planetf1.com

Lt. Drebin wrote:But, who guarantees that Ocon will not be even worse than Bottas itself? If that is not the case, Mercedes will be in trouble finding someone who will in a few years replace Hamilton.

If Mercedes maintain there competitiveness of 2017/2018 then there will be a long queue of drivers trying to get into that car and all eyeing Hamiltons retirement. Basically everybody will want into the car and Mercedes will be able to get one of Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc or whoever is the current big thing into the car.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I wouldn't have been as sorry for Bottas if it wasn't for the fact that he signed this deal for the following year with an option to extend on top of that. That basically made it sound much more likely he would get more than 1 years extension with the team than when he first signed a new deal in 2017. The fact that is looking less likely given the sort of deal he signed is what I think is unfair. What is the meaning of signing a contract for a 1 year deal "with an option to extend" ? Even if it is the teams option, it showed they had far more trust in him the middle of last season then then they did in 2017. It wouldn't have bothered me as much if he just had a 1 year extension with nothing implying he would get a good chance of getting another.

I think that would have been the case if Ocon's deal with Renault had not fallen through.

Johnson wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:I am curious, what was the gap between VD and Alonso in each year?

Also, did Massa even close the gap to Alonso? The closet he got to Alonso was the first year I always thought which makes sense as Alonso was new.

My own figures:-

Alonso > Vandoorne
2017 - 0.3s
2018 - 0.38s

Alonso > Massa
2010 - 0.23s
2011 - 0.37s
2012 - 0.26s
2013 - 0.17s

Thanks to you and others that answered.

1) It shows how different head to head and averages can be. On head to head, I think Massa had a strong 2013 but the gap was still pretty much there. Alonso appears to have gone off form in the period he signed for Mclaren. I think its pretty fair to say Massa was basically 0.250 behind on average with about a +/- 0.100 either side of that for some seasonal variation.

2) This is kind of what I suspected, there variation between 2017 and 2018 for Alonso and VD is negliable at 0.080. My gut feeling was there wasn't much difference in those two years.

I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I wouldn't have been as sorry for Bottas if it wasn't for the fact that he signed this deal for the following year with an option to extend on top of that. That basically made it sound much more likely he would get more than 1 years extension with the team than when he first signed a new deal in 2017. The fact that is looking less likely given the sort of deal he signed is what I think is unfair. What is the meaning of signing a contract for a 1 year deal "with an option to extend" ? Even if it is the teams option, it showed they had far more trust in him the middle of last season then then they did in 2017. It wouldn't have bothered me as much if he just had a 1 year extension with nothing implying he would get a good chance of getting another.

Smart move by Mercedes as after that his competitiveness dropped off drastically. I think he only looks good when Hamilton isn't on top form. Mercedes probably know that better than anybody now. He signed his contract last year at the absolutely perfect time for him.

If Mercedes had waited, he probably would have been dropped for 2019. So I think if anything you should be glad he signed it when he did.

Ahead when both finished before contract was signed-
LH 5-3 VB (would be 5-4 without baku puncture)

After contract signed
LH 12-0 VS (would be 11-1 without Russia)

Qualifying followed a similar pattern.

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:I am curious, what was the gap between VD and Alonso in each year?

Also, did Massa even close the gap to Alonso? The closet he got to Alonso was the first year I always thought which makes sense as Alonso was new.

My own figures:-

Alonso > Vandoorne
2017 - 0.3s
2018 - 0.38s

Alonso > Massa
2010 - 0.23s
2011 - 0.37s
2012 - 0.26s
2013 - 0.17s

Thanks to you and others that answered.

1) It shows how different head to head and averages can be. On head to head, I think Massa had a strong 2013 but the gap was still pretty much there. Alonso appears to have gone off form in the period he signed for Mclaren. I think its pretty fair to say Massa was basically 0.250 behind on average with about a +/- 0.100 either side of that for some seasonal variation.

2) This is kind of what I suspected, there variation between 2017 and 2018 for Alonso and VD is negliable at 0.080. My gut feeling was there wasn't much difference in those two years.

I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

Jenson Button had the qualifying speed of a midfield driver. I rate him no quicker than Massa, Raikkonen or Webber over one lap.

pokerman wrote:I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

I think it's more a case of the 2015 McLaren being such an unreliable and unpredictable POS that the qualifying head-to-head for that year is highly untrustworthy, personally.

