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PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 10:37 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
Out of your list I would say only Bahrain is where Ferrari was faster - HAM also made mistakes in Canada but made the time back up quickly, and VET couldn't shake him off. Austria they were faster than Merc, but not the RBR, irrespective of how VER overtook LEC.

Although it's moot, as we seem to define "fastest" differently, so we're unlikely to agree on this point.


Ferrari pitted too early in Austria to cover an undercut that they didn't need to cover and also Max is likely slightly faster than CL so not representative to compare them perfectly.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 2:34 am 
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The question is, would Mercedes have stopped developing their car so early in the season if the gap to Ferrari after Hungary wasn’t so large?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 3:06 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
The question is, would Mercedes have stopped developing their car so early in the season if the gap to Ferrari after Hungary wasn’t so large?

If you're referring to the points gap then no, probably not. Mercedes' execution in the first half of the season was masterful and they milked close to the maximum from almost every weekend. Up to Germany you would be hard-pressed to criticize them at all. Mercedes won 10 of the first 12 races with Hamilton taking 8 of those wins. That's why the titles were basically decided so early. It didn't really have anything to do with the level of performance of the car. As we saw, by time the break was over; Ferrari had the edge. They were just too far behind in the points for it to matter.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:25 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
The question is, would Mercedes have stopped developing their car so early in the season if the gap to Ferrari after Hungary wasn’t so large?


Didn't they just bring upgrades for Suzuka? They never stopped completely, I think they just focused more on the next years, especially the 2021 changes.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:54 pm 
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Poles: Mercedes 8, Ferrari 9
Wins: Mercedes 13, Ferrari 3

Seems remarkable that Ferrari have now had more poles than Mercedes considering the first half of the season.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:01 pm 
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Yes Ferrari are the current quali kings, but Mercedes have a clear edge in the races, partly because of superior race management by the team.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:18 am 
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Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:37 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?


MADNESS


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:40 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?

MADNESS

So Hamilton's a bad qualifier, but super quick in the races?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:31 am 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?

MADNESS

So Hamilton's a bad qualifier, but super quick in the races?


I think his history shows that he is definitely better in races than qualifying. Certainly compared to his team mates. His race pace and race management is mighty.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:36 am 
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Exediron wrote:
So Hamilton's a bad qualifier, but super quick in the races?


I wouldn't say he is a "bad" qualifier, but his race pace is brilliant.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:27 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?



Yes yes, BOT had the beating of LEC yesterday because he's a better driver ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:29 am 
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A.J. wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?



Yes yes, BOT had the beating of LEC yesterday because he's a better driver ;)


Bottas definitely drove better than Leclerc yesterday IMO.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:50 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?



Yes yes, BOT had the beating of LEC yesterday because he's a better driver ;)


Bottas definitely drove better than Leclerc yesterday IMO.


Leclerc made quite a few driving errors actually. Was also not helped by himself and Albon being on AWFUL strategies


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:57 am 
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For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:14 am 
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Ferrari should have won more races than they have, the drivers and team have made too many errors. With most races being a 1 stopper and track position is king i would take locking the front row in qualifying.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:54 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Poles: Mercedes 8, Ferrari 9
Wins: Mercedes 13, Ferrari 3

Seems remarkable that Ferrari have now had more poles than Mercedes considering the first half of the season.

Yeah this thread went dead after Mercedes took such a big lead, it would be interesting to revise the situation with Ferrari's turnaround although that's harder to do in retrospect perhaps?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:56 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?



Yes yes, BOT had the beating of LEC yesterday because he's a better driver ;)

Yeah I guess as an overview you still have to look at Bottas' position in the WDC when deciding which has been the better car, he's in a comfortable second place.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:58 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Ferrari should have won more races than they have, the drivers and team have made too many errors. With most races being a 1 stopper and track position is king i would take locking the front row in qualifying.

Indeed to an extent this is what Mercedes did in 2017.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?

MADNESS

So Hamilton's a bad qualifier, but super quick in the races?

A bad qualifier who has out-qualified every single teammate he's had including multiple world champions? A bad qualifier who has 20 more pole positions than anyone else in history? I think a new theory is needed here (not saying that's what you personally believe).


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:05 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 3:30 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


How can you really write this nonsense?

The Ferrari is faster than the Mercedes who has better tyre life at the end of the stint.

You do understand that tyre longevity is what race pace is all about?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


How can you really write this nonsense?

