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Bottas vs Raikkonen
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Author:  Rockie [ Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Mort Canard wrote:

You are clearly more engaged in the "argument" than in a reasoned discussion. Have it your way.


I am yet to see what exactly your "reasoned discussion" is?

Everyone agrees Vettel made mistakes this year, but in race pace Kimi was nowhere near Vettel is my argument.

You cant then now say Seb was lucky because of Kimi's reliability, it's like saying Kimi was lucky that Seb made mistakes as it would have been worse for him than Bottas.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Wed Dec 05, 2018 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:

You are clearly more engaged in the "argument" than in a reasoned discussion. Have it your way.


I am yet to see what exactly your "reasoned discussion" is?

Everyone agrees Vettel made mistakes this year, but in race pace Kimi was nowhere near Vettel is my argument.

You cant then now say Seb was lucky because of Kimi's reliability, it's like saying Kimi was lucky that Seb made mistakes as it would have been worse for him than Bottas.


That Vettel made mistakes and Kimi didn't isn't luck.

Author:  dompclarke [ Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
You cant then now say Seb was lucky because of Kimi's reliability, it's like saying Kimi was lucky that Seb made mistakes as it would have been worse for him than Bottas.

If you're discussing their positions in the championship based on driver performance of course you can site better reliability as lucky and not claim a driver was lucky they didn't make mistakes. Mistakes show that driver didn't perform as well as they should/could have...

Author:  greatestF1mindever [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Toby. wrote:
Put them both in the same car this year. Who would come out on top? And by how much?

Well, Bottas had much better machinery than Raikkonnen and Kimi ended ahead of Bottas in the Championship...so that answers this question....Having lost his main sponsor is sad and Merc have done nothing to stick by their man that helped Hamilton win the Championship. I guess, without Bottas, Hamilton would not have won the 2019 championship....his work at Monza comes to mind and then the "move over" incident.

Author:  Exediron [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

greatestF1mindever wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Put them both in the same car this year. Who would come out on top? And by how much?

Well, Bottas had much better machinery than Raikkonnen and Kimi ended ahead of Bottas in the Championship...so that answers this question....Having lost his main sponsor is sad and Merc have done nothing to stick by their man that helped Hamilton win the Championship. I guess, without Bottas, Hamilton would not have won the 2019 championship....his work at Monza comes to mind and then the "move over" incident.

Ignoring the claim that Bottas had a much better car than Raikkonen, Hamilton won the title by a far larger margin than the number of points you can say Bottas got for him by playing wingman.

Author:  Zoue [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

greatestF1mindever wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Put them both in the same car this year. Who would come out on top? And by how much?

Well, Bottas had much better machinery than Raikkonnen and Kimi ended ahead of Bottas in the Championship...so that answers this question....Having lost his main sponsor is sad and Merc have done nothing to stick by their man that helped Hamilton win the Championship. I guess, without Bottas, Hamilton would not have won the 2019 championship....his work at Monza comes to mind and then the "move over" incident.

I think "much better" is questionable. I think their machinery was pretty comparable. Let's not forget Bottas was comfortably beating Kimi after Japan but then a string of pretty average results after that put him behind.

And yes he did help Hamilton, and that cost him, but the title wasn't that close that it made a difference to Hamilton's position in the end. Not enough to explain Bottas' drop in form, either.

One thing I'd agree on is that his sponsor dropping him is pretty damning. I've no doubt they would be privy to more information than the rest of us so for them to lose faith in him like that says something

Author:  pokerman [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

greatestF1mindever wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Put them both in the same car this year. Who would come out on top? And by how much?

Well, Bottas had much better machinery than Raikkonnen and Kimi ended ahead of Bottas in the Championship...so that answers this question....Having lost his main sponsor is sad and Merc have done nothing to stick by their man that helped Hamilton win the Championship. I guess, without Bottas, Hamilton would not have won the 2019 championship....his work at Monza comes to mind and then the "move over" incident.

Wrong and wrong.

Author:  pokerman [ Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Zoue wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
Toby. wrote:
Put them both in the same car this year. Who would come out on top? And by how much?

Well, Bottas had much better machinery than Raikkonnen and Kimi ended ahead of Bottas in the Championship...so that answers this question....Having lost his main sponsor is sad and Merc have done nothing to stick by their man that helped Hamilton win the Championship. I guess, without Bottas, Hamilton would not have won the 2019 championship....his work at Monza comes to mind and then the "move over" incident.

I think "much better" is questionable. I think their machinery was pretty comparable. Let's not forget Bottas was comfortably beating Kimi after Japan but then a string of pretty average results after that put him behind.

And yes he did help Hamilton, and that cost him, but the title wasn't that close that it made a difference to Hamilton's position in the end. Not enough to explain Bottas' drop in form, either.

One thing I'd agree on is that his sponsor dropping him is pretty damning. I've no doubt they would be privy to more information than the rest of us so for them to lose faith in him like that says something

What every driver wants is a chance in the best car but that's not always a blessing.

