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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:13 pm 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
Merc has truly destroyed Bottas having him move over for Hamilton every time. Now they plan to spit him out and do the same to Ocon?


How exactly?

He was quite a way off of Hamilton in the 2-3 races before Russia and the 2 races since... Russia just happens to be his best track and one of Hamiltons weakest so they were pretty equal there.

In the two races before Russia, Hamilton out qualified Bottas by 0.700 and 0.360. In the two races post Russia its been 0.310 and 0.380. That is the pattern of the last 10 races, Hamilton about 0.250-0.350 ahead.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:46 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Before the race in Brazil:
Kimi Raikkonen - 236
Valtteri Bottas - 227 -9pts.

Valtteri qualified third and Kimi is fourth on the grid. This ain't over by any means.


.....and after Brazil, Kimi helped his cause.

Kimi Raikkonen - 251
Valtteri Bottas - 237 -14pts.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:38 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem. Today he looked as quick as Hamilton then locked up and totally lost it from then on. Overall this season I would rate him above Kimi. Kimi has been better in the 2nd half, but not my that much IMO. While I think Bottas was much better in the first half. I very much doubt Gasly will be better than Bottas next year. And even though Leclerc has looked really impressive, Sauber have improved so much that I think that has made many of his performances look better than they are. Initially, I think Bottas is going to be stronger than him. Also having significantly more experience in the team and F1 will give him even more of an advantage. To begin with, I think it is only Vettel, Verstappen and Hamilton who will be better than Bottas. That is if Verstappen keeps calm.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:07 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem. Today he looked as quick as Hamilton then locked up and totally lost it from then on. Overall this season I would rate him above Kimi. Kimi has been better in the 2nd half, but not my that much IMO. While I think Bottas was much better in the first half. I very much doubt Gasly will be better than Bottas next year. And even though Leclerc has looked really impressive, Sauber have improved so much that I think that has made many of his performances look better than they are. Initially, I think Bottas is going to be stronger than him. Also having significantly more experience in the team and F1 will give him even more of an advantage. To begin with, I think it is only Vettel, Verstappen and Hamilton who will be better than Bottas. That is if Verstappen keeps calm.

Can't agree with that. Ricciardo is clearly a cut above Bottas IMO as are a couple of others. Leclerc I think will prove to be better and maybe either Ocon or Gasly. I'd also rate Perez as being better on Sundays (though I think Bottas is better on Saturdays).

Honestly I think qualifying pace is by far Valteri's strongest attribute. He's able to do very fast single laps most of the time (though he did get a little lost in the middle of the season). Racing as Hamilton's teammate certainly doesn't do him any favors in terms of looking slow but he's never up to Lewis's level on Sundays. Even in his strongest race of the year in Russia, he was holding Hamilton and Vettel up.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:12 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem. Today he looked as quick as Hamilton then locked up and totally lost it from then on. Overall this season I would rate him above Kimi. Kimi has been better in the 2nd half, but not my that much IMO. While I think Bottas was much better in the first half. I very much doubt Gasly will be better than Bottas next year. And even though Leclerc has looked really impressive, Sauber have improved so much that I think that has made many of his performances look better than they are. Initially, I think Bottas is going to be stronger than him. Also having significantly more experience in the team and F1 will give him even more of an advantage. To begin with, I think it is only Vettel, Verstappen and Hamilton who will be better than Bottas. That is if Verstappen keeps calm.

Can't agree with that. Ricciardo is clearly a cut above Bottas IMO as are a couple of others. Leclerc I think will prove to be better and maybe either Ocon or Gasly. I'd also rate Perez as being better on Sundays (though I think Bottas is better on Saturdays).

Honestly I think qualifying pace is by far Valteri's strongest attribute. He's able to do very fast single laps most of the time (though he did get a little lost in the middle of the season). Racing as Hamilton's teammate certainly doesn't do him any favors in terms of looking slow but he's never up to Lewis's level on Sundays. Even in his strongest race of the year in Russia, he was holding Hamilton and Vettel up.

I'm talking about the top 3 teams drivers next year. Given i was talking about the gasly and Leclerc and not mentioning Ricciardo, I thought people would understand what i meant. I also was replying to a post that was specifically talking about the top 6 drivers (as in the ones in the big 3 teams) That is why Ricciardo was out of it. I do think he is better than Bottas. It is just Kimi I would place behind him this year. But not by much.

