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Ferrari had to stretch the first stint in China to be able to 1 stop, its why they left Vettel out posting poor times on clearly shot tyre. Mercedes with superior tyre life, especially on the medium and were able to force there had and make them cover them. Even if Bottas didn't undercut Vettel he was in a good position to attack him at the end with better tyres.

Bottas is likely the de-facto number 2 in his new contract. He got his contract renewed the day after Lewis got his contract renewed. Bottas is also not allowed to challenge Hamilton even when he has fresher tyres.

KingVoid wrote:Bottas is likely the de-facto number 2 in his new contract. He got his contract renewed the day after Lewis got his contract renewed. Bottas is also not allowed to challenge Hamilton even when he has fresher tyres.

Do you not think after what happened in Austria and finding themselves in a 1-2 situation in Germany which I'm sure many did not expect it was just easier to bring the cars home?

Everyone knows Kimi and Bottas are number 2 anyway, it's not like we need confirmation.

Kimi on his fifth straight podium....two stop strategy, slow first pit stop and still managed to overtake Bottas...
Bottas - from hero to zero in two laps...

greatestF1mindever wrote:Kimi on his fifth straight podium....two stop strategy, slow first pit stop and still managed to overtake Bottas...
Bottas - from hero to zero in two laps...

Kimi had a faster car and faster strategy TBF.

Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Rockie wrote:Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though

F1_Ernie wrote:

Rockie wrote:Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though

It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

Rockie wrote:

F1_Ernie wrote:

Rockie wrote:Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though

It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

Bottas is the better driver at the moment. Kimi's peak was higher but that's over a decade ago now.

Rockie wrote:

F1_Ernie wrote:

Rockie wrote:Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though

It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

You are not in charge of teams. You don't know for certain if they won't do this. You can say it is very unlikely if you like, but you can't know what certainly will or won't happen. I myself think it is very unlikely, but I never say that certain things will happen, as we are not the teams!.
Given Bottas has certainly looked better this year than the last, there is still a chance he could repeat this again next year and be better still.

Your first statement saying Kimi is the better driver is pointless at the moment. You can say Bottas was the better driver many many years ago than Bottas currently is. But now, Bottas is clearly a level above him. This race could have gone differently if Bottas had done the identical strategy as Kimi did. Kimi's 2nd stop clearly did help him out when comparing his race to Bottas's. His race was better than Bottas's today, but we can't conclude kimi is the better driver based on today at all.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Rockie wrote:

F1_Ernie wrote:

Rockie wrote:Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though

It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

You are not in charge of teams. You don't know for certain if they won't do this. You can say it is very unlikely if you like, but you can't know what certainly will or won't happen. I myself think it is very unlikely, but I never say that certain things will happen, as we are not the teams!.
Given Bottas has certainly looked better this year than the last, there is still a chance he could repeat this again next year and be better still.

Your first statement saying Kimi is the better driver is pointless at the moment. You can say Bottas was the better driver many many years ago than Bottas currently is. But now, Bottas is clearly a level above him. This race could have gone differently if Bottas had done the identical strategy as Kimi did. Kimi's 2nd stop clearly did help him out when comparing his race to Bottas's. His race was better than Bottas's today, but we can't conclude kimi is the better driver based on today at all.

When I gave my opinion, I didn't realise I had to own a team to give it.

Also at this stage in his career he has not shown anything that makes me look at him and think he's going to be a WDC in future with the talent in the field right now.

Rockie wrote:

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Rockie wrote:

F1_Ernie wrote:

Rockie wrote:Still maintain Kimi is the better driver, today proved that, as Bottas is not going to be on any teams radar after Mercedes.

Bottas was the better driver after Silverstone though

It's not a race by race basis, Raikkonen is at the end of his career, Bottas is going to the prime of his.

No team out there will look at him as a team leader in future.

You are not in charge of teams. You don't know for certain if they won't do this. You can say it is very unlikely if you like, but you can't know what certainly will or won't happen. I myself think it is very unlikely, but I never say that certain things will happen, as we are not the teams!.
Given Bottas has certainly looked better this year than the last, there is still a chance he could repeat this again next year and be better still.

