less than was originally predicted to be fair. And maybe the Hards were simply too slow?

It must be that, they must have been really bad not to use them?

Yeah like you I wondered during the race why they wouldn't put Leclerc on the Hards. I can only assume they must have been really slow because putting him on the Softs when they did looked very strange considering how quickly they wore out at the beginning of the race

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I think the Softs lasted a lot less than was originally predicted to be fair. And maybe the Hards were simply too slow?

It must be that, they must have been really bad not to use them?

Yeah like you I wondered during the race why they wouldn't put Leclerc on the Hards. I can only assume they must have been really slow because putting him on the Softs when they did looked very strange considering how quickly they wore out at the beginning of the race

What's crazy is that they put him on the softs and immediately told him his race was over so settle for 5th, the hards must have been like concrete?

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Whose view seems strange to you? Hamilton's or Lt. Drebin's?

Hamilton left the absolute minimum room allowed within the rules. If memory serves he also oversteered i to turn 1 slightly, had he pushed any harder and not been 'as nice' it could've been game over for both him and Bottas.

minchy wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Whose view seems strange to you? Hamilton's or Lt. Drebin's?

Hamilton left the absolute minimum room allowed within the rules. If memory serves he also oversteered i to turn 1 slightly, had he pushed any harder and not been 'as nice' it could've been game over for both him and Bottas.

My impression is that Lewis eventually backed out of it and let Valtteri go. I think he could have stayed side by side with Bottas for a ways longer and maybe forced Valtteri to concede. Would have been risky and could have meant the two team mates engaged in a shunt.

Jezza13 wrote:Time to call Ricciardo " The Reverse Torpedo" perhaps?

After all, it he was the one who gave Kvyat the "Torpedo" moniker.

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Yeah like you I wondered during the race why they wouldn't put Leclerc on the Hards. I can only assume they must have been really slow because putting him on the Softs when they did looked very strange considering how quickly they wore out at the beginning of the race

What's crazy is that they put him on the softs and immediately told him his race was over so settle for 5th, the hards must have been like concrete?

Yeah, that's why I was asking if anyone actually ran them in FPs. Because after the 1st stint of all who started on the softs it was pretty clear that it's not a good tyre to race on. Leclerc was massively faster than the top4 within L5/L6. I mean, it was pretty obvious by lap ~22 that he'll get caught by everyone as he was consistently lapping 1s+ slower.

I was a bit surprised they didn't risk it since there wasn't a lot to lose.

Source - www.imgur.com


Source - www.imgur.com

Mort Canard wrote:

minchy wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Whose view seems strange to you? Hamilton's or Lt. Drebin's?

Hamilton left the absolute minimum room allowed within the rules. If memory serves he also oversteered i to turn 1 slightly, had he pushed any harder and not been 'as nice' it could've been game over for both him and Bottas.

My impression is that Lewis eventually backed out of it and let Valtteri go. I think he could have stayed side by side with Bottas for a ways longer and maybe forced Valtteri to concede. Would have been risky and could have meant the two team mates engaged in a shunt.

To be fair I think Bottas was equally "nice." On one of the corners he left Lewis much more room than he needed to. I think they were both playing it fair

Zoue wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

minchy wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote: He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Whose view seems strange to you? Hamilton's or Lt. Drebin's?

Hamilton left the absolute minimum room allowed within the rules. If memory serves he also oversteered i to turn 1 slightly, had he pushed any harder and not been 'as nice' it could've been game over for both him and Bottas.

My impression is that Lewis eventually backed out of it and let Valtteri go. I think he could have stayed side by side with Bottas for a ways longer and maybe forced Valtteri to concede. Would have been risky and could have meant the two team mates engaged in a shunt.

To be fair I think Bottas was equally "nice." On one of the corners he left Lewis much more room than he needed to. I think they were both playing it fair

Yes very clean racing, but in a sense I think they were both ultimately a bit egoistic as well as they wouldn't want a Ferrari splitting them. Race too hard and your teammate gets passed by Vettel, who at the time was thought to be the faster package around Baku.

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

Firstly. He left him 1 cars width inside the white lines.

Secondly. The racing line is actually running that flat and painted kerb, he gave Bottas the perfect racing line.

Running somebody out is what Vettel did to Max in China, where he pushed him off onto grass inspite of not even being ahead of him when he began to squeeze him, he was behind.