Also don't think Russia was Bottas's strongest race. I'd say it was China. And in a few other races, I can't say that Bottas wasn't at Hamilton's level. He did look better in several.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:19 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem. Today he looked as quick as Hamilton then locked up and totally lost it from then on. Overall this season I would rate him above Kimi. Kimi has been better in the 2nd half, but not my that much IMO. While I think Bottas was much better in the first half. I very much doubt Gasly will be better than Bottas next year. And even though Leclerc has looked really impressive, Sauber have improved so much that I think that has made many of his performances look better than they are. Initially, I think Bottas is going to be stronger than him. Also having significantly more experience in the team and F1 will give him even more of an advantage. To begin with, I think it is only Vettel, Verstappen and Hamilton who will be better than Bottas. That is if Verstappen keeps calm.

Can't agree with that. Ricciardo is clearly a cut above Bottas IMO as are a couple of others. Leclerc I think will prove to be better and maybe either Ocon or Gasly. I'd also rate Perez as being better on Sundays (though I think Bottas is better on Saturdays).

Honestly I think qualifying pace is by far Valteri's strongest attribute. He's able to do very fast single laps most of the time (though he did get a little lost in the middle of the season). Racing as Hamilton's teammate certainly doesn't do him any favors in terms of looking slow but he's never up to Lewis's level on Sundays. Even in his strongest race of the year in Russia, he was holding Hamilton and Vettel up.

I'm talking about the top 3 teams drivers next year. Given i was talking about the gasly and Leclerc and not mentioning Ricciardo, I thought people would understand what i meant. I also was replying to a post that was specifically talking about the top 6 drivers (as in the ones in the big 3 teams) That is why Ricciardo was out of it. I do think he is better than Bottas. It is just Kimi I would place behind him this year. But not by much.

My misunderstanding then. Yeah overall I think Bottas has been better than Kimi if you look at 2017-2018 but I think there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Kimi has been better in 2018 alone. Kimi has had much worse reliability than Bottas and yet still beat him in the points. Both have had bad luck and both have faced team orders. I think Kimi pulling off a win might give him the edge overall.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:25 pm 
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I have a spreadsheet for this stuff and Kimi came out ahead of Bottas in 2018.

The order for me just according to my numbers is:

Hamilton >> Verstappen > Ricciardo > Vettel > Raikkonen > Bottas

After Monaco, Verstappen is close to Hamilton, with Hamilton having a couple of mediocre race weekends by his standards in Canada and Austria, but from Silverstone onwards Hamilton opens up a clear lead on Verstappen, but Verstappen's score is the equal of Hamilton's season average score over that shorter period, which puts into context how well he has driven for much of the season. Hopefully that made some sort of sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem. Today he looked as quick as Hamilton then locked up and totally lost it from then on. Overall this season I would rate him above Kimi. Kimi has been better in the 2nd half, but not my that much IMO. While I think Bottas was much better in the first half. I very much doubt Gasly will be better than Bottas next year. And even though Leclerc has looked really impressive, Sauber have improved so much that I think that has made many of his performances look better than they are. Initially, I think Bottas is going to be stronger than him. Also having significantly more experience in the team and F1 will give him even more of an advantage. To begin with, I think it is only Vettel, Verstappen and Hamilton who will be better than Bottas. That is if Verstappen keeps calm.

Can't agree with that. Ricciardo is clearly a cut above Bottas IMO as are a couple of others. Leclerc I think will prove to be better and maybe either Ocon or Gasly. I'd also rate Perez as being better on Sundays (though I think Bottas is better on Saturdays).

Honestly I think qualifying pace is by far Valteri's strongest attribute. He's able to do very fast single laps most of the time (though he did get a little lost in the middle of the season). Racing as Hamilton's teammate certainly doesn't do him any favors in terms of looking slow but he's never up to Lewis's level on Sundays. Even in his strongest race of the year in Russia, he was holding Hamilton and Vettel up.

I'm talking about the top 3 teams drivers next year. Given i was talking about the gasly and Leclerc and not mentioning Ricciardo, I thought people would understand what i meant. I also was replying to a post that was specifically talking about the top 6 drivers (as in the ones in the big 3 teams) That is why Ricciardo was out of it. I do think he is better than Bottas. It is just Kimi I would place behind him this year. But not by much.