Johnson wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:I wouldn't have been as sorry for Bottas if it wasn't for the fact that he signed this deal for the following year with an option to extend on top of that. That basically made it sound much more likely he would get more than 1 years extension with the team than when he first signed a new deal in 2017. The fact that is looking less likely given the sort of deal he signed is what I think is unfair. What is the meaning of signing a contract for a 1 year deal "with an option to extend" ? Even if it is the teams option, it showed they had far more trust in him the middle of last season then then they did in 2017. It wouldn't have bothered me as much if he just had a 1 year extension with nothing implying he would get a good chance of getting another.

Smart move by Mercedes as after that his competitiveness dropped off drastically. I think he only looks good when Hamilton isn't on top form. Mercedes probably know that better than anybody now. He signed his contract last year at the absolutely perfect time for him.

If Mercedes had waited, he probably would have been dropped for 2019. So I think if anything you should be glad he signed it when he did.

Ahead when both finished before contract was signed-
LH 5-3 VB (would be 5-4 without baku puncture)

After contract signed
LH 12-0 VS (would be 11-1 without Russia)

Qualifying followed a similar pattern.

Still not sure...

They knew what he possibly could be like in the second half of the season as he showed it in 2017. So signing him for the 1 year deal as well as possible another one to me showed that even if they waited a bit, I'm still pretty certain he would have been there in 2019.

I think that bad luck just hurt him too much this year which yes, is a negative. I personally thought that in the first part of the season, despite Australia, he looked at his strongest while being with Mercedes. I think he has a chance of being better next year and still has a chance to remain the following year.

Yes but 2017 car was “the diva” and the poor second half to 2017 looked like an anomaly at the point he was re-signed. Now he has had two poor half seasons. He is just inconsistent.

If his first half of 2018 was the same as his 2nd half, he would be out of Mercedes IMO.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:I am curious, what was the gap between VD and Alonso in each year?

Also, did Massa even close the gap to Alonso? The closet he got to Alonso was the first year I always thought which makes sense as Alonso was new.

My own figures:-

Alonso > Vandoorne
2017 - 0.3s
2018 - 0.38s

Alonso > Massa
2010 - 0.23s
2011 - 0.37s
2012 - 0.26s
2013 - 0.17s

Thanks to you and others that answered.

1) It shows how different head to head and averages can be. On head to head, I think Massa had a strong 2013 but the gap was still pretty much there. Alonso appears to have gone off form in the period he signed for Mclaren. I think its pretty fair to say Massa was basically 0.250 behind on average with about a +/- 0.100 either side of that for some seasonal variation.

2) This is kind of what I suspected, there variation between 2017 and 2018 for Alonso and VD is negliable at 0.080. My gut feeling was there wasn't much difference in those two years.

I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

Jenson Button had the qualifying speed of a midfield driver. I rate him no quicker than Massa, Raikkonen or Webber over one lap.

I think it's no coincidence that he was Alonso's strongest teammate post Hamilton.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

I think it's more a case of the 2015 McLaren being such an unreliable and unpredictable POS that the qualifying head-to-head for that year is highly untrustworthy, personally.

That possibly has some legs but even the year after Button was better than the likes of Massa, Kimi and Vandoorne.

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote:

pokerman wrote: My own figures:-

Alonso > Vandoorne
2017 - 0.3s
2018 - 0.38s

Alonso > Massa
2010 - 0.23s
2011 - 0.37s
2012 - 0.26s
2013 - 0.17s

Thanks to you and others that answered.

1) It shows how different head to head and averages can be. On head to head, I think Massa had a strong 2013 but the gap was still pretty much there. Alonso appears to have gone off form in the period he signed for Mclaren. I think its pretty fair to say Massa was basically 0.250 behind on average with about a +/- 0.100 either side of that for some seasonal variation.

2) This is kind of what I suspected, there variation between 2017 and 2018 for Alonso and VD is negliable at 0.080. My gut feeling was there wasn't much difference in those two years.

I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

Jenson Button had the qualifying speed of a midfield driver. I rate him no quicker than Massa, Raikkonen or Webber over one lap.

I think it's no coincidence that he was Alonso's strongest teammate post Hamilton.

Button was outqualified 37-33 by an old Rubens Barrichello. He lost 10-9 against Perez in qualifying and outqualified a rookie Magnussen 9-10, that’s as even as it gets. Perez and Magnussen are textbook midfield drivers.

Button also has the worst record in qualifying of all the world champions in history. I believe he’s been outqualified 60% of the time.

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

KingVoid wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Johnson wrote: Thanks to you and others that answered.