Max Verstappen is 0.3 secs away from having beaten Leclerc in every race so far this season

mcdo wrote:

Code: Select all

2019 Bahrain Grand Prix
1	44 Lewis Hamilton	 Mercedes    57	1:34:21.295
2	77 Valtteri Bottas	Mercedes	 57	+2.980
3	16 Charles Leclerc	Ferrari     57	+6.131
4	33 Max Verstappen	 Red Bull    57	+6.408

Max Verstappen is 0.3 secs away from having beaten Leclerc in every race so far this season

sorry if I'm a bit slow, but what am I looking at here?

Zoue wrote:

mcdo wrote:

Code: Select all

2019 Bahrain Grand Prix
1	44 Lewis Hamilton	 Mercedes    57	1:34:21.295
2	77 Valtteri Bottas	Mercedes	 57	+2.980
3	16 Charles Leclerc	Ferrari     57	+6.131
4	33 Max Verstappen	 Red Bull    57	+6.408

Max Verstappen is 0.3 secs away from having beaten Leclerc in every race so far this season

sorry if I'm a bit slow, but what am I looking at here?

The results of the only race Leclerc finished in front of Verstappen this year.

Jezza13 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

mcdo wrote:

Code: Select all

2019 Bahrain Grand Prix
1	44 Lewis Hamilton	 Mercedes    57	1:34:21.295
2	77 Valtteri Bottas	Mercedes	 57	+2.980
3	16 Charles Leclerc	Ferrari     57	+6.131
4	33 Max Verstappen	 Red Bull    57	+6.408

Max Verstappen is 0.3 secs away from having beaten Leclerc in every race so far this season

sorry if I'm a bit slow, but what am I looking at here?

The results of the only race Leclerc finished in front of Verstappen this year.

ah yes, sorry. Clearly my brain hasn't got out of bed yet this Monday morning!

Johnson wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

Firstly. He left him 1 cars width inside the white lines.

Secondly. The racing line is actually running that flat and painted kerb, he gave Bottas the perfect racing line.

Running somebody out is what Vettel did to Max in China, where he pushed him off onto grass inspite of not even being ahead of him when he began to squeeze him, he was behind.

Firstly, that is not 1 car width, else Bottas would not be using only half of the actual racetrack.
Secondly, as far as I know, the racetrack is determined as the inside of the actual white lines. I have not seen in the race drivers going off on that place - unless they made a mistake.
Thirdly, this would be a no story have not Hamilton claimed that he lost because he was "too nice", instead, "I was slower today, I was beaten fair and square both in qualy and in race".
I agree with Vettel pushing, yet, Max seemed to be OK with that (that's what he said), and Valteri also did not complain about being pushed by Hamilton, at least not in public. The only thing that raised my eyebrow is that Hamilton claimed how he was too nice, while, in words of the PF1 journalist, he "almost squeezed Bottas out on the exit of Turn 1". How is that labeled "too nice"?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/race-just ... y-in-baku/

Zoue wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

Zoue wrote:

mcdo wrote:

Code: Select all

2019 Bahrain Grand Prix
1	44 Lewis Hamilton	 Mercedes    57	1:34:21.295
2	77 Valtteri Bottas	Mercedes	 57	+2.980
3	16 Charles Leclerc	Ferrari     57	+6.131
4	33 Max Verstappen	 Red Bull    57	+6.408

Max Verstappen is 0.3 secs away from having beaten Leclerc in every race so far this season

sorry if I'm a bit slow, but what am I looking at here?

The results of the only race Leclerc finished in front of Verstappen this year.

ah yes, sorry. Clearly my brain hasn't got out of bed yet this Monday morning!

That's alright Zoue, my brain's been in sleep mode for the last 4 years.

Feel's ok once you get used to it.

Before the season started I’d written Bottas off, after Aus I thought it was a one off. Now though he’s really showing a new character - I’m liking the new Valtteri, a real challange to Lewis along with Max, Seb, and Charles.