My misunderstanding then. Yeah overall I think Bottas has been better than Kimi if you look at 2017-2018 but I think there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Kimi has been better in 2018 alone. Kimi has had much worse reliability than Bottas and yet still beat him in the points. Both have had bad luck and both have faced team orders. I think Kimi pulling off a win might give him the edge overall.

I don't have time to go over it all right now, But a huge amount of Kimi's bad luck at the start of the season did sort of get overturned. He benefited from others misfortune in a lot of races. Only time I saw that happening with Bottas was gaining 1 place in Baku which happened to be worth nothing. Kimi looked to be nowhere and gained loads of positions due to others messing up. He gained not due to merit in quite a few other races too IMO. I just can't think of any time this year Bottas has been lucky (other than his seat obviously).

The other thing is that i don't think any of Kimi's retirements lost him a win. Team orders maybe lost him 1. But bad luck and team orders cost Bottas 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2018 5:44 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Just a bit clueless right now on Bottas. He seems to be a weak link. Not sure how well Gasly and Leclerc will perform yet but I'm making the assumption he'll be the weakest link of the drivers in the top 6 cars next year. He was 5th or 6th best this year (in the races I'd say 6th) and it's going to bite Mercedes at some point. Good teamwork blah blah won't cover his lack of race pace in the end. He needs to reboot and find a way to come back firing in 2019...


He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem. Today he looked as quick as Hamilton then locked up and totally lost it from then on. Overall this season I would rate him above Kimi. Kimi has been better in the 2nd half, but not my that much IMO. While I think Bottas was much better in the first half. I very much doubt Gasly will be better than Bottas next year. And even though Leclerc has looked really impressive, Sauber have improved so much that I think that has made many of his performances look better than they are. Initially, I think Bottas is going to be stronger than him. Also having significantly more experience in the team and F1 will give him even more of an advantage. To begin with, I think it is only Vettel, Verstappen and Hamilton who will be better than Bottas. That is if Verstappen keeps calm.


But tire management is where it's at really. If he doesn't have a handle of that he is always going to be toast. Bottas is pretty decent on Saturdays to be honest, but what you are doing on Sundays is what matters. Today, surrounded by the likes of Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, Verstappen, he looked bad. And it's not the first time he looks out of his depth when racing against those guys. But then again I don't think Merc needs to replace him. There is no need to have two aces in one team. I think Ferrari are going to find that out very soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 1:38 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:

He hasn't lacked pace exactly in the last 2 races. His tyre management is the problem.


Aren't tyre management and race pace one and the same though? For example Bottas should theoretically be faster than the other leading drivers if he is taking more life and grip out of the tyres.

So lets say that the other 5 drivers allow their tyres to last 30 laps, and Bottas allows his tyres to last 20 laps, then if Bottas didn't actually lack any race pace compared to the other 5 drivers, then for those 20 laps that his tyres were still in shape, then he would be lapping faster.

Bottas' problem is that despite utilising more of the tyres' grip sooner, he still isn't faster than the others during that phase, showing that he is indeed lacking race pace, in addition to the extra pit stops he also needs to make as a result of not getting the tyres to last as long either.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 7:18 am 
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Well last race after he locked up, any driver would be slow after doing that. It was clearly his fault for not managing the tyres earlier though. But I still think race pace is different to this. But it is still as big an issue. He didn't seem to have this at the start of the season though so he may get over it next year.

It is a shame that he's been like this as I always thought that when he was at Williams, he was good at managing tyres and pulling off good results. I'm actually thinking that he may have got as many podiums in his second season (2014) as this year. But then I think the top 3 teams this year wee far closer together this year than then. 2014 was very mixed as to weather Williams or Red Bull looked best after Mercedes.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2018 2:35 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well last race after he locked up, any driver would be slow after doing that. It was clearly his fault for not managing the tyres earlier though. But I still think race pace is different to this. But it is still as big an issue. He didn't seem to have this at the start of the season though so he may get over it next year.

It is a shame that he's been like this as I always thought that when he was at Williams, he was good at managing tyres and pulling off good results. I'm actually thinking that he may have got as many podiums in his second season (2014) as this year. But then I think the top 3 teams this year wee far closer together this year than then. 2014 was very mixed as to weather Williams or Red Bull looked best after Mercedes.