1) It shows how different head to head and averages can be. On head to head, I think Massa had a strong 2013 but the gap was still pretty much there. Alonso appears to have gone off form in the period he signed for Mclaren. I think its pretty fair to say Massa was basically 0.250 behind on average with about a +/- 0.100 either side of that for some seasonal variation.

2) This is kind of what I suspected, there variation between 2017 and 2018 for Alonso and VD is negliable at 0.080. My gut feeling was there wasn't much difference in those two years.

I don't believe that Alonso lost form at McLaren, it was more of a case of Button being a stronger driver than the likes of Massa.

Jenson Button had the qualifying speed of a midfield driver. I rate him no quicker than Massa, Raikkonen or Webber over one lap.

I think it's no coincidence that he was Alonso's strongest teammate post Hamilton.

Button was outqualified 37-33 by an old Rubens Barrichello. He lost 10-9 against Perez in qualifying and outqualified a rookie Magnussen 9-10, that’s as even as it gets. Perez and Magnussen are textbook midfield drivers.

Button also has the worst record in qualifying of all the world champions in history. I believe he’s been outqualified 60% of the time.

You make a good point, all in all I guess it makes Massa look really bad, also Vandoorne, unless like has been said Alonso actually drove poorly in 2015 and 2016?

pokerman wrote:You make a good point, all in all I guess it makes Massa look really bad, also Vandoorne, unless like has been said Alonso actually drove poorly in 2015 and 2016?

No need to add 2016, he beat Button by about the expected margin that year.

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You make a good point, all in all I guess it makes Massa look really bad, also Vandoorne, unless like has been said Alonso actually drove poorly in 2015 and 2016?

No need to add 2016, he beat Button by about the expected margin that year.

Half the margin he beat the likes of Massa, Kimi and Vandoorne by.

Also let's not forget after Button announced his retirement he zoned out, something he's admitted himself and regrets making the announcement so early, there is a decided dip in performance.

Bottas starts 2019 like a dead man. His main sponsor left him dissapointed of his bad results.

http://www.f1reader.com/news/valtteri-b ... 039-215068

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You make a good point, all in all I guess it makes Massa look really bad, also Vandoorne, unless like has been said Alonso actually drove poorly in 2015 and 2016?

No need to add 2016, he beat Button by about the expected margin that year.

Half the margin he beat the likes of Massa, Kimi and Vandoorne by.

Yeah, and that's what I expected. Button in 2016 was a much stronger driver than Kimi in 2014 or Massa from 2010-2013 (or probably ever).

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Exediron wrote:

pokerman wrote:You make a good point, all in all I guess it makes Massa look really bad, also Vandoorne, unless like has been said Alonso actually drove poorly in 2015 and 2016?

No need to add 2016, he beat Button by about the expected margin that year.

Half the margin he beat the likes of Massa, Kimi and Vandoorne by.

Yeah, and that's what I expected. Button in 2016 was a much stronger driver than Kimi in 2014 or Massa from 2010-2013 (or probably ever).

Fair enough

Lt. Drebin wrote:Bottas starts 2019 like a dead man. His main sponsor left him dissapointed of his bad results.

http://www.f1reader.com/news/valtteri-b ... 039-215068

Sounds like he feels that Bottas has gone as far as he's going to go.

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:Bottas starts 2019 like a dead man. His main sponsor left him dissapointed of his bad results.

http://www.f1reader.com/news/valtteri-b ... 039-215068

Sounds like he feels that Bottas has gone as far as he's going to go.

Still think he could well have a better season than his first year with Mercedes. And in that year despite having the teams only retirement, he was closer to Hamilton points wise than Rosberg was in 2014 or 2015. I know Rosberg may have had worse luck, but the fact other teams were so close to Mercedes sort of made things a fair bit more challenging. I doubt Bottas will be quite as bad as he has been recently. But I personally don't think he's been that bad. I think Hamilton has been at his absolute strongest in the 2nd half of the year.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:Bottas starts 2019 like a dead man. His main sponsor left him dissapointed of his bad results.

http://www.f1reader.com/news/valtteri-b ... 039-215068

Sounds like he feels that Bottas has gone as far as he's going to go.

Still think he could well have a better season than his first year with Mercedes. And in that year despite having the teams only retirement, he was closer to Hamilton points wise than Rosberg was in 2014 or 2015. I know Rosberg may have had worse luck, but the fact other teams were so close to Mercedes sort of made things a fair bit more challenging. I doubt Bottas will be quite as bad as he has been recently. But I personally don't think he's been that bad. I think Hamilton has been at his absolute strongest in the 2nd half of the year.