The Ferrari is faster than the Mercedes who has better tyre life at the end of the stint.

You do understand that tyre longevity is what race pace is all about?

It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it. It's still fastest on Sunday. Their speed advantage in qualifying is not down to an engine mode that they can't run during the race. Yes they have such a mode but so do the other teams. In both qualifying trim and race trim, Ferrari have the fastest car in terms of outright pace.

Tire life is a different story though. We've seen time and again since the mid-season break that Ferrari are stronger early in a stint and that, as a stint goes on, there is eventually a crossover point where they begin to lose out to Mercedes. Aside from Singapore, where Ferrari just seemed faster all weekend, this has been the case. That doesn't make them "slower". It makes them strategically compromised and in many cases, it means that Mercedes can produce a superior overall race time either by stopping less or just by maintaining a competitive pace longer while Ferrari have periods of suffering.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:08 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Poles: Mercedes 8, Ferrari 9
Wins: Mercedes 13, Ferrari 3

Seems remarkable that Ferrari have now had more poles than Mercedes considering the first half of the season.


According to Mercedes Ferrari have 0.7-0.8secs advantage in the straights during their hot lap in qualifying. That is just too big of an advantage to overcome. Having said that credit should also go to Ferrari as this is the first time after many years their upgrades have worked. They are definitely the most improved team this season.

IMO Bahrain was the only race where Mercedes was second best and in Asutria RBR had advantage in the race over Ferrari. Mercedes had serious overheating issues there. In Mexico since Max race got ruined and Hamilton also said he lost little performance due to first lap incident. It is difficult to say. Bottas pitted just 1 lap before Vettel and the gap between them was less than 2secs. Bottas was in the traffic in early part of the race and with Max. He was also asked to cool his brakes. Considering that if you have to think Mercedes was faster again in the race than Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


How can you really write this nonsense?

The Ferrari is faster than the Mercedes who has better tyre life at the end of the stint.

You do understand that tyre longevity is what race pace is all about?

It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it. It's still fastest on Sunday. Their speed advantage in qualifying is not down to an engine mode that they can't run during the race. Yes they have such a mode but so do the other teams. In both qualifying trim and race trim, Ferrari have the fastest car in terms of outright pace.

Tire life is a different story though. We've seen time and again since the mid-season break that Ferrari are stronger early in a stint and that, as a stint goes on, there is eventually a crossover point where they begin to lose out to Mercedes. Aside from Singapore, where Ferrari just seemed faster all weekend, this has been the case. That doesn't make them "slower". It makes them strategically compromised and in many cases, it means that Mercedes can produce a superior overall race time either by stopping less or just by maintaining a competitive pace longer while Ferrari have periods of suffering.


BS remains BS whatever way it is dressed.

How does having poorer tyre life than Mercedes not make them slower? We saw in Suzuka what poorer tyre life can do.

You have some warped logic going on right there.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


How can you really write this nonsense?

The Ferrari is faster than the Mercedes who has better tyre life at the end of the stint.

You do understand that tyre longevity is what race pace is all about?

It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it.


You pulled that out of where? And even if we assume your baseless assumption is true, that doesn't point to better tire management at all. It could also be that the engine can only run at higher modes for a limited time due to reliability. It could also mean engine is thirsty. You basically made a baseless assumption, with no proof, and then use it to "prove" that Ferrari's bad race pace is all down to tires. Jesus.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:06 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


How can you really write this nonsense?

The Ferrari is faster than the Mercedes who has better tyre life at the end of the stint.

You do understand that tyre longevity is what race pace is all about?

It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it. It's still fastest on Sunday. Their speed advantage in qualifying is not down to an engine mode that they can't run during the race. Yes they have such a mode but so do the other teams. In both qualifying trim and race trim, Ferrari have the fastest car in terms of outright pace.

Tire life is a different story though. We've seen time and again since the mid-season break that Ferrari are stronger early in a stint and that, as a stint goes on, there is eventually a crossover point where they begin to lose out to Mercedes. Aside from Singapore, where Ferrari just seemed faster all weekend, this has been the case. That doesn't make them "slower". It makes them strategically compromised and in many cases, it means that Mercedes can produce a superior overall race time either by stopping less or just by maintaining a competitive pace longer while Ferrari have periods of suffering.


BS remains BS whatever way it is dressed.