Your first statement saying Kimi is the better driver is pointless at the moment. You can say Bottas was the better driver many many years ago than Bottas currently is. But now, Bottas is clearly a level above him. This race could have gone differently if Bottas had done the identical strategy as Kimi did. Kimi's 2nd stop clearly did help him out when comparing his race to Bottas's. His race was better than Bottas's today, but we can't conclude kimi is the better driver based on today at all.

When I gave my opinion, I didn't realise I had to own a team to give it.

Also at this stage in his career he has not shown anything that makes me look at him and think he's going to be a WDC in future with the talent in the field right now.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion, it is just it sometimes looks like you are stating facts that are 100% certain. An opinion for your sentence regarding teams looking out for Bottas would surely be more like. "I very much doubt that any other team will look at him as a team leader in the future" Rather than making it seem like a fact that has already been confirmed.

I'm not telling you how to write things, I'm just saying that as they look like they do, that is why I commented in the way i did.

Bottas hasn’t shown enough to be a team leader. I could not see Bottas beating Vettel to this title or any title were the cars are this close.

Bottas head to head with Vettel is 7-2 in Vettels favours. Hamiltons with Vettel is 5-5. If the packages are equal, Vettel will beat him over a season quite comfortably.

Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Invade wrote:Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Well...recent performances indicate Kimi is clearly in another class...

greatestF1mindever wrote:

Invade wrote:Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Well...recent performances indicate Kimi is clearly in another class...

Bit of an odd comment. If you are saying recent performences indicate that he IS better, there have been the last 2 weekends and this qualifying. If that is enough to indicate that he's in a different class to Bottas (in terms of being better), then I don't understand. Throughout almost all of the other races, Bottas has looked better than Kimi. several times when Kimi qualified in front, Bottas instantly got past. Both have had very bad luck, but Kimi has benefited due to others misfortune significantly more than Bottas. Otherwise, Bottas would certainly be ahead in the championship.

Despite Bottas making a few mistakes recently and being a bit off the pace here in Italy, I still think that he's overall been a fair bit better than Kimi this year. I think there are around 5 or 6 people on this forum that will disagree based on the comments i see from them, but I think the majority will say Bottas is better at this stage. Too much gets based on recent occurrences.

That said, I am impressed with Kimi today and I think Ferrari should keep him for next year.

TheGiantHogweed wrote:

greatestF1mindever wrote:

Invade wrote:Recent performances continue to convince me that these two drivers are very close indeed.

Well...recent performances indicate Kimi is clearly in another class...

Bit of an odd comment. If you are saying recent performences indicate that he IS better, there have been the last 2 weekends and this qualifying. If that is enough to indicate that he's in a different class to Bottas (in terms of being better), then I don't understand. Throughout almost all of the other races, Bottas has looked better than Kimi. several times when Kimi qualified in front, Bottas instantly got past. Both have had very bad luck, but Kimi has benefited due to others misfortune significantly more than Bottas. Otherwise, Bottas would certainly be ahead in the championship.

Despite Bottas making a few mistakes recently and being a bit off the pace here in Italy, I still think that he's overall been a fair bit better than Kimi this year. I think there are around 5 or 6 people on this forum that will disagree based on the comments i see from them, but I think the majority will say Bottas is better at this stage. Too much gets based on recent occurrences.

That said, I am impressed with Kimi today and I think Ferrari should keep him for next year.

I have to agree with you here. It's extremely short-sighted and unfair to say that Kimi is better than Bottas based solely on the last few races while ignoring that Bottas has easily been better for the last few YEARS. Raikkonen does seem to have his act together of late and I'm glad to see it but let's not lose perspective. Bottas is still beating him in the points despite having worse luck and a slower car on the season. And this is easily Raikkonen's best season since his return to Ferrari.

Would have to agree that Kimi's not shown himself to be in another class to Bottas. I'd say Bottas has been quite unlucky this year, although he hasn't looked comfortable at Monza all weekend so far.

Bottas started the day three points behind Raikkonen. VB-171 to KR-174. Valtteri ended up the day three points ahead of Kimi. VB-189 to KR-186.

Seems to me that Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri to beat Kimi for third in the drivers championship.

This battle has not received much of any attention in the racing press but it's a lot closer than the Lewis-Sebastian battle.

Mort Canard wrote:Bottas started the day three points behind Raikkonen. VB-171 to KR-174. Valtteri ended up the day three points ahead of Kimi. VB-189 to KR-186.