He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

Jezza13 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:Bottas starts 2019 like a dead man. His main sponsor left him dissapointed of his bad results.

http://www.f1reader.com/news/valtteri-b ... 039-215068

Sounds like he feels that Bottas has gone as far as he's going to go.

Still think he could well have a better season than his first year with Mercedes. And in that year despite having the teams only retirement, he was closer to Hamilton points wise than Rosberg was in 2014 or 2015. I know Rosberg may have had worse luck, but the fact other teams were so close to Mercedes sort of made things a fair bit more challenging. I doubt Bottas will be quite as bad as he has been recently. But I personally don't think he's been that bad. I think Hamilton has been at his absolute strongest in the 2nd half of the year.

He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Lt. Drebin wrote:Bottas starts 2019 like a dead man. His main sponsor left him dissapointed of his bad results.

http://www.f1reader.com/news/valtteri-b ... 039-215068

Sounds like he feels that Bottas has gone as far as he's going to go.

Still think he could well have a better season than his first year with Mercedes. And in that year despite having the teams only retirement, he was closer to Hamilton points wise than Rosberg was in 2014 or 2015. I know Rosberg may have had worse luck, but the fact other teams were so close to Mercedes sort of made things a fair bit more challenging. I doubt Bottas will be quite as bad as he has been recently. But I personally don't think he's been that bad. I think Hamilton has been at his absolute strongest in the 2nd half of the year.

He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

He finished 161 pts behind Hamilton while Ferrari finished 84 pts behind Merc in the CC. If it wasn't for Hamiltons outstanding driving & Vettels mistakes, Ferrari could well have, in fact probably would've, taken the CC last year which I imagine wouldn't have gone down well at all at Merc HQ.

Yeah he had team orders in Russia & yeah he had bad luck in Baku, but with Leclerc joining Ferrari & another close season expected in the WCC, Bottas will need to lift his game & be right up there with Hamilton to give Merc every chance of retaining the constructors trophy.

I think that's a task that's beyond him but i'm also not yet convinced Ocon could do much better either.

Jezza13 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Still think he could well have a better season than his first year with Mercedes. And in that year despite having the teams only retirement, he was closer to Hamilton points wise than Rosberg was in 2014 or 2015. I know Rosberg may have had worse luck, but the fact other teams were so close to Mercedes sort of made things a fair bit more challenging. I doubt Bottas will be quite as bad as he has been recently. But I personally don't think he's been that bad. I think Hamilton has been at his absolute strongest in the 2nd half of the year.

He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

He finished 161 pts behind Hamilton while Ferrari finished 84 pts behind Merc in the CC. If it wasn't for Hamiltons outstanding driving & Vettels mistakes, Ferrari could well have, in fact probably would've, taken the CC last year which I imagine wouldn't have gone down well at all at Merc HQ.

Yeah he had team orders in Russia & yeah he had bad luck in Baku, but with Leclerc joining Ferrari & another close season expected in the WCC, Bottas will need to lift his game & be right up there with Hamilton to give Merc every chance of retaining the constructors trophy.

I think that's a task that's beyond him but i'm also not yet convinced Ocon could do much better either.

I was comparing how Kimi is said to have had a good season whilst Bottas had a poor season but only finished 4 points behind Kimi and if not for team orders would have beat Kimi.

Bottas had quite a good start in 2017 - maybe because he used his head and figured out the car a bit earlier than Hamilton. Once Hamilton knew what to do the gap opened up. Since then, the gap has been clear. Bottas has a No.2 driver attitude. Teamed with Hamilton, he is going to stay that way.
Wolff could have replaced him for 2018, and is responsible for him finishing 5th and not 3rd. Using team orders finished off Bottas.

Ferrari are IMO going to have a stronger driver line up in 2019 and its possible keeping Bottas on will result in Mercedes losing the Constructors Championship. Part of that would be down to Wolff.

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote: Still think he could well have a better season than his first year with Mercedes. And in that year despite having the teams only retirement, he was closer to Hamilton points wise than Rosberg was in 2014 or 2015. I know Rosberg may have had worse luck, but the fact other teams were so close to Mercedes sort of made things a fair bit more challenging. I doubt Bottas will be quite as bad as he has been recently. But I personally don't think he's been that bad. I think Hamilton has been at his absolute strongest in the 2nd half of the year.