How does having poorer tyre life than Mercedes not make them slower? We saw in Suzuka what poorer tyre life can do.

You have some warped logic going on right there.

You're too emotionally invested. Perhaps you can tell me what part of my post you disagree with? That might be a better place to start if we hope to have a mature conversation. We saw in Italy that Ferrari took pole and that no one could pass them (even when their tires went off) due to the fact that they were too quick down the straight. If there is something that I've said that you disagree with, please point it out specifically.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:09 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
For those who seemingly didn't get the emoticon at the end, it wasn't a serious comment re: LEC/BOT

The Merc is faster in race trim, and kinder on its tyres - while the Ferrari is still a one-trick pony. Their only chance of winning is to lock out the front row, and in the race use the 2nd driver to slow the pack down while the lead driver escapes.

No actually the Ferrari is the fastest both on Saturdays and Sundays. The Mercedes just has better tire life most of the time; which means that the tires drop off in the Ferrari faster than they do in the Mercedes; which effectively creates a better "race pace" for Mercedes. It's starting to get annoying to hear the likes of Ted Kravitz and Martin Brundle say that Ferrari don't have their power advantage during the races. They absolutely do. Try overtaking one of them if you doubt it. It's the tires that are Mercedes' saving grace.


How can you really write this nonsense?

The Ferrari is faster than the Mercedes who has better tyre life at the end of the stint.

You do understand that tyre longevity is what race pace is all about?

It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it.


You pulled that out of where? And even if we assume your baseless assumption is true, that doesn't point to better tire management at all. It could also be that the engine can only run at higher modes for a limited time due to reliability. It could also mean engine is thirsty. You basically made a baseless assumption, with no proof, and then use it to "prove" that Ferrari's bad race pace is all down to tires. Jesus.

Sigh, what? What are you even talking about? Ferrari are faster on the straights both in qualifying and in the race. That isn't baseless. It's empirical. We don't have to guess how fast they are on the straights. That is all captured. What part my post do you disagree with? It's funny how all of F1 is well aware of the massive PU advantage that Ferrari now have but stalwart forum members insist on pretending that it isn't there...


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it.


You pulled that out of where? And even if we assume your baseless assumption is true, that doesn't point to better tire management at all. It could also be that the engine can only run at higher modes for a limited time due to reliability. It could also mean engine is thirsty. You basically made a baseless assumption, with no proof, and then use it to "prove" that Ferrari's bad race pace is all down to tires. Jesus.

Sigh, what? What are you even talking about? Ferrari are faster on the straights both in qualifying and in the race. That isn't baseless. It's empirical. We don't have to guess how fast they are on the straights. That is all captured. What part my post do you disagree with? It's funny how all of F1 is well aware of the massive PU advantage that Ferrari now have but stalwart forum members insist on pretending that it isn't there...


So you went from setting the fastest lap, to being fastest on the straights? It's not a drag race, there are corners too on circuits.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:54 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it.


You pulled that out of where? And even if we assume your baseless assumption is true, that doesn't point to better tire management at all. It could also be that the engine can only run at higher modes for a limited time due to reliability. It could also mean engine is thirsty. You basically made a baseless assumption, with no proof, and then use it to "prove" that Ferrari's bad race pace is all down to tires. Jesus.

Sigh, what? What are you even talking about? Ferrari are faster on the straights both in qualifying and in the race. That isn't baseless. It's empirical. We don't have to guess how fast they are on the straights. That is all captured. What part my post do you disagree with? It's funny how all of F1 is well aware of the massive PU advantage that Ferrari now have but stalwart forum members insist on pretending that it isn't there...


So you went from setting the fastest lap, to being fastest on the straights? It's not a drag race, there are corners too on circuits.

Yes they would set the fastest lap on fresh tires during the race too. There is nothing magical about Sunday that makes their car slower than it is on Saturday. They simply lose out relative to Mercedes over the duration of a long stint because they lose tire life faster than Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
It seems that you didn't comprehend what I wrote (or perhaps stopped reading after the first sentence). If there was a safety car late in a race and all of the front-runners pitted for tires to go for the fastest lap; the Ferrari would be most likely to get it.


You pulled that out of where? And even if we assume your baseless assumption is true, that doesn't point to better tire management at all. It could also be that the engine can only run at higher modes for a limited time due to reliability. It could also mean engine is thirsty. You basically made a baseless assumption, with no proof, and then use it to "prove" that Ferrari's bad race pace is all down to tires. Jesus.

