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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:23 pm 
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So I originally put a link to this in the revenue thread but then I read the whole thing and thought it deserved its own.

Johansson, for those or you who don't know, raced in F1 the '80s. He was considered very fast but not quite top tier. He has written a very long piece on where F1 has gone wrong and put in some recommendations on how it could be improved. One bit on costs that made my eyes water was the following:

To put things in perspective, a top F1 team’s brake budget is nearly equivalent to a winning IndyCar full season budget. No one can see or relate to the insanely complicated brake ducting systems each team now must develop, all for nothing in the end.

Makes you really wonder what on earth they are doing when they can spend that much on one component.

Anyway, enjoy!

https://www.stefanjohansson.com/blog/ma ... some-again

ps Mods - He talks about a number of topics but if you think this should go in the Revenue thread please feel free to merge


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:37 pm 
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I agree with pretty much all of what he's written there. There are a few points in the article that stuck in my mind, but this one most of all:

Aside from making the car go faster, there are very few benefits from aerodynamics, if any. It’s the #1 factor in driving the costs higher, it’s the #1 factor in making the racing less interesting, it has no relevance aside from making the car go faster, yet it’s been the primary focus in every single form of racing the past 30 years or more

It feels like F1's governance does need someone like Johansson who knows the sport but can come in with an outside perspective. Too many of the people that run the sport have been there for too long and don't even realise the scale of the rabbit hole they've gone down with its current format.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:35 am 
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j man wrote:
I agree with pretty much all of what he's written there. There are a few points in the article that stuck in my mind, but this one most of all:

Aside from making the car go faster, there are very few benefits from aerodynamics, if any. It’s the #1 factor in driving the costs higher, it’s the #1 factor in making the racing less interesting, it has no relevance aside from making the car go faster, yet it’s been the primary focus in every single form of racing the past 30 years or more

It feels like F1's governance does need someone like Johansson who knows the sport but can come in with an outside perspective. Too many of the people that run the sport have been there for too long and don't even realise the scale of the rabbit hole they've gone down with its current format.

yeah very much agree with your last sentence. The management of F1 is very insular


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:01 pm 
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They slowed the cars down in 2014 and we had cars that could overtake, the only problem we had then was overall competitiveness because of the Mercedes engine, but then the complaints were that the cars were not much quicker than GP2 cars.

That's a problem for F1 that the cars have to be seen as being far quicker than anything else so as to be viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
They slowed the cars down in 2014 and we had cars that could overtake, the only problem we had then was overall competitiveness because of the Mercedes engine, but then the complaints were that the cars were not much quicker than GP2 cars.

That's a problem for F1 that the cars have to be seen as being far quicker than anything else so as to be viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.

I don't think SJ is advocating slowing the cars down, just saying that some of things F1 is focusing on in the interests of speed have backfired. In fact he's saying the engines should have more power and much higher top speeds than now, but the cars should be difficult to drive. He's also saying the tyres shouldn't be made out of cheese and drivers shouldn't be afraid to push and thereby compromise their race. What he's really attacking is the millions spent on things that nobody actually sees and which don't offer any tangible benefit to the racing (the brakes example is a good one).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They slowed the cars down in 2014 and we had cars that could overtake, the only problem we had then was overall competitiveness because of the Mercedes engine, but then the complaints were that the cars were not much quicker than GP2 cars.

That's a problem for F1 that the cars have to be seen as being far quicker than anything else so as to be viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.

I don't think SJ is advocating slowing the cars down, just saying that some of things F1 is focusing on in the interests of speed have backfired. In fact he's saying the engines should have more power and much higher top speeds than now, but the cars should be difficult to drive. He's also saying the tyres shouldn't be made out of cheese and drivers shouldn't be afraid to push and thereby compromise their race. What he's really attacking is the millions spent on things that nobody actually sees and which don't offer any tangible benefit to the racing (the brakes example is a good one).

Fair enough then I can't really disagree with what he's saying.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They slowed the cars down in 2014 and we had cars that could overtake, the only problem we had then was overall competitiveness because of the Mercedes engine, but then the complaints were that the cars were not much quicker than GP2 cars.

That's a problem for F1 that the cars have to be seen as being far quicker than anything else so as to be viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.

I don't think SJ is advocating slowing the cars down, just saying that some of things F1 is focusing on in the interests of speed have backfired. In fact he's saying the engines should have more power and much higher top speeds than now, but the cars should be difficult to drive. He's also saying the tyres shouldn't be made out of cheese and drivers shouldn't be afraid to push and thereby compromise their race. What he's really attacking is the millions spent on things that nobody actually sees and which don't offer any tangible benefit to the racing (the brakes example is a good one).

Fair enough then I can't really disagree with what he's saying.

I'm very uncomfortable with the standardized parts bit but OTOH he makes a compelling case for it as part of a whole package so I'm willing to concede I may be wrong about the concept. The picture he paints is pretty attractive I must say


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They slowed the cars down in 2014 and we had cars that could overtake, the only problem we had then was overall competitiveness because of the Mercedes engine, but then the complaints were that the cars were not much quicker than GP2 cars.

That's a problem for F1 that the cars have to be seen as being far quicker than anything else so as to be viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.