He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

He finished 161 pts behind Hamilton while Ferrari finished 84 pts behind Merc in the CC. If it wasn't for Hamiltons outstanding driving & Vettels mistakes, Ferrari could well have, in fact probably would've, taken the CC last year which I imagine wouldn't have gone down well at all at Merc HQ.

Yeah he had team orders in Russia & yeah he had bad luck in Baku, but with Leclerc joining Ferrari & another close season expected in the WCC, Bottas will need to lift his game & be right up there with Hamilton to give Merc every chance of retaining the constructors trophy.

I think that's a task that's beyond him but i'm also not yet convinced Ocon could do much better either.

I was comparing how Kimi is said to have had a good season whilst Bottas had a poor season but only finished 4 points behind Kimi and if not for team orders would have beat Kimi.

Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

babararacucudada wrote:Bottas had quite a good start in 2017 - maybe because he used his head and figured out the car a bit earlier than Hamilton. Once Hamilton knew what to do the gap opened up. Since then, the gap has been clear. Bottas has a No.2 driver attitude. Teamed with Hamilton, he is going to stay that way.
Wolff could have replaced him for 2018, and is responsible for him finishing 5th and not 3rd. Using team orders finished off Bottas.

Ferrari are IMO going to have a stronger driver line up in 2019 and its possible keeping Bottas on will result in Mercedes losing the Constructors Championship. Part of that would be down to Wolff.

If you remember Bottas finished the 2017 season quite strongly after Hamilton had clinched the title and then started the 2018 season strongly so signing Bottas for the 2019 season was quite reasonable, however like you say it may cost Mercedes the 2019 WCC title.

motorfinger wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote: He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

He finished 161 pts behind Hamilton while Ferrari finished 84 pts behind Merc in the CC. If it wasn't for Hamiltons outstanding driving & Vettels mistakes, Ferrari could well have, in fact probably would've, taken the CC last year which I imagine wouldn't have gone down well at all at Merc HQ.

Yeah he had team orders in Russia & yeah he had bad luck in Baku, but with Leclerc joining Ferrari & another close season expected in the WCC, Bottas will need to lift his game & be right up there with Hamilton to give Merc every chance of retaining the constructors trophy.

I think that's a task that's beyond him but i'm also not yet convinced Ocon could do much better either.

I was comparing how Kimi is said to have had a good season whilst Bottas had a poor season but only finished 4 points behind Kimi and if not for team orders would have beat Kimi.

Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

That's quite simplistic when one driver is retiring whilst running in 3rd or 4th place and one driver retires from the lead of the race which also moved Kimi up one place, giving Kimi bespoke 3rd place finishes he lost 6 more points than Bottas so beat Bottas by 10 points but even that doesn't take into account Vettel punting Bottas off in France.

All in all points wise it was close between Bottas and Kimi but like I said Kimi is said to have had a good season and Bottas had a poor season, I think comparison here is also being made with their teammates were Hamilton had a far better season than Vettel and because there was a much bigger gap between Hamilton and Bottas then Bottas is seen as having a poorer season than Kimi which given the relative performances of the Mercedes and Ferrari can't really be true.

motorfinger wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote: He shouldn't have finished 5th in the WC last year with the resources he had at his disposal. I'm not sure Wolff would have expected him to challenge Hamilton last year, but I think it wouldn't have been unreasonable to expect him to end up 2nd, maybe 3rd at worse, at the end of the season.

Having said that, i'm also not sure Wolff did much for Bottas' confidence with his "wingman" comment after Hungary & the team orders in Russia, plus his comments that he "can guarantee that he (Ocon) is going to be in a good car in 2020", but Bottas should have had the strength to shut that out & concentrate on his driving.

My opinion is that anything short of a WC for Bottas this season will see Wolff showing him the door in favour of Ocon. I originally thought he'd end up back at Williams replacing Kubica, & I still think that's a possibility, or even a probability, though with his sponsor ditching him, I now honestly wouldn't be surprised to see Bottas without a career in F1 at the end of the season.

To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

He finished 161 pts behind Hamilton while Ferrari finished 84 pts behind Merc in the CC. If it wasn't for Hamiltons outstanding driving & Vettels mistakes, Ferrari could well have, in fact probably would've, taken the CC last year which I imagine wouldn't have gone down well at all at Merc HQ.

Yeah he had team orders in Russia & yeah he had bad luck in Baku, but with Leclerc joining Ferrari & another close season expected in the WCC, Bottas will need to lift his game & be right up there with Hamilton to give Merc every chance of retaining the constructors trophy.