Sigh, what? What are you even talking about? Ferrari are faster on the straights both in qualifying and in the race. That isn't baseless. It's empirical. We don't have to guess how fast they are on the straights. That is all captured. What part my post do you disagree with? It's funny how all of F1 is well aware of the massive PU advantage that Ferrari now have but stalwart forum members insist on pretending that it isn't there...


So you went from setting the fastest lap, to being fastest on the straights? It's not a drag race, there are corners too on circuits.

Yes they would set the fastest lap on fresh tires during the race too. There is nothing magical about Sunday that makes their car slower than it is on Saturday. They simply lose out relative to Mercedes over the duration of a long stint because they lose tire life faster than Mercedes.

Think you're being deliberately obtuse here. No one is claiming the day of the week has anything to do with the pace. "Fast on sunday" means race pace over a stint and over the race, which is heavily affected by tyre wear. As Vettel touched on in the PC, their poor tyre management is masked on saturdays when you bolt on a new set and don't need to worry about wear.
Yes they are fast on straights, which together with their quali pace enable them to take the fight to Mercedes, but they're not capitalizing on that as well as they could and should.
Their speed on the straights is also not solely because of a power advantage but because of a combination of power and design philosophy which means inferior downforce and causes the poor tyre life.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Ferrari need to realise that all they have to do to win is keep track position. They have the straight line speed advantage. Hamilton does not look in the mood to take risks and Bottas suffers especially badly in dirty air and is quite meek anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Ferrari need to realise that all they have to do to win is keep track position. They have the straight line speed advantage. Hamilton does not look in the mood to take risks and Bottas suffers especially badly in dirty air and is quite meek anyway.

They still risk being undercut by the Mercedes.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sigh, what? What are you even talking about? Ferrari are faster on the straights both in qualifying and in the race. That isn't baseless. It's empirical. We don't have to guess how fast they are on the straights. That is all captured. What part my post do you disagree with? It's funny how all of F1 is well aware of the massive PU advantage that Ferrari now have but stalwart forum members insist on pretending that it isn't there...


So you went from setting the fastest lap, to being fastest on the straights? It's not a drag race, there are corners too on circuits.

Yes they would set the fastest lap on fresh tires during the race too. There is nothing magical about Sunday that makes their car slower than it is on Saturday. They simply lose out relative to Mercedes over the duration of a long stint because they lose tire life faster than Mercedes.

Think you're being deliberately obtuse here. No one is claiming the day of the week has anything to do with the pace. "Fast on sunday" means race pace over a stint and over the race, which is heavily affected by tyre wear. As Vettel touched on in the PC, their poor tyre management is masked on saturdays when you bolt on a new set and don't need to worry about wear.
Yes they are fast on straights, which together with their quali pace enable them to take the fight to Mercedes, but they're not capitalizing on that as well as they could and should.
Their speed on the straights is also not solely because of a power advantage but because of a combination of power and design philosophy which means inferior downforce and causes the poor tyre life.

"Deliberately obtuse"? Interesting. Why don't you read my post and then tell me what part of it you disagree with. I've been asking people to do that but it seems they can't. I get the feeling people just argue reflexively over certain topics.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Sigh, what? What are you even talking about? Ferrari are faster on the straights both in qualifying and in the race. That isn't baseless. It's empirical. We don't have to guess how fast they are on the straights. That is all captured. What part my post do you disagree with? It's funny how all of F1 is well aware of the massive PU advantage that Ferrari now have but stalwart forum members insist on pretending that it isn't there...


So you went from setting the fastest lap, to being fastest on the straights? It's not a drag race, there are corners too on circuits.

Yes they would set the fastest lap on fresh tires during the race too. There is nothing magical about Sunday that makes their car slower than it is on Saturday. They simply lose out relative to Mercedes over the duration of a long stint because they lose tire life faster than Mercedes.

Think you're being deliberately obtuse here. No one is claiming the day of the week has anything to do with the pace. "Fast on sunday" means race pace over a stint and over the race, which is heavily affected by tyre wear. As Vettel touched on in the PC, their poor tyre management is masked on saturdays when you bolt on a new set and don't need to worry about wear.
Yes they are fast on straights, which together with their quali pace enable them to take the fight to Mercedes, but they're not capitalizing on that as well as they could and should.
Their speed on the straights is also not solely because of a power advantage but because of a combination of power and design philosophy which means inferior downforce and causes the poor tyre life.