Seems to me that Mercedes needs to start supporting Valtteri to beat Kimi for third in the drivers championship.

This battle has not received much of any attention in the racing press but it's a lot closer than the Lewis-Sebastian battle.

3rd is a nice to have, but nowhere near as important at 1st. Mercedes did the right thing yesterday from a team perspective. We've seen before how DNFs can wreak havoc on a title challenge, so it makes perfect sense for them to focus on the WDC until it's mathematically impossible to lose it. Only then can they realistically focus on Bottas

Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

Invade wrote:Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

Was Raikkonen even in the race yesterday?

froze wrote:

Invade wrote:Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

I don't agree with that at all. I think he would have lost regardless of what Bottas did. Hamilton hung on to the back of him with ease and had much fresher tires due to stopping much later. I think the period where Raikkonen ran behind Bottas did help Lewis but I doubt he needed it there.

sandman1347 wrote:

froze wrote:

Invade wrote:Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

I don't agree with that at all. I think he would have lost regardless of what Bottas did. Hamilton hung on to the back of him with ease and had much fresher tires due to stopping much later. I think the period where Raikkonen ran behind Bottas did help Lewis but I doubt he needed it there.

Agreed! If Kimi had won Monza, it would have been by the skin of his teeth. His tires were more used up and Lewis would have had every chance of getting by even without Valtteri backing him up to Lewis.

Mort Canard wrote:

sandman1347 wrote:

froze wrote:

Invade wrote:Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I would say Monza. Without Mercedes team game Kimi would have won that one easily.

I don't agree with that at all. I think he would have lost regardless of what Bottas did. Hamilton hung on to the back of him with ease and had much fresher tires due to stopping much later. I think the period where Raikkonen ran behind Bottas did help Lewis but I doubt he needed it there.

Agreed! If Kimi had won Monza, it would have been by the skin of his teeth. His tires were more used up and Lewis would have had every chance of getting by even without Valtteri backing him up to Lewis.

Kimi should have won in Monza, Ferrari made the mistakes initially asking Kimi to drive too hard and too long on a heavier fuel load, being stuck behind Bottas just damaged the tyres even more. Vettel managed 27 laps (admittedly some laps under SC) on a heavier fuel load, fighting other cars and driving a damaged car.

Lojik wrote:Was Raikkonen even in the race yesterday?

Tbf, he ran the race at a very similar pace to the leaders put had a worse strategy.

He was 4.5 seconds behind Vettel when Vettel pitted. They left Kimi out (probably hoping for a SC that would bring him the win) and he then emerged from his stop 10 seconds behind Vettel. Over the next 20 laps he closed that to 5.8 seconds and before Kimi slowed down for the last 2-3 laps was only 6.5 seconds behind Vettel.

This is what I would call a good level of performance from Kimi. They guy is 38, he was about 0.1 off Vettels race pace.

Invade wrote:Well Bottas came back strong in Sochi, outperforming his team-mate over the weekend and showing he had enough performance to likely win the race. I can't remember when Kimi last showed true race-winning pace (anyone?).

I thought that he should have won Monaco 2017. He looked disappointed in a similar way there to Bottas yesterday. Ferrari looked like they did something with the strategy to let Vettel win. I don't think he was better than Kimi there.

Bottas has looked capable of winning a race on three occasions this season but has been unlucky twice and moved over once. Kimi has looked liked he could win once but was outraced.

That's the difference between them IMO. Kimi has had a race winning car for the last three seasons and very rarely looked like pulling off a win.

After Suzuka Valtteri is 11 pts up on Kimi and 57 points adrift from Sebastian. .

If Lewis cools his heels after clinching the championship Valtteri could have a run at Sebastian. If Sebastian cooperates and continues to shoot himself in the foot this may be within reach. Lewis also seems to think he owes Valtteri a win after Sochi. Valtteri could close the gap with help from Lewis and Toto.

Sebastian has dropped 50 points from Lewis in the last four races since Belgium. One more bad weekend and Vettel is vulnerable to Bottas.

I kind of hope that Mercedes consider a 1-2 placing in the WDC worth pursuing.

Mort Canard wrote:After Suzuka Valtteri is 11 pts up on Kimi and 57 points adrift from Sebastian. .

If Lewis cools his heels after clinching the championship Valtteri could have a run at Sebastian. If Sebastian cooperates and continues to shoot himself in the foot this may be within reach. Lewis also seems to think he owes Valtteri a win after Sochi. Valtteri could close the gap with help from Lewis and Toto.