I don't think SJ is advocating slowing the cars down, just saying that some of things F1 is focusing on in the interests of speed have backfired. In fact he's saying the engines should have more power and much higher top speeds than now, but the cars should be difficult to drive. He's also saying the tyres shouldn't be made out of cheese and drivers shouldn't be afraid to push and thereby compromise their race. What he's really attacking is the millions spent on things that nobody actually sees and which don't offer any tangible benefit to the racing (the brakes example is a good one).

Fair enough then I can't really disagree with what he's saying.

I'm very uncomfortable with the standardized parts bit but OTOH he makes a compelling case for it as part of a whole package so I'm willing to concede I may be wrong about the concept. The picture he paints is pretty attractive I must say

Especially getting rid of the cheese tyres.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place


Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 2:32 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
They slowed the cars down in 2014 and we had cars that could overtake, the only problem we had then was overall competitiveness because of the Mercedes engine, but then the complaints were that the cars were not much quicker than GP2 cars.

That's a problem for F1 that the cars have to be seen as being far quicker than anything else so as to be viewed as the pinnacle of the sport.

I don't think SJ is advocating slowing the cars down, just saying that some of things F1 is focusing on in the interests of speed have backfired. In fact he's saying the engines should have more power and much higher top speeds than now, but the cars should be difficult to drive. He's also saying the tyres shouldn't be made out of cheese and drivers shouldn't be afraid to push and thereby compromise their race. What he's really attacking is the millions spent on things that nobody actually sees and which don't offer any tangible benefit to the racing (the brakes example is a good one).

Fair enough then I can't really disagree with what he's saying.

I'm very uncomfortable with the standardized parts bit but OTOH he makes a compelling case for it as part of a whole package so I'm willing to concede I may be wrong about the concept. The picture he paints is pretty attractive I must say

Especially getting rid of the cheese tyres.

yes 100% :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:03 am 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7715
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I don't think SJ is advocating slowing the cars down, just saying that some of things F1 is focusing on in the interests of speed have backfired. In fact he's saying the engines should have more power and much higher top speeds than now, but the cars should be difficult to drive. He's also saying the tyres shouldn't be made out of cheese and drivers shouldn't be afraid to push and thereby compromise their race. What he's really attacking is the millions spent on things that nobody actually sees and which don't offer any tangible benefit to the racing (the brakes example is a good one).

Fair enough then I can't really disagree with what he's saying.

I'm very uncomfortable with the standardized parts bit but OTOH he makes a compelling case for it as part of a whole package so I'm willing to concede I may be wrong about the concept. The picture he paints is pretty attractive I must say

Especially getting rid of the cheese tyres.

yes 100% :thumbup:

You two should stop agreeing immediately!!!! I am getting confused!!!!!!


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
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Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fair enough then I can't really disagree with what he's saying.

I'm very uncomfortable with the standardized parts bit but OTOH he makes a compelling case for it as part of a whole package so I'm willing to concede I may be wrong about the concept. The picture he paints is pretty attractive I must say

Especially getting rid of the cheese tyres.

yes 100% :thumbup:

You two should stop agreeing immediately!!!! I am getting confused!!!!!!

I think we just have different opinions about drivers? :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm very uncomfortable with the standardized parts bit but OTOH he makes a compelling case for it as part of a whole package so I'm willing to concede I may be wrong about the concept. The picture he paints is pretty attractive I must say

Especially getting rid of the cheese tyres.

yes 100% :thumbup:

You two should stop agreeing immediately!!!! I am getting confused!!!!!!

I think we just have different opinions about drivers? :)

That's fine, it would be boring otherwise!


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:46 pm 
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Just use a manual gearbox with a clutch pedal. I won't be surprised if some drivers get really caught out shifting manually with their hand n foot


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:21 am 
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Tyres made out of cheese is not the end of it.... they insist on soft cheese.... I mean what did we end up with last year as a choice of tyres:
1: super soft
2: hyper soft
3: i have run out of adjectives soft

Even 'Come on Bear' is too hard for wear out fast enough -- i mean is this really what racing is all about?

Building incredibly fast cars that then have to be slowed down through the tyres?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:29 pm 
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There are simple rules that can solve problems.

Specify that the bottom surface of the car must be a single flat plane - that would prevent them from generating a lot of downforce. Ban wings.

Naturally aspirated engines is another self-limiting rule - you are limited by how much air you can get into the engine.

Change the rules so that the cars have to race within the limits of the track.

The problem is the 'pinnacle of motor racing' requirement. It might make F1 the best racing formula, where the best drivers in the world go to prove they are the best driver in the world, but the cars would not be the fastest in terms of lap times.
It is like using Monaco. A track that drivers says is a great test of driving, but the racing is rubbish with today's cars. It could maybe be good again with cars that are great RACE cars, but slower than todays cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:06 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Specify that the bottom surface of the car must be a single flat plane - that would prevent them from generating a lot of downforce.

This is a bad idea, even within the scope of what you're trying to achieve. Underfloor downforce is by far the least affected by the wake of a car in front, and is a good way for cars to go quicker without hurting the racing.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:50 am 
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Exediron wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Specify that the bottom surface of the car must be a single flat plane - that would prevent them from generating a lot of downforce.

This is a bad idea, even within the scope of what you're trying to achieve. Underfloor downforce is by far the least affected by the wake of a car in front, and is a good way for cars to go quicker without hurting the racing.


You make cars very fast round corners and you reduce braking and acceleration by a large amount. Corners become bends and it becomes much more difficult to overtake.

Currently DRS and tyre regulations are tweaked to make overtaking possible. It would be preferable if they could overtake without those artificial tweaks.


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