The weekend is a compromise between qualifying pace and race pace, is Bottas' concentrating too much on qualifying?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well last race after he locked up, any driver would be slow after doing that. It was clearly his fault for not managing the tyres earlier though. But I still think race pace is different to this. But it is still as big an issue. He didn't seem to have this at the start of the season though so he may get over it next year.

It is a shame that he's been like this as I always thought that when he was at Williams, he was good at managing tyres and pulling off good results. I'm actually thinking that he may have got as many podiums in his second season (2014) as this year. But then I think the top 3 teams this year wee far closer together this year than then. 2014 was very mixed as to weather Williams or Red Bull looked best after Mercedes.

The weekend is a compromise between qualifying pace and race pace, is Bottas' concentrating too much on qualifying?

Most drivers seem to be of the opinion that there's no such thing as a qualifying setup in the modern day. I think Bottas is simply better over one lap than he can sustain over a race. He even said so himself in a recent interview, where he said the difference between him and Hamilton is that Hamilton can precisely nail every apex every lap over a race. Bottas can put together a peak performance that's close, but he can't do it lap after lap.

That's why I've always felt that race pace, not qualifying pace, separates the good from the truly great. Bottas and Raikkonen may be within a tenth or two on Saturday, but they can't sustain it for 190 miles like their teammates can.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:47 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well last race after he locked up, any driver would be slow after doing that. It was clearly his fault for not managing the tyres earlier though. But I still think race pace is different to this. But it is still as big an issue. He didn't seem to have this at the start of the season though so he may get over it next year.

It is a shame that he's been like this as I always thought that when he was at Williams, he was good at managing tyres and pulling off good results. I'm actually thinking that he may have got as many podiums in his second season (2014) as this year. But then I think the top 3 teams this year wee far closer together this year than then. 2014 was very mixed as to weather Williams or Red Bull looked best after Mercedes.

The weekend is a compromise between qualifying pace and race pace, is Bottas' concentrating too much on qualifying?

Most drivers seem to be of the opinion that there's no such thing as a qualifying setup in the modern day. I think Bottas is simply better over one lap than he can sustain over a race. He even said so himself in a recent interview, where he said the difference between him and Hamilton is that Hamilton can precisely nail every apex every lap over a race. Bottas can put together a peak performance that's close, but he can't do it lap after lap.

That's why I've always felt that race pace, not qualifying pace, separates the good from the truly great. Bottas and Raikkonen may be within a tenth or two on Saturday, but they can't sustain it for 190 miles like their teammates can.

Fair enough but was it not Brazil were it was said that Red Bull sacrificed qualifying for a better race car?

I know sometimes on rear limited tracks were the Mercedes in particular has suffered with tyre overheating Hamilton has had his car dialled in with plenty of understeer to help in the race at the expense of qualifying, he was said to have done this in Hungary.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 12:35 am 
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This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:49 am 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:40 am 
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Kimi deserved P3. He had 4 DNF and still only 69pts behind Vettel. He could have easily had couple more podiums at least. I like Bottas and I should think he will beat Charles, and should be in top3 next year hopefully he can sort out his tyre wear problem. His face, hairstyle some people think he is old. But he is only 29 and very underrated IMO

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:11 am 
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Exediron wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.


Kimi was better this season no doubt, but this season has been Vettel's worst in his F1 career to date and Kimi was still nowhere close.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:22 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.


Kimi was better this season no doubt, but this season has been Vettel's worst in his F1 career to date and Kimi was still nowhere close.

Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:49 pm 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.


Kimi beat Valtteri by four points at the end of the season.

If Valtteri had not had the puncture on the way to winning the GP in Baku, Valtteri would have been third in the WDC ahead of Max and Kimi.

If Toto Wolff had not issued team orders in Sochi, Valtteri would have been third in the WDC ahead of Max and Kimi.

Valtteri did not drive very well in the last four races, and of course at this point those races loom large in everyone's memory. After Japan, Valtteri lead Kimi 207 to 196. Valtteri then finished fifth in the last four races.