Sebastian has dropped 50 points from Lewis in the last four races since Belgium. One more bad weekend and Vettel is vulnerable to Bottas.

I kind of hope that Mercedes consider a 1-2 placing in the WDC worth pursuing.

Since the British GP Lewis has won 6 of 7 races and has outscored Vettel by 75 points. It has been an epic collapse. I don't htink Valteri is going to catch him though. Vettel is bound to get it together at some point. One more Vettel win and Valteri can forget about it.

sandman1347 wrote:

Mort Canard wrote:After Suzuka Valtteri is 11 pts up on Kimi and 57 points adrift from Sebastian. .

If Lewis cools his heels after clinching the championship Valtteri could have a run at Sebastian. If Sebastian cooperates and continues to shoot himself in the foot this may be within reach. Lewis also seems to think he owes Valtteri a win after Sochi. Valtteri could close the gap with help from Lewis and Toto.

Sebastian has dropped 50 points from Lewis in the last four races since Belgium. One more bad weekend and Vettel is vulnerable to Bottas.

I kind of hope that Mercedes consider a 1-2 placing in the WDC worth pursuing.

Since the British GP Lewis has won 6 of 7 races and has outscored Vettel by 75 points. It has been an epic collapse. I don't htink Valteri is going to catch him though. Vettel is bound to get it together at some point. One more Vettel win and Valteri can forget about it.

I did say that Valtteri would need some help from Lewis, Toto and also need a continued collapse from Sebastian. Not likely but not out of the range of possibilities.

With his win in Austin Kimi has retaken third place in the WDC points.

Kimi - 221 & Valtteri - 217

Will be interesting to see how these two finish out the season.

Mort Canard wrote:I did say that Valtteri would need some help from Lewis, Toto and also need a continued collapse from Sebastian. Not likely but not out of the range of possibilities.

He's getting the last one, but it still wasn't enough. Vettel beat him despite spinning in Austin - not a good look for Bottas...

I do think Bottas is starting to show that he often underperforms more when he's not within a chance of a win. And I also think being as low as he is in the championship hurts him a bit. I still think the boost he will have got by being in the lead of the drivers championship in Azerbaijan will have boosted his confidence a huge amount. I just think he needs to perform that well now. I still think he's having a better 2nd half than last year. He looked strong in Russia at least. And when comparing Bottas and Kimi, I just don't think Bottas has benifited from others misfortune much at all this year. Where as Kimi has got many of his points back that he lost due to bad luck this way. Such as in Baku. and a few other races. Vettel and others messing up allowing him to get more points. Kimi and Bottas certainly have been close this year, but Bottas was far better in the first half and overall, I would say Kimi has only been slightly better in this half of the season so far.

Hard to tell what it does to Bottas to be compared to Raikkonen who doesn't need to move over all the time.
Looks like Merc will end the season very conservative and that will play in Kimis favor to.

IMO Bottas should at this point in his career and material be in a better position than he is but the #2 and Merc politics doesn't give him any favors.

Between the end of this year and the first half of next season, I would say that Valtteri has about 12 races to prove that he deserves the second seat at Mercedes.

Toto Wolff says Esteban Ocon's possible hiatus will only be for a year, as Ocon will be in a “good” car the following season.

“We are prepared for ‘Plan B’ with Esteban, one thing I can guarantee for you is he’s going to be in a good car in 2020 because there are many teams out there that have an interest in Esteban.

“We will try to facilitate [things] where we can but there’s nothing I could say ‘this is going to help him into the car’.”

It sounds to me that he wants Esteban in the #2 Mercedes in 2020 to prepare for the rules changes in 2021.

Mort Canard wrote:With his win in Austin Kimi has retaken third place in the WDC points.

Kimi - 221 & Valtteri - 217

Will be interesting to see how these two finish out the season.

I bet you couldn't help yourself

Merc has truly destroyed Bottas having him move over for Hamilton every time. Now they plan to spit him out and do the same to Ocon?

greatestF1mindever wrote:Merc has truly destroyed Bottas having him move over for Hamilton every time. Now they plan to spit him out and do the same to Ocon?

Would you be wanting to put your eggs in the Bottas basket given his performance last time out?