I think that's a task that's beyond him but i'm also not yet convinced Ocon could do much better either.

I was comparing how Kimi is said to have had a good season whilst Bottas had a poor season but only finished 4 points behind Kimi and if not for team orders would have beat Kimi.

Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

Kimi may have had 2 more DNFs, but he has benifited from others misfortune quite lot earlier on in the season while Bottas hasn't really over the whole season. Kimi has basically got back a good deal of the points lost with good luck. Baku is one example. He was 6th and didnit look at all impressive then near the end that sudenly turned to 2nd due to mistakes and bad luck from other drivers. Then he had the 2 Mercedes driver retire in Austria. Gained 2 positions and 6 points there. He has probably gained around 25 points overall due to similar things happening. So overall, I would say he's no worse than Bottas for bad luck. I'd infact say Bottas was slightly worse off. Bottas just doesn't seem to have had any good luck this season. I personally think Botats's season was marginally better than Kimi's this year. Given how many say Kimi's season seemed good this year, I don't know why so many are against Bottas. He was not great in the 2nd half, but Hamilton being so good really has effected how Bottas has looked recently.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

pokerman wrote:

Jezza13 wrote:

pokerman wrote: To be fair to Bottas without team orders he would have finished 3rd in the WDC beating Kimi who many feel had a strong season in a car at least the equal of the Mercedes, strange how conceptions can vary.

He finished 161 pts behind Hamilton while Ferrari finished 84 pts behind Merc in the CC. If it wasn't for Hamiltons outstanding driving & Vettels mistakes, Ferrari could well have, in fact probably would've, taken the CC last year which I imagine wouldn't have gone down well at all at Merc HQ.

Yeah he had team orders in Russia & yeah he had bad luck in Baku, but with Leclerc joining Ferrari & another close season expected in the WCC, Bottas will need to lift his game & be right up there with Hamilton to give Merc every chance of retaining the constructors trophy.

I think that's a task that's beyond him but i'm also not yet convinced Ocon could do much better either.

I was comparing how Kimi is said to have had a good season whilst Bottas had a poor season but only finished 4 points behind Kimi and if not for team orders would have beat Kimi.

Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

Kimi may have had 2 more DNFs, but he has benifited from others misfortune quite lot earlier on in the season while Bottas hasn't really over the whole season. Kimi has basically got back a good deal of the points lost with good luck. Baku is one example. He was 6th and didnit look at all impressive then near the end that sudenly turned to 2nd due to mistakes and bad luck from other drivers. Then he had the 2 Mercedes driver retire in Austria. Gained 2 positions and 6 points there. He has probably gained around 25 points overall due to similar things happening. So overall, I would say he's no worse than Bottas for bad luck. I'd infact say Bottas was slightly worse off. Bottas just doesn't seem to have had any good luck this season. I personally think Botats's season was marginally better than Kimi's this year. Given how many say Kimi's season seemed good this year, I don't know why so many are against Bottas. He was not great in the 2nd half, but Hamilton being so good really has effected how Bottas has looked recently.

It's because of that, really. He started off strong but really faded in the second half. Kimi was probably more consistent overall - fewer peaks and troughs. But Bottas had the car to do much better than he did in the second half and he didn't score nearly as much as he should have done. He was pretty poor in the second half of the season tbh and that wiped out all the good work he'd done in the first half

Pointing out that Valteri finished behind Kimi due to team orders is not simplistic i guess? I agree that Valteri gets bashed a bit too much, but the usual strategy of not giving Kimi any credit doesn't help Valteri much IMO.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

motorfinger wrote: Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

Kimi may have had 2 more DNFs, but he has benifited from others misfortune quite lot earlier on in the season while Bottas hasn't really over the whole season. Kimi has basically got back a good deal of the points lost with good luck. Baku is one example. He was 6th and didnit look at all impressive then near the end that sudenly turned to 2nd due to mistakes and bad luck from other drivers. Then he had the 2 Mercedes driver retire in Austria. Gained 2 positions and 6 points there. He has probably gained around 25 points overall due to similar things happening. So overall, I would say he's no worse than Bottas for bad luck. I'd infact say Bottas was slightly worse off. Bottas just doesn't seem to have had any good luck this season. I personally think Botats's season was marginally better than Kimi's this year. Given how many say Kimi's season seemed good this year, I don't know why so many are against Bottas. He was not great in the 2nd half, but Hamilton being so good really has effected how Bottas has looked recently.