Lt. Drebin wrote: Firstly, that is not 1 car width, else Bottas would not be using only half of the actual racetrack.
Secondly, as far as I know, the racetrack is determined as the inside of the actual white lines. I have not seen in the race drivers going off on that place - unless they made a mistake.
Thirdly, this would be a no story have not Hamilton claimed that he lost because he was "too nice", instead, "I was slower today, I was beaten fair and square both in qualy and in race".
I agree with Vettel pushing, yet, Max seemed to be OK with that (that's what he said), and Valteri also did not complain about being pushed by Hamilton, at least not in public. The only thing that raised my eyebrow is that Hamilton claimed how he was too nice, while, in words of the PF1 journalist, he "almost squeezed Bottas out on the exit of Turn 1". How is that labeled "too nice"?

https://www.planetf1.com/news/race-just ... y-in-baku/

1) You seem to be completely ignoring the half car width between the cars? Why?

2) The fastest way through turn 1 is using the kerb on exit, its a no brainer, it narrows the angle of the corner. Its the racing line. This is especially the case if you enter turn 1 on a wider line like Bottas did because he had a car on the inside.

yodasarmpit wrote:Before the season started I’d written Bottas off, after Aus I thought it was a one off. Now though he’s really showing a new character - I’m liking the new Valtteri, a real challange to Lewis along with Max, Seb, and Charles.

But it's hard to imagine Bottas being on the same level as Hamilton? Once the European leg starts, I think Hamilton will get stronger.

yodasarmpit wrote:Before the season started I’d written Bottas off, after Aus I thought it was a one off. Now though he’s really showing a new character - I’m liking the new Valtteri, a real challange to Lewis along with Max, Seb, and Charles.

He did the same in both 2017 and 2018, generally match Hamilton in the first 5-6 races. Then was generally nowhere for the rest of the year, Hamilton takes a while to get a balance he likes and moulded to the car. Its happening for the third year straight. I wouldn't hold my breath just yet.

Mort Canard wrote:

minchy wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:

Covalent wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.

He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Whose view seems strange to you? Hamilton's or Lt. Drebin's?

Hamilton left the absolute minimum room allowed within the rules. If memory serves he also oversteered i to turn 1 slightly, had he pushed any harder and not been 'as nice' it could've been game over for both him and Bottas.

My impression is that Lewis eventually backed out of it and let Valtteri go. I think he could have stayed side by side with Bottas for a ways longer and maybe forced Valtteri to concede. Would have been risky and could have meant the two team mates engaged in a shunt.

He clearly backed out of it he was fully alongside Bottas on the inside of the corner before they started braking, nominally at that point you have the corner won.

LBET wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:Time to call Ricciardo " The Reverse Torpedo" perhaps?

After all, it he was the one who gave Kvyat the "Torpedo" moniker.

I thought that was Vettel?

VDV23 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Zoue wrote: Yeah like you I wondered during the race why they wouldn't put Leclerc on the Hards. I can only assume they must have been really slow because putting him on the Softs when they did looked very strange considering how quickly they wore out at the beginning of the race

What's crazy is that they put him on the softs and immediately told him his race was over so settle for 5th, the hards must have been like concrete?

Yeah, that's why I was asking if anyone actually ran them in FPs. Because after the 1st stint of all who started on the softs it was pretty clear that it's not a good tyre to race on. Leclerc was massively faster than the top4 within L5/L6. I mean, it was pretty obvious by lap ~22 that he'll get caught by everyone as he was consistently lapping 1s+ slower.

I was a bit surprised they didn't risk it since there wasn't a lot to lose.

Indeed as we saw he had a pit stop in hand to change tyres in order to go for the fastest lap.

pokerman wrote:

LBET wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:Time to call Ricciardo " The Reverse Torpedo" perhaps?

After all, it he was the one who gave Kvyat the "Torpedo" moniker.

I thought that was Vettel?

Yeah turns out you're right.

I was thinking of the press conference where Ricciardo called him that.

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I actually think he would have been better making 2 pit stops and doing 2 x 21 laps on mediums and 1 x 9 laps on softs. His lead over Bottas at lap 21 was somewhere around 5 or 6 seconds so I reckon he would have come out only ~10 seconds behind Vettel but on much fresher rubber (albeit with the challenge of having to make up the time for a pitstop). I can only think that Ferrari were hoping Leclerc would hold up the Mercs and back them into Vettel.

angrypirate wrote:

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I actually think he would have been better making 2 pit stops and doing 2 x 21 laps on mediums and 1 x 9 laps on softs. His lead over Bottas at lap 21 was somewhere around 5 or 6 seconds so I reckon he would have come out only ~10 seconds behind Vettel but on much fresher rubber (albeit with the challenge of having to make up the time for a pitstop). I can only think that Ferrari were hoping Leclerc would hold up the Mercs and back them into Vettel.