The last half of the season was not very good for Valtteri but the point difference from 3rd to 5th was only four points this year.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:49 pm 
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greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

So if Bottas had beat Kimi by 4 points it would have been the other way around?

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:02 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.


Kimi was better this season no doubt, but this season has been Vettel's worst in his F1 career to date and Kimi was still nowhere close.

Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


His reliability problems happened whilst he was behind Vettel so I don't get how this factors in.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 5:39 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.


Kimi was better this season no doubt, but this season has been Vettel's worst in his F1 career to date and Kimi was still nowhere close.

Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


His reliability problems happened whilst he was behind Vettel so I don't get how this factors in.


Kimi lost to Vettel by 69 points but had 4 none fault DNFs to Vettels 0. If both had the same amount of DNFs it would have been close in points.

Vettels season was also poor in terms of errors rather than speed. I think in 21 races, Kimi was maybe quicker 3 times which shows you how bad Vettel was in terms of errors that a driver he is quicker than basicaly every weekend would/could have nearly matched him if they had equal reliability.

If Vettel had had 1 or 2 more DNFs than Kimi, Kimi likely would have beaten him in points.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:10 pm 
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Kimi and Vettel were evenly matched. Kimi has had few bad races and his mistakes in Q3 probably cost him. Strange strategy call for him was other disadvantage he had. Bottas was the same. Qualifying, strategy and bad luck than Hamilton. Team order in Russia was no unnecessary :thumbdown:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:25 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Kimi and Vettel were evenly matched. Kimi has had few bad races and his mistakes in Q3 probably cost him. Strange strategy call for him was other disadvantage he had. Bottas was the same. Qualifying, strategy and bad luck than Hamilton. Team order in Russia was no unnecessary :thumbdown:


They weren't evenly matched at all for me.

In terms of speed Vettel was significantly quicker in over half the races. Kimi was quicker in about 3 weekends and Vettel was slightly / marginally quicker in the rest.

Without either making errors, Vettel would end the season with 8-9 races wins, Kimi 1 race win, maybe 0. It was not close in terms of on track speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 6:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Kimi and Vettel were evenly matched. Kimi has had few bad races and his mistakes in Q3 probably cost him. Strange strategy call for him was other disadvantage he had. Bottas was the same. Qualifying, strategy and bad luck than Hamilton. Team order in Russia was no unnecessary :thumbdown:


They weren't evenly matched at all for me.

In terms of speed Vettel was significantly quicker in over half the races. Kimi was quicker in about 3 weekends and Vettel was slightly / marginally quicker in the rest.

Without either making errors, Vettel would end the season with 8-9 races wins, Kimi 1 race win, maybe 0. It was not close in terms of on track speed.


I think in overall performance they were fairly equal. Vettel as certainly faster though.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:18 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.


Kimi was better this season no doubt, but this season has been Vettel's worst in his F1 career to date and Kimi was still nowhere close.

Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


Kimi had mechanical failures at three races this year. Bahrain, Spain, & Abu Dhabi. During those three races Sebastian scored 55 points.

Sebastian had no mechanical failures.

Sebastian finished 69 points ahead of Kimi. So if you deduct those 55 points Sebastian beats him 265 to 251, or by 14 points.

That is a lot closer than the offical points.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
greatestF1mindever wrote:
This thread has lost its way. Kimi clearly was better than Bottas in 2018. Even the final points show that.

Shockingly enough - and this isn't something you'd usually expect to hear - Kimi was given more of a fair chance to fight Vettel at Ferrari. I think he was better this year, but the points don't necessarily tell the whole story.


Kimi was better this season no doubt, but this season has been Vettel's worst in his F1 career to date and Kimi was still nowhere close.

Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


Kimi had mechanical failures at three races this year. Bahrain, Spain, & Abu Dhabi. During those three races Sebastian scored 55 points.

Sebastian had no mechanical failures.

Sebastian finished 69 points ahead of Kimi. So if you deduct those 55 points Sebastian beats him 265 to 251, or by 14 points.

That is a lot closer than the offical points.

I don't think that you can give Kimi the points that Vettel scored as Vettel nominally tends to finish in front of Kimi, how close it was is more a product of the various mistakes that Vettel made rather than the performance of Kimi.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 12:11 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


Kimi had mechanical failures at three races this year. Bahrain, Spain, & Abu Dhabi. During those three races Sebastian scored 55 points.