Author:  BMWSauber84 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 10:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

The Mercedes excuse that Bottas lost his motivation once his personal championship battle was over doesn't really ring true. If the pressure to retain a top seat isn't motivation enough then I don't know what is.

Author:  pokerman [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

BMWSauber84 wrote:
The Mercedes excuse that Bottas lost his motivation once his personal championship battle was over doesn't really ring true. If the pressure to retain a top seat isn't motivation enough then I don't know what is.

I think a driver can lose motivation once his prime objective is too just help his teammate?

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The Mercedes excuse that Bottas lost his motivation once his personal championship battle was over doesn't really ring true. If the pressure to retain a top seat isn't motivation enough then I don't know what is.

I think a driver can lose motivation once his prime objective is too just help his teammate?


If that is true of Bottas then Mercedes really do need to get in a knew number 2 driver and Bottas' days are numbered. If he's not fast enough to match Hamilton but falls off a cliff when needed to support him then from Mercedes perspective what is the point of him?

Author:  pokerman [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The Mercedes excuse that Bottas lost his motivation once his personal championship battle was over doesn't really ring true. If the pressure to retain a top seat isn't motivation enough then I don't know what is.

I think a driver can lose motivation once his prime objective is too just help his teammate?


If that is true of Bottas then Mercedes really do need to get in a knew number 2 driver and Bottas' days are numbered. If he's not fast enough to match Hamilton but falls off a cliff when needed to support him then from Mercedes perspective what is the point of him?

Well the win was taken off him in Russia, without that maybe his season doesn't look so bad after all Kimi's season was transformed by some because he won in Austin.

I don't believe it's the goal of any driver with the ambition of being a WDC is just to be a wingman for another driver, if Bottas is thrown into that role again maybe he himself might prefer pastures new?

As for what Bottas achieved or didn't achieve he more or less equaled what Kimi did and helped to secure Mercedes the WCC, that alone would be good enough if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The Mercedes excuse that Bottas lost his motivation once his personal championship battle was over doesn't really ring true. If the pressure to retain a top seat isn't motivation enough then I don't know what is.

I think a driver can lose motivation once his prime objective is too just help his teammate?


If that is true of Bottas then Mercedes really do need to get in a knew number 2 driver and Bottas' days are numbered. If he's not fast enough to match Hamilton but falls off a cliff when needed to support him then from Mercedes perspective what is the point of him?

Well the win was taken off him in Russia, without that maybe his season doesn't look so bad after all Kimi's season was transformed by some because he won in Austin.

I don't believe it's the goal of any driver with the ambition of being a WDC is just to be a wingman for another driver, if Bottas is thrown into that role again maybe he himself might prefer pastures new?

As for what Bottas achieved or didn't achieve he more or less equaled what Kimi did and helped to secure Mercedes the WCC, that alone would be good enough if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.


Yes but you could say that for every driver. They are all good enough until a better one is available.

Author:  pokerman [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
The Mercedes excuse that Bottas lost his motivation once his personal championship battle was over doesn't really ring true. If the pressure to retain a top seat isn't motivation enough then I don't know what is.

I think a driver can lose motivation once his prime objective is too just help his teammate?


If that is true of Bottas then Mercedes really do need to get in a knew number 2 driver and Bottas' days are numbered. If he's not fast enough to match Hamilton but falls off a cliff when needed to support him then from Mercedes perspective what is the point of him?

Well the win was taken off him in Russia, without that maybe his season doesn't look so bad after all Kimi's season was transformed by some because he won in Austin.

I don't believe it's the goal of any driver with the ambition of being a WDC is just to be a wingman for another driver, if Bottas is thrown into that role again maybe he himself might prefer pastures new?

As for what Bottas achieved or didn't achieve he more or less equaled what Kimi did and helped to secure Mercedes the WCC, that alone would be good enough if not for Ocon waiting in the wings.


Yes but you could say that for every driver. They are all good enough until a better one is available.

You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Author:  pokerman [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.


I think it's more that Bottas is pretty much topped out at the level he is now and has shown he is very unlikely to be a world champion for Mercedes. Ocon still has plenty of upside and just might be good enough.

And I really don't think Racing Point would want a driver as good as Hamilton up against Stroll. Lets not kid ourselves of the purpose of that team.

Author:  Mort Canard [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.


I think it's more that Bottas is pretty much topped out at the level he is now and has shown he is very unlikely to be a world champion for Mercedes. Ocon still has plenty of upside and just might be good enough.

And I really don't think Racing Point would want a driver as good as Hamilton up against Stroll. Lets not kid ourselves of the purpose of that team.


Oh please! For the money and prestige that comes with the WDC and WCC titles, Lawrence Stroll would staff the other car with another driver that would make Lance look like a trained monkey. IN A HEARTBEAT!!! :nod:

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Mort Canard wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.