Thats just dishonest, surely Valteri benefited from some mishaps of others, prime example being that very said Baku where he only got the lead due to lucky SC, yet everyone is harping on about how he lost the win there. I am almost sure there are other examples.

Kimi had a "good season" relative to some of the poor ones he has had recently like 2014,2015 and 2017... if you are judging him against the best, Kimi had a poor season. But the bar for Kimi now is much lower and relative to the level he has been at the last few seasons - he had a good year.

But Vettel making many errors still beat him and was quicker 85% of the time. If Vettel didn't make so many errors, Kimi would have been thrashed.

motorfinger wrote:Pointing out that Valteri finished behind Kimi due to team orders is not simplistic i guess? I agree that Valteri gets bashed a bit too much, but the usual strategy of not giving Kimi any credit doesn't help Valteri much IMO.

In this case Kimi is getting credit and Bottas no credit.

motorfinger wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

motorfinger wrote: Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

Kimi may have had 2 more DNFs, but he has benifited from others misfortune quite lot earlier on in the season while Bottas hasn't really over the whole season. Kimi has basically got back a good deal of the points lost with good luck. Baku is one example. He was 6th and didnit look at all impressive then near the end that sudenly turned to 2nd due to mistakes and bad luck from other drivers. Then he had the 2 Mercedes driver retire in Austria. Gained 2 positions and 6 points there. He has probably gained around 25 points overall due to similar things happening. So overall, I would say he's no worse than Bottas for bad luck. I'd infact say Bottas was slightly worse off. Bottas just doesn't seem to have had any good luck this season. I personally think Botats's season was marginally better than Kimi's this year. Given how many say Kimi's season seemed good this year, I don't know why so many are against Bottas. He was not great in the 2nd half, but Hamilton being so good really has effected how Bottas has looked recently.

Thats just dishonest, surely Valteri benefited from some mishaps of others, prime example being that very said Baku where he only got the lead due to lucky SC, yet everyone is harping on about how he lost the win there. I am almost sure there are other examples.

How can Bottas have benefited in Baku when he didn't even finish the race?

pokerman wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

motorfinger wrote: Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

Kimi may have had 2 more DNFs, but he has benifited from others misfortune quite lot earlier on in the season while Bottas hasn't really over the whole season. Kimi has basically got back a good deal of the points lost with good luck. Baku is one example. He was 6th and didnit look at all impressive then near the end that sudenly turned to 2nd due to mistakes and bad luck from other drivers. Then he had the 2 Mercedes driver retire in Austria. Gained 2 positions and 6 points there. He has probably gained around 25 points overall due to similar things happening. So overall, I would say he's no worse than Bottas for bad luck. I'd infact say Bottas was slightly worse off. Bottas just doesn't seem to have had any good luck this season. I personally think Botats's season was marginally better than Kimi's this year. Given how many say Kimi's season seemed good this year, I don't know why so many are against Bottas. He was not great in the 2nd half, but Hamilton being so good really has effected how Bottas has looked recently.

Thats just dishonest, surely Valteri benefited from some mishaps of others, prime example being that very said Baku where he only got the lead due to lucky SC, yet everyone is harping on about how he lost the win there. I am almost sure there are other examples.

How can Bottas have benefited in Baku when he didn't even finish the race?

obvious one. People say he was unlucky to lose the win, which doesn't take into account that he was already lucky to be in that position in the first place. In other words, people tend to be a bit selective in choosing which bits of (bad) luck to highlight

Zoue wrote:

pokerman wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

motorfinger wrote: Kimi had two more DNFs, thats at least some 20 points lost.

Kimi may have had 2 more DNFs, but he has benifited from others misfortune quite lot earlier on in the season while Bottas hasn't really over the whole season. Kimi has basically got back a good deal of the points lost with good luck. Baku is one example. He was 6th and didnit look at all impressive then near the end that sudenly turned to 2nd due to mistakes and bad luck from other drivers. Then he had the 2 Mercedes driver retire in Austria. Gained 2 positions and 6 points there. He has probably gained around 25 points overall due to similar things happening. So overall, I would say he's no worse than Bottas for bad luck. I'd infact say Bottas was slightly worse off. Bottas just doesn't seem to have had any good luck this season. I personally think Botats's season was marginally better than Kimi's this year. Given how many say Kimi's season seemed good this year, I don't know why so many are against Bottas. He was not great in the 2nd half, but Hamilton being so good really has effected how Bottas has looked recently.