Sebastian had no mechanical failures.

Sebastian finished 69 points ahead of Kimi. So if you deduct those 55 points Sebastian beats him 265 to 251, or by 14 points.

That is a lot closer than the offical points.

I don't think that you can give Kimi the points that Vettel scored as Vettel nominally tends to finish in front of Kimi, how close it was is more a product of the various mistakes that Vettel made rather than the performance of Kimi.


I am not giving Kimi points that Sebastian scored. I am simply eliminating the races where Kimi had mechanical failures. The result is from only races where neither had mechanical failures. I left in races where one or the other suffered collisions since those involve the driver.

Not a perfect metric but it does approximately equalize for the difference in car reliability.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:16 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:

His reliability problems happened whilst he was behind Vettel so I don't get how this factors in.


Kimi lost to Vettel by 69 points but had 4 none fault DNFs to Vettels 0. If both had the same amount of DNFs it would have been close in points.

Vettels season was also poor in terms of errors rather than speed. I think in 21 races, Kimi was maybe quicker 3 times which shows you how bad Vettel was in terms of errors that a driver he is quicker than basicaly every weekend would/could have nearly matched him if they had equal reliability.

If Vettel had had 1 or 2 more DNFs than Kimi, Kimi likely would have beaten him in points.


This season Kimi was only quicker than Vettel in one race which was Australia asides that all the other races it was actually due to Vettel's mistakes, or sensor failure.

It seems you are coflating matching him in points with actual race pace.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:25 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Not entirely fair to just look at points when you consider the fact that Vettel has had perfect reliability while Kimi has had multiple mechanical failures.


Kimi had mechanical failures at three races this year. Bahrain, Spain, & Abu Dhabi. During those three races Sebastian scored 55 points.

Sebastian had no mechanical failures.

Sebastian finished 69 points ahead of Kimi. So if you deduct those 55 points Sebastian beats him 265 to 251, or by 14 points.

That is a lot closer than the offical points.

I don't think that you can give Kimi the points that Vettel scored as Vettel nominally tends to finish in front of Kimi, how close it was is more a product of the various mistakes that Vettel made rather than the performance of Kimi.


I am not giving Kimi points that Sebastian scored. I am simply eliminating the races where Kimi had mechanical failures. The result is from only races where neither had mechanical failures. I left in races where one or the other suffered collisions since those involve the driver.

Not a perfect metric but it does approximately equalize for the difference in car reliability.


Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:31 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


I never said that Kimi was close to Vettel on race pace. I was pointing out that Kimi's results were not that far off Sebastian's when you normalized for mechanical failures. Kimi is a much more disciplined driver than Sebastian and doesn't put himself in the marginal positions that Sebastian does.

Kimi at times can put in laps that are as fast as Sebastian's best but he doesn't do them all race long. Vettel's average pace is certainly faster when the car is moving forward and not spinning to the back of the grid or into the barriers.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


I never said that Kimi was close to Vettel on race pace. I was pointing out that Kimi's results were not that far off Sebastian's when you normalized for mechanical failures. Kimi is a much more disciplined driver than Sebastian and doesn't put himself in the marginal positions that Sebastian does.

Kimi at times can put in laps that are as fast as Sebastian's best but he doesn't do them all race long. Vettel's average pace is certainly faster when the car is moving forward and not spinning to the back of the grid or into the barriers.


Every driver can pull out a fastest lap once in a while we were talking about race pace so what the hell has your argument been about?

Outside of having a dig at Vettel with your last paragraph!


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:26 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


Vettel was very lucky not to finish behind Kimi this season. Kimi also made mistakes and did not get best out of his car in many occasions. But he simply shrugs off without making fuss about it so most people do not know. In Germany Ferrari actually wanted to scarified Kimi race as usual so that he can pit and come in front of Hamilton to block him rest of the race. It was funny Vettel was complaining about losing downforce when Kimi was infront of him in Germany. Rather than overtaking with much fresher tyres he was complaining on radio and wanted Ferrari to enforce team orders. Isn't it same for Kimi and Bottas almost every race ? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:47 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


I never said that Kimi was close to Vettel on race pace. I was pointing out that Kimi's results were not that far off Sebastian's when you normalized for mechanical failures. Kimi is a much more disciplined driver than Sebastian and doesn't put himself in the marginal positions that Sebastian does.