I think it's more that Bottas is pretty much topped out at the level he is now and has shown he is very unlikely to be a world champion for Mercedes. Ocon still has plenty of upside and just might be good enough.

And I really don't think Racing Point would want a driver as good as Hamilton up against Stroll. Lets not kid ourselves of the purpose of that team.


Oh please! For the money and prestige that comes with the WDC and WCC titles, Lawrence Stroll would staff the other car with another driver that would make Lance look like a trained monkey. IN A HEARTBEAT!!! :nod:


A Hamilton level driver wouldn't win a WDC in a Racing Point.

Author:  pokerman [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.


I think it's more that Bottas is pretty much topped out at the level he is now and has shown he is very unlikely to be a world champion for Mercedes. Ocon still has plenty of upside and just might be good enough.

And I really don't think Racing Point would want a driver as good as Hamilton up against Stroll. Lets not kid ourselves of the purpose of that team.

I would agree with Ocon having more upside and that's why I believe Mercedes have set Bottas a task I think they know he's unlikely to make, match Lewis Hamilton.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You sure about that, I'm thinking of the likes of Irvine, Barrichello, Webber, Massa and Kimi.

Also is Ocon really better than Bottas, given Mercedes' commitment to Ocon I would venture they would replace Bottas even if they don't know the answer themselves?


I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.


I think it's more that Bottas is pretty much topped out at the level he is now and has shown he is very unlikely to be a world champion for Mercedes. Ocon still has plenty of upside and just might be good enough.

And I really don't think Racing Point would want a driver as good as Hamilton up against Stroll. Lets not kid ourselves of the purpose of that team.

I would agree with Ocon having more upside and that's why I believe Mercedes have set Bottas a task I think they know he's unlikely to make, match Lewis Hamilton.


An interesting question is where would Bottas end up in 2020? He could do a very good job for a midfield outfit and is a proven race winner.

Author:  pokerman [ Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think the best option for what the team wants is different to the best driver available although I would say some of your selection were the best drivers available at the time. If Bottas is not doing what Mercedes require then it is up to them to decide if Ocon would do better. No team ever really knows how the new driver is going to fair.

Did those drivers warrant contract extensions though?

Apparently what Mercedes require is for Bottas to drive at the same level as Hamilton, is that reasonable, do they expect Ocon to drive at the same level as Hamilton, would Racing Point have let go a Hamilton level driver even if he had no backing, would Mercedes have been looking to park such a driver at Renault for 1 or 2 years?

Bottas has performed no worse than the drivers I've mentioned, I think the replacement of Bottas would be more of a case of Mercedes justifying their investment in Ocon.


I think it's more that Bottas is pretty much topped out at the level he is now and has shown he is very unlikely to be a world champion for Mercedes. Ocon still has plenty of upside and just might be good enough.

And I really don't think Racing Point would want a driver as good as Hamilton up against Stroll. Lets not kid ourselves of the purpose of that team.

I would agree with Ocon having more upside and that's why I believe Mercedes have set Bottas a task I think they know he's unlikely to make, match Lewis Hamilton.


An interesting question is where would Bottas end up in 2020? He could do a very good job for a midfield outfit and is a proven race winner.

He's lost his main sponsor which may rule him out from going back to Williams if things don't go well for Kubica?

It has to be a team that's not looking for money, Renault would be the best option if the Hulk has a poor season, one seat that might be open is at Haas, how long are they going to plod on with their misfiring duo?

They are the only options I see for him.

Author:  Exediron [ Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

pokerman wrote:
It has to be a team that's not looking for money, Renault would be the best option if the Hulk has a poor season, one seat that might be open is at Haas, how long are they going to plod on with their misfiring duo?

They are the only options I see for him.

Haas would have to seem like the best bet to me. He's a safe upgrade on their current drivers, and they've made it clear that they're not looking for pay drivers in their lineup. I suspect Bottas would be a minor upgrade at best on Hulk.

Author:  pokerman [ Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It has to be a team that's not looking for money, Renault would be the best option if the Hulk has a poor season, one seat that might be open is at Haas, how long are they going to plod on with their misfiring duo?

They are the only options I see for him.

Haas would have to seem like the best bet to me. He's a safe upgrade on their current drivers, and they've made it clear that they're not looking for pay drivers in their lineup. I suspect Bottas would be a minor upgrade at best on Hulk.

Yes I think Haas would be the most likely option.

Author:  Mort Canard [ Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen

mikeyg123 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:

Oh please! For the money and prestige that comes with the WDC and WCC titles, Lawrence Stroll would staff the other car with another driver that would make Lance look like a trained monkey. IN A HEARTBEAT!!! :nod:


A Hamilton level driver wouldn't win a WDC in a Racing Point.


This is true but I don't think Lawrence with hold the team hostage to the level that Lance can provide in terms of driving talent. If he can land a driver better than Checo he will be all over that in a heartbeat.

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