Yeah that seems like a good shout, Ferrari are not great with strategy, yet again Leclerc got basically a nothing strategy.

pokerman wrote:

angrypirate wrote: I actually think he would have been better making 2 pit stops and doing 2 x 21 laps on mediums and 1 x 9 laps on softs. His lead over Bottas at lap 21 was somewhere around 5 or 6 seconds so I reckon he would have come out only ~10 seconds behind Vettel but on much fresher rubber (albeit with the challenge of having to make up the time for a pitstop). I can only think that Ferrari were hoping Leclerc would hold up the Mercs and back them into Vettel.

Yeah that seems like a good shout, Ferrari are not great with strategy, yet again Leclerc got basically a nothing strategy.

That's because you are so focused on what he can do and not what is physically possible esp in a race without SC, he had only one set of mediums as he flat spotted one in the accident, but let me not get in the way of strategy experts.

pokerman wrote:

angrypirate wrote:

pokerman wrote:

VDV23 wrote:Did anyone run the hard white-walled tyres throughout the whole weekend - I know nobody ran them in Q or R but how about FP2/3?

The Leclerc strategy was always going to fail without SC, the softs were such a poor race tyre. I wonder if 20-something laps on the meds and the rest on the hards would haven't been better. Or were they so much slower compared to the meds?

I've asked that a couple of times myself.

I actually think he would have been better making 2 pit stops and doing 2 x 21 laps on mediums and 1 x 9 laps on softs. His lead over Bottas at lap 21 was somewhere around 5 or 6 seconds so I reckon he would have come out only ~10 seconds behind Vettel but on much fresher rubber (albeit with the challenge of having to make up the time for a pitstop). I can only think that Ferrari were hoping Leclerc would hold up the Mercs and back them into Vettel.

Yeah that seems like a good shout, Ferrari are not great with strategy, yet again Leclerc got basically a nothing strategy.

The problem is that the Softs were so much worse than they anticipated and Leclerc ran out of life on his Mediums before they had planned. Unlike the last race, I don't think this was Ferrari letting Leclerc down during the race but the damage was done when they chose the Mediums strategy on Saturday. The tyres just didn't last

Ironically, Vettel having to resort to Softs to get through probably saved his race

pokerman wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:

minchy wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:Lewis said in a post race interview that he lost the race because he was too nice in turn one.
He was pushing a fellow driver half cars width out of actual racing track and calls it "too nice". What is next?

That shows him leaving Bottas racing room, strange view to take?

Whose view seems strange to you? Hamilton's or Lt. Drebin's?

Hamilton left the absolute minimum room allowed within the rules. If memory serves he also oversteered i to turn 1 slightly, had he pushed any harder and not been 'as nice' it could've been game over for both him and Bottas.

My impression is that Lewis eventually backed out of it and let Valtteri go. I think he could have stayed side by side with Bottas for a ways longer and maybe forced Valtteri to concede. Would have been risky and could have meant the two team mates engaged in a shunt.

He clearly backed out of it he was fully alongside Bottas on the inside of the corner before they started braking, nominally at that point you have the corner won.

If that hadn't been a fellow Mercedes, and one that had out qualified him too, Lewis would have come out in front. There will be all sorts of internal rules of engagement at play in lap 1. As for leaving racing room, he was more than generous allowing Bottas to take the preferred line with half a car's width between them.

Johnson wrote: 1) You seem to be completely ignoring the half car width between the cars? Why?

2) The fastest way through turn 1 is using the kerb on exit, its a no brainer, it narrows the angle of the corner. Its the racing line. This is especially the case if you enter turn 1 on a wider line like Bottas did because he had a car on the inside.

Hamilton squeezed Bottas a bit. It wasn't much but he did it. Yet I fail to see how it counts to be "too nice to him." That is the whole story.

Real story here isn't Hamilton/Bottas - It's Ferrari bottling it again...

Probably how early he braked for T1, he had the inside so he had the right to brake later and leave Bottas no room on exit. You do not need to leave space on corner exit, the car on the outside is obliged to yield.

He also yielded for T3 when he could have again gone side by side if he wanted. It was nice fair driving but maybe a little too fair.