"Deliberately obtuse"? Interesting. Why don't you read my post and then tell me what part of it you disagree with. I've been asking people to do that but it seems they can't. I get the feeling people just argue reflexively over certain topics.

I'm disagreeing with you saying that Ferrari have the best pace on sundays based on them being able to pull one fast lap on new tyres. That's not race pace. And it's a point no one is arguing against so really nothing more than a straw man.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:27 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Ferrari need to realise that all they have to do to win is keep track position. They have the straight line speed advantage. Hamilton does not look in the mood to take risks and Bottas suffers especially badly in dirty air and is quite meek anyway.

They still risk being undercut by the Mercedes.


They need to come in before Merc. Obviously you can't guarantee this but the best strategy would just be come in earlier than you think is possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Or perhaps because of their superior driver!?

Yes yes, BOT had the beating of LEC yesterday because he's a better driver ;)

Bottas definitely drove better than Leclerc yesterday IMO.

I suppose that depends a bit on if you blame him for the collision with Max. I would say he didn't drive very well on Friday or Saturday, but he was much better on Sunday admittedly.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:52 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yes they would set the fastest lap on fresh tires during the race too. There is nothing magical about Sunday that makes their car slower than it is on Saturday. They simply lose out relative to Mercedes over the duration of a long stint because they lose tire life faster than Mercedes.

Think you're being deliberately obtuse here. No one is claiming the day of the week has anything to do with the pace. "Fast on sunday" means race pace over a stint and over the race, which is heavily affected by tyre wear. As Vettel touched on in the PC, their poor tyre management is masked on saturdays when you bolt on a new set and don't need to worry about wear.
Yes they are fast on straights, which together with their quali pace enable them to take the fight to Mercedes, but they're not capitalizing on that as well as they could and should.
Their speed on the straights is also not solely because of a power advantage but because of a combination of power and design philosophy which means inferior downforce and causes the poor tyre life.

"Deliberately obtuse"? Interesting. Why don't you read my post and then tell me what part of it you disagree with. I've been asking people to do that but it seems they can't. I get the feeling people just argue reflexively over certain topics.

I'm disagreeing with you saying that Ferrari have the best pace on sundays based on them being able to pull one fast lap on new tyres. That's not race pace. And it's a point no one is arguing against so really nothing more than a straw man.

So, in other words, you are arguing with me despite the fact that you actually don't disagree with what I said (which included that Mercedes produce a better race pace)? Is that about right?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Ferrari need to realise that all they have to do to win is keep track position. They have the straight line speed advantage. Hamilton does not look in the mood to take risks and Bottas suffers especially badly in dirty air and is quite meek anyway.

They still risk being undercut by the Mercedes.


They need to come in before Merc. Obviously you can't guarantee this but the best strategy would just be come in earlier than you think is possible.

The problem there is their poor tyre management.

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Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:47 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Yes they would set the fastest lap on fresh tires during the race too. There is nothing magical about Sunday that makes their car slower than it is on Saturday. They simply lose out relative to Mercedes over the duration of a long stint because they lose tire life faster than Mercedes.

Think you're being deliberately obtuse here. No one is claiming the day of the week has anything to do with the pace. "Fast on sunday" means race pace over a stint and over the race, which is heavily affected by tyre wear. As Vettel touched on in the PC, their poor tyre management is masked on saturdays when you bolt on a new set and don't need to worry about wear.
Yes they are fast on straights, which together with their quali pace enable them to take the fight to Mercedes, but they're not capitalizing on that as well as they could and should.
Their speed on the straights is also not solely because of a power advantage but because of a combination of power and design philosophy which means inferior downforce and causes the poor tyre life.

"Deliberately obtuse"? Interesting. Why don't you read my post and then tell me what part of it you disagree with. I've been asking people to do that but it seems they can't. I get the feeling people just argue reflexively over certain topics.

I'm disagreeing with you saying that Ferrari have the best pace on sundays based on them being able to pull one fast lap on new tyres. That's not race pace. And it's a point no one is arguing against so really nothing more than a straw man.

So, in other words, you are arguing with me despite the fact that you actually don't disagree with what I said (which included that Mercedes produce a better race pace)? Is that about right?

No it's not. Forget it, this just isn't worth my time.

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Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


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