Thats just dishonest, surely Valteri benefited from some mishaps of others, prime example being that very said Baku where he only got the lead due to lucky SC, yet everyone is harping on about how he lost the win there. I am almost sure there are other examples.

How can Bottas have benefited in Baku when he didn't even finish the race?

obvious one. People say he was unlucky to lose the win, which doesn't take into account that he was already lucky to be in that position in the first place. In other words, people tend to be a bit selective in choosing which bits of (bad) luck to highlight

I can agree with that, but a 2nd place was pretty much guaranteed without any good luck. And with no safety car, Bottas will have been on the best tyres available at the end. Given he was able to match Vettel and do the fastest lap when he was on 40 lap old tyres, I think he will have got pretty close to Vettel by the end. Overtake, I doubt though. But Vettel had a very easy chance to get back in the lead. And he failed. Bottas made no mistakes that race, unlike. Vettel and Hamilton. Both of them had a lock up which did admittedly help Bottas a bit. But given those mistakes, I don't see how that wasn't a deserved win for Bottas. And loosing that or even a 2nd place was really really unlucky.

Johnson wrote:Kimi had a "good season" relative to some of the poor ones he has had recently like 2014,2015 and 2017... if you are judging him against the best, Kimi had a poor season. But the bar for Kimi now is much lower and relative to the level he has been at the last few seasons - he had a good year.

But Vettel making many errors still beat him and was quicker 85% of the time. If Vettel didn't make so many errors, Kimi would have been thrashed.

Trashed is a bit too much, as is your percentage assessment. Vettel had ZERO technical retirements, Kimi 4. No one is denying that Vettel was still quicker of the two, some are eager to exaggerate the gap though. Kimi had a solid season, quali mistakes were still there, as was lack of a first lap aggression, but he wasn't massively slower then Vettel, in fact i would say 17 - 4 quali score doesn't do justice to Kimis pace.

pokerman wrote:

motorfinger wrote:Pointing out that Valteri finished behind Kimi due to team orders is not simplistic i guess? I agree that Valteri gets bashed a bit too much, but the usual strategy of not giving Kimi any credit doesn't help Valteri much IMO.

In this case Kimi is getting credit and Bottas no credit.

So you were trying to flip it around? It couldn't possibly be that truth is somewhere in the middle?

motorfinger wrote:

Johnson wrote:Kimi had a "good season" relative to some of the poor ones he has had recently like 2014,2015 and 2017... if you are judging him against the best, Kimi had a poor season. But the bar for Kimi now is much lower and relative to the level he has been at the last few seasons - he had a good year.

But Vettel making many errors still beat him and was quicker 85% of the time. If Vettel didn't make so many errors, Kimi would have been thrashed.

Trashed is a bit too much, as is your percentage assessment. Vettel had ZERO technical retirements, Kimi 4. No one is denying that Vettel was still quicker of the two, some are eager to exaggerate the gap though. Kimi had a solid season, quali mistakes were still there, as was lack of a first lap aggression, but he wasn't massively slower then Vettel, in fact i would say 17 - 4 quali score doesn't do justice to Kimis pace.

I know Kimi did have 4 retirements, but it his later retirement in Spa was still basically triggered by getting damage because of Hulkenberg. So I wouldn't blame that on a technical fault.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

motorfinger wrote:

Johnson wrote:Kimi had a "good season" relative to some of the poor ones he has had recently like 2014,2015 and 2017... if you are judging him against the best, Kimi had a poor season. But the bar for Kimi now is much lower and relative to the level he has been at the last few seasons - he had a good year.

But Vettel making many errors still beat him and was quicker 85% of the time. If Vettel didn't make so many errors, Kimi would have been thrashed.

Trashed is a bit too much, as is your percentage assessment. Vettel had ZERO technical retirements, Kimi 4. No one is denying that Vettel was still quicker of the two, some are eager to exaggerate the gap though. Kimi had a solid season, quali mistakes were still there, as was lack of a first lap aggression, but he wasn't massively slower then Vettel, in fact i would say 17 - 4 quali score doesn't do justice to Kimis pace.

I know Kimi did have 4 retirements, but it his later retirement in Spa was still basically triggered by getting damage because of Hulkenberg. So I wouldn't blame that on a technical fault.

It was teams failure to fuel the car in quali that put him in the middle of the pack, which led to the accident. And all that on the weekend where he looked quicker then Seb throughout FPs. So potentially a great weekend gone to waste through no fault of Kimis. But, of course nobody remembers that.