Kimi at times can put in laps that are as fast as Sebastian's best but he doesn't do them all race long. Vettel's average pace is certainly faster when the car is moving forward and not spinning to the back of the grid or into the barriers.


Every driver can pull out a fastest lap once in a while we were talking about race pace so what the hell has your argument been about?

Outside of having a dig at Vettel with your last paragraph!


My point was that Kimi's results when normalized for mechanical failures were pretty close to Sebastian's. They were closer than they should have been given the fact that Sebastian has a better average race pace. They also indicate that while Sebastian has the ability to maintain a very quick pace for the whole race, Kimi does make up for quite a bit of that by not doing things that sabotage his own efforts like Sebastian does.

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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:54 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


Vettel was very lucky not to finish behind Kimi this season. Kimi also made mistakes and did not get best out of his car in many occasions. But he simply shrugs off without making fuss about it so most people do not know. In Germany Ferrari actually wanted to scarified Kimi race as usual so that he can pit and come in front of Hamilton to block him rest of the race. It was funny Vettel was complaining about losing downforce when Kimi was infront of him in Germany. Rather than overtaking with much fresher tyres he was complaining on radio and wanted Ferrari to enforce team orders. Isn't it same for Kimi and Bottas almost every race ? :lol:


Obviously you dont understand what you are talking about in that race in Germany Ferrari strategists were beyond foolish, had it been a Mercedes behind Kimi it would have made sense.

Also in this era of F1 we have seen how difficult it is overtake a driver with the same machinery irrespective of tyres.

Kimi made mistakes no doubt, but he still didn't have Vettel's race pace, so Kimi was lucky with Vettel's mistakes if not the thrashing would have been heavier than the end result.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 9:55 am 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


I never said that Kimi was close to Vettel on race pace. I was pointing out that Kimi's results were not that far off Sebastian's when you normalized for mechanical failures. Kimi is a much more disciplined driver than Sebastian and doesn't put himself in the marginal positions that Sebastian does.

Kimi at times can put in laps that are as fast as Sebastian's best but he doesn't do them all race long. Vettel's average pace is certainly faster when the car is moving forward and not spinning to the back of the grid or into the barriers.


Every driver can pull out a fastest lap once in a while we were talking about race pace so what the hell has your argument been about?

Outside of having a dig at Vettel with your last paragraph!


My point was that Kimi's results when normalized for mechanical failures were pretty close to Sebastian's. They were closer than they should have been given the fact that Sebastian has a better average race pace. They also indicate that while Sebastian has the ability to maintain a very quick pace for the whole race, Kimi does make up for quite a bit of that by not doing things that sabotage his own efforts like Sebastian does.


One season is not a trend, so you have a baseless argument going on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Bottas vs Raikkonen
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Lol.

The kind of warped logic used in arriving at certain conclusions is hilarious at best.

Vettel made his mistakes this season no one is arguing about that, but to actually argue that Kimi was close to Vettel in race pace has to be some serious reach.

In Germany Vettel after his stop came out just 3 seconds behind Kimi after his first stop thats a net 22 seconds ahead and we were not yet at half distance.


I never said that Kimi was close to Vettel on race pace. I was pointing out that Kimi's results were not that far off Sebastian's when you normalized for mechanical failures. Kimi is a much more disciplined driver than Sebastian and doesn't put himself in the marginal positions that Sebastian does.

Kimi at times can put in laps that are as fast as Sebastian's best but he doesn't do them all race long. Vettel's average pace is certainly faster when the car is moving forward and not spinning to the back of the grid or into the barriers.


Every driver can pull out a fastest lap once in a while we were talking about race pace so what the hell has your argument been about?

Outside of having a dig at Vettel with your last paragraph!


My point was that Kimi's results when normalized for mechanical failures were pretty close to Sebastian's. They were closer than they should have been given the fact that Sebastian has a better average race pace. They also indicate that while Sebastian has the ability to maintain a very quick pace for the whole race, Kimi does make up for quite a bit of that by not doing things that sabotage his own efforts like Sebastian does.


One season is not a trend, so you have a baseless argument going on here.


You are clearly more engaged in the "argument" than in a reasoned discussion. Have